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Topic CSSBB – Aveta Business Solutions – Any good?

CSSBB – Aveta Business Solutions – Any good?

Home Forums Old Forums General CSSBB – Aveta Business Solutions – Any good?

This topic contains 93 replies, has 1 voice, and was last updated by Profile photo of Stan Mikel Mikel 4 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #126229

    I’ve been looking through the various e-learning and certification courses for which program would best suit my budget, professional, and learning needs for obtaining CSSBB. I’ve already obtained CSSGB from Arizona State University – Mikel Harry’s discontinued or shifted SS certification.
    The course I’m currently considering is offered by Aveta Business Solutions – they say they’ve worked with many of the top companies in various verticals (DHL, Mercedes, Toyota, etc). Has anyone taken their course or know anything about other than the previous post almost 12 months ago?
    Please share your experience.
    Thank you.
    PJR

    #126230

    PJR,I have not heard of Aveta Business Solutions. It is difficult to keep track of all of the new vendors that enter the Six Sigma marketplace.As you know from your research, there are literally dozens and dozens of Six Sigma training vendors. Some may be good, but beware — there are a lot of charlatans out there. Here are some tips for performing “due diligence” with various potential vendors for Green Belt and Black Belt courses:1. ASK THE COMPANY FOR THEIR OWN SIX SIGMA PROJECTS — Approach any possible training vendor like you would approach a potential employee: ask lots of questions about their own experiences with Six Sigma. Ask the training vendor how the company applies Six Sigma to its own operations. A lot will tell you how the have helped OTHERS, but dig beyond that. Ask how their own company has utilized Six Sigma. They should be able to send you “storyboards” (summaries) of the Six Sigam projects they have worked on to improve their own company. If they can’t tell you, skip it and consider some other training company.2. REFERENCES — Ask for references from prior attendees, and call them. It sounds like Aveta has references — get names and numbers at these companies, and call them. And, ask the possible training companies about the “success rate” of their graduates — ask them how they define success, too!!! — these questions will tell you whether they actually keep in touch with people who have completed their course, and how they are applying the knowledge.3. PROJECTS — Ask whether the class requires completion of one or more projects prior to getting “certified”. Most courses do some testing, but only some require a Project. If they do NOT require at least one project (a REAL project, NOT a simulated project!!), skip on to the next training company.4. SUPPORT FROM A BB OR MBB — Ask them whether their company provides support from a BB or MBB AFTER the class, while you are trying to complete your BB or GB certification projects. If NOT, skip on to the next training company.If they DO provide that kind of support, dig in further: how is the support provided (in-person, online, on the phone, etc.), how often, etc.AND, ask about the credentials of the BB or MBB that would be helping you — when did they get certified, what projects have they completed, etc.
    Good hunting!Best regards,
    QualityColorado

    #126251

    PJR:Use the search function on this site with the keyword “Aveta” and you’ll find out a lot about the company. For example, portions of their website are cut-and-paste jobs on other peoples’ intellectual property.Caveat emptor – You get what you pay for.Cheers, BTDT

    #126256

    Hey the quote from the Cat guy is good. Trying to lead people to believe Cat is their customer.

    #126260

    Good  Boy

    #141187

    I have been seeking Six Sigma Cert. as well, I’m concerned the blogs prior have been discrediting AVETA. As in the blog guidelines no solicitation is authorized; however, each blog against AVETA has Villanova, BMG, Motorola, etc. offers for certification after comments. My question is this tell me why AVETA is a bad way to train for Six Sigma certification. As with resumes, projects listed by so-called Six Sigma and the many associations and societies may need proof that each project was completed and was successful as well as the many variety of ways to become certified. Once again, I have no opinion of AVETA but want to be certified to assist my company and my future career growth.    

    #147021

    Greetings,
     
    Just completed CSSBB from Aveta.  The 16 exams were not that difficult.  However, I found the project to take quite a bit of time and was rather difficult.  You will also have to find software you could use to help with the statistics if you cant do it in excel.  Nonetheless, the experience was rewarding.  I recommend trying to do your project with a real company.

    #147439

    Agreed. The online tests are designed so that you can follow the book through each chapter, then answer the questions online. The real value is in the RESOURCES that Aveta has online. For instance, a java enabled applet is available that has a very useful breakdown and description as to how Six Sigma methodologies can help your organization discover or add value through the reduction of variability in operations. The statistics is well covered, with excellent examples and a very useful breakdown as to how to EXACTLY use Minitab and Excel to complete a Six Sigma project. The final project for the Black Belt is also worthwhile, challenging and forces you to incorporate the various tools within the tool kit. I happen to have a background in Economics from a highly regarded public university (SUNY Albany) and an MPA degree as well, and feel that this course has succinctly combined all the descriptive and inferential statistics I’ve studied to have it all make sense in actual problem solving situations. So do I recommend Aveta? Yes. But you should be serious about your education, and should PRINT out all that is offered on the site, as you do not have access to it after one year. (You only have one year to complete the training btw). If you are very bright and do not have the mentality that requires the need to sit in a classroom, this is for you.

    #147717

    V,
    I am thinking of enrolling in the Aveta on-line CSSBB training program. Working full-time, 50+ hours a week, how much time did you put in each week to complete the Aveta CSSBB 16-exam + Project course? What was the total lenght of time from enrollmet to receiving your BB certification? 
    Does Aveta provide clear and consise guidance on the BB Project? Can you share what’s involved/expected in the project? Thanks for the feedback. Don

    #147731

    Very similar to Villanova
    They care only about money

    #147740

    Well, I’m in the middle of my CSSBB exams with AVETA at the moment – I signed up almost a year ago and due to various other more pressing things – getting married, moving house, changing job etc…I find myself sat here taking a week off work to get the exams done. Because I don’t have time to STUDY the book, I am sitting with the (open book) exams and getting an average of 91%, just flicking through and checking with the easy multi-choice questions. I am guessing the project will need a bit more of an effort but still within the realm of EASY if one can use a hypothetical project. Value for money from the course will only be determined by the increase in my marketability. I’m always sceptical that courses of this size can be delivered in a few days on-site, and am so far happy to have made use of the $/£ exchange rate and what I paid for this “course”. I wonder if certification can replace experience, by the end of tomorrow I will probably be “qualified SSBB” I’ve already managed to get my yellow and green belt in about 6 hours. 

    #147743

    Oh, I get it.  Because process improvement in the work place is so easy, it’s taught using a cookbook.  When you have a problem in the real world, simply open the book and look up the answer!  Unfortunately, as is often demonstrated on this forum, simply recognizing the right question is sometimes difficult. 
    It’s no wonder that our LSS industry is often maligned.  There has to be a better way to weed out weaklings who are “certified” black belts. 

    #147747

    just thought I would post my two cents since I originally got my BB cert through Aveta, (so they have been around for a while).  I would caution anyone looking for certification that all training/education institutions are ultimately about the money.  So, comments to this point should seem self-evident.  I have taken courses through Aveta and Villanova as well as have gone through two different “company” trainings in the automotive and aviation industries.  IMO, here’s what it all boils down to:  if you just want the certification to improve your marketability, I don’t know that it really matters.  If this is the case, stop reading here, and take whatever course/training pleases you. The really sarcastic part of me is thinking, “you could just read a book and print yourself a certificate.”
    Now, let’s say you actually want to use this knowledge to drive improvements and change in your company or industry.  Doing what you will be learning is infinitely more important and challenging than getting a certificate.  The projects are “tough” because they require real work, and probably change.  I have likely purchased and read upwards of 20 different books related to SS/Lean methodologies to help me get through certain projects.  ie.  you’re going to have to do a few, if not many DOE’s, before you start to really understand how to best implement them, or use the results.  You MUST do a REAL project.  Whether this requires a company/career change or simply getting company approval, my thoughts are that simulation will get you nothing in terms of experience in implementing SS or driving projects.  And finally, understand that this is probably going to be a serious time commitment, both weekly and annually.  Unless your job title is “SSBB”, most times management and practitioners underestimate the amount of time required to do a project well.  I suppose you could get lucky and find some low-hanging fruit, easy projects, that don’t require much data mining, prepping, analysis, etc., but you will eventually run into more challenging work. 
    I guess, to sum it up, you will get out of it what you put into it (so will the companies you work with), so don’t worry too much about where you learn it from…just know it’ll be a serious commitment.  My final comment, whether it be politically correct or not, is that it’s too bad we can’t differentiate between “academic BB” and “practicing BB” — but then again that is what reference checks are all about, and shame on companies who don’t thoroughly do them and applicants who take too much liberty with their claims.  On that note, if I had to rate my training, I would give 20% of the credit to the academic programs/books and 80% to my mentoring MBBs.  All my certifications are packed away in the closet of my home office (whether academic or company) — that’s about how useful they are.
    once again…just my rambling two cents.  Have a great day folks!

    #147751

    Now that I know what goes into an Aveta Black Belt, I would never hire one.  Being a certified Black Belt is about so much more than taking an open book exam after reading a book and creating a theoretical project.  The hard part of being a BB is about working with people (who oftentimes are opposed to a project) and winning them over to a new and better way of doing things.  I may as well get a degree in brain surgery by watching a few shows on television and taking an open-book exam about the brain and then describing a ‘theoretical’ lobotomy.  On second thought, it might be easier to start with the lobotomy.
    The problem with an “Easy” program is that you get what you pay for.  Think about any professional specialist you go to for services–whether a doctor, attorney, auto mechanic, home builder, parachute-packer, etc.  Do you want someone who took the easiest route to their certification (including theoretical “experience”), or someone who was held to a high standard and has actually done the work you are hiring them to do?
    I could go on.
    Best regards,
    GP

    #147755

    to be fair:
    They were very supportive and an MBB responded to any questions I had throughout the training.  But let’s not just tag Aveta here…in the interest of fair, if the candidate did a real project (which I believe they recommmend) then the training is probably not much different than most online/two week courses.  I’ve seen candidates go through ASQs four week training, and the curriculum is not much different.
    The differentiator is about doing real projects and continuing to attack company deficiencies using the LSS approach and tools.  I don’t think I would hire anyone in a BB role who has just completed certification and one/two projects.  But I think many of these people just want to put it on there resume in hopes that it gets them a better position, but not one that actually requires much SS work (besides the typical mngmt propaganda about continuous improvement).  You should be very wary that putting BB on your list of credentials implies you can teach and mentor, at least to some degree.  This is where the rubber might hit the road.
    But I don’t think this is an Aveta epidemic.  It’s a business epidemic.  Even companies who want to say they have 5000 certified GBs, it doesn’t mean they all completed rigorous projects, but it’s a great promotional tool for very competitive industries.

    #147756

    I found the Aveta Course very effective. I got my Six Sigma Black Belt from them.  The book was through. Since I have just taken the lean six sigma (lean Sensei from Villanova ) I cannot say the same.  The cousre was well done but the exam was a miserable experience.  I have been doing lean and six sigma type work for years.  The exam did not focus ont he team effort or any of the things that really bring sucess to an organization. I cannot say that  I will ever try that method again.  500 hours of study , major expense and nothing to show for it except to be told I should maybe study the materials more.  Sorry Villianova you have definately lost a customer.  Maybe they should read their own literature. The VOC. Mine was not listened to or respectd.

    #147760

    surfsigma 16 posted a highly appropriate explanation. However, please realize one is rarely ever an effective prationer of any new skill set coming right out of training. It takes application to be good at anything.
    Hey, how good were we at engineering the day of our commencement exercises? I can tell you I knew nothing…except that I had my own apartment and a new GTO. I then “learned” to be an engineer over the next few years…some might say never.
    So, quit knocking “the other guy’s school”. If the BB/GB/whatever course contains all the proper subject content and if you apply yourself to learning it…then you have positioned yourself to really begin learning it…through application.
    PS: Six Sigma certification is a joke. There is no such thing.

    #147778

    I appreciate everyone’s response on Aveta and other SS Certification Programs. I agree, Certification (Training) is totally not a stand alone criteria. The application (experience) that follws…putting the training to work, is what will make the difference. Leading a team and working out conflict and project resistence isn’t going to be learned from a book…it’s going to take leading many teams and working on many real organizational projects over years that will make the difference. Learning from past failures is the strongest teacher as well. I commend anyone who is wanting to take classes or read books on Six Sigma and then applying their new knowledge on improving the organization they work for. Thanks again to all the professionals for sharing their SS perspectives. Keep the passion. Again, much appreciated. Don 

    #147780

    Isn’t Aveta’s “course” really just a thin wrapper of online chat and quizzes?  Why don’t you just buy the textbook alone and save the premium?  That would be like running a lean six sigma program on your own training. 

    #150278

    I received my BB from Aveta in Jan 2008, and it took just over one year to complete on-line. I looked into Villinova and it was exponentially more expensive, for the same type of instruction format. The classes are no different than on-line college degrees. You get out of it what you put into it. The required text is fantastic.

    #151303

    Which textbook does Averta require?

    #152540

    In fairness, I took one of their courses and they did provide me with help whenever I had questions.  Some of us have a hard time with stats and need a little help… and everywhere else was charging alot.  Dont get me wrong… I am sure there are many better places to go.  But honestly (and correct me if im wrong), but isnt the expensive part of training normally the “support”??
    For example, one of the sites I looked at said “Master Black Belt Consulting is $100/hour with a half hour minimum” and another said “Six Sigma Master Black Belt Coach Personal Master Black Belt Coach (6 Months) $3,000″.
    It seemed like everywhere was either really expensive or was less expensive and charged extra for support.
    I paid less for my certification then most places and was able to receive “support” for free.  Again, I am not saying there the best… but (at least in my opinion) I thought it was well worth it.  Besides, it helped get me my new job without any problems :)

    #153734

    Hi Don,Sorry for the late reply.
    The 16 exams are to make sure that you’ve read the text book. But the book is EXCELLENT. The exams should really take you no more than perhaps 30 minutes each. You can also just follow the exam questions as you read the book but I suggest you really read and try to understand the chapters before taking the exam. The BB Project can take much time. You do need a clear, concise project with parameters which addresses the DMAIC, DMADV, DFSS. This is the best part of the course and does an excellent job of applying what you’ve learned to a real problem. They give you a total of one year to do this all in. I buckled down and finished the project in a total of about 30 hours. If you dedicate yourself you can finish this in 4 months. Aveta does give clear and concise guidance and you can email them at any time for further guidance. Let me know if you have further questions. I’ll check back.

    #154279

    I have been doing  Six Sigma and Lean projects for years, but for small companies. So I decided to get my BB certification through Aveta. I went through the text and used a real life project for submission. Interestingly, a colleague of mine in another state received his certification through Villanova. He used the same book and also submitted an actual project. When we compared course work and notes, the two programs were not much different.

    #154292

    So you are saying both programs are equally bad?

    #154466
    Profile photo of David Mangello
    David Mangello
    Participant
    Reputation - 0
    Rank - Aluminum

    I think what he is saying is that… how many different ways can you learn something??? Come on… it’s not like we are talking about courses to cure cancer. If I learner to do algebra at a public school and you learned at a private school… guess what… we still both know how to do algebra.I think everyone can agree that neither are a “diploma mill”. Both have a curriculum that covers everything that a black belt six sigma course would.It sounds more babbling about “my schools is better than yours”… but at the end of the day everyone learned their algebra.(By the way… I know someone that got an MBA from Harvard and I wouldn’t trust him to sharpen my pencil).David

    #154467

    David Mangello,
    Algebra is well defined. Six Sigma, in terms of what material should be taught, is not well defined. Your comparison falls apart there.
    We have books that teach a non-math approach to Six Sigma and we have consulting companies that teach virtually the same thing. We have cleaned up the mess they have made. SS is not generic as much as some would like to believe it to be.
    In terms of you comment about the MBA from Harvard, if you are a reader check out the book called “Outliers.” It has subtitles that talk about success factors but there is a lot of information about IQ, environment and timing as it relates to how successful people are. I have taught a couple classes recently with a Professor Emeritus from Harvard and you won’t find many that are better educated and intelligent.
    Just my opinion.

    #154742

    I have signed in for six sigma training with six
    sixsigmaonline.orgThey only provide some poor Training videos and
    thats it! My employer has signed up for online
    training provider Skillsoft.
    This provider is not a six sigma specialist.
    However, they have hired six sigma specialists to
    create material which is much better than at aveta:
    They offer:
    – presentations
    – case studies
    – role plays
    – real questions (not just questions you can answer
    from a textbook)
    The whole thing with aveta is just about
    certification, but not about acquirering skills.
    To certify for green belt, you have to
    – answer about 16 online quizzes. Questions can be
    answered from the textbook. You don’t even have to
    understand the content – it is easy to find the
    right spot in the text.to certify for black belt, you have to turn in an
    project case. That’s it. You better just buy the textbook “Six sigma
    handbook” by Pyzdek and save the money for
    certification.That kind of certification is a poor reference on a
    CV.Damn that I have spend so much money on that!

    #154750

    Emanuel:I’m sorry to hear about your experience with Aveta. I had another look at their website and found that large chunks of the legal section of their website is now copied from a different website than before. Compare (http://www.altova.com/order_aotterms.html with http://www.sixsigmaonline.org/tos.html)Cheers, AlastairFor on-line training, I have heard good things about MoreSteam.com

    #154751

    Emanuel,
    Sorry to hear about your problems. I agree with BTDT on the Moresteam recomendation. They have solid material and understand how to work with people in terms of online training. I you have wasted money up to this point you should probably consider these guys because they have a good reputation and have been around a long time.
    If you call tomorrow ask for Chris Paret. It is his birthday maybe he will make you a deal.
    Just my opinion.

    #154764

    If you really sign up with arveta, choose at least
    the payment plan with paypal.You might be upset with the product, and then you
    can at least cancel the subscription.You just loose 170 USD istead of a 1000 bucks for
    the black belt….

    #154765

    sixsigmaonline.org just tests greenbelts on the
    content of the book “the six sigma handbook” by
    Thomas Pyzdek. Example questions:exam I
    Q 1: The DMAIC improvement model is an acronym for:
    answer: table 1.1 p. 4 exam II
    Q 16: Dashboards for scale data:
    answer: p. 81, para. 4 (Headline “Dashboards”)exam II
    Q 20: A popular method for developing requirements
    and setting goals is called:
    answer: p. 91, para. 5 (Headline “Benchmarking”)
    “Benchmarking is a popular method for developing
    requirements and setting goals”
    You do not need comprehension to pass these exams.
    All you need to do is to find the references in the
    book. That’s it!

    #155539

    OK, so here’s my take as I’ve just finished the Aveta Six Sigma Green Belt and Lean DFSS certification programs. First of all, the book they require you to buy is terrific- basically the Six Sigma bible. The resources provided in the course are also pretty decent- videos on project management, explanation of statistics, sample software, etc. Now, the key is, you get a reading assignment, you READ and you take an exam. If you really want to get something out of your $400, then you take the quiz once closed book and if you don’t get top marks, study again, retake. Indeed, there is no online course that’s closed book or can factor out cheating. In fact, even the ASQ green belt “exam” is open book. Also, there are indeed expensive courses where you watch more video- but really, if you want that, just have your partner read to you in bed or something. The only more graphically oriented course at this price range is Acuity Institute– honestly, I took their Kaizen course and didn’t like it- I zoned out during the videos and the simulation turned out to be just a bunch of templates. That said, I feel that aveta business solutions is a good source for green belt but NOT black belt. I mean, if you really understand six sigma, you’ll know that part of the six sigma process is training your own people. So really, a black belt only exists within the organization that trains it for the six sigma event. The same goes for green belts. So instead of looking silly on a resume, just get a green belt with additional lean and dfss, keep on reading and learning, and say you’ve been trained as such. Anyone who understands six sigma will appreciate such modesty and self-determination and the company will train you internally anyway to meet standards. In addition, as a real black belt trainee, you’ll probably be working on a REAL project in parallel, and THAT is what matters in the long run.Honestly, with the money you save, you can get a more respected credential in project management- such as a PMP, which can be achieved for around $600 total- and is a pretty hard-ass exam taken at your local Prometric testing center.

    #155548

    And your frame of reference? i.e. what do you know about any other
    program?References with a single data point don’t carry much weight.

    #155565

    My frame of reference is that I’ve taken courses from both Acuity and Aveta, AND have seen the system that groups such as Villanova use for their certification. And none are them are much different except for paper versus internet delivery. But that’s beside the point as I don’t think a person can be web trained as a black belt- only as a green belt. My point is that if your current organization doesn’t offer training while working on a project, it really doesn’t really matter where you get certified as long as you understand the material and a prospective employer sees that you are driven to understanding six sigma. An organization applying six sigma will put you in training anyway. So better to get trained as a green belt without breaking the bank and then go for something more standardized, such as your PMP. Or you know, you can even go nuts and get a real degree like an MBA! Imagine that!!! I mean, what’s the sense of personally throwing down thousands of dollars for crazy expensive programs that basically teach the same material. Its Ghant charts and statistics, not rocket science!

    #155592

    Chunks of the legal section were the same as other websites…I was just able to do the same thing with full paragraphs from this website’s legal section (actually more than a dozen came up). I think you could do that with just about any website’s TOS.

    #155699

    I am not so sure how good of advice that is. I did not see anywhere on their site that said “cancel anytime at no further obligation” (its not like we are talking about a magazine subscription). Just b/c they seem to go through Paypal doesn’t mean that will not come after you for the rest of the money. You don’t need to sign a contract to be sent to collections anymore… all it takes is the couple of mouse clicks ;)You could technically do a chargeback on a credit card for ANY training provider.

    #155708

    Well, there’s companies out there, they only listen
    to their customer as long as there is a payment
    open.
    How do you say again in the US?
    “Possession is 90% of the law”

    #155711

    If all of the content is in a textbook, why not just buy a textbook and save the extra $?  As for the certification process, they don’t even require a live project (for BB).  Here’s a direct quote from their webiste:

    “The final project for our Black Belt Program is a written business plan that utilizes the Six Sigma method to reflect a cost benefit. The written business plan is a review of your comprehension of the material and your understanding of project implementation. You are not required to complete the project in a “live” business environment (i.e. it can be hypothetically based). Additionally, this project is not required for Yellow Belt, Green Belt, or Lean/DFSS Certification.

    How is this possibly a credible offering?  Sounds like someone just trying to capitalize on the demand for cheap and easy “certifications”.   Would anyone on this forum really hire a so-called certified BB who had never led a real project?!  IMHO, this kind of nonesense threatens the whole profession.

    #155712

    Harold, I agree with your concern over a “weak” or “inappropriate” certification. However, lacking a central body with specific criteria for certification – all certifications are suspect.
    Please don’t tell me that if a person holds a “certification” from any one of the 20+ boutique SS training firms one should say “Oh, this person knows his stuff.”
    Of course not, they must be interviewed. This certification topic is bogus, bogus, bogus – until we agree to universal standards.
    That having been said I expect to see no more talk about it.

    #155713

    HaroldFirst of all, the black belt DOES require a final project at Aveta. If you want a business plan that is any more live, than you actually have to be working AT a company where you are receiving six sigma training WHILE working on a project.However, yes, the green belt and yellow belt training, which I participated in, does not. This is similar to most other green belt training programs where one learns the mechanics of six sigma.Secondly, why does anyone take a class in anything? I mean really, how is it different from sitting in a conference room doodling while someone drones on about six sigma? Or taking a $3000 course where someone is just reading a script and slides pop up on the screen? Or taking an open book test at an ASQ conference.Thirdly, I don’t believe that any website can train a black belt. Indeed, by its nature, a black belt is trained BY the organization the person works for.
    Hence if you check my previous postings, I mention that it is best to get your green belt training, keep reading, and be modest on any resume/interview. Thus, a potential employer will see that you’ve taken an initiative to learn six sigma, sees that your smart enough to know not to call yourself a black belt based on a learning exercise and one or two projects, and will enroll you in their own six sigma program once hired (after all, training is an essential component of six sigma implementation).Fourthly, web delivery like this is the norm for most companies. I have a friend working for a large bank who took a similar type of course online.Finally, this is just a business strategy. If you’re looking for real credentials then get something done in your company or get your PMP or even MBA and stop hoping that a belt in project karate will catapult your career.

    #155715

    LesI totally agree with you. The best that any class can do for your resume it show an employer that you’ve at least taken an initiative to learn. The idea that a website or weekend course can turn a person into a black belt is just plain silly.

    #155716

    Thanks Mark, however I believe it goes beyond online or weekend course.
    To think a person who sits through 20 to 25 days of training and does a “learning project” is a certified BB is silly as well. What they have done is gotten exposure to a multitude of tools /processes to be used in analysis of processes. It will take time and a variety of situations for them to be practicing, competent BB’s.
    Same with most any form of education – there is no way any of us were functioning engineers when we left college. We knew how to spell it, hopefully, understood concepts and knew where to look for info. We had to do – to be. Same with SS.

    #155717

    Mark,
    Yes, I agree that Aveta does require a project, but you are missing my point: for those who can’t do a REAL project, a simulated “PRETEND” project is provided.  In my opinion, we should call out organizations doing this kind of schlocky stuff just to make a buck.  There are unsuspecting people who will fall for this, thinking that a “certification”from such a group has value.  It doesn’t, and folks like this should be called out.  My 2 cents.

    #155718

    And what do you think of the BB’s that go into consulting almost
    immediately.The consulting field is full of them.

    #155719

    Les,
    “Same with most any form of education – there is no way any of us were functioning engineers when we left college. We knew how to spell it, hopefully, understood concepts and knew where to look for info. We had to do – to be. Same with SS.”
    But people called you an engineer, you called yourself an engineer, people hired you as an engineer, you applied for jobs as an engineer. Discrimination in level of competance is something you ascertain in some other form than a third party certification. It isn’t indigenous to Six Sigma or even engineering. Are all doctors equal? Are all CPA’s equal? Are all ISO certifications equal?
    If you are counting on a certification, degree, or whatever third party certification someone/something has then you are abdicating your responsibility to your organization to exercise die diligence. Regardless of whatever the process there will be varying degrees of competance.
    “That having been said I expect to hear no more talk about it.”
    Just my opinion.

    #155720

    Guess I was a bit presumptive with the “That’s all I expect….” LOL.
    There’s merit to what you’re saying Mike, certainly. And as I said in another post – “interview the person”.
    The only thing an industry certification process would do is to establish minimums. If certified by XYZ Asso. one has a baseline level of knowledge, experience, whatever. Competency, capability, ingenuity, personality, etc. are all well beyond that and must be assessed by other means- as you said.
    PS: Gary, re: consulting field. You know the old saying “Those that can – do, those that can’t teach.” Applies to consulting also.

    #155721

    Agreed Harold.
    So here’s a call-out. Found an ad in a discussion group on LinkedIn the other day – “Six Sigma Certification for $49.99.” It was The 6 Sigma Way out of Plano, Texas. Went to their site (of the same name). They do classroom and online courses that are done through building blocks – white, yellow, green, brown, black. Appeared very weak, no course outlines and no principals of the firm were identified on the site. That being the case I followed the link to the poster’s profile and found no person was identified in the profile.
    LinkedIn or the discussion monitor pulled the discussion group post. Wierd. Lot’s of them out there.

    #155722

    HaroldI totally agree with you. It is one thing to express that you understand the tools and techniques applied to a project (i.e. a yellow or green belt). It is another to do a fill-in-the-blank exercise, provided by some programs, and claim to have a command of project management (i.e. black belt). That said, training providers such as Aveta, Pyzdek, etc leave it to the trainee to come up with a project (no instant template provided) and then offer black belt guidance/advice in its design. Whether or not one chooses fictional project or a scenario at their workplace is up to the trainee. This isn’t exactly unprecedented as standard business school training involves case studies that are based on simulation and hypothetical data. Indeed, even qualifying exams in the sciences are often based on hypothetical data. But unlike a degree program, I really think that one can only call oneself a black belt once they’ve run several projects. As such, you are totally correct, one should be careful of being so boastful if they’ve hardly carried out a project beyond even the best, single, mentored black belt project. Perhaps the Project Management Institute will take this up someday. They seem geared to standardized certification as their PMP credential is a rather rigorous process and they already have a relationship with a prometric testing center.

    #155723

    But some companies (like mine) do not pay for employee’s training and would never allow “their” data to be handed over to a third party for a project. A hypothetical project allows many people to “substitute” data. But I would also agree that completing a 100% hypothetical project would not be nearly as rewarding. But I suppose a hypothetical project is better than places like expertrating, acuity, etc. that do not even require ANY project.I agree with Mark 100%. Except even an MBA doesn’t mean that much anymore. Most college’s have fast-track MBA programs. Having an MBA (or any piece of paper) doesn’t mean anything other then they have “some” knowledge. If you are looking for someone that has mastered their field of study (or even any good at it)… you better find someone with EXPERIENCE. Certifications, degrees, etc. are all for dividing the resume pile. After the eligible applicant pile is made… only experience matters. Employers want people that are hard-working and are motivated.After it is all said and done… If I had to choose between:1. ASQ Black Belt with 1 years experience, MBA
    2. Aveta Black Belt with 10 years experience, MBA
    3. Aveta Black Belt with 1 years experience, Phd
    4. BMG Black Belt with 4 years experience, BachelorsChange the numbers all you want (and this is just a really basic example)… just like Matt said… you are just adding to your skillset. I don’t care what kind of piece of paper you have… if you do not have years of experience… the new employer is taking a chance on you.Sure, any employer would obviously want someone with 20 years experience, PMP, ASQ CSSBB, Phd… but it doesnt mean that they want to pay for it ;)When it is all said and done… MOST PEOPLE (obviously nobody here [wink]) are just trying to beat the competition for the job. And alot of times i bet it doesnt come down to the “where” you got your BB (it comes down to the 35 other things on the resume).I personally would choose an Aveta SSBB with lots of experience over someone with an ASQ SSBB that had very little. Remember, your college degree is typically what got you in the door in the first place… the rest of your career is from what you did from there.Strangely, I love economics… I love to read about all the time. In fact, I seem to know much more than the people I know that went to school for it (but I have NO piece of paper for it). Although I could convince an employer of my knowledge in an interview… I would probably never get my resume through HR in that “first phase”.Many people just want their foot in the door guys. If you have experience and are hard working, I’m sure your job is safe :)Heck, im happy just to be working.

    #155724
    Profile photo of Chad Taylor
    Taylor
    Participant
    Reputation - 0
    Rank - Aluminum

    From

    #155750

    Les,WE have been moaning about a lack of a central certifying body for years and that it will be the solution to all the variation in Black Belts. It isn’t going to happen. There is nothing more time consuming and the value is questionable that what a doctor has to go through in the US to get licensed to practice. Are doctors homogeneous? Are attorneys? Are CPA’s?It would seem that a central body for certification turns into its own business and ends up with its own politics and homogeneity isn’t the outcome.Just my opinion.

    #155754

    Agreed. But one correction in what I said. I didn’t say it would create or establish homgenity. I said it would create a minimum threshold of competency. Or, actually competency may not be the correct word…better said, a minimum threshold of knowledge.
    One’s ability to accomplish something with that knowledge is an entirely different topic.

    #155756

    There was a central body that certified Quality Engineers and we all know what a special group that was. Now we have the same group putting their stamp on Black Belts and we are now complaining about the quality od Black Belts. It seems when ASQ gets involved the quality goes down.

    #158853

    I got my BB certification from Aveta.  My reasoning was to get the certification at a reasonable cost and become more marketable (I am out of a job right now).  I am getting 2x more hits off my resume with the six sigma verbiage on there.  As you complete coursework towards the BB cert., you can apply for the yellow, green and DFSS/Lean certs along the way.  It took me 10 weeks to complete the coursework, submit a project and get it approved.  I read 2-3 chapters per week.  I spent 40+ hours on my project.  Although, the real project had been completed, I used the DMAIC principles along with actual project costs, ROI, mfg. statistics and other data acquired during the actual 2 year project to write up the BB project report.  The project report was 33 pages long.
    The course is more self learning through +700 pages of book text and you can use the book while taking the test.  You can cheat, not read, and try to find the answers or you can read the text and then take the test.  Do you want to cheat yourself or not?  If you have not had any statistics in graduate or undergraduate school, this course is not for you.  You must understand statistics or you will be lost.  If you took stats five years ago and have not used them since, this course is not for you.  Buy the book for $60 and see if you understand the stat concepts.  If not, at least you will have an awesome reference.
    I cannot compare it to any other programs except my Master’s in Operations Management coursework.  The statistics in the Master’s is certainly more rigorous, but the SS coursework is more applied.  The Aveta textbook is excellent, by the way.  It is an excellent resource for the types of statistical analysis methods, measuring, analysis and control methods.
    There is no doubt that the certification is nothing more than that.  You must have experience in the field to be good at implementing the principles – just like any coursework or degree.  If you read the text, make an outline and then take the tests, you will get a lot out of the course.  If you have no practical experience with mfg, healthcare or IT then the certification will not transform your knowledge w/o some real-time experience.  However, if you are an experience professional, with experience managing good sized projects, then the course work is excellent prep for you to use the DMAIC principals on your next project.
    I asked this question on this board 3+ months ago, so my response is as if I were writing to myself 3 months ago; what would I want to know about the program.

    #158855

    This answer is a bit too slick to be real. I think it is written by Aveta employee.

    #158863

    What about Villanova ?

    #158872
    Profile photo of Chris Rogers
    Chris Rogers
    Participant
    Reputation - 0
    Rank - Aluminum

    Stan,
    Here is a link to my original post. 

    http://www.isixsigma.com/forum/showmessage.asp?messageID=150362

    #158873

    Yeah, and the training isn’t from you so how could it possibly be any good?

    #158874

    I’ll stand by my answer. Your answer is much too slick – sounds like
    marketing hype. And much slicker and articulate than your first.You wouldn’t be the first to pull such a thing.

    #158875

    Chris,I don’t do training and haven’t for years. Hard to compare it to
    something that does not exist.

    #158886

    Chris II,
    What an enlightened response. That has been such a valuable contribution to the Discussion Forum I am sure you have touch people deeply and changed their lives forever. We are sitting on the edge of our seats waiting breathlessly for more of your wisdom.

    #158887

    Chris,
    This is what is called checking for understanding and just possibly a reality check for you. You are responding to a post you made 3 months ago but you are not responding to it in the same string where you posted 3 months ago. Your original post certainly Wurlitzer Prize winning writing. Then you list every feature of the program, pitch the statistics book as a great reference even for people who are too stupid to understand the course; as if the world needs one more statistics book or one more Six Sigma book unless you want narcolepsy to become an world wide epidemic. After all this non-sales pitch you just happen to mention the double hit rate on your CV which could allow someone to believe you don’t have a job yet. Just as a side comment the reason a person sends out a CV is to secure a job, not so you can do a time series analysis on the hit rate. We are assuming you did cover the time series analysis in your 10 weeks of course work, reading 2-3 chapters per week, a project that took 40+ hours and a project report that was 33 pages long. Please tell me you just read that that even you understand how contrived that sounds.
    It is difficult to undertand the common belief that a Six Sigma project  must take six months but it is almost as unbelievable that you did one in 40 hours unless it was a very large + or was in reality a just do it type project.
    It is truly difficult to understand why anyone would believe you are pitching these guys. There seems to be a lot of posts on this site where people do all the schizophrenic things that you are doing. You claim you answered your own post! They have meds for that type of behavior.
    You are a sales person pure and simple. The worst part is you think people are too stupid to understand that. It also seems to be a little fortuitous that this post goes up after A_eta took so much poor publicity on here a couple weeks ago. It should actually cause people to be more cautious of A_eta since they obviously feel they need to spin this after they took such a beating.
    What an odd coincidence.
     

    #158929

    Why after winning the award you did in Florida do you no longer post under your real name? Something fishy here.

    #158940

    Out of a job, just got certified and you know I won the best blogger
    award in Miami.Something truly is fishy here.

    #158941

    Holy cow!
    First, I replied to a different post regarding Aveta’s program and referenced a completely different post that I made 3+ months ago; let us get that straightened out first.  In addition, I log all the resumes I submit in a simple Excel file.  It is easy to see a 2x change in # of responses before starting the SS program and after.  When I started the program, I added verbiage to my resume reflecting as much.  You might need a time series analysis to figure that out, but I simply counted the entries.
    I realize my reference to the statistics required in the Aveta program and then my endorsement of Pyzedec’s book might seem confusing; it certainly was to you Annon.  I meant to suggest that people purchase the book and peruse the subject matter before purchasing the course.  That way, they would know if the statistics were too much for them to digest while learning on their own.  I think it is reasonable to believe that those folks interested in a SS program w/o a statistics background do not have statistics or SS books.
    Second, I do not have an engineering or operations job.  I only secured a Kelly services job that I will start on 4/1/09.  It is only slightly better than unemployment benefits, but at least I get out of the house.  If you or anyone think I am polished, a great salesperson or have potential in their company, please let me know because I desperately need a job and am willing to relocate.  Let me know how I can contact you.
    Third, if you carefully read my description of the project generation and coursework you would see my project was based on an actual 2-year project.  I used all the data collected to write the SS BB cert report.  Unbelievably, one can make process improvements or purchase equipment that will save a lot of money w/o using the exact SS methodologies.
    Finally, I did not mean to pitch Aveta, only relate my experiences and the required coursework.  I had not been on this board in a couple of months and only found the current post/thread as I was surfing for an online PMP program.  I had no idea there was a big deal about Aveta before my posting. 
    I am a man, looking for a job and took the Aveta course to make myself more marketable.  It is that simple; too bad if you do not believe me.

    #158947

    What are the certification requirements for Six Sigma Certification?Certification Requirements are as follows:Each student has 1 year to complete his/her courseIf using a Payment Plan, the full balance must be paid before
    certification occurs.For certification you must meet the following requirements:Black Belt: Successful passing of 16 online exams with a 70% or
    higher & satisfactory completion of a final Black Belt Project.Master Black Belt: Successful completion of our Black Belt Program
    (90% minimum exam scores) & submission of 2 additional Black
    Belt Projects.The final project for our Black Belt Program is a written business
    plan that utilizes the Six Sigma method to reflect a cost benefit.
    The written business plan is a review of your comprehension of the
    material and your understanding of project implementation. You
    are not required to complete the project in a “live” business
    environment (i.e. it can be hypothetically based). Additionally, this
    project is not required for Yellow Belt, Green Belt, or Lean/DFSS
    Certification.Hey Chris do two more hypothetical projects and you can be a MBB.

    #158949

    Great…Another cert mill

    #158957

    Yep, just got rid of Robert (alive and selling over on Linkedin BTW) and
    now we have Chris.

    #158963

    Yes I am doing well, thank you.
    While I was on LinkedIn I noticed you not only use Stan as an alias here but you’ve gone to the extent of creating a fake Stan profile on LinkedIn (as well as having posted your real identity in another profile). My goodness, who would go to those lengths to establish/validate an alias? You  might want to see someone about that.

    #158965

    Chris,
    You appear to be confused. Try again.

    #158966

    Annon,
    The double n is me not you. Get another name.

    #158973

    Hey Chris,
    I have been reading all these discussion threads because I too wish to pursue a Six Sigma Green Belt online course from Aveta (or other good resource).My case:
    1. I am a recent grad with MS in Industrial Engineering.
    2. I graduated 3 months back. No interview call yet. So unemployed.
    3. I have 4 years of work ex in manufacturing before doing MS. But that is not fetching me any calls.
    4. I read lot of job descriptions now simply mentioning “Six Sigma Green Belt preferred” or “knowledge in Lean, Six Sigma”. I have to skip those openings because I don’t have knowledge.
    5. So now, just to make the recruiters pay attention to my resume, may it be just because of the word SIX SIGMA, I wish to do an online course in it. So that, I can put it on resume and get more attention.
    6. I am passionate about process improvement, lean, continuous improvement. But I want to develop real time expertise by work, not by certification. However, right now I need job to gain that expertise later :)So, can you or anyone here suggest if I go for Green Belt certificate from Aveta for my purpose of:
    1. Cheapest program (I am concerned about it because Villanova asked $2000 and Kaplan asked $2500 for SSGB) yet very good for basic understanding of Six Sigma methodology
    2. Plus point on resume that gets me recruiter’s attention at least (winning their interest will be handled by my work ex and academics).Please suggest.
    Thanks.

    #158974

    Abby,If you have a MS in IE and paid attention, you should have all the
    tools, you just need to understand the roadmap and get some
    experience (which you will not get with any of the on-line stuff).

    #158976

    Abby,As soon as I put, “Pursuing Six Sigma Black Belt certification” in my resume, the phone started ringing. As I completed the coursework and qualified for Yellow, Green and DFSS/Lean manufacturing certifications, I added that too. During the phone and in-person interviews with recruiters and employers, they never asked where I was getting the certification. I told them I was getting it online, and they said nothing else. There is no national accreditation for SS, so the value of the certification by itself is a little nebulous. Granted if you received a certification from GE, Motorola or large university, it would be more impressive but very few of the employment postings ask for that. I will say that I have seen some job postings that ask for ASQ SS certifications, but that has been very rare. In all honesty, if I had more money, I probably would have gotten the cert from ASQ or large university, but I needed bang-for-the-buck, as they say.Given your educational background and experience, it is well within your intelligence to successfully implement a SS project with the Aveta training, once you get a job, so do not feel you will not be prepared. Will you get more out of an ASQ or Kaplan certification? I cannot answer that. Will you get more calls with some six sigma verbiage in your resume? I can answer that and the answer is, “Yes”. Good Luck!

    #159027

    Anybody notice that in all the postings in this tread that Stan has just made smart comments the entire time without any meaningful contribution?Way to go buddy. If only they could begin cloning you our entire economy would be saved!!!!Save yourself the quick 1 line reply Stan… I dont plan on returning.

    #159029

    And your contribution has been ?

    #159482

    Thank you Chris, this was a complete and appreciated response.

    #159483

    Thank you Chris, this was a complete and appreciated response.

    #161609

    I am currently studying the Aveta Six Sigma course. I chose this course because it is online and allows a hypothetical project to be completed. It essentially forces the detailed reading of the Six Sigma handbook by Thomas Pyzdek and the examinations – so far 25 questions each ask about issues referred to directly in the text. The course also contains some further video and text support material. The course was discounted to a price I was prepared to pay, as against the full price I would not have been prepared to pay. In many senses I could be disappointed – it is a money making venture for Aveta. but in other ways the disciplined self study it promotes is ultimately likely to lead to greater retention of detail than doing – for example – a class room course. I think there are weaknesses of one sort or another in most six sigma courses and this certainly has some, but at the end of the day it will provide me with an accreditation for six sigma with a lean module included and I think it is a credible option in an unsatisfactory market place.

    #162309

    With the Aveta six sigma program for black belt do you get Minitab? I  am interested in the Aveta program, but I am still debating if I should go with them or 6sigma.us. 6 sigma.us program include mintab?
    For those who took SS with Aveta, what software did you use for statistical analysis?

    #163382
    Profile photo of Christine Calhoun
    Christine Calhoun
    Participant
    Reputation - 0
    Rank - Aluminum

    I did my BB through Aveta Solutions and it was great!  You get a free download for 30 days of minitab.  You can also get a free download of quality companion as well.  I completed my tests first and then when I was ready to use minitabI downloaded it.  I also did the MBB through them.  Also check out PROSCI, they have some great change management tools.  Hope this helps.

    #163393

    oooh baby, I bet the job offers are rolling in now!That online MBB stuff is in high demand.

    #163399

    Sounds like a good business opportunity

    #163403

    Go find your own name.Or go get a meaningless certification.

    #163417

    Sorry for piling on, but those downloads for Minitab products are available for free to all via Minitab directly. What is the value does Aveta provide in that regard?

    #164315

    Did I miss something here? Their Black Belt Program is like $900 bucks and the price of Minitab software is $1200. So to rephrase “if I cant get Black Belt training, Certification, Minitab lessons, and a copy of a $1200 piece of software for $900 bucks, … where is the value”?LOL, wow you really need to rethink that statement.I’ve taken classes at both Aveta & Villanova. I thought they were on a similar level (and Aveta was much less expensive).But what do I know, my parents didn’t name me Stan and make me socially akward.

    #164320

    Yea, your name is Tommy. What kind of name is that? I can spell too.

    #165521

    Now that you’ve declared you won’t hire an Aveta “graduate”, do you have recommendations for a school from which you would hire?Thank you,sigmafreud

    #165529

    certainly don’t think that I’d hire someone replying to a year and a half old post, whose poster hasn’t been active for nearly that long.

    #165540

    you’d be surprise as to how new information develops even within a year’s time…

    #165641

    Just like a college degree, a certification is really just a starting place.  I wouldn’t automatically hire someone just because they had a Harvard degree, there is no certificaton source that is automatically better than others.  My certification is from GE, and there are people who are GE certified that I would not hire.
    I generally do not like certifications from third parties since they do not have a stake in the certificaiton like a corporate program does.  It is too easy for them to be just a certification mill and not focused on results.

    #166379

    Mark,
    Your information was helpful to decide which program green or black belt should be considered and through which on line institute.  Did you look into villanova university program as well? I am looking for direction to make the best choice for a Black Belt certification in Banking industry. All though our Bank does offer but getting on a project is not always an available project for all and so I am considering doing it on my own .

    #166383

    Input from a good headhunter today -Who knows who to hire these days with Villanova pumping 1,000
    poorly trained BB’s into the system every month?

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