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This topic has 1 voice, contains 44 replies, and was last updated by
vidya Kulkarni 777 days ago.
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| February 5, 2007 at 4:04 am #121426 | |
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Mélanie @Mélanie Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Any ideas? |
| February 5, 2007 at 5:55 am #121430 | |
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Jim Shelor @Jim-Shelor Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Dear Melanie, |
| February 5, 2007 at 9:49 pm #121488 | |
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Mélanie @Mélanie Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Jim: |
| February 5, 2007 at 9:49 pm #121489 | |
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Mélanie @Mélanie Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Jim: |
| February 5, 2007 at 9:55 pm #121490 | |
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Mélanie @Mélanie Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Jim: |
| February 5, 2007 at 10:17 pm #121493 | |
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Darth @Darth Reputation - 1134 Rank - Silver
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Melanie, this looks like you are barking up the wrong tree. What are you trying to prove? If you are trying to show that 10 is statistically different than 1000, that’s a no brainer. You are taking percentages and treating them as continuous data by using histograms and mentioning normality. You have counts, which are discrete. We don’t know enough yet if it can be treated as continuous. Again, what is your problem? If you are trying to show that the proportion of actual responses is the same/different than the proportion of expected, then you use proportion tests or chi square. You have a bigger problem to deal with because it looks like you have a very small response rate given you expected 1000 and got 10. Jim, don’t send her off on any more wild goose chases until she clarifies what the heck she is trying to do…unless you have some mindmeld that makes it perfectly clear what she means. I for one haven’t got a clue. |
| February 6, 2007 at 1:07 am #121499 | |
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Jim Shelor @Jim-Shelor Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Dear Melanie, |
| February 6, 2007 at 2:27 am #121501 | |
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Darth @Darth Reputation - 1134 Rank - Silver
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Sorry Jim, I have a problem with you recommending all this proportion and percentage stuff and recommending she do a T test. What happened to using tests for proportions? Melanie still doesn’t understand what she is trying to accomplish. |
| February 6, 2007 at 3:53 am #121505 | |
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Emperor @Emperor Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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jim, you would do yourself and this site a huge favor by reading up on the very basic literature of survey research and how to analyze this kind of data before giving advice on a subject matter that is obviously way beyond your skill. it is sad enough that the original question demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of survey research that can only be compounded by advice that demonstrates a similar lack of knowledge. stay with your pmp and ssbb credentials, but don’t parade as the emperor with no clothes. |
| February 6, 2007 at 8:24 am #121508 | |
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Jim Shelor @Jim-Shelor Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Dear Darth and Emperor, |
| February 6, 2007 at 1:52 pm #121514 | |
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Darth @Darth Reputation - 1134 Rank - Silver
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Jim, I have already made my suggestions to you a few times. Basically stop treating it as continuous data and use proportional statistics. Because she said a histogram looks normal is a far cry from it actually being normal. Given the small data sets, everything will likely look normal. Plus a histogram provides a clue but certainly not evidence of “normality”. I think you and she are overlooking the major issue which is the low response rate. This creates a major non response bias that I haven’t seen mentioned or cautioned about yet. Having the actual responses in the same proportion as the expected responses doesn’t, by itself, provide useful information. The resulting responses must be representative of the population. And frankly, her expected responses are hypothetical while all she really has are the actual responses. So, comparing those are meaningless as well. An important contribution of this forum is not only the direct answering of questions but also the pointing out of fallacies in approach if appropriate. That is what I have been trying to do with Melanie. And yes, I will have to agree on some level with Emperor that Melanie has not stated her problem clearly. |
| February 6, 2007 at 3:14 pm #121519 | |
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Jim Shelor @Jim-Shelor Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Dear Melanie, |
| February 6, 2007 at 4:58 pm #121525 | |
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Expectation @Expectation Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Unfortunately, research objective is so poorly thought through that it’s only worth pointing out the two most obvious fallacies: |
| February 7, 2007 at 5:25 am #121561 | |
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Mélanie @Mélanie Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Gentlemen, Normality – none of the actual or expected percentages (or normal counts) are normal distributions. The Anderson Darling P values are low. |
| February 7, 2007 at 3:44 pm #121576 | |
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Expectation @Expectation Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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I am sitting here in awe about the level of ignorance that prompted your ”managers”, not only to waste the resources to obtain 20,000 “expected’ responses, to waste their time estimating “expected” proportion of responses on a 10-scale satisfaction item, and now contemplating a follow up survey to understand “non-response bias”. If anybody in your company did some basic research or had a minimal understanding of the purpose of the exercise, they would have found out the following: |
| February 7, 2007 at 4:22 pm #121578 | |
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Darth @Darth Reputation - 1134 Rank - Silver
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Melanie, thanks for the clarification. Expectation put it quite clearly that organizations luv to do their surveys without sufficient planning ahead of time. Most are fishing expeditions. To summarize what I understand to date. First, you got a 10% response rate so the issue of non response bias might be a concern. As Expectation pointed out, if you have historical data and it leads you to the conclusion that response and nonresponse have not varied significantly in the past, then maybe you don’t have to do a followup survey. If you don’t have that data, then you will have to consider the followup survey. Second, the tests that you have run so far seem to indicate that there is a difference between the proportions you expected and what you received. Ok, so what? Since the actuals represent reality and the expected represent management wet dreams you go with the actual data and then figure out what the hell management was thinking. Third, there is no magical statistical solution at this point. You report the proportions that you actually received and they are what they are. Figure out why they may be lower than you want and start planning on how you will improve customer perceptions. If you have really good operational definitions of what the questions were searching for you might have some direction. If the questions were not worded well then you will still be unsure what to do with the results. Finally, I would stop worrying about any differences between actual versus expected. The only time I might consider it is if the expected was based upon another survey or source of customer perception and the inconsistency might need to be explained. If it is just management expectation, stop wasting your time. |
| February 7, 2007 at 4:52 pm #121585 | |
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Jim Shelor @Jim-Shelor Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Dear Melanie, |
| February 7, 2007 at 5:30 pm #121589 | |
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Expectation @Expectation Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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It looks like we are finally over the fenciful statistical stuff, and can move on to what can be done given the quality of the given data. |
| February 8, 2007 at 12:56 am #121615 | |
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Mélanie @Mélanie Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Guys, |
| February 8, 2007 at 5:26 am #121624 | |
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Mélanie @Mélanie Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Jim, |
| February 8, 2007 at 5:29 am #121625 | |
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Mélanie @Mélanie Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Darth, |
| February 8, 2007 at 6:18 am #121628 | |
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Jim Shelor @Jim-Shelor Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Mel, |
| February 8, 2007 at 2:14 pm #121657 | |
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Darth @Darth Reputation - 1134 Rank - Silver
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As Jim said, assuming that the surveys were comparable, you can do a “before and after” using the same tools as before- 2 proportion or chi square. If the surveys are apples and oranges and get at different issues then a comparison doesn’t tell you much. One shot surveys are useless because they only give you a snapshot in time. Ongoing monitoring of critical customer requirements is important to spot change. Then again, there should be adequate internal metrics that are leading predictors of customer satisfaction. You don’t wait until a customer survey to find out that you suck. You might use them to check perception and whether it is in alignment with how you think you are doing relative to what is important to the customer. |
| February 8, 2007 at 3:53 pm #121666 | |
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Expectation @Expectation Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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“One shot surveys are useless because they only give you a snapshot in time” … at some point these “useless” surveys had a name: “cross-sectional”. It’s almost too ironic how confused even experienced six sigma professionals are about the measurement of their most critical dependent variable: customer satisfaction. So much time spent on statitistics and so little knowledge about interpreting changes in those highly revered “satisfaction scores”. There is, after all, a healthy dose of pop culture in this all too scientific enterprise: Six Sigma. |
| February 8, 2007 at 4:29 pm #121670 | |
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Jim Shelor @Jim-Shelor Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Dear Expectation, |
| February 8, 2007 at 4:36 pm #121671 | |
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Jim Shelor @Jim-Shelor Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Dear Melanie, |
| February 8, 2007 at 7:29 pm #121687 | |
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Darth @Darth Reputation - 1134 Rank - Silver
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Expectation, not sure the point of your last post. Where you just offering an opinion or did you have a problem with my statement about the value of one shot surveys. Surely, you don’t advocate doing a cust. sat survey once and then assuming that everything will be OK going forward? Given how fickle and quickly customers can change perceptions due to a slippage in customer service or a competitor that’s finally got it together, any one time survey has little value except for a specific window of time. Your statement, “……so little knowledge about interpreting changes…..” seems to indicate that you support my comment that one shot surveys have only fleeting value. |
| February 8, 2007 at 8:29 pm #121690 | |
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Expectation @Expectation Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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I’ll leave it up to you and every six sigma professional to dig into the strand of literature that started with Cadoza’s article in the Journal of Marketing (1965), and read up on the last 42 years of literature on the antecedents, determinants and consequences of satisfaction. It is just amazing to what degree quality and six sigma have missed this whole strand of literature and still religiously repeat Kano’s conceptual model from the 1950s. I hope that on its way to six sigmatizing marketing, six sigma may learn a thing or two from an adjacent strand of business research. What a heretic idea that six sigma may actually benefit from learning something about its most cherished assumptions. I assume that we agree and disagree. |
| February 8, 2007 at 9:50 pm #121697 | |
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Darth @Darth Reputation - 1134 Rank - Silver
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OK, now I understand what I am dealing with. I ask a straightforward question and get a rambling pontification citing old articles and a mandate to go read about everything that I don’t know. Guess you are the type of poster that will never contribute to a learning experience beyond pretending you know it all, everyone else is ignorant but determined not to share that self assessed depth of knowledge. OK, let’s try it again, regardless of what Cadoza said in 1965, do you ascribe to the policy of doing one shot surveys or do you feel that multiple surveys are needed to monitor changing customer perceptions? Not sure what that has to do with Kano. I would suggest that you read a transcript of Dr. Deming’s 1950 speech to Japanese Management in which he discusses market surveys. I believe his credentials, publications and knowledge of surveys exceeds your beloved Cadoza. Oh, by the way, I assume you meant all five pages of CARDOZA’s article…BFD!!!R.N. Cardoza, An experimental study of consumer effort, expectation and satisfaction, Journal of Marketing Research 2 (8), 1965, pp. 244-249.Now you definitely look like an arrogant fool. If you are going to cite someone, at least spell his friggin name correctly and cite the correct publication. |
| February 8, 2007 at 10:13 pm #121698 | |
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luke skywalker @luke-skywalker Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Spreadin’ the love…that’s what it’s all about. |
| February 8, 2007 at 10:59 pm #121700 | |
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Darth @Darth Reputation - 1134 Rank - Silver
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And you’re just a chip off the old block. I hate these pedantic know it alls. At least you and I do know it all :-). Did my wedding invitation get lost in the mail??????? Hope all is good. |
| February 9, 2007 at 12:19 am #121701 | |
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Expectation @Expectation Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Darth, |
| February 9, 2007 at 1:25 pm #121716 | |
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luke skywalker @luke-skywalker Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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No, your invitation did not get lost – I have to protect my bride form the dark side as long as possible. Should be a fun party, so watch your mailbox… |
| February 9, 2007 at 1:54 pm #121717 | |
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James Considine @JConsidine Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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The one thing I’d add to the discussion picks up on the earlier comment about the 9′s and 10′s. Harvard Business Review ran an article a couple of years back about using something called the Net Promoter score to gauge customer satisfaction.Basically, you ask customers if they would recommend your firm to others. Take the % of 9′s and 10′s, subtract the % of 1, 2, 3′s and track THAT number over time. Some firms actually measure managers’ performance using this metric (Enterprise Car Rental, for example)The other thing I always emphasized to our management when I analyzed surveys were the verbatim comments. Often these were far more rich than the scores themselves.Good luck – sounds like your managers may be wanting some “validation” of whatever it is they’re doing, and the survey was chosen as the weapon of choice. |
| February 9, 2007 at 2:15 pm #121719 | |
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Darth @Darth Reputation - 1134 Rank - Silver
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Hey Luke, glad things are moving along on the personal front. The placebo business, as you put it, has allowed me to give up anti-depressants because things are so calm and stress free. In this case, one door closed and a better one opened. Did see TB at the FLL airport a few weeks ago. He was heading back to CLT after being on a cruise. We caught up a bit. I’ll go check the mailbox again. |
| February 9, 2007 at 5:58 pm #121728 | |
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Proxy @Proxy Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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The net promoter score was a nice tool years ago. It suffers from the same problem that it tried to remedy: method-method artifacts. The area has moved on to measure retention and share of wallet. Today, the net promoter score is a proxy when a company cannot or will not tie the score to actual behavior. |
| February 11, 2007 at 2:01 pm #121761 | |
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Anonymous @Anonymous Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Expectation, |
| February 11, 2007 at 5:45 pm #121767 | |
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Expectation @Expectation Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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if it is was worth my time, i would give an explanation. however, 1 + 1 = 2. what is there to explain when a complete novice calculates it as 1 + 1 = 3? … isn’t that the standard answer that you give to those novices who ask those very basic questions about stats? i can’t even disagree with you because why answer the obvious? cheers, it’s a beautiful day where i am now. keep up the good work. you all seem to be enlightening each other quite happily. |
| February 12, 2007 at 11:15 am #121791 | |
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Anonymous @Anonymous Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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More cyber graffeti. Your post bears a strong semblance to the Turner Networks cartoon character making an obscene jesture with the difference being that regarless of the outcome they managed to deliver their result. At this point you have delivered nothing other than noise. |
| February 12, 2007 at 2:20 pm #121802 | |
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Expectation @Expectation Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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have a wonderful day! |
| February 12, 2007 at 9:19 pm #121830 | |
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Heebeegeebee BB @Heebeegeebee-BB Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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ALL YOU BASE ARE BELONG TO US. |
| February 15, 2007 at 2:42 pm #122020 | |
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Chris Murphy @Murphy Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Darth, |
| February 15, 2007 at 3:39 pm #122023 | |
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eric @eric Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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The test you want is a Chi square test. Perhaps other replies have indicated this. This is a rather low lwvel test and does not utilize the real power of the data that you have. The scale is an interval level scale which supports much more robust tests. The Chi Square test is an ordinal/nominal level test that approximates a more robust correlation. |
| March 8, 2007 at 6:31 pm #123118 | |
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BTDT @BTDT Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Melanie:I am in the midst of defining some rigour around the analysis of NPS. I am very interested in talking with you.Cheers, BTDT6SigmaGuru(at)gmail(dot)com |
| December 18, 2009 at 8:17 am #164528 | |
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vidya Kulkarni @vidya Reputation - 0 Rank - Aluminum
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Guys, |
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