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360 feedback

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Viewing 15 posts - 101 through 115 (of 115 total)
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  • #102126

    Prof. Tom
    Participant

    Mike,
     
    One of my great joys in finding this site is the discussions that we all have and your postings almost always challenge conventional and statist thinking and I welcome that!
    But…isnt there always a “but”?!  I still think that your experience with 360 has clouded your perception.  Yes the system can be abused, but then which system cant?  Far from your description of a compass that does not show true north, 360 is a tool and in my opinion, one of the better HR tools that is out there.  And I agree…there are very few that are worth while.  Most performance feedback systems do not provide reliable data unless in the hands of a practitioner who knows what they are doing.
    Just like I would not want a person who has not been trained in Six Sigma to be managing six sigma projects, so I would not want 360 used by a novice.  Both senarios are set for disaster.
    With so few HR measurements that are reliable, 360 provides a look at human interaction with inputs from all around the individual rather than just from an immediate supervisor who may never have worked with or interacted with the person being reviewed.
    Again, I would never say that 360 provides everything that you need to make decisions, but it does provide a reference point to start from.  The better trained a person is in 360, the better able they will be to use the data that is generated.
    I am currently teaching a Lean management program to a corporation to help with their implementation.  In the past, each person was compensated by their own performance, they are now moving to team based performance pay.  360 will provide a look into interpersonal team relationships and I am using Gallup Strenths to determine why individuals function the way they do on the team.  These will then be used with a number of other tools to enhance team productivity in a Lean Manufacturing and Servicing environment.  I will be personnaly training the people that look at the 360 data to ensure that mistakes like the ones you have talked about do not happen.
    There are many people out there in the economy that will not accept Six Sigma as a practice for a number of reasons, one of which is due to seeing the process poorly applied and seeing people hammered because the results did not meet expectations.  Every tool, improporly apllied can cause damage and the preseption that it does not work.
    Have you heard the joke about how many MBB’s it takes to screw in a light bulb?….nuff said.

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    #102130

    billybob
    Participant

    Hey Mr. Mike,
    I remember way back when i was a lowly foreman at GE a manager once telling me that he always hired people who wanted his job as manager a little more than he wanted it.
    Now it makes sense to me why our division closed down.
    Later,
    Billybob

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    #102132

    Nwajei
    Participant

    It is obvious that Mike Carnell has not fared well in the 360-degree feedbacks that he has had in the past.   It is possible that some of the traits that might be useful to a Six Sigma deployment leader, e.g., non-compromising, headstrong, pronounced sense of unerring judgment, etc., would not necessarily rate well in 360-degree feedbacks.  Of course the negativity associated with the use of 360’s might well abate if Mike Carnell, Stan and Darth got together and rated each other – formally that is, not just in-forum stroking. 

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    #102133

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    Fan,
    Gee, at least Carnell’s guy was polite.  And you know all about me and what I have been doing “for the past God knows how many years” …… because??????  I did a Forum search and have failed to find any post or contribution on your part.  As a result, I guess I can’t take your comments too seriously but thanks for them.

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    #102137

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Frank,
    Thank you for the comments. Actually I have never gone through a 360 myself. The problem I have with the measurement system is just basic to Six Sigma practice. The worst part for me is that the HR professionals have put this in place, don’t realize they are dealing with a measurement system, didn’t bother to understand the ramifications of the system and when you speak to them about it don’t care.
    The emotional response came in when I watched a person whom I would consider unstable on a really good day damage a person whom did a wonderful job for every one but this person(?). The interpretation was the convenient slide out the back door.
    “….pronounced sense of unerring judgment.” excuse me?
    Thanks,
    Regards,
    Mike

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    #102138

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Billybob,
    Hey, you started this whole thing again and then disappeared on me. I showed up early for a conference call and got snagged by being predictable. Thank you very much.
    Regards,
    Mike

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    #102141

    Ghero Meayrns
    Participant

    Imagine…a thread on 360 feedback going around…and around….and around…and around (ad nauseum).
    The world is run by blowhard egoists who insist upon having the positions of influence (in business and politics), and they are placed/promoted into those jobs by egoists who (not coincidentally)  insist upon having the positions of influence.  They believe that the key to rising out of and above the swarming pool of engineers is salesy self-promotion and an unstoppable drive to taut every simple success as a tremendous achievement for which they are solely responsible.  Presidents, senators, and company managers believe perception is reality and manipulation of perception is the key to success (press coverage of the caskets might create a negative perception of our agenda).
    And they are winning.  It has nothing to do with capability, technical competence, knowing the right things to do, managing using data, supervisory skills, or recognizing and rewarding performance.  It has to do with PowerPoint and a blatant willingness to report that your decision (regardless of what that decision might have been or the actual outcome) was successful.  Then you go from door to door telling people all the great things you’ve done. 
    A new V.P. of Marketing once told me the story of being at a dinner party at one of our sites, and “a young man came up to me, shook my hand and said, ‘My name is Mike Pukeman and I’m really interested in climbing the corporate ladder.”  It’s exactly the sort of statement that is known to be true for everyone and so should be offensive, but the V.P. went on to say, “and that impressed me SO much that when the Sales Manager position opened, I gave the job to him.”
    I’ve spent a career of hearing these guys say, “Well, you want to phrase this to our best advantage” and even, “You just need to learn to lie a little.”  I’ve spent a career watching master manipulators assess just what it is their visitor or caller wants to hear and then simply find a way to say exactly that:  e.g., “Sure we can get that to you the 23rd.”  Then when the 24th and the phonecall come, that same a$$ says, “You didn’t?  Well, I’ll go out to production right now and find out what happened.” 
    There’s no stopping this.  There is no reward for integrity.  There is no reward for solving problems using data.  We are living in a world of liars and charlatans handing successes and rewards to kindred liars and charlatans.  They couldn’t care less what we think;  they know what’s important.  They talk among themselves about what’s important and talk among themselves about it and about how they figured it out and how it’s the fault of the stupid working masses for not figuring it out on our own too.  When we give them negative feedback, it’s just another small thing for them to manipulate a perception around.  360 degree feedback doesn’t work.  Trying to change these people is like trying to hold snakes in a wire cage with wide spacing;  no matter which sides you manage to cover with your hands, they will always find a way to slip through the other side – ultimately to their advantage.  This epidemic is much much larger than we want to acknowledge – 360 degree feedback is like trying to stop the gears of Big Ben by tossing an acorn toward the gears.  They win.  They’re always going to win.  There’s no stopping them.

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    #102142

    Nwajei
    Participant

    Ghero – I fear that your concerns go much deeper and broader than 360-degree feedbacks.   They (360’s) are just a tool, use them or not, value them or not, it matters not.   Don’t get emotionally caught up in what is really just an esoteric debate of little consequence with folks picking at each other.  And I say that not only as a blowhard egotist but also as a swarming engineer fresh from the pool.  Frank

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    #102145

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Mike,
    Dr. Deming took a dim view of not just 360’s but reviews in general. Everyone likes to jump up and down with the Deming banner until it doesn’t fit what they want.
    Thanks for the comments.
    Regards,
    Mike

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    #102166

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ghero,
    How true … now that you’ve come to this realisation you can teach your children, find a nice property in France, study Taoism, and contemplate this amazing classroom we call Life.
    Best wishes,
    Andy

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    #102177

    Mikel
    Member

    Frank,
    My 360 feedback on you – prefers form over substance, not suitable for a role where conflict must be overcome.
    In about half of the organizations I’ve worked for that comment would be a setback in your career. In the other half it would have been a setback in my career. Which is right? (hint – neither is right)
    The thing that is missed in this whole thing is that the assumption of 360’s is that everyone gets their motivation from the same place. They don’t. I come to work everyday to do the best job I can in the context of what I know to be right and what I understand about the needs of the organization. If I get negative feedback from someone who is easily offended or not on the same page with me, I give it about a nanosecond of thought. In other words I do not get confidence from a positive 360 nor does my confidence get harmed from a negative 360, it is just a superstitious feel good (or perhaps feel bad) dance some organizations do.
    Get objective measures.

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    #102199

    Nwajei
    Participant

    Stan,
     
    Would you agree that a portion of your effectiveness in an organization is based on how you are perceived by your organization?    And, if so, would you agree that it’s better for you to know how you are perceived than to not know how you are perceived?     Better in that if there were negative aspects of your personality or delivery that were getting in the way of your being as effective as possible, and you chose to be introspective enough to apply the information that you received, that you could take proactive steps toward personal improvement – that might also fulfill organizational improvement objectives?
     
    My 360 to you –
     
    You, in my opinion, personify exactly the dichotomy that I am referring to.  If I can explore this just for a moment without inflaming subsequent responses beyond repair, you have a wealth of technical knowledge, an obvious willingness to share your knowledge (on your own terms), and have an enviable breadth of experience.   But, you lose almost as much as you gain in the way you respond to questions and input.   You are abrupt and sarcastic and while that can be entertaining and can tell others that they should be using elementary research to answer their questions versus bothering the forum if people have to continuously overlook your delivery to find the nuggets of wisdom, and there are quite a few there, you are not being as effective as possible.   You have the chance to be an organizational thought leader, our Yoda, but you opt instead to be the organization’s irascible protagonist.   No one says you have to be, or should be, Yoda, but if you wanted to be you could be, but you won’t be because you, by choice, are a prick.   Now if you wanted to be Yoda, and had no idea why so many people named Mike choose to challenge everything you say, regardless of their lack of substantive topical comprehension, maybe a really direct and well-administered 360-degree feedback would give you that piece of introspectively useful information that you needed to become an aged alien Six Sigma reference point – our Yoda.   Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
     Frank

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    #102202

    PB
    Participant

    Stan,
    All this while I thought a 360 feedback was a reflection of one’s way of working with one’s peers. This feedback was what they percieved you as you were – working with them. My experiences have been that the feedback was always negative from people who saw me as a threat to them (my peers) as a future manager of theirs. This created a lot of road blocks from the very same peers during my SS projects, or other work related agenda. Based on this, I would prefer NOT getting a feedback on how I was percieved.  Frank seems to have done your ‘review’ (as a manager would do) based solely on your ‘posts’ in this forum.
    If I remember correctly from your posts – you are not a major proponent of Six Sigma, your replies are based on learned experiences, and you have low tolerance for ‘small talk’ or ‘goofy questions’. You do not care to be a Yoda. You want to fight the good fight and the bad fight equally – and fights are always bloody (unless it is throwing rose petals at each other).
    If I was the CEO of an organization and felt a need for continuous improvement and needed someone to lead that effort, I would look for someone like Gabriel, you, or Statman (great analytical thinking, great problem solving skills). SS will only take one so far. After that, you need to have it in you.
    Hopefully, the White Paper (and debate) will end into one terrific 360 for you.
    PB

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    #102203

    Mikel
    Member

    Frank,
    Thanks for your well thought out feedback. You may note I never go after anything that is well thought out and I will not go after this.
    I have no desire to be Yoda. I desire to help those who come seeking help after struggling on thier own. I desire to call out nonsense like the Mikel worshiping from Reigle. I also desire to call out those who come on here to sing the glories of Six Sigma as the end all be all substitute for experience and good systems. And I am a prick to those who show up as the “savior” (they usually point out all of their academic credentials before offering anything).
    I also come on here to have a real learning opportunity with some very smart people like Mike Carnell, Gabriel, Darth, Andy U……..& frank?

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    #102204

    Mikel
    Member

    Thank you.
    PS – now I feel compelled to behave all day, Darth you may have to take over my duties for the rest of the day. Just act like you were acting a few weeks ago.

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Viewing 15 posts - 101 through 115 (of 115 total)

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