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6 sigma is a hoax

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  • #37521

    Markert
    Participant

    the more I read about 6 sigma the more it seems to be a load of crap!
    It is just the latest management fad.
     
    each project should return 240k, please – who are you all kidding???
    Black belts, green belts get out of the playgound

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    #110648

    Terry
    Member

    (He’s on to us.)
    :)
    Oh, the newbies. What do you do with them?

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    #110650

    Jackk
    Participant

    Six sigma is a bunch of garbage. Let the ss folks feel important and educated for now. In a few years these same “experts” will be forcing some other piece of garbage down the throats of foolish CEOs. It’s also funny to watch the “black and master black” belts at my company run around like they are legitimate researchers. Even the green belts come out of their two day training like they are experts. they are all rats, bottom feeding on junk science called six sigma

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    #110651

    Bob B
    Participant

    I’ve been an IT manager for most of my career and went thru 6 sigma GB and BB training a few years ago. I have found the tools to be a great help in solving problems that have gone on forever and had no answer. Getting a cross functional group of people in a room, collecting data, looking at the “As Is” process, flowing it out before jumping to a solution is a good idea. I’ve had some modest successes in IT, Product Management, Finance….etc. saved money and best of all I see a culture shift.
    People in our company are starting to look around their own work area and are coming up with some pretty impressive process improvements.

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    #110652

    Orlando
    Participant

    Hi Phil
    Tell us all about it.  What is it you find troubling about Six Sigma. 
    orlando

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    #110653

    Goulais River
    Participant

    I have been involved with a few different continuous improvement initiatives and courses. I have also gone through ISO certification, and worked with a few different companies that followed their own propriatary quality systems. All in all they are so similar you are really splitting hairs trying to differentiate between them.
    I think that the concepts of 6 sigma are as good as any, and that the statistical end of 6sigma is overkill for most applications.
    What really ticks me off is the strong supporters who think that 6 sigma is synonomous with continuous improvement. If you don’t buy in, then you are resistant to change, blah blah blah. Or once 6sigma is implemented, every good idea or savings is credited to 6 sigma. Like no other bussiness ever thought to improve quality or reduce cost before 6 sigma.
    The GB, BB, and MBB is a total marketing scam.
    All of the “tools” that are part of the 6sigma methodology have been around for ever. The 6sigma supporters will have you beleive that this is actually new.
    I insist that if a company has good strong leadership with vision, continuous improvement comes naturally. I should hope that people in management positions already have the  skill sets to identify a problem/opportunity and then take action.
    Poor leadership initiates a structured program like 6 sigma because they are too weak. When/if 6 sigma fails, there are lots of directions to point to for blame.
    I hate to sound negative, but I have to agree that 6 sigma is just another package of the same old tools. The consulting, training, and certification is a total scam. But I guess we are all entittled to a living.
     
    GR

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    #110654

    Marz
    Participant

    A belief is only as strong as the faith of those who believe.  6Sigma is an evolutionary system, but don’t think it will be the last of its kind.  It will continue to grow and change as new tools evolve.  The foundation in the DMAIC process is strong and will likely survive for a long while.  Many others are paying attention also.  I was at my daughter’s class where a similar 5-step process was being used to teach children how to solve math problems methodically.  Tell me that you learned that in Middle School.
    I don’t deny that GBs, BBs and MBBs may not appear to be the superheroes they are billed to be.  In my own experience, it took a long time to reinforce the competencies through experience that I learned in GB and BB training.  So cut them some slack and let them learn what they need to be successful.
    I recall someone in this chain stating that good leadership would acheive greater results than 6Sigma.  I have to disagree.  Good leadership is largely based on talent and experience.  However, good leaders tend to rise quickly in companies (18 to 24 months per role on average) leaving the average leaders behind to maintain the performance level that was built by the good leaders that have moved on and up.  At some point the good leaders outgrow their talent and experience causing them to become average leaders also or worse.  However, using a system like 6Sigma reduces the reliance on talent to drive organizational performance by consistently using the foundational principals and applying tools as needed, regardless of whether they belong to Six Sigma, Lean Manufacturing or something else.  In short, the mediocre can achieve great things.
    My experiences in training 6Sigma suggest that most people can’t accept that it works until they successfully experience it for themselves.  So try it out.  I know it’s not like what you learned in college.  In truth, project management is seldom taught in college at undergrad or graduate level.  I’m pretty sure that’s why companies typically perform badly at it. 
    So here’s the challenge.  No, it’s a dare!  Try it out and bring your talents to it.  Drive it to the next level and maybe you can design the next leg of this fad:  Deming…TQM…Lean Mfg…6Sigma….?  What else are you accomplishing besides complaining?

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    #110655

    Rex
    Participant

    Phil,
    I’m curious, are you amongst the same group that also believes Bush really didn’t win this election because the election results didn’t match the exit polls???
    Keep striving for the status quo…

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    #110658

    Ron
    Member

    Well, let’s see here Jackk…
    You said: “In a few years these same ‘experts’ will be forcing some other piece of garbage down the throats of foolish CEOs.”
    How many years does it have to be in existance and delivering results for you to eat your words? Three? Five? Ten?
    Do your research. GE implemented it ten years ago and it’s still going strong. Allied Signal before that. Motorola before that. Thousands of other companies are beginning to implement it today because of the proven results at other companies and pilots at their own.
    Don’t be such a nay sayer when the data point to otherwise. Try to find a sponsor and be a little positive for once. You may actually enjoy it.

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    #110659

    Johnny Guilherme
    Participant

    Phil
    As much as i dont want to agree with you, I suppose I have to agree. I lot of the stuff has been around for years. In my previuos company we had a JIT programme, which then was called Continuous flow manufactruing (CFM), now referred to as Lean manufactruing. So in essence as someone else has written, old wine in new glasses.
    The real sad story is trying to sell new words to operators on the shop floor. These guys really become tired of new words and so they look at management  and say you are fools without any proper vision and a way forward.
    On a more positive note, the real issue lies with people in management position having the guts to take the tools and applying them. Also its about maintaining the momentum after something new is introduced i.e. on CEO starts something and when he leaves the next guy continues on the same path.(in my experience this is a big problem).
    Anyway I dont think we must also just blame the tools i.e. six sigma, its really about people making it happen. So lets blame the people supposedly in charge and not the tools.
    Just my opinion.
    Johnny Guilherme

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    #110660

    Lombard
    Participant

    Well, I am a newbie to SS (18 months) have done no GB BB MBB training, but see a lot of value in using SS in Software Architecture and the like.  I am a Systems/Software Architect and busy studying DFSS (Design for Six Sigma) concepts and THIS makes a lot of sense to me.  After-all, it reveloves around customer satisfaction, whether it is another company, person or process.
    Phill, I do not know what type of car you are driving, but if it is a BMW or Mercedes, you would have expericned 6 sigma quality.  If you have flown recently with any aircraft using General Electric turbo fan engines, you experienced six sigma quality.  And if you are sitll alive after landing withou a mishap, you are a very pleased customer who have experienced six sigma.
    And I am not even talking about having a Miller….
    Just my bit.

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    #110662

    Johnny Guilherme
    Participant

    Pierre
    Not wanting to sound negative, but BM’s and merc’s and aircraft have been around for decades. What philosophies were be used then to experience the quality of the vehicle or aircraft being used.
    I think Phil is just trying to highlight that some of the stuff has been around for a while but maybe is being packaged in a different carton. I am all for the tools-but my only concern is getting everybody (operators, CEO’s, amanagers etc) to believe in them and then apply.
    regards
    Johnny

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    #110663

    Lombard
    Participant

    Johnny,
    You are quite right by saying MANAGEMENT.  You need to have buy-in from Executive level to the shop floor, but it is a paradigm shift and it will need a culture change.  Yes the tools are there for a long time, but someone put them in the correct order for us to use.  Jack said, “Take out the last 20% performers. They have no need to part of the culture.”  Six sigma will not survive if you does not have measurements in place, and it needs to be controled, and this is where the problem lies.  Managers gets to “easy” with those under them and eventually does not recognise the last 20% bad performers – hencea flat line.  You need to rotate your managers as well.
    GE was, I repeat, was an excellent company using SS, but why is it not No. 1 anymore? (Fortune 500)  IS it perhaps the hype about SS went dead, or was it because Jack retired.
    On the other hand, I believe Richard Branson (Sir) does not use SS, but his attitude in life makes him a winner and his employees believe in him!!!

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    #110666

    Farhad
    Participant

    Hi All
    I loved this discussion. Ive been on both sides of this debate. After having been in the area for a few years, I am convinced that there is a lot of Hype in the way its been marketed…but largely by consultants hawking their wares.
    The

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    #110667

    Johnny Guilherme
    Participant

    Pierre
    Now the word attitude is supposedly what i was wanting to get to in my postings. The wrong attitude with the right tools will never work. People are also just looking out for themselves and their own pockets. Some managers and CEO’s are around just for a while-enough time to secure the future-and so who cares about introducing and making a program like six sigma work. Its probably the guys like you and I who stick around with a company for a while and would like to be part of the change and implementation (of programs like six sigma), but never get the opportunity because of wrong attitudes of people in more senior positions. Hope this makes sense.
    Johnny

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    #110668

    Farhad
    Participant

    Sorry, Posted the first part without completing.
    The Body of Knowledge is certainly very sound sense, creating metrics for anything thats important to your customer or delivers it to them is sound sense. Using statistical data to drive decisions is sound sense…Most companies already do that…..and thats why managers think its just repackaged bullshit.
    Real benefits can come when adequate involvement is sought. Dont use the shopfloor worker as as a data collecter use the experience they have to define the problem better. Use customer service and customers to help define what they really want. Then honestly evaluate what U deliver them. Use data to monitor deliverables. Isnt that sound sense…its also the essence of Six Sigma….
    A rose by any other name would be just as beautiful. Six Sigma by any other name, applied with involvement and commitment, will deliver the results. Have faith, and push on cause the results take a bit of time to show thru.
    Have fun.

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    #110672

    Martin Schmalenbach
    Participant

    An observation:
    Freedom of speach – to express, to argue, for many of us a basic right – is not a guarantor of quality of speach and argument.
    A question for Phil:
    What have you seen, heard and experienced under the banner of ‘Six Sigma’ that has been so bad or unacceptable for you and/or others around you? I’m curious to know if it really is about the concepts and core tools associated with Six Sigma, or a very poor implementation.
    I agree with Phil that there are probably consultants doing an awful job and ripping people off. People are doing that with SPAM every day, but that doesn’t mean that email is inherently bad or can’t be used for huge benefits.

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    #110682

    Sinnicks
    Participant

    Great Forum!!  Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I wish every company would start using SS.
    I’m in the process of having siding and window done by Empire. They delivered 17 windows and 4 did not fit. Out of 3.4 DPMO I got the 3.4. 
    Just something to liven up the forum.
    Mark (Virgin Green Belt)

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    #110685

    frank m
    Participant

    Jack said “Take out the last 20% performers. They have no need to part of the culture.”
    One has to ask, why are these employees performing so low relative to others? What research/interventions has GE done to answer this question? 
    To be honest, I don’t trust jack very much…but that is just my opinion.
     

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    #110686

    JohnnyG
    Participant

    The great thing about 6 sigma is that you use facts and data to manage your business from a position of knowledge. From my experiences the tools and processes have been used to great effect and when we haven’t delivered what we wanted to its usually because we got the ‘soft’ skills bit wrong.
    Call it 6 sigma or anything else, the facts and data from many areas of business show that good process and good analysis delivers bottom line benefit.

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    #110691

    Mikel
    Member

    Phil,
    Very enlightening. What do you suggest to enable growth and effeciency strategies at your company?

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    #110694

    Mikel
    Member

    Special – this week only! Green Belt in a Box for those who think SS is a hoax. In only 32 easy interactive hours at your computer, you too can be a Green Belt.
    Topics include:
    Why you are wrong if you question instant gratification strategies by consultants and management.
    Why you don’t really need any of that messy experience and project work if you are willing to pretend to be a Green Belt….
    Contact RubberDude for pricing and delivery information.

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    #110699

    DaveG
    Participant

    …I should hope that people in management positions already have the skill sets to identify a problem/opportunity and then take action…
    It’s true – most of them know how to destroy value when they see it.

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    #110703

    Mikel
    Member

    If I can come and bring lasting value to an enterprise – am I entitled to be paid for it?

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    #110706

    A different Phil
    Participant

    Phil:
    Of course, depending who’s stuff you read, it can be a load of … There’s a lot of bad stuff out there….. Why so surprised????
    Everything is over rated. Reading for learning, exercising for a healthy body, even having people around for companionship. Why focus only on a hypothetical 240K return? Get what you can out of a project and move on…..
    Or is reading about it the only thing you’re familiar with?
    I still think there’s a lot of sad, tortured yellow belts, though.
    Another Phil
    I wanna give a shout out to all my old pal’s out there!!! You know who you are!!!!! Stop by and see me at the store!!!! A special on spraypaint till 6.

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    #110708

    Martin Schmalenbach
    Participant

    Bush won the election?!I wonder what the DPMO rating is for the Bush camp – or the Kerry camp?!Maybe it’s all a Si(ck) Sigma plot to subvert the western world…

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    #110709

    Mikel
    Member

    Yes it does appear that Bush did actually win this time. 1 out of 2 ain’t bad.
    PS – There is a gathering ground swell about tainted ballots in Ohio. You know it’s a shame all of those southern red neck type states can’t actually add 1 + 1.

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    #110710

    Martin Schmalenbach
    Participant

    Did Phil mean to title this”Six Sigma is a hex?”By the way, where is he?Selling Seven Sigma to an unsuspecting bunch of gullible CEOs perhaps?Now there’s an idea – maybe I could beat him to it, make my fortune….hmmmm!

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    #110712

    Sinnicks
    Participant

    My question is…..If we have people coming in and bashing Six Sigma why are they here?? And still here…
     
    Mark (Virgin Green Belt)

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    #110713

    billybob
    Participant

    Hello folks,
    Good old Phil doesn’t believe in the benifits of 6S so here is reseaching / complaining in a 6S site.  I think he’s a good o’ boy. He tossed his line out into the stream and all you trout bit for it.
    Later,
    Billybob

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    #110715

    Whitehurst
    Participant

    That is funny!
    Speaking from personal experience, Six Sigma is not just another ‘flavor of the month’ program.  I believe it contains all the best elements of past flavors (TQM, HPWT’s, and the like), plus additional useful tools.
    As far as savings, my blackbelt project yielded $1.1 Million in bottom line savings.  I have yet to complete a BB project that yielded less than $250K.
    You should look deeper, and expand your knowledge of Six Sigma.  This forum is a great place to start…
    Just the thoughts of one BB.

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    #110716

    Mikel
    Member

    I guess the same reason you have a need to tell us you are a virgin – what does your sex life have to do with it?

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    #110718

    Mikel
    Member

    You should try to get to 5 sigma before selling 7.

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    #110720

    Sinnicks
    Participant

    Thanks Stan 

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    #110721

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Farhad,
    That is a tired line of crap. Businesses fail daily with people offering things for sale that nobody wants. Because a consultant offers something for sale you think (or at least feign it) that a CEO feels obligated to buy it?
    How long do you think (my assumption) a Bossidy or Welch will continue to cut checks if you are selling hype and not delivering results?

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    #110722

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    frank m,
    “To be honest, I don’t trust jack very much…but that is just my opinion.”
    What does that mean? Did you lie to us in the first two paragraphs?
    I am sure Jack Welch is concerned over how much you trust him.
    Just my opinion.

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    #110723

    miranax
    Participant

    What seems interesting to me is that an acid comment by someone who craves attention (why else would ANYONE post something of this sort in the forum), has in fact gotten BB’s on the defensive…So far my company has saved a lot of money with Six Sigma, so why even argue with such a person?  Results speak for themselves.

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    #110724

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Billybob,
    Yeah, after watching this string for a while some of the comments just get to you. To quote Paul Sr. “some times you just have to get to the gettin’.”
    Regards

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    #110725

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Miranax,
    Billybob probably had Phil figured out, he was just trolling. It is that cacophony of BS that came after his post.
    Darth had a great response to this in one of those academic TQMers post a week ago.
    Didn’t you used to have a detective TV show back in the 70’s?
    Good luck.

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    #110726

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Jackk,
    You obviously didn’t read this nonsense before you hit the post button. When was the last time you think someone shoved something down a CEO’s throat and then they paid you for it. A marketing genious.

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    #110738

    Chris Seider
    Participant

    Phil,
    Nice stream of posts you started.  After reading all the posts so far–boy was I unproductive during that time (LOL), a few things come to mind. 
    For those who argue about size of projects, one must remember economies of scale are always in play.  If I have a product that’s irritating a customer and it’s only 5% of my volume, then the cost savings may not be 250k+.  Some would say I shouldn’t be devoting resources to that product because it’s only 5% of the volume.  I would answer that business objectives might dictate fixing a smaller fast growing product line first.  I have worked on similar projects for different facilities within the same division and have created 3x the savings at one facility compared to another just because of the economies of scale.
    Second, many argue that business would solve many of their problems anyways without Six Sigma.  I will state the power of a Six Sigma culture is the lack of acceptance of whimsical driven decisions and the acceptance of data driven decisions.  Just remember, how many meetings any of you attend that no concrete data is available when something is discussed?  Heck, how many meetings is the 2nd level pareto not available on an issue while AT the table?  Those Six Sigma companies are more likely to bring data to the meetings than those who aren’t.   
     

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    #110739

    Darth
    Participant

    Ok, you guys did it.  Based on some of the great posts, I have decided to leave BOA and go back into consulting.  Where else can I earn the money you are talking about for doing so little productive work.  Ok, so some of you thought that was what I was doing at BOA anyway.  Never the less, I bequeth any future defense of BOA to mjones and wish him luck.  Ok, so when do we start screwing the CEOs?  Hey RD, Carnell and Stans, any openings in your practice?  Oh Boy, the Vadermobile can’t wait to get a companion.

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    #110750

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Darth,
    You just answered what I needed to know.
    Regards

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    #156803

    AJ
    Participant

    so 3 years after this post – six sigma is no where near as popular as it was – in 3 more years it will be like dianetics & tom cruise
     
    cheers

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    #156804

    Fake Gary Alert
    Participant

    No

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