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8D problem Solving

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  • #28624

    Nicholas Richardson
    Participant

    I worked for Rockweel International for 11 years and then for Meritor after Rockwell spun them off. We used Global 8 D Problem solving but since Meritor is closing the plant I have been laid off and  am currently attending college. One of my courses is dealing with quality and human relations. I have been assigned to do a report on problem solving. Does anyone have any information on when and how Ford came up with the 8 D Program? I would appreciate  any help  in finding this information.

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    #71563

    Thiede
    Participant

    Ford  Contact for QS 9000 Requirements (8-D Corrective Actions included)
    Steve Walsh
    MD611/P.O. Box 1517C
    17101 Rotunda
    Dearborn, MI 48121
    313-845-8442

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    #71574

    Anonymous
    Participant

    I heard a rumor that Ford stole key components of 8D from Kepner-Tregoe.  Is this true? Did Ford properly license those elements?

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    #71630

    Annonymous
    Participant

    I have been at Ford for 10+ years now.  When I first arrived, they sent me to Kepner-Tregoe training for Problem Solving.  After about 4 years, we had to do it all again with the 8 Disciplines of Team Oriented Problem Solving (8D). At this point I’m qualified to teach 8D to cross-functional product development teams.
    8D used none of the same forms or terminology as K-T but many of the same concepts were involved. Brainstroming was still called brainstorming, but that term had already become pretty generic. The unique thing that was taught in 8D (but is regrettably rarely practiced) is to identify and confirm by experimentation the root cause(s) of a problem, after taking containment action but before proposing or implementing so-called “solutions”.    
    I’m pretty sensitive to copyright and intellectual property issues (I’m a writer and consultant in my spare time) and I would definately not say that Ford stole or mis-used any of K-T’s intellectual property in developing 8D.  Continued use of the intellectual property of external third party consultants who didn’t realize that they were producing  “work for hire” is a different question, and one on which I may well remain mute.         

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    #72475

    Eileen Beachell
    Participant

    Nicolas,
    I can help you understand the background of the 8D problem solving strategy. I wrote it for Ford. Let me know what questions you have and I will try to give you the background.
    Eileen J. Beachell
    Quality Disciplines

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    #72476

    Eileen Beachell
    Participant

    Wow! – this is really becoming an urban legend!!
    No- We did not steal any Kepner-Tregoe stuff. I wrote the material and resisted all attempts to do anything with KT material. The focus of the 8Ds was to get away from the touch-feely KT approach and stick with a data-based statistical assessment of the problem.
    A man from HR insisted that some KT material be included for reference. He had assured everyone that Ford did have a license to reference some of that material. A small section was placed in the appendix. This included a description of is/is not, etc.
    Once the manual was in print, KT who feels it owns any problem solving approach or strategy filed a lawsuit. The case was thrown out. There was absolutely not merit to this case and I suspect KT is propogating this to their own advantage. I can assure you that I did a lot of research before writing the 8Ds. It was based on the traditional statistical approach to data analysis and was not based in any way on the KT approach. Ford senior management was totally fed up with the KT approach and wanted a new data-based strategy. That is why I wrote it. KT has held companies to ransom for the last 35 years. There strategy is a poor one for an engineering/manufacturing based product. The 8Ds have become a standard they wish they had developed.
    Eileen Beachell
    Quality Disciplines

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    #72490

    lin
    Participant

    Since you developed the 8-D material, what are the fundamental differences between the 8-D process (properly applied) and the Six Sigma DMAIC process?   Unless I am missing something, I don’t see much real difference.   In fact, I think the 8-D’s focus on containment prior to resolving the root cause of a problem is a desireable difference.  Having worked for Ford for 10 years before leaving to work for a company involved in Six Sigma, I can’t understand why Ford changed horses.  From a shareholder perspective, there certainly hasn’t been any return to justify the millions paid to launch a Six Sigma initiative.  Wouldn’t that money have been better spent applying the tool that was already in hand?

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    #72492

    Brittain Ladd
    Participant

    I recently became certified as a Six Sigma Black Belt and I completed a Master Black course. In none of my training did the “8d’s” ever get discussed. What is 8d? Where can I find more information?

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    #72495

    Roy Calderon
    Member

    Ms. Baechell:
    I have been exposed to several problem-solving methodologies in the past (KT 8D, Goal QPC 7-step among others).  I can see very little difference between those methodologies and DMAIC.
    However, I think it is the integration of DMAIC (or DMADV) with a sound process control (ISO 9000, 14000 could fit in this part) and a management dashboard what makes the difference on Six Sigma implementation.
    Since you have deep understanding of both side of the coin, your comments and opinion on this will be very valuable. What extra value do you think SS add on top of other problem solving methodologies?

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    #74122

    Steve Milner
    Member

    Ford has long given the impression to third parties (primarily suppliers)that it has worthy tools….and they are! However, the message is more ‘do as I say, not what I do’, so suppliers become cynical  …and when Ford comes up with a new flavour the cynicism is reinforced. Not that they’re the only company like this…….!

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    #74193

    Annonymous
    Participant

    Steve –
    Ford even pulls the “do as I say, not as I do” on our associated firms (Mazda, Volvo, Jaguar,…)  per relatives and friend in those associated firms. With very few exceptions, G8D can do everything that 6 Sigma can do.  The major difference in practice is in the level of record keeping / reporting  required for 6 Sigma as it has been implemented within Ford.  It’s easliy 2-3 times more burdensome than the most stringent use of the 8D data bases ever was.
    The exceptions are in giving teams a lever with which to force managers and directors to explicitly acknowledge statistically-based (I originally typed “sound” – but that’s going too for) decision making, and root cause identification.  Unfortunately, too many people have the “when I have a new hammer, everything looks like a nail” thought pattern, and we get some really ridiculus mis-applications of statistical tools.
     

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    #74201

    Steve Milner
    Member

    Dear Anon,
    This sounds like good examples of ‘lies, damned lies and statistics’ (Disraeli) or ‘when you see data, doubt it’ (Ishikawa). e.g. there is are positive correlations between proficiency in maths and shoe size, or deaths by drowning and ice cream sales! Do you have any examples?

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    #76359

    anon
    Participant

    If anyone is interested in learning more about the Kepner-Tregoe, Inc. v. Ford Motor Company lawsuit, you need only obtain a copy of the Final Judgment which was entered following a settlement between KT and Ford in the Federal District Court of New Jersey. The case was settled in 1989. The case was NOT “thrown out” as suggested by Ms. Beachell. Ford was, in fact, enjoined from infringing, copying or distributing certain identified works of KT. Ford was also enjoined from using certain portions of the materials it had been using as part of its training program.

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    #97405

    Tom Irwin
    Member

    With all due respect to Ms. Beachell’s posting, the facts are somewhat different that what she has stated.  Kepner-Tregoe, Inc. did file a suit against Ford Motor Company.  The matter was subsequently settled with Ford alone.  The settlement does not apply to those who have used the 8D program outside of Ford.  In addition to the settlement, a Final Judgment was entered enjoining Ford from infringing upon certain Kepner-Tregoe works and enjoining them from using certain portions of the Ford TOPS program.  The Final Judgment is a public record.
    The case was not “thrown out” as stated in Ms. Beachell’s posting.
    Respectfully submitted,
    Tom Irwin

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    #132674

    David Samson
    Participant

    There are many robust problem solving methodologies….What you mentioned above are generic model for the novice only….real problem solvers work with pratical model for the processes……TRIZ , ASIT, Innovative Methods are some of them….Many of the generic problem solving tools emphasises too much on the process and the data collection tools and very little or nothing on the innovative methods of solving the ideas and development of new technical processes….

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    #132750

    Ropp
    Participant

    This is an amazing post and lots of energy.  TRIZ, 8D, and Six Sigma DMAIC all in a single thread. 
    Is there any source to understand the pro/con or trade-offs between the different tools?
    TRIZ is very interesting, yet would seem to be difficult to roll-out in a large environment.
    Would very much appreciate any help – we’re trying to select a program and implement this year
     

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    #139381

    Jack Chzerwong
    Participant

    Dear Eileen Beachell:
    Thank you for writing the 8D Gobal Manual….Where can I purchase a copy ? Can you or someone on this forum please reply to this forum where can I purchase a purchase a copy…How much?
     
    Jack

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    #139385

    Eileen
    Participant

    Jack,
    The 8D manual is copyrighted by Ford Motor Company. Copies are usually distributed in training classes. You might look for a class with a training company offering a problem solving class. I believe AIAG offers a problem solving manual without the training that should include some of the 8D material. Eileen
     

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    #139386

    Craig
    Participant

    One perception I have about KT problem solving is that interactive effects can be easily missed with this methodology.  In the manufacturing environments where I have worked, many of the problems were related to interactions. I saw KT fail 2 of 2 times after our training. In both cases, factors were ruled out and yet they proved to be part of a statistical interaction. Has anyone else had this perception or am I just hallucinating? Overall, I did like the KT approach but it had this deficiency in my humble opinion.
    HACL

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    #139388

    Anonymous
    Guest

    I agree with you HACL …
    KT is a great problem solving methodology because it uses differentiation, which is necessary to formulate any diagnosis. But as you say, if there is an interaction, or even a psuedo-interaction, KT will not find it.
    Cheers,
    Andy

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    #139401

    sixsigmadeewana
    Member

    I used 8D in my supplier quality days and I thought it is a great tool. The format we used was the EW8D and I think it is the best among the several different formats.
     

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    #139420

    Jack Cherzwong
    Participant

    Dear Eileen:
    Thank you for your fast response.. Will contact AIAG.
    Do you teach and conduct the G8D in USA ? Which location ? Please provide link to your G8D classes for those who are interested to attend your training..
    As an expert yourself in writing the G8D, what would you think would be the knowledge criteria of a person using G8D to solve problem…Must one have knowledge of SPC, DOE, Measurement System Analysis in order to be able to benefit from attending the course… How long should the a course be ?

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    #139421

    Anonymous
    Guest

    At Ford’s suggestion, some guys at Motorola SPS tried 8D and thought it rather limited.
    What are the ‘several different formats’ you’ve tried?
    (Sorry everyone but there is just too much BS on this site these days!)

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    #139425

    sixsigmadeewana
    Member

    andy
    I meant 8D in different formats.. Almost every supplier I worked with had a slightly different version to fit their requirements…and then you have the 7D format which has the same logic except one step…
    I wonder why Motorola thought 8D is limited.
     

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    #139431

    Anonymous
    Guest

    My apologies …
    To put Motorola SPS (Austin) into perspective – they became very successful and solved many problems using what we’d now call Lean Six Sigma through their close relationships first with Hitachi and then with Toshiba (Cherokee Project.)
    Unfortunately, the person who documented these successes and sold them to other companies neglected to mention Multivariate Methods (recognition of process correlation) Taguchi Methods (also used by many Japanese companies) and even some elements of TPS Lean – one-by-one confirmation.
    Given this background one can understand why there would be considerable interest in process characteristation using DOE – using  ‘classical methods’ or Taguchi Methods (visa vie incorporation of outer arrays and use of Taguchi’s signal-to-noise ratio to scale processes.) In this context it is not surprsing Ford’s 8D would appear as somewhat limited, which is the very point made by HaCl.
    Best regards,
    Andy
     
     

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    #139432

    sixsigmadeewana
    Member

    That is interesting. I would think that tools like DOE, taguchi or lean would be a subset of 8D. You would use tools like DOE, for example, in one of the 8 steps of 8D or 5s (Lean Six Sigma tool) in doing preventive action (another step in 8D).
    At the end, I feel it boils down to what an organization is comfortable with or finds sucess with. Its almost like a jinx. If a company finds sucess with a tool, they dont want to use another tool in the fear of losing.
    Anyways…
     

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    #139433

    Anonymous
    Guest

    When I first heard this complaint DOE was not taught as part of 8D. Of course, this is heresay, and since I did not attend this course myself.
    I learnt KT at Fujifilm.
    Cheers,
    Andy
     

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    #139439

    Craig
    Participant

    Hello Andy U,
    Just an FYI, I was indicating that KT was limited in the sense that interactions can be overlooked. I don’t see that as a limitation of 8D.
    The difficulty I have with 8Ds, is not the 8D itself. It is when a customer wants one for a single occurrence. Perhaps we made a part 3 years ago and it just failed, and now we have a team that has to go through the 8D process to fix a problem that hasn’t happened in 3 years. This kinda puts a blemish on the whole process!
    Any thoughts?

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    #139447

    Anonymous
    Guest

    HaCl,
    I agree the lack  of DOE training is a limitation of KT .. but I like their  approach to differential diagnosis. (I don’t know if this is included in the ‘what is’ and ‘what is not’ of 8D, since I’ve never attended a course.)
    The complaint I heard about the Ford’s 8D is it did not add any value to the Six Sigma skills already entrenched in the waferfabs.
    From my perspective, one of the most effective ways of solving reliability problems is through failure analysis. Failure analysis skills are quite specialised, yet don’t seem to be mentioned in any of the quality initiatives.
    Cheers,
    Andy
     

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    #139472

    Eileen
    Participant

    Jack,
    You can check out my consulting/training by googling “Quality Disciplines.”
    Most training I do is centered on specific problems and providing the appropriate methods as needed. The basis of the 8D’s problem solving is statistical thinking/methodology. Hence, it is assumed that you have implemented spc, measurement analyis, etc. This strategy was established based on a certain level of competence in statistical methods. In addition, it is also imperative for the management to be involved. What I run into lately is mostly companies with specific product problems that they just want them solved, usually ASAP. Often times the management is not part of the effort. Unfortuately, problem solving has to focus on those processes that allowed the problems to develop and then address the management systems that need to be improved. The problem is frequently just a symptom of a much greater concern.
    If you send me your email, I can send something your way without continuing to post on the forem.
    Thanks for your questions. Eileen
     
     
     

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    #139550

    Jack Cherzwong
    Participant

     
    Dear Eileen:
    My email is  [email protected],com    
    Thank you.

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    #141323

    Murray
    Participant

    Has anyone got a template for logging and tracking 8D programmes?

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    #174882

    Tierradentro
    Participant

    That quote is widely attributed to Disraeli, but it was actually Mark Twain that said it, and he said it was from Disraeli.  He was trying to be funny.  Disraeli never said that, or anything like it.

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    #174883

    Brandon
    Participant

    John, you’re responding to a 6 year old post….dude, you need to get a hobby or something.

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    #174890

    Bower Chiel
    Participant

    GentlemenIf you consult “Statistically Speaking – A Dictionary of Quotations” by Carl Gaither and Alma Cavzos-Gaither you’ll find that they give it as “There are lies, damned lies and church statistics” and attribute it to Disraeli.The majority of the quotations in the book are serious but some are fun e.g. “Variance is what any two statisticians are at” – or should “statisticians” be replaced by “isixsigma posters”?Best WishesBower Chiel

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    #174893

    Michael Mead
    Participant

    Bower, wow!
    That sounds like a great book. Do you actually have it?
    I would love to get my hande on one.  I may go to eBay.  I try to quote a lot of people here, and it is hard to find the quotes. 
    Which reminds me, I have one hanging from 3 weeks ago, where Deming said something like “If you take enough samples, your data will not fit any distribution”…that is paraphrased. I can’t find the real one any more.  Do you happen to know it?
    Regards,
    Michael

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    #174906

    Bower Chiel
    Participant

    Hi MichaelI do have the book. I understand that a kindle version is available. Please note that it deals with statistics in the wide sense rather than statistics for quality improvement. There are a few quotes from Deming in it but not the one you’re looking for. It does have one from R C Geary – “Normality is a myth; there never has, and never will be, a normal distribution”. This links with one of my own favourites from George Box – “All models are wrong; some models are useful”. Not in the book but inside the front covers, along with around 30 others, of the 2nd edition of Statistics for Experimenters.Best WishesBower Chiel

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    #174907

    Taylor
    Participant

    Just a couple of Gems from Deming that I personally like
    “You should not ask questions without knowledge”…….if only some of the posters on this site would follow this one.
    “When a system is stable, telling the worker about mistakes is only tampering.”
    “Lack of knowledge… that is the problem”
    “If you can’t describe what you are doing as a process, you don’t know what you’re doing”
    The last is my personal favorite.

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    #174908

    clb1
    Participant

    This has always been my favorite:
    ” In the space of one hundred and seventy-six years the Lower Mississippi has shortened itself two hundred and forty-two miles. That is an average of a trifle over one mile and a third per year. Therefore, any calm person, who is not blind or idiotic, can see that in the Old Oolitic Silurian Period, just a million years ago next November, the Lower Mississippi River was upwards of one million three hundred thousand miles long, and stuck out over the Gulf of Mexico like a fishing-rod. And by the same token any person can see that seven hundred and forty-two years from now the Lower Mississippi will be only a mile and three-quarters long, and Cairo and New Orleans will have joined their streets together, and be plodding comfortably along under a single mayor and a mutual board of aldermen. There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.”
      Mark Twain – Life on the Mississippi
      a number of places that cite this quote replace “science” with “statistics”

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    #174913

    Mikel
    Member

    My favorite -“Don’t go buying no ones answers if your questions are for free”From The Corn Won’t Grow, So Rock and Roll by Goose Creek
    Symphony.

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    #174914

    Sloan
    Participant

    While we’re posting favorite quotes, here’s mine:
    “Gozer the Traveler. He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!”
    – Louis Tully
    “Ghost Busters”

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    #174927

    BC
    Participant

    The last one sounds like a ripoff of Lord Kelvin.

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    #174939

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Chad,
    This is more of a general comment not necessarily directed to your post.
    When we all have our favorite Deming quotes why doesn’t anyone ever use the portion from his list of OBSTACLES TO IMPROVEMENT – the search for examples – examples teach nothing people are looking for answers to copy.
    That would knock about 10% of the posts off the Forum if people weren’t constantly looking for case studies.
    One of my favorite quotes:
    “When telling the world what you’ve learned, bear in mind that most people couldn’t give the remotest shit about what you’ve learned unless it qualifies as inside information under the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 or will help them get laid.”
    Jeffery S. Lisabeth, 49, Lloyd Harbor, New York (from What I’ve Learned: The Book)
     
    and:
     
    You can’t make footprints in the sands of time if you are sitting on your butt and who wants to make butt prints in the sands of time.
                                                                                      Bob Mowad

    Just my opinion

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    #174961

    Michael Mead
    Participant

    Hello Bower,
    I bought the book. According to the website, I bought the last copy that Amazon had.  Statistics: What are the chnnces? 
    Now, about getting it to China…
    Regards,
    Michael Mead

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    #175616

    Roger E. Rickey
    Member

    Nicholas,
    In 1964, I was a young Staff Quality Control Engineer at Ford’s Hardward and Accessories Division, located at the Rawsonville Plant in Ypsilanti, Michigan, where the 8 D fromat was originally incorporated at Ford.
    Mr. Hans Mattias was our Division General Manager and Mr. John Manoogian was our Division Quality Manager at that time. (Later, Mr. Lee Iacocca, in his first book, credited Mr. Mattias for coming out of retirement and turning Chrysler’s quality systems around.)
    Problem reports submitted to Mr. Mattias were usually  voluminous in nature and required a significant amount of time to present; and many times did not report the root cause of the problem, or give a definitive problem solution. Many problems, both design and manufacturing, would appear again, after the problem was reportedly solved. 
    In order to save problem review time, and to assure permanent correstive actions were incorporated, Mr. Mattias made an edict that all problems, and their solutions, would be reduced to a single sheet of paper.
    Mr. John Manoogian and his staff developed and incoporated the first 1 page problem reporting format called the 7 Step Problem Solving Method. The seven steps were:
    1. Prodlem Identification
    2. Containment Actions
    3. Short Term Corrective Actions
    4. Problem Root Cause
    5. Long Term Actions
    6. Problem Verification
    7. Cost (To incorporte the corrective action and cost saved by solving the problem.)
    The format was so effective that the Seven Steps became known as the Seven Disceplines of Problem Solving (or Seven Steps To Heaven) and was adopted at all Divisions of Ford. Ford also required that all supplier problems be answered in the 7 Step Format.
    Over the years that 7 step format was revised to where it is today, which now includes a team oriented problem solving approach.
    Hope this helps.
    Please send an e-mail to [email protected] if you would like further detail regarding the origin of Ford’s 8D system.
    Best,
    Roger E. Rickey
      

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    #175620

    kurtosis
    Participant

    I worked in a wafer fab, we used to have our 8D meetings in “THE RUBBER ROOM.”  Need I say more

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