iSixSigma

A Question II

Six Sigma – iSixSigma Forums Old Forums General A Question II

Viewing 19 posts - 1 through 19 (of 19 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #29290

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    I had a great time with Withheld’s “A Question.” I think a lot of people enjoyed the exchange more than the nonsense around what is the better program.
    This isn’t as technical a question as Withheld posed but one I thinkabout a lot when I am on this site. A lot of us try to offer advice on problems from various levels of adequacy of problem description. At one point I thought Honda had a policy “You are not allowed to talk about a problem unless you have seen the problem.” I re-read the book “Honda An American Success Story” by Shook. (Talk about shooting holes in cultural differences dicussions.) The concept of seeing problems first was discussed but not as a policy.
    I get value from the responses because I see different interpretations and different solutions ie the exchanges with Gabriel, Withheld, Annonymous and James A during this last week.
    The question:
    Are people getting value from the advice they are getting considering most of us have no first hand knowledge of the actual problem? Should we really be offering advice?

    0
    #74609

    Sambuddha
    Member

    I think it is a good topic to have exchanges on.
    I feel that it is impossible for a participant in this forum to know a problem mentioned here by some one from a different company in its entirety — first, because you are not there and second, because the collaboration capabilities of a bulletin board such as this is limited and fast sharing of information is cumbersome. 
    Still, people with different levels of familiarity to similar problems, and different depths of understanding, exchanging information and attempting to help others can be good for those seeking directions, insights and ideas, as long as we are ready to consider those advices as results of each individual’s “experiments with truth” if I may say that.(I am currently reading Gandhi’s Autobiography and thought the concepts are similar in certain ways).
    This is a great medium that provides one a glance at a cross section of the human knowledge on a particular subject (however small the cross section or the subject may be, however appropriate or inappropriate the information may be).
    This platform being an open one almost requires responsibility on the part of the participant to judge appropriateness before delivering advice and on the part of the recipient to accept a posted solution for its face value.
    There should be experimentation before adoption.
    As long as we exchange ideas based on issues and not necessarily based on our positions… I see more benefits than perils of offering advice on this forum.
    Best,
    Sambuddha

    0
    #74629

    Withheld
    Member

    It’s a small matter, Mike, but I need to correct the perception that I started the “A Question” thread to which you refer. It was not my thread – I just jumped in.
    I think I know where you’re coming from here, but I’m probably a poor source for an opinion. You see, I’m a 6S critic to a large degree. While I strongly endorse many of the underlying aspects of 6S (the things I comment on), I have some strong misgivings, too. Since 6S is the only game in town and since I enjoy the topics, this BB is the best fit for me to get my fix of quality discussion.
    I think most folks have enough sense to take weed through comments and take what they need from them. To the extent that discussion tends to promote thought, I suspect that comments/advice is helpful – if for no other reason than to kick-start the thought process.

    0
    #74631

    Hemanth
    Participant

    Well I feel any input is beneficial in one way or the other. Its like something is better than nothing..

    0
    #74632

    Subadya Ashken
    Member

    Mike:
    I would like to agree with the comments of the past.
    * Discussion leads to further thought and action (hopefully)
    * “Take it with a grain of salt,” as they say, should be employed in any forum where someone providing feedback does not know the full extent of the discussion topic
    * The diversity of experiences and thought in this forum is the best I have ever seen, anywhere
    Subadya

    0
    #74633

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Withheld,
    I do not have a problem with the idea of you or anyone else being a SS critic. If something has substance it should be able to withstand some criticisim (as long as there is some intelligence attached to the criticism). I have basically been following Joy Cowlings suggestion of ignoring the ones without any intelligence.
    I wasn’t as concerned with anyones advice in particular to SS. When I log onto the discussion group on lean.org the same thing goes on there.
    I thought the Honda idea was great when everyone is inside one factory. I have tried to adhere to it to a certain extent but this forum has changed my mind to a certain extent. I have seen a lot of different twists on solutions.
    There have been two responses you have made where you responded “reading between the lines …..” Those were what started me thinking about this. I have asked for clarification and it seemed that I was being way to cautious about trying to know everything about an issue before I said anything.

    0
    #74634

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    All,
    I appreciate the feedback. Six Months ago I would not have agreed but I do agree with you now.

    0
    #74636

    Withheld
    Member

    RE: “reading between the lines”… If my time in business has taught me anything, it’s that volumes are spoken between the lines. Indeed, I often find that the only worthwhile aspect of a comment is found between the lines. Tactful probing based on what you think the person is trying to say can lead a conversation in a productive direction.
    That instance in which the guy came on and called his company “wasteful idiots” was such an example for me. Although the conversation died, I would have enjoyed watching it blossom into  something from which people could get value.

    0
    #74663

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Withheld,
    I have stayed with the site support through most of the deployments. The hypothetical questions you get in a classroom drive me crazy. Consequently since we are primarly on site if you have a question you can go look – my “reading betwwen the lines” ability has atrophied.
    It was the same thing when you presented the gear slap. I went back to plating because I could not get a mental picture of the problem you presented.
    I worry about some of the responses I put out (sorry Calvin – I’ll try the other side of the bed tomorrow) I worry about what I suggest purely because if I have a poor mental image they can go a long ways down a rat hole.
    Some of the other guys in the string gave us absolution on that but I am still waiting for that email that says “You are the dumbest ____ ….”
    Just a thought.

    0
    #74671

    Withheld
    Member

    Among other things, your concerns are why I do not post my name, Mike. A typo, missed word or misinterpreted comment could lead to getting nailed with a negative comment. That would not be good since I’m sure some of the people reading these message are potential customers or suppliers of mine.
    For me, it’s enough that I intend well with my comments. Since I post on the fly, the chance for a mistake is real. By withholding my name I don’t forfeit credibility in the real world if I make an honest mistake.
    Some here might hope to expand their client base with their postings – a sales tool. I simply want to stay sharp, see other points of view and learn a few things along the way. That’s the value of this site for me.

    0
    #74695

    Gabriel
    Participant

    Mike:
    The first time I posted here I said something like “Do not take this as “the trutrh”. This is just what I think the truth is, and may differ from what you think”
    It is boring to re-write this in every message, but I hope that a frase like this is allways understood to be implied.
    Note that I post messages about things I feel pretty confident with, but also about things where I have just an opinion (sometimes a new opinion formed from a message just read above). I have something like a policy based on values:
    Be honest when you write: Express your real opinion. Give a “formal” advice only if you feel confident about your knowdlege or your experience on the subject.
    Be cautious when you read: Do not bet everything or take too much risk applying anything found in Internet (including here). Investigate. Try first. Make cross checks. There have been even fake medical scientific reports! Also be aware that even well intentioned people can be wrong, and that the ammount of help they can provide is, at best, proportional to the ammount of information they have about your problem (i.e. do not expect a lot of help from a question like “What is the best control chart?” without any further information)
    Be open minded: Be ready to accept that the other’s idea can be better than yours, or that two persons can think different about a subject without meaning that one is right and that the other one is wrong. There are very few truths as 2+2=4.
    Have fun (without violating the firs rule).
    Learn as much as you can.
    As a citizen of a country that is today seen by “the world” as the paradigm of the “banana republic”, this forum is a great opportunity for a person like me (that do not want to be a “banana person”) to be in contact with people like you, from all arround the world, speaking about Quality, which is my profession.
    I am happy that this forum exist, and I am happy I found it.
    Best regards,
    Gabriel

    0
    #74696

    Joy Cowling
    Participant

    I do a lot more reading on this site than responding.  I probably spend an hour a day here learning from the questions and responses I see posted.  I jump in with a response when I am sure about the message I am conveying.  I am a very visual person.  I have a very hard time giving anyone advice about a process that I haven’t seen.  I also have a hard time answering questions without a voice conversation with someone.  I have to ask about 3 questions before I feel enlightened enough to answer 1. 
    HOWEVER, I have gotten some excellent advice to my questions on this site.  There are some posters that I trust more than others.
    Overall, I think that some excellent help is provided on this site.  I would hope nobody that calls themselves a Six Sigma practioner would accept advice from someone at face value, without data backup and common sense.
    Just my opinion…
    Joy

    0
    #74702

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Gabriel,
    I am glad you are still around. I was afraid paired data had pissed you off so bad you were going to hang up.
    Good response. I do worry about the people who are looking for instant pudding. I think to effectively use the site you have to accept responsibility for sorting through the feedback and deciding what will work and what does not. The reason some of it scares me is if someone has not been trained well enough to understand they need to at least tell you if they have attribute or continuous data then what ability do they have to sort through the feedback?
    As far as the Banana Republic – don’t give it a second thought. The boundary lines are for politicians. The business world is becoming more boundaryless daily. You are evaluated on your merits to achieve results and it doesn’t have anything to do with geography.
    I have spent a considerable amount of time in Mexico. The Engineers that come out of Monterrey Tech are some of the best I have ever worked with. There were 5 of them at the Allied plant in Acuna in 95. They were scary smart. Geography doesn’t have anything to do with it.
    Thanks. Stick with it the world is waking up.

    0
    #74703

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Withheld,
    I think a customer that is so stupid that they would let a persons personal opinions affect business is a customer I don’t really want (that is the high ground). Unfortunately I believe in the real world you are correct.
    In the consulting trade I am sure I have truncated my possibilities because I have made it pretty clear how I feel about certain things. For me it is better to get it out up front because if I am with someone ina normal consulting engagement of 1-2 years there will be a time when they will hear it anyhow.
    I can live with your aka because you provide valuable answers. If the alias is for no other reason than they way some use it to make idiotic statements then I really would prefer we know the names so we can decide to selectively ignore them in business situations.
    Thanks.

    0
    #74705

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Joy,
    You are descibing the same issue I have. The site support role really kills off a lot of your need to interpret. When you can physically walk to the problem and see it, touch it, feel it, etc. it changes your way of doing business.
    Hope all is well.

    0
    #74711

    Joy Cowling
    Participant

    Mike,
    Things are going well (back to a more normal pace after a crazy few weeks).
    I’m always amazed that there are consultants who don’t include site support in the packages they propose.  You can get more done in 4 hours of site support than 16 hours of phone calls.  It just makes the real project issues more obvious. 
    Once I see a process, I can do a much better job of follow up advice (because then I have the picture in my head).  I attribute your ability to give advice on this stie to your extensive experience with the visuals.  One of the advantages of consulting is the exposure you get to see so many different processes.
    Joy

    0
    #74716

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Joy,
    AS the market has become more competitive the site support gets dropped by a lot of companies who are choosing to compete on price rather than quality (of knowledge transfer). They dump the days and the travel costs associated. If they took the cost and the savings and calculated an ROI they would quickly understand that the savings is large enough that the ROI is relatively unaffected by the additional cost. We have seen repeatedly customers who have tried to limit site support days come back and buy additional days. It is there that the real knowledge transfer takes place.
    Glad your doing well. Take care.

    0
    #74717

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Gabriel,
    Your comment about Things being your opinion. Iam a huge fan of Dennis Miller (US comedian) who does a show on HBO which includes his weekly “rant.” Also available in books (ISBN 0-385-47804-6 & 0-385-48852-1). He always concludes with “That is just my opinion. I could be wrong.” It has always seemed appropriate for some of the responses we provide.

    0
    #74725

    Gabriel
    Participant

    Mike:
    I appreciate your comments. I won’t hang up because of opinions that are different from mine. (third rule: be open minded).
    Then we have your concerns about a person without the ability to ask a question and without the ability to judge the answer. Well, this person has a serious problem even without our “help”
    About the Banana Republic, I couldn’t agee more with you. I also know many very valuable people from this and others Banana Republics (and also from not-banana republics). What I ment is that in places like this the resources are very limited. Your company will hardly send you to an important (expensive) training as Six Sigma, and if they wanted to do that, a respectable Six Sigma training will be hard to find here, so still they will not send you. You will rarely talk about state-of-the-art knowdlege in anything (including quality) with your collegues here. Then, the possibility to have access to a site like this and to be in touch with these subjects is specially important in a country like this (fifth rule: learn as much as you can).
    Finally, about Dennis Miller, it would be possible to put a big sign in this site reading “Warning: Measges posted here are just posters’s opinion. They could be wrong. Use them at your own risk” (fourth rule: have fun)
    Gabriel

    0
Viewing 19 posts - 1 through 19 (of 19 total)

The forum ‘General’ is closed to new topics and replies.