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anyone for shainin?

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Viewing 23 posts - 1 through 23 (of 23 total)
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  • #32057

    vidyut bapat
    Member

    I would like to know about companies which use / encourage shainin methods.
    I know Philips to be one of them.
    Is there any association of shainin practitioners?
    Vidyut Bapat

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    #85162

    Mikel
    Member

    Anyone who has been properly trained as a BB or GB has been taught Shanin tools – Multivai, Realistic Tolerancing, and Component Search as a minimum.
    I know of no Six Sigma person who would advocate ISO Plots as their use is so limited compared to MSA.

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    #85164

    SigmaGuy
    Member

    GM is the single largest user of Shainin that I know of.  They simply refer to it as the Red X Strategy.  Additionally, most of the Tier 1 suppliers that GM spun of and sold are still “Red X” practioners.  That is a good place to start.
    LS

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    #85166

    Mikel
    Member

    Sigmaguy,
    Not a real good endorsement for Shainin. $190 billion in revenue and basically no profit in years (spinning off things like Delphi doesn’t count).

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    #85167

    SigmaGuy
    Member

    Stan,
    It was not suppose to be an endorsement for Shainin.  I do not like the Shainin Technique.  I am a SSBB who left one of the GM spin-offs for that very reason.  They started SS but when bought by a holding company in bed with GM, they ditched SS and brought back Red X.  You are absolutly correct, no profit, the company was losing 120M yearly.  I bailed to a SS company.  I was simply stating that GM and its Tier 1 suppliers are a good place to look for companies that use Shainin.
    LS

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    #85168

    Schuette
    Participant

    Daimler Chrysler has successfully implemented Shainin (Red X problem solving and Green Y problem prevention).  See articles published in the Detroit Free Press on Wed, April 2, 2003 and the Oakland Tech News on April 14, 2003 for more info… 

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    #85170

    Mikel
    Member

    Jim,
    Also not a ringing endorsement for Shainin. Another company with huge revenue and no profit.

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    #85172

    SigmaGuy
    Member

    Stan,
    Again, your missing the point.  The root of the thread simply wants to know who is using Shainin.  I think we can all agree that Shainin sucks, including a friend of mine at the Cadillac Design Center.  I am sure anyone on isixsigma.com who has Shainin experience and SS experience will ring the same opinion.  Its a band-aid at best, and it don’t even stick.
    LS

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    #85175

    Mikel
    Member

    I didn’t miss the point. I want someone to bite on the ineffectivity of the Shainin “religion” – The tools and effective and valid – it is the rest that sucks.

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    #85177

    MB
    Participant

    I’ve personally successfully used Shainin tools at a leading-edge fiber optics company, manufacturing large networking systems and optical components. The Shainin tools are solid and work well in a manufacturing environment, if followed properly. Multi-Vari, component search, BvC, and Tolerance Parallelogram all are powerful in a fast-paced manufacturing environment, where quick, and accurate, results are needed.
    Refer: “World Class Quality” by Keki Bhote.
     

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    #85303

    vidyut bapat
    Member

     It seems Philips, GM, Daimler-Crysler + many others are using shainin. Thank you for your inputs.It is an excellent tool. The effectiveness of course depends on the person using them. One need not endorse one tool or the other. Each tool has its positive and negative aspects. One should use the right tool for the job and get over it.In my experience, when every other method fails, shainin has a good chance of success. it also means that chronic problems are a good target for shainin. At one tractor manufacturer, who had this particular problem for last 2 years and was unable to solve it.He asked if I could help. Shainin solved the problem in one week. However, As the shainin methods are so easy to use / and require very little training to apply, they are neither fashionable nor popular.However, there is no doubt about the effectiveness and everyone should use them to get results.I am using these tools for last 10 years and cant do without them.Vidyut Bapat

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    #85308

    Marc Richardson
    Participant

    Stan,
    Have you ever used the Shainin tools yourself? If not, please do us the courtesy of telling us how you formed such a low opinion of the tools. If people come on this forum and say they have had success using them, are you disputing their veracity? Perhaps your dislike of the tools is based on their lack of an academic/theoretical pedigree or negative personal experience.
    I have a problem with folks who blast other methods and techniques and don’t back up their statements. Show us your data.
    Marc W. Richardson
    Sr. Q.A. Eng.

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    #85310

    sqe
    Member

    I agree with Marc.  Stan spouts off but never backs up his words.   Proofs in the pudding.
    Nothing personal.

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    #85323

    Mikel
    Member

    Yes, I have used them and if you go back you will see I said they are good and effective.
    You ever taken a class from the Shainin boys? If you had, you would understand what I said.

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    #85324

    YF Gao
    Member

    Btw, anyone can give a brief introduction to the shainin methods? or provide any reference links? I am interested to know this method. Thanks!

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    #85334

    vidyut bapat
    Member

    Dorian Shainin the engineer pioneered these simple problem solving methods for use by everyone at his work place. Requires very little training and are common sense really.It will be quite a task to give an introduction in this forum, howeverYou can read Keki Bhote’s book – World Class Quality.

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    #85335

    vidyut bapat
    Member

    Marc,
    We seem to think alike.
    If it is ok with you,I would like  to exchange thoughts/ ideas off the forum . Where can I reach you?
    I am at [email protected].
    Vidyut Bapat
     
     

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    #85336

    Mikel
    Member

    Marc,
    My original post in this thread, since you seemed to have missed it –
    Anyone who has been properly trained as a BB or GB has been taught Shanin tools – Multivai, Realistic Tolerancing, and Component Search as a minimum.
    I know of no Six Sigma person who would advocate ISO Plots as their use is so limited compared to MSA.
    My point of the other posts is that although Shainin tools are effective, the companies that adopt Shainin as their primary improvement strategy generally are not. Most Shainin devotees are a pain to have on a team as they are as concerned with getting everybody to use the special Shainin language as they are with working with the team or solving the problem. When going to Shainin training, the trainers do the same and have no tolerance for any tool outside of their toolset. From your intolerance of me and your opinion based on not reading what I had said, you appear to be a good candidate for this type training.

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    #85340

    Schuette
    Participant

    Most of the discussion in this stream has been focused on Shainin Red X problem solving methodologies.  While it is an extremely effective tool, there is a lot of potential for the Green Y “problem prevention” and “Shainin Reliability Strategy” methods as well.  The problem with a establishing a forum, as any candidate that has attended Shainin training can attest, is that the methods are highly proprietary to clients of Shainin and are not published.  Students are required to sign highly specific confidentiality contracts when admitted to the program.  As a CSSMBB and certified Shainin Green Y Analysis Engineer, I find that there are benefits/value added of both methods (as well as others)… i.e. use the right tool for the issue at hand, strategically integrate elements of competing methodologies as appropriate (Green Y, DFSS, Taguchi, Triz.Axiomatic Design…), etc.  It is diffiucult for one to fully appreciate the value of Shainin without completing the extensive training program and actually demonstrating proficiency in the tools in a real world project under the guidance of a Shainin coach.   

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    #131181

    Paulo Franco
    Participant

    Jim,
    Hi!
    Could you inform your e-mail to exchange information of Shainin tools?
    Paulo Franco
    [email protected]

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    #131226

    Dog Sxxt
    Participant

    I did read the GM’s Shianin training material and found the method is quite useful. The tools used are not something strangely new to statisticians and engineers.

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    #131582

    Paulo Franco
    Participant

    Hi!
    Do you have some Shainin tools training material that you could send to me?
    [email protected]
     
    Best regards, Paulo
     

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    #131583

    Dog Sxxt
    Participant

    Unfortunately the material was translated into Chinese language by GM China. Besides, I do not distribute copyrighted materials without permission from the ower.
    The only English source fro Shainin method available for public members is “World Class Quality” by Bhote and Bhote.

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