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  • #34534

    ASQ BB
    Participant

    While I appreciate your point I do not agree. Going through all the projects I did, studying for the exam and passing it has been a tremendous learning experience and with the numerous requests for my services and the accolades other BBs and MBBs have offered having the ASQ certification was very well worth it. I would challenge that many companies have inherent variability in what is taught and used. I have seen some companies that have extremely lax standards for GB and BB. That was not the case with ASQ. I believe those who have not gone through it and who have not taken the exam should not provide an opinion on something they don’t know about.

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    #95288

    mman
    Participant

    ?

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    #95431

    Martínez
    Participant

    ASQ BB:
    Let’s call a spade a spade: ASQ certification is a joke and is degrading the Six Sigma community.
    This statement says nothing about your skills, and I’m sure you are very talented. But there are many more who don’t understand Six Sigma, can study a few books to pass the exam, are members of ASQ already, and get their CEO or other company suit to sign an affidavit. C’mon now. This is not a process, it’s a joke and it’s being exploited. I interview ASQ BBs everyday, and although I’ll run into the occasional qualified candidate most are throw aways.
     

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    #95433

    G
    Participant

    I have completed more than 20 BB projects before appearing in ASQ BB Exam and was already a certified black belt. Still it was not easy. It really tests you
    Mr. MBB, did you appear in the ASQ BB exam ?
    Merely interviewing candidates does not qualify you to pass this exam. Neither a person who is a slave of statistical package can clear it. Or you can not expect to pass by only reading books.

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    #95435

    Aspiring ASQ BB
    Participant

    Though I am tempted to, but I’ll refrain myself from taking a plunge into this discussion.
    I am aspiring to get BB certified from ASQ. Can someone share with me the mantra to success?
     

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    #95534

    Amit Agrawal
    Participant

    Its not six sigma way in which the responses are going on.
    Have you defined the problem.What are your ctqs youu are looking into candidate. what are gaps you find. what is desired level you look for.As for ASQ process what are the points the can cover and they can not. There are companies who have taken six sigma just name sake. One can judge candidate for 3 things. Aptitude , Knowledge, Skill. Aptitude and knowledge can be judged thru exams. But application Skills are still to be checked.
    Apart from this as you are MBB you should also check your evaluation process. Can conduct an R&R.
    Being a Honest six sigma practioner making such comments and challanging on emotinal grounds is again a violation of basic theme of six sigma.
    Lastly Thomas Alva Edison was no doctorate in science (not certified)but he gave the world the one of the best scientific invention ever.
    Happy practising
    Amit
     

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    #95535

    ASQ BB
    Participant

    Aspiring ASQ BB-
    The best advice I can give you is to not listen to MBB. I bet if he took the exam right now he would probably not pass the first time. Many do not. Keep in mind, it is not about the exam. Six Sigma is so much more than being a stats whiz. Focus on the various tools, how to use them, when to use them and apply them in real world settings. Learn the people side of change. It will be the most challenging. And, from MBB’s response, he may not have those skills.
    Hope it helps.

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    #95536

    Prof.Vedu Mitter
    Participant

    I have done successful Six Sigma Projects both at Stategic and Operations level and prepared well and got through the ASQ exam in the first attempt. I do think the effort was worth it, despite my 36 years of business and academic experience. ASQ has tried to standardize the body of knowledge for Six Sigma professionals. Those who misuse the affidavit cannot detract from the value of genuine ASQ certification. Those who talk glibly of ASQ certification must first appear for the exam and see where they stand.
    Prof.Vedu Mitter, MBB

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    #95544

    Hartshorn
    Participant

    Over the past few years I have hired a number of BBs. I see resumes with all kinds of claims of being a professional BB. Many applicants have a “BB Certification” from their employer but do not possess adequate BB skills nor have they completed and fully documented BB projects. I had a fork lift driver claim to be a BB because he participated on a project team!
    I do not believe the ASQ BB Certification was meant to say that ALL other Certifications are worthless and theirs is the best. ASQ is just providing another means to help employers assess someone’s BB skills. No one would ever hire someone on the basis of a piece of paper without a personal interview. That is the time to assess skills with a series of well constructed questions.
    As a seasoned (another term for old) Quality professional and MBB I took the exam to determine its value and found it to be comprehensive and another piece of the “evaluation pie” when hiring BBs.
    Guy
     

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    #95545

    Martínez
    Participant

    You people really do live in your own world. Yes, I took the BB exam and passed it the first time. It is a comprehensive written test. That is not the point, and that is why you will continue to miss the point no matter what people say.
    Let me phrase it to you this way. Did Jack Welch — realizing that he needed to revolutionize the way GE does work — go to the ASQ president and say ‘I need 20% of my employees to be Black Belt certified, and I need your help in hiring qualified candidates.’ No, he did not. He realized that he needed to take his best employees and train them because they are people of action, not people of certifications.
    My point earlier was that most of the “certified BBs” from ASQ cannot lead, facilitate, or deliver results like the people within our organization. The mere fact that they require an affidavit as proof of “successful” leadership, facilitation, and delivery of bottom line results is proof that their certification lacks any real-world, credible evaluation.
    Businesses don’t care if you have certificates — they care if you can deliver results. Most people that used to have a Six Sigma certificate could deliver results — that’s why you now see ‘must be Six Sigma certified’ stamped all over job postings. Soon, it will become so diluted from paper certificates that those hiring will have to do even more work to differentiate in the first round of hiring/screening.
    Deliver results, don’t deliver paper certificates. Get it from the business perspective, not the ASQ perspective. Think outside the box for once. Think like your customer for once.

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    #95546

    Mikel
    Member

    Amen brother.
    I passed on the first sitting as well – in about an hour.
    I put the most mediocre examples I could come up with on my application as well and it flew right through.
    ASQ is in it for the money – don’t kid yourself.

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    #95550

    Lisa
    Participant

    There is no substitute for the successful application of six sigma methodologies; however, to describe any ASQ certification as a joke is inaccurate & shows ignorance. Even a tenured six sigma professional can benefit from the review & preparation for the ASQ’s CSSBB exam. The BOK is comprehensive & well-written. Like any seminar or multi-week certification, the ASQ certification does not stand alone in providing the necessary qualifications for hiring a six sigma black belt. A strong candidate must demonstrate verifiable success in the application of SS for both defect-reduction & financial improvement. When combined with the ASQ certification, a savvy hiring manager will know that the candidate’s breadth of knowledge goes well-beyond one or two successful applications. The ASQ always welcomes industry advice as to how any of their certification programs can be improved. I encourage anyone who ‘throws stones’ to throw them with examples of how the ASQ’s program can be improved.

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    #95551

    MP
    Participant

    Experience is the only thing we look for when interviewing six sigma types/black belts.  It takes as much common sense as it does book sense to be a “black belt”.  Put someone in the field for a few years dealing with real operational issues, and solving problems and you can call them a “turbo charged black belt”.  Keep the certification process for lifetime students, or corporate office personnel who have no clue about everyday problems and issues.

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    #95552

    Joe Sener
    Participant

    I found MBB’s comment frustrating and I could not tell which comment to respond to so I hope that many people read this.
    I use CSSBB not as a ticket to pass for BB’s but as part of the whole package for MBB. We try not to hire BB’s (although I am sure there are some cowboys here that do it anyway).  BB’s are grown given experience and proven skills. Once they have completed their projects at our company we can grade their competence. We would not consider signing an affidavit unless the projects were real and meaningful.
    The exam and certification is the last step toward professional recognition. Keep in mind that anyone can corrupt a good idea. It takes the balance of the profession to make it stand for something.
    I found the exam to be a good test of the body of knowledge. I found some ASQ tests for other certifications (years ago) to be less rigorous but was pleased, looking back, on the difficulty of this certification process. I too have been at this for a long time, this one is a keeper.
    Joe

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    #95559

    keyes
    Participant

    All,
    As an aspiring ASQ CSSBB (exam next month) I wanted to make a couple of points in response to the initial post.  First, some of the statements made are factually correct and understood as inherent in any certification process.  For example, yes, it is possible to have someone sign off on project experience that has no basis in fact (this is up to the business ethics of that individual – I’m not sure how to improve this) but with many companies, Universities and other organizations offering some sort of certification – how is anyone to really judge (especially if the person judging has no relevant experience in Six Sigma)?
    I came from the IT industry and have been utilizing Six Sigma principles (without appreciation or official training) to understand and measure business processes, identify improvement opportunities and implement solutions.  Even so, I would never claim to be anything other than an entry-level BB (if I pass) or GB (certified already – if I don’t).  To assume otherwise would be similar to an newly minted MCSE assuming he/she was more qualified than a seasoned computer pro without certification, right?  Yet, how many times do you see MCSE listed as a qualification on job postings (because the interviewer doesn’t have the knowledge) in place of true credentials?
    So, if your point is that a freshly certified ASQ Black Belt is not necessarily an adequate replacement for someone with many years of experience (with or without a belt) – I absolutely agree but this is hardly a revelation.  If your point is that ASQ needs to improve its certification process then please make a suggestion to ASQ.  In a world in which everyone seems to be able to bestow belts, at least ASQ provides some structure to the process and an employer should be reasonably certain that the ASQ Black Belt has some “technical” knowledge w/respect to Six Sigma.  From that point they need to judge adequate experience to fill the role in question just like any other position (i.e. no different than a CPA, MBA, CFA, MCSE, PhD, etc…).
    Please don’t deny me the opportunity to gain some basic credibility that will enable me to take advantage of opportunities to further develop my skills in “the real world”.

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    #95560

    Martínez
    Participant

    Lisa,
    I have voiced my concern at many a local ASQ branch meetings. Nothing is ever done. I have not been interviewed/survyed by ASQ as a customer. I’m of the opinion that even if I was, my suggestions would go unheard. I open up the discussion to ASQ right now: to whom should I direct my feedback for improving the system?
    Now on to your points:
    1. You said, “Even a tenured six sigma professional can benefit from the review & preparation for the ASQ’s CSSBB exam.” Give me the name and phone number of any business professional who spent the past 24-26 months as a BB before going back into the business who thinks that ASQ certification has any value for them. It doesn’t. If you’re talking about a full-time CSSBB who is going to spend the rest of their life as a CSSBB you’re missing the point. Although there are people like that in Six Sigma, they’re a minority. CSSBB should be the best people in the business, get trained, delivery extraordinary results, then go back into the business to lead others. That’s the success model, not what ASQ is doing.
    2. You said, “When combined with the ASQ certification, a savvy hiring manager will know that the candidate’s breadth of knowledge goes well-beyond one or two successful applications.” That’s the point. ASQ should stand behind their certification and say ‘this person is qualified, period.’ Qualification by ONLY a rigorous exam is insufficient. Real world application and proof of that application is a REQUIREMENT. Ask ASQ why they’re not doing this. It’s because this type of review doesn’t fit their “model” for certification. You can’t teach an old dog new tricks.
    In addition, there are many companies that are relying on ASQ certification as a defacto. These companies may not be doing Six Sigma yet, and relying on ASQ may lead to failure on their part.
    3. This is a public forum open for vigorous discussion. I welcome ASQ to step into the discussion and voice their opinion. Are they above us “practitioners” or are they just without defense?

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    #95561

    Martínez
    Participant

    MP,
    I am in full agreement. I have seen hourly workers that excel in leadership and teamwork, who know the right BBs to go to for the statistical help, that deliver more savings than many new BBs. If they had to pass a written test on Six Sigma, I feel they may not pass. But isn’t delivering bottom line or top line results for the business the most important factor?
    I think a lot of quality guys tend to lose track of the fact that we’re in business primarly (but not entirely) to make money. I know that ASQ is a not for profit, but if they continue not to satisfy the needs of corporations around the world, they’ll go the way of many other companies.

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    #95563

    Paul R. Perez
    Participant

    To: Aspiring ASQ BB
    As a certified (by my former company) SSBB I have applied for a BB position outside my company. Most often the perspective employer requires you to be ASQ certified.
    I can make arguments for both sides of this issue. I will refrain from doing that an simply remine you to listen to “VOC” . If he requires you to have a ASQ certification and it gets your foot in the door why not use it to your advantage and at the same time satify his requirements.
    Just remember your metal as a qualified SSBB will soon be tested. The question is will you be up to the challenge.

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    #95564

    sweettalker
    Member

    Let me see if I understand this… Amit is saying we should apply Six Sigma methodology to determine whether ASQ certification has value.
    MBB and others are saying that CTQs for BBs are real defect reduction and bottom line benefit. MBB doesn’t believe there’s a statistically significant correlation between ASQ certification and these desired results. Amit suggests that there are three measurable qualities available in order to predict the likelihood of desired outcome – aptitude, knowledge, and skill, and that our evaluation process can result in defects (hiring of unqualified BBs or turning away qualified BBs).
    I believe Amit is correct that SS tools can help resolve the question, but we need to look a little deeper. Aptitude (natural ability), knowledge, and skill may have some correlation to likelihood of success, but we need to look at other factors as well.
    First, skill is simply the interaction between aptitude and knowledge (conscious and unconscious). Experience doesn’t equal skill – it’s simply one way of gaining the knowledge. Depending on one’s aptitude, one may acquire a skill after a little experience, or only after extensive experience, Sometimes, people can even do something right from the first attempt after reading it in a book or seeing it on TV, with no actual experience needed to learn the skill. Because of skill’s relationship to aptitude and knowledge, we don’t necessarily need to measure it in addition to aptitude and knowledge, if we can adequately measure aptitude and knowledge. Or, to meet MBB’s CTQs, we don’t even need to measure aptitude and knowledge separately if we can just measure skill, which MBB doesn’t believe ASQ does.
    What about other key inputs? One may have all the required skills but not have the attitude or motivation to apply them. What about non-Six Sigma skills? Doesn’t a person need some knowledge of a particular business, and the ability to effectively lead and communicate with people within an organization? It seems to me that this will greatly affect the candidate’s ability to get results. However, because (I believe) there is a significant interaction between the company/culture and the person, no outside certification can guarantee a candidate will succeed in your culture.
    In conclusion, it’s possible that ASQ certification could predict whether a person can be an effective BB in some organization, without accurately predicting success within your organization. As Amit suggested, ASQ tests could measure aptitude and knowledge. If you really want a Six Sigma process for evaluating candidates, however, you’re going to need to have better meaurements of your company’s culture and other characteristics, as well as of candidates’ characteristics outside their knowledge of and skill with the SS BOK.

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    #95565

    keyes
    Participant

    Well said – there are so many factors that will determine the success of a BB in any organization – “one man’s garbage may be another’s treasure”.  To me, the most important qualifications may well be leadership skills, group facilitation/communication skills, project management skills – along with basic Six Sigma methodology knowledge (as opposed to advanced or engineering based statistical skills – unless, of course, you are an engineer or applying SS to an engineering situation).  Most statistical experts that I have met couldn’t lead a person to the ocean from the beach because they would be so busy calculating probabilities given that scenario that they wouldn’t simply bring the person to the water. 
    The ASQ SSBB simply provides indication of baseline SS methodology knowledge.  An individual’s practical experience, leadership/communication skills and fit for the organization are best determined through the interview process –  and don’t require Six Sigma knowledge to ascertain.

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    #95574

    DaveG
    Participant

    Your reasoning, while valid, stops short of root cause analysis.  Why does any organization need a bunch of “Star-bellied Sneeches” fixing its processes?  That’s like kidney dialysis for a healthy patient.  The reason is the Leadership lacks whatever it takes (intelligence, creativity, motivation) to transform the organization from within.  For the last 10 years, I have almost single-handedly delivered whatever transformations occurred while my bosses neither supported me nor interfered.  I got ASQ certified to get a Star on my belly and have learned to be far more selective about my employers.

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    #95575

    Carter
    Participant

    I am a little puzzled by this topic.  I have been considering taking the test to become BB certified to address many of the current ads in my field requiring the certification.  I have a masters degree in engineering and an MBA, although I do not have the certification.  I would like to find a respectable organization and submit myself to their test to see if I have mastered the knowledge and techniques. 
    I do not want to find the lowest hurdle to jump, I want the certification to mean something to me and the companies I work for.  Are you saying that ASQ’s certification is meaningless, no value, or that certification in general adds no value?  If not ASQ, then who would be a respectable choice to seek certification from?
    Thanks,
    Carter Lancaster
     

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    #95578

    DaveG
    Participant

    ASQ Certification proves that you can pass a test of comprehensive SS BOK.  It will be valued by some, rejected by others, and costs you very little, but you must do at least 1 project first.
    More important:  Do you know what BBs do?  Are you capable of doing it with or without a certification?

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    #95591

    Martínez
    Participant

    Sweettalker,
    I commend you on your post. It does characterize what I meant, although sometimes I may not have been as clear as possible. Don’t get me wrong, I do think that knowledge to a standardized BOK is important also, but we need to remember that businesses want to see improvements not certifications.
    I think ASQ’s benchmark is too low and they need to take a serious look at their process for qualifying CSSBBs — qualifications that should include leadership, facilitation, teamwork, BOK knowledge and proven application with results.
    Am I asking too much? Well, maybe they’re not the best organization to be doing certification then. If I am not asking too much, I challenge ASQ to step up to the bar. And I encourage other practitioners not to be silent bystanders on this issue.
    MBB

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    #95595

    DaveG
    Participant

    A very reliable source told me that he and several other people developed the BOK and showed it to ASQ, which co-opted it without their approval.
    Perhaps this community can do better than ASQ?
    MBB, since you thought of it, you should coordinate this project;  otherwise I will.

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    #95615

    Tim W.
    Member

    I did both Honeywell BB certification and ASQ certification (ASQ first, then Honeywell). I can honestly say that the business was a harder review than ASQ in totality. The exams were similar, but when you’re interviewing for a job interviewers want to see results as MBB said. I think the emphasis is backwards in ASQ.
    Just thought I’d add my 2 cents to the discussion.

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    #95621

    Avlash
    Participant

    Help me understand…
    1. Does this discussion intend to raise doubts about :
    a) ASQ’s certification process ?
    b) Level of Question in the ASQ’s CSSBB Exam ?
    c) Credibility of ASQ certified Six Sigma Black Belts ?
    OR
    2. Does this discussion intend to enlighten people about the fact that :
    ‘Just clearing the CSSBB Exam from ASQ or for that matter any other certifying agency does not garuntee that that the person would be able to deliver Business Results’
    If it is 2… then point well taken… a lot of people and companies would already know this and thats the reason they would take interviews or other tests or ask for previous performance… all these things that the companies would also try and judge the person on leadership skills etc…
     
    If it is 1, then I am not sure if the person commenting is an authority on this. The customer for the exams would be the organisations who intend to hire Black Belts. And it is only they who can have the last word on the subject…
    Take Care till then…

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    #95623

    comoss
    Participant

    SS folks and all those concerned with this issue,
    Whatever we discuss here in this forum, debate among ourselves, the truth is ASQ will still continue to with certification. All that we can do, I feel is that request ASQ to change the certification title and content. It should not mention “GB or BB certificate” or “Certified GB / BB”. It should mention about successfully appearing GB/BB exam and has only acquired knowledge that can be applied to the area of work.
    It should simply be “Six Sigma Green Belt BOK certified” or “Green Belt Buddy” or any other of this sort. The title may look as funny as MBB has mentioned but that’s the possible practical alternative that can be implemented if ASQ and all other institutes collectively wish for their own good.
    Otherwise, we have to Grin and Bear, Certification will keep degrading the entire Six Sigma community and BB/MBB credibility will be lost for sure.
    Time to seriously think, isn’t it? More important, such institutions should think of long term success and growth of Six Sigma which can bring them better revenues than trying to cash themselves providing such certificates and taking advantage of the demand for Six Sigma certified people in every type of industry.

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    #95626

    G
    Participant

    1)      In any domain, it is about knowledge and application.
     
    2)      You can acquire the knowledge and then apply the same in real world situation.
     
    3)      Or it might be the other way round – you carry out an improvement in real world situation without being much aware of the concept behind it. With this kind of scenario, you acquire the knowledge to the extent that, if this is the situation, this is what you need to do.
     
    4)      The ASQ Certification is an assurance that you have proven your certain level of knowledge in a defined BOK.
     
    5)      Does it guarantee that a ASQ Certified BB will be successfully implementing Six Sigma in a company. Now the question is – Is  there any other certification that can guarantee the same ?
     
    6)      There are hundreds of factors which dictate the successful Six Sigma implementation in a company. Similarly, equal or more no. of factors will determine the personal success of a BB in company. I have seen the most successful MBB from one of the Six Sigma pioneers becoming a dismal failure after shifting to a new company.
     
    7)      So, does ASQ certification help ?
     
    8)      Yes – first, it would help you to scaling up your knowledge. It assures that your basics on Six Sigma are clear. Application is left to you and the company.
     
    9)      Let me quote one example. I had completed more than 20 BB projects and was already a certified BB before taking this exam. However, preparation for the exam helped me to look into some areas which I really did not pay much attention earlier. With the application of few of these concepts , I have just led a project where the cycle time in a service process has been reduced from 22 days to 2 days resulting in substantial savings.
     
     

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    #95629

    Cone
    Participant

    G,
    I’m not going to get into the ASQ fray, but I thought two things you said are worth challanging –
    – Your contention is there are hundreds of factors which dictate success wither of a corporation or a person. Your Six Sigma experience should tell you different. While there may be hundreds of factors, only a handful are important. Just like a Six Sigma project! Truth is this is like opportunity counting, only a handful of things must go right, but there are hundreds of ways it can go wrong.
    – Your example is two separate statements. One, you learned while preparing for the exam. I believe that and this is perhaps the only good reason for taking the exam. Two, you just ran a successful project that at least from your metrics looks like a Lean project. Are you telling us that you did not embrace Lean concepts in your first 20 or so projects and now, because of your exam preparation, you can run a Lean project? If so, your training as a BB was deficient and I am glad the prep for the exam took care of that.

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    #95630

    comoss
    Participant

    Dear G,
    I would still keep my points for the good. Let the community decide. If you need to conduct a survey on ASQ certification, I urge Benchmarking guys to take the initiative and start one.
    You have not got the concern properly.
    You are right in saying “The ASQ Certification is an assurance that you have proven your certain level of knowledge in a defined BOK”
    Please look at the other side. Many companies are stating requirement of certification without being able to distinguish between true certification through results (as to whether GB/BB has worked upon projects and demonstrated results) and ASQ certification (giving only assurance that he/she has proven certain level of knowledge).
    The issue is – there is unpleasant situation when BB with certified results is rated the same as BB with ASQ certification. And that is the truth ! It is affecting the credibility of BB.
    I respect your comments but still…
    BTW, I am not ASQ certified. Secondly I have also done several (4) BB projects (ofcourse not 20, though have mentored 60+ BB/GB projects to successful closure). If you are a constant learner then anyway you can acquire the knowledge covered in BOK. You have already did 20 projects. And BB projects are of longer duration. I am sure in this case you must have applied techniques and tools and management approaches that are far beyond the scope of ASQ BOK on the better side.
    I can only agree with you that the certification can be a good personal motivator. And that’s all. But…
    But would really want to see the title changed. It should not be “BB / GB Certificate” in anyway.

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    #95631

    comoss
    Participant

    Well said Gary !
    I missed out the last part of your post.
    20 projects and still not covering ASQ BB BOK?
    That’s surprise !
    So G, pls be on the other side and stop promoting ASQ Certification. I believe they have credit and capability in imparting and educating in so many other areas. Just need to “rename” from “certification” to for example “exam results” or other title is all they need to do.

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    #95638

    G
    Participant

    (1)  No certification in the world can assure that you will be successful in Six Sigma implementation. More than the personal skill and attribute , there are other factors which lead a Six Sigma initiative to success.
    (2) Does completion of 20 projects  mean that you are a master in whole ASQ BOK ? If you think so, You guys are living in fool’s paradise made of your presuppositions. I have used techniques as “Po”  extensively. Is it in ASQ BOK ?
    (3) Let me reiterate,  ASQ Certification assures that your basics on Six Sigma are clear. Application is left to you and the company.

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    #95655

    Ren
    Participant

    Comoss,
    Agreed. ASQ should be referring to their program as a “BB Knowledge Certificate”, not a “BB certification”.
    If they want to label it a certification, then they need to break their paradigm (which is obvioulsy caused by their beaurocracy) and survey real practitioners from industry. Surveying their own “certified BB base that is in industry” is a bad data set.
    Ren

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    #95661

    Hermann Wursterer
    Participant

    You know those times when you are waiting in the exam room before the physician or PA comes in? – and you notice the diploma or state license hanging in a frame on the wall?  Aren’t you just a little glad to know the guy meets the minimum requirements to practice medicine?   That’s all it is.  That’s all it means.  Whether he’s any GOOD at it is a completely different subject.

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    #95663

    Martínez
    Participant

    Greg your missing the point. ASQ certification will NOT gain you credibility. In fact as a hiring manager i would look at your resume with some disdain when seeing ASQ on it (sorry). They just messed up early on by bashing six sigma and then jumping on board at the last minute, at which point they said that “they” were the six sigma authority.
    ASQ has authority in other areas, but they lost it with Six Sigma

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    #95666

    keyes
    Participant

    MBB,
    I do understand your point but, fortunately or unfortunately, it does carry some weight or it wouldn’t be of any value.  My point was this – it carries as much weight as an MCSE does in the computer field.  As someone with knowledge in this area I would dig in real deep with a candidate who showed that credential but little experience.  I would expect the same of you as a hiring manager.  The certification might get me an interview (if everything else looks good on my resume) but it is then your responsibility, as a hiring manager, to find out if I can back it up.
    Trust me, I’ve been in your shoes with the MCSE (and other computer related certifications).  No standardized test can possibly replace the value gained from experience.  I can guarantee you this – my work ethic, positive attitude and aptitude will make a difference (which is what I look for in any candidate).

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    #95668

    Martínez
    Participant

    but thats just it, I wouldn’t dig any deeper. ASQ certification would tell me that your not really “in” the six sigma community or you would have known better. I would prefer your cert came from one of the consultancies that practice in the industry OR a solid company practicing Six Sigma.
    and I see your confusion, I am not the MBB in earlier posts.

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    #95671

    Lisa
    Participant

    New MBB:
    Sounds like you’re in the Six Sigma training business to me, promoting organizations other than ASQ for any worthy training. It’s clearly in the best financial interest of the Six Sigma consulting/training firms to bash ASQ. It means more $$$$ to them.

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    #95673

    keyes
    Participant

    New MBB,
    Please do explain to me what I’m missing – for my benefit as well as that of others who have read your comments. 
    Prior to arranging for the exam I contacted a number of MBBs (including MBBs at IBM, GE and J&J) to seek their opinions on certification.  Each person highly recommended ASQ certification AND each one said that the merits of ASQ certification ranked second only to that of few companies (such as Motorola and GE).  I can assure you I didn’t take this step lightly.
    My point is simple, many serious practitioners do take ASQ certification seriously.  The fact that you don’t doesn’t mean that certification is worthless.  Like any other certification or degree – it’s only as good as you make of it after the fact, right?

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    #95674

    keyes
    Participant

    Lisa,
    Good point – I think you are on to something!

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    #95675

    SSNewby
    Member

    Greg,
     
    There are some really some odd thoughts in this forum.  Folks get into a passionate and polarized either/or position regarding ASQ certification.   Why does it matter a hoot whether or not a person wants to get ASQ Six Sigma certification?   The Six Sigma capability of anyone is obviously a combination of classroom and textbook knowledge, field practice, and personal characteristics and abilities.   If you think that is not the case for any profession, I believe that you’re greatly mistaken.   It’s the totality of your knowledge and ability that’s important and makes you valuable to an organization.   
     Unless, of course, you feel that poorly prepared Six Sigma practitioners will cause employers to devalue the contributions of Six Sigma eventually sounding its death knell.   If that’s your concern, say it and let’s talk about how to assure overall Six Sigma competency and contribution, versus hammering on someone who wants to demonstrate that they have learned enough to pass a test – a test that’s detailed and rigorous enough to demonstrate a basic understanding of the field’s subject matter.    I have not taken the test.  I might or I might not.   But, if I do take it, it will be because I want to and not because someone else feels one way or another about it.   And I’d encourage anyone thinking about taking the ASQ certification test, or frankly, thinking about doing anything, to think about it in the same way.

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    #95677

    keyes
    Participant

    SSNewby,
    I think we agree – did you mean to respond to the person I had responded to?  I ask because you addressed it to me and, essentially, asserted the same opinion I did in my various posts on the topic (which, by the way, I appreciate!).
    Thanks!

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    #95679

    SSNewby
    Member

    Greg,
     Yes, I meant to reaffirm or second your pragmatic position.  But I got on a roll and sent it to you rather than the person you were responding to.   My point was, and is, that what matters is what level of contribution you (the generic and global “you”) can make to an organization and many factors contribute to competency – let’s not pick one small element of that composite and beat it to death. 

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    #95688

    comoss
    Participant

    Greg,
    Lets stop this.
    All that the Six Sigma community would like and would welcome is change in the title on the certificate, from “BB Certified” to what Ren  has correctly suggested “BB knowledge certified”. And that would bring this debate to an end, at least for some time in future.
    Take steps in this direction rather than proving your point time and again to those who will not exactly agree.
    Best Wishes,
    comoss

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    #95689

    Anilkumar.s
    Participant

    Dear MBB,I would like to offer my views on ASQ certification exam. I have taken ASQ ,BB exam and passed after completing Six Sigma projects and having both theoretical and practical knowledge on six sigma. I would rate the ASQ,BOK of Six sigma as highly relevent and useful. Without the thourough understanding you can not pass the exam. While books provide limited help, it is better to undergo some focussed training programme too. I have been immensely benefitted by ASQ’s Six sigma Black belt and CQM exams.I think your comments had been too generic and does not reflect the true condition of the usefulness of ASQ Certification exam.Anilkumar.s
    India

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    #95706

    keyes
    Participant

    Comoss,
    I am happy to drop it but I still don’t understand the point of all of this.  Rather than invent silly new certification titles (which then lead to more silly titles) just redefine the requirements for a CSSBB.  Second, create a single certifying body (be it ASQ or any other organization) so that the exam and professional requirements carry weight. 
    ASQ can’t raise the bar too high because of the competition (who will hand out certifications like candy).  The only way to stop this is unify the Six Sigma community and create a standards organization.
    The point of my posts was to challenge someone to answer the basic question of what truly makes a CSSBB.  As I have read the posts, there really isn’t a clear, unified answer.
    Perhaps somebody on this board ( who is considered part of the mystical six sigma community) can lead this process.  Just understand that it will take a lot of effort to bring about any single standard because alot of people stand to lose out and they won’t be happy.
    The only thing I’m sure of is that silly new designations won’t help.
    Greg

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    #95736

    Jim Braun
    Participant

    Original MBB,
    Six Sigma concepts are not new, though there have been some reorganizing of long-proven and improved quality theories/concepts.  ASQ has been a body of professionals (like many of us responding to your posting) attempting to promote old and new quality concepts for decades.  ASQ has also been recognized as the university accreditation body for subjects in quality (I believe through the PhD level). 
    In my opinion, certification is necessary.  It rewards us for achieving a level of knowledge and success, defined by the criteria to become certified.  It’s a starting point.  Just like a school diploma.  I hope you give some of these certified individuals an opportunity to further develop under your tutelage.  You sound very confident in your knowledge, skills and past successes.  However, there have been many before you practicing in the quality profession; many have done better than you, many probably worse. 
    As an MBB, I’m surprised you only critized the cert process but did not provide the appropriate people your recommendations for improvement (sorry, my quality 101 is coming out). 
    Do you have specific recommendations, or ….?
     

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    #95743

    Original MBB
    Participant

    Jim Braun,Touche, but here it comes back at you again :)…When I went through Black Belt training, we learned and practiced that it was appropriate to define a problem before one moves on to measure, analyze, improve and control. You and others are clearly suggesting that we jump to improve without understanding what the issue is. I would like to make it known that I do not know what the problem is yet, and I’m very interested in hearing both pro and con arguments on this topic.I do appreciate your thoughts, and thanks for the compliments. I know there are many more qualified than I, but I also know that the marketplace bar is pretty low and needs to be raised.I’m still following this thread and the other entitled “Will unqualified BBs devaluate Six Sigma?” (https://www.isixsigma.com/forum/showmessage.asp?messageID=40486). DaveG has offered to lead (essentially a project) some sort of improvement process/team. I commend him for that and would like to be a part of it. That is a sign of true leadership.Original MBB

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    #95751

    Statman
    Member

    You have done successful Six Sigma Projects both at Stategic and Operations level and 36 years of business and academic experience plus a phd and yet you were still compelled to take this exam.
    Why?  Do you have some sort of neurotic need for approval?
    What if you would have failed?  Would you have considered your whole life to be a lie?
    Maybe you just like to have a lot of letters after your name.
    Statman

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    #95752

    comoss
    Participant

    Greg,
    I agree. And as you said the biggest challenge would be creation of single certifying body. But buddy, it is impossible to create one.
    My intention was not to pin point ASQ in particular. Like any other business entity, ASQ has to survive the competition. Unifying Six Sigma community is like making bricks without a straw. It will not happen looking at the current situation.
    But don’t you think somewhere that the race of certifying people and creating roadblocks to those really deserve should end? I have seen people sailing under false colors or showing themselves as certified BBs and getting into the jobs.
    Believe me or not, after 10-15 years maximum you would feel the impact of pumping GBs and BBs by such institutions in the market. I know it can surely have both postives and negatives. Whether they will balance out or not remains to be found.
    I think there is no point in continuing discussion at least from my side.

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    #95767

    Blake Cutcliffe
    Participant

    OK Sam Spade.  I’ve interviewed and worked with BB’s from very  illustrious BB mills (the ones you see advertised in Quality Progress and Quality Digest as well as some well known companies) and most of them don’t have a clue either.  I agree that you can study a few books and pass the ASQ exam following the questionable affadavit process but what really happens at most companies to be bestowed the black belt honor?   I guess the bottom line is that you have to do your due diligence regardless of the titles after the name.  
    PS I’d be interested in knowing whether you passed your ASQ BB exam cause I detect some sour grapes. 
     
     

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    #95784

    Michael Bell
    Participant

    As a former network engineer, I have always been suspicious of certifications.  The IS job market has been flooded with CNA, CNE and MCSE plus others.  I have been in IS for twenty years and never sought a certification because either you can walk into a system problem and have the background and experience to resolve it quickly or your don’t.
    I am approaching Six Sigma and Lean the same way.  Either you have the background and experience to understand process or not.  So, I am trying to put in at least four different projects before I am comfortable even seeking any certification if at all.  What will distinguish me from those with a certification?  Value added project success with breakthrough quality.
    Michael

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    #95880

    Sharif
    Member

    ASQ’s BB should just add what’s missing…as simple as that!

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    #95919

    Prof.Vedu Mitter
    Participant

    Dear Statman,
    Lisa’s response, I feel, puts the issue in correct perspective without any prejudice.
    Your outburst anyway requires a response.
    I had no compulsion to take the exam. A mountaineer does not have to be compelled to scale a mountain.
    I appeared for the exam to know if I could get through. It wasn’t easy.
    I needed no approval nor lot of letters after my name which I already have.
    If I had failed it would have only meant that I did not prepare well then
    and would not belie my past.
    Even an expert prepares before giving a lecture to an august and knowledgeable audience.
    No body knows all perspectives of an elephant by being blind.
    Thanks for the pungent words to make me learn even at the age of Sixty-Two!!!
    Best regards
    Prof.Vedu Mitter

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    #95920

    Prof.Vedu Mitter
    Participant

    Dear Aspirant,
    Steve Covey’s “Seven Habits of Highly Effective people ” states the first habit as “Begin with the End In Mind”. Do so and prepare well using all sources of information after having done genuinely some projects. Mock exams could help in getting the speed to answer.
    Best wishes
    Prof.Vedu Mitter

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    #95922

    mman
    Participant

    I really appreciate your point of view.You are hitting the bottom line through this explaining.Going straightforward to the fact without trying  to hide and manipulate as many do.I admire this kind of “spirit”,hope to read your future input,kind regards.    MMAN

    0
    #95923

    Prof.Vedu Mitter
    Participant

    Thanks for your compliments, mman.
    Regards
    Prof.Vedu Mitter

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    #96179

    Leon
    Participant

    MBB
    Questions for you, please think it over before answer.
    Does any cerficate guarantee a candidate can success in his career ?
    and Do any institute can offer any certificate can guarantee my success £¨I would like to accquire one no matter how expensive it is )
    Leon
    A uncertified Yellow/Green Belt

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    #96181

    melvin
    Participant

    Leon,
    If I understand you question correctly and you are being honest in your inquiries, the Six Sigma methodology will not last much longer with supporters like you. Please take offense and leave Six Sigma alone. Here is why:
    * If you think any certificate can guarantee success, then you are either very naive or very ignorant.
    * If you want to acquire a certificant at any cost to guarantee your success, I would want to be as far as possible from that certificate program because it is soon to perish.
    Bob

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    #96187

    Leon
    Participant

    Dear Bob
    Absolutely agree with what you posted.  Since NO certificate can gurantee sucesss in real world , even a Ph .D.  so what are talking about in this thread?
    and another question is where do those so many MBB or BB come from? who certify them? ARE  all of  them good enough to say “I am a BB or MBB”, I dont think so there is no defect among these people. if there is really no defect, so please list out how to achive .then we can set up a orginization to quality our “Real qualified BB/MBB”.
    BTW, SS is  more like philisoph, but not everyone is interested in this. so not all BB/MBB will sucess when the world  around of them is too much different from the world they get used to. maybe we can call “company culture”
    Leon
    Am I right?
     

    0
    #96193

    mman
    Participant

    Yes I believe you are ‘right”.Having a certificate is one story and being a real expert is another story,kind regards,

    0
    #106918

    Kushal
    Participant

    Hello,
    I am a practising Black belt, already certified by the organization. I am planning to write ASQ exam on Oct16,04.
    I have gone through the premier ( published by QCI) in detail and have solved all the 400 problems given in the premier.
    Is there anybody there who could give me some mpre tips on how th prepare for the exam .
    Many thanks.
     
     
     

    0
    #106919

    BB BPO
    Participant

    Hi,
    I am planning to take a leaN CETRIFICANTION EXAM AND TRAINING from http://www.leanadvisors.com/ please suggest me the crediblity of the organisation…and how useful is LEAN in ser ice industry especially BPO.
    Thanks in advance
    BB-BPO

    0
    #106927

    Bob J
    Participant

    Kushal,
    When I took the exam I used the QCI material and found it very representative of the exam questions…  If you have no problem answering the primer questions or the exam disk questions you should do fine…
    The only thing I can offer is to prep your materials for the exam.  It will be open book (questions removed) and timed so the quicker you can get to the reference for those questions that you don’t immediately know the answer to the better off you will be…  I’ve found that it helps to:

    Remove any unnecessary material from the QCI binder and move the index to the front (quicker to access0
    Have key reference formulas and concepts highlighted on each page
    Tab key pages
    Hope this helps…
    Best Regards,
    Bob J

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    #107449

    Kushal
    Participant

    Dear Bob,
    Thanks for the candid feedback . I am sure this will be quite helpful.
    Since you have already taken the exam , may I ask you two more questions :
    1. Is the exam taken on-line i.e is it to be taken thru logging on to a computer or is it traditional paper answerscript ?  ( Pl note I will be taking the exam in India)
    2. There are number of books ASQ recommend on Six Sigma apart fro QCI premier ? Is it necessaery to go through all of them or is the QCI premier is sufficient ?
    Thanks a lot
    Kushal
     
     

    0
    #107453

    Bob J
    Participant

    Dear Kushal,
    I can’t speak for India but the exam I took in Boston was a multiple choice test where you fill in the answer by coloring a circle on a paper answer key with a number 2 pencil.  No computers or programmable calculators were allowed…
    I took in the QCI primer, the Black Belt Memory Jogger and Juran’s Quality Control Handbook.  I referenced the QCI primer and the Memory Jogger frequently and only used the Quality Control Handbook to help me remember how to do a linear regression by hand.
    Hope this helps and good luck on the exam!
    Best Regards,
    Bob J

    0
    #107508

    Learn
    Participant

    Kushal,I am also aspiring for ASQ CERT from India.Can I get your email Id.Propably, we can share few things.Regards.

    0
    #107510

    Kushal
    Participant

    Learn,
    I ‘ll appear at Mumbai.
    If you are from Mumbai , please let me know your phone number. Else, you may like to e-mail at [email protected]
    Thanks.

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    #156009

    bijan
    Participant

    I agree with you 1000 percent. 

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    #156010

    Craig
    Participant

    Michael,
    I agree with your philosophy. There are many certified black belts who have only completed one project, and based on some of the ones I have seen, they couldn’t “six sigma” themselves out of a wet paper bag. I wouldn’t only wait for 4 project opportunities. Seek ways to master some of the skills by doing various tasks. Everything in six sigma doesn’t have to be part of a large project.
    HACL

    0
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