# Attribute sample size

Six Sigma – iSixSigma Forums Old Forums General Attribute sample size

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• #51130

Gabriella
Participant

I need to figure out what sample size to use to proove that a change to the process will reduce the failures that we have with out current process. My questons are:
1.) How do I determine the sample size?
2.) How do I justify the confidence level selected to calculate the sample size?
3.) How do I determine what range is acceptable?
4.) How do I determine what acceptance criteria to use? I know that the current process fails with a certain percentage, would this be what I would use?
5.) How do I determine if the parameter that I choose is the best one to use? I found a parameter that seemed good by trial and error, but at this time I don’t know if this value is what I should be testing the sample size with or if I should keep on trying to find a better one.
Thanks,
Gabriella

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#176766

Ken Feldman
Participant

1. Sample size is a function of the alpha risk you are willing to take, the beta risk you wish to take, an estimate of the population variation and the amount of precision you wish to have. You decide on all but the estimate of the variation.
2. Confidence level, which is 1 – alpha, is usually around 95% but can be whatever you wish. You decide on alpha and then that gives you confidence level. You also need to consider Power which is 1 – beta risk. Power is the probability that you will see the desired precision if it is there. You decide on beta.
3. There is no simple answer to choosing the correct parameter. You either understand your process or you don’t. An anonymous post on a public forum is not the way to select parameters of importance. Use your subject matter experts and some statistical analysis to determine the key process variables.If you didn’t understand a word I said, then you need to do some individual studying to learn more about the components of sample size. If you have access to Minitab, then this is real easy from a calculation standpoint.

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#176768

Mikel
Member

I understand a word you said, in fact I understood 10 or 12 of them.Does that mean I don’t have to do some individual studying?BTW, I am interested in how to calculate sample size when I am
interested in the standard deviation, not the mean. Someone told me
Six Sigma is about variation reduction, but all of the materials deal
with sample size with relation to the mean. Our friend, Robert S’s
OSSS fountain of knowledge says sample size for variance is found by
using sample size for ANOVA – is that right?

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#176769

Ken Feldman
Participant

Stanley,
Not this conversation again!!! I have told you how to do it numerous times but apparently you keep forgetting. I will no longer spoon feed you. Tell me how you think it should be done and we will let the Forum decide if it is correct or not. Given your unqualified support of OSSSSSS materials, I would assume that you agree with the recommendation that they use the calculations for ANOVA.Pretty good, eh??? :-)

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#176785

Mikel
Member

Pretty good.What do you think about Sarah?

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#176795

Ken Feldman
Participant

Wish Sarah was your sister in law so I could get a little on the side. Would likely have gone McCain if not for her. She was chosen to attract a specific constituency that I don’t identify with. Just wish there was a valid third choice. May end up moving to Panama and not worrying about the whole thing. Have gone heavily to cash and holding on. Almost feels like the bull ride at the Roundup Bar.

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#176797

Mikel
Member

I am glad she is not my sister in law. Would not want to go to the
family gatherings.Did you see John on Dave last night?

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#176798

Ken Feldman
Participant

Nope, was sleeping by 9p. Tough getting old. Will be in Switzerland the day of the election and maybe depending on results, I’ll stay there and learn yodeling for a living.

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#176799

Mikel
Member

You can catch it on Letterman’s web site – it’s worth a watch.

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#176802

BC
Participant

No need to worry, Dr Darth.  ACORN has registered you to vote 37 times, in four different states.  I’m sure they’ll be glad to vote for you, too.

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#176805

Mikel
Member

That should aid the Palin crowd

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#176808

BC
Participant

So to find Dr Darth, I simply go to S. Fla and look for the “Coldest State, Hottest Governor” bumper sticker?  Or should I look for an inflatable Sarah doll in the front seat?

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#176811

Ken Feldman
Participant

Not to sound negative but if the House and Senate are controlled by the Dems….as it appears it will…then we will be in for another 4 years of stalemate and inaction and none of McCain’s or Sarah’s plans will be implemented anyway. So whether we like Obama’s ideas or not, at least something different will likely be tried for better or worse. You won’t find the bumper sticker or doll but look for the sign that says, “I don’t give a sxxt who wins, just do something for a change.”

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#176819

Pol
Participant

Do you really think Obama is equipped to deal with the issues in the next few years relative to China, Korea, Russia, Iran, Venezuela et al? They would know a sweet-talking, puXXy was in the office & we could face stuff far worse than the economic challenges of today. Forget the economy, we face far greater challenges if the US shows weakness on the world front.

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#176823

Ken Feldman
Participant

Although not a Bush fan myself, all his toughness and cojones hasn’t really tamed the countries you mention.  All of them are now using economic leverage to influence others.  Military might is not adequate today and the dollar seems to be more powerful than the sword.  China, Russia, Iran and Venezuela are giving away tons of money to win friends and influence people.  I certainly don’t think Sarah will take them down with her “You betcha” approach and threatening to bomb all of them.  McCain has gotten a bit strident and scary as of late.  Again, with Congress being controlled by the Dems and the mess in Iraq and Afganistan, it is unlikely that the Reps will do anything dramatic.  It will be a challenge no matter who wins.  I’m counting on Michelle to lead the way and maybe that Sista is tough enough to take them on.

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#176825

BC
Participant

Oh my gosh, you’re hot for Michelle O. too?  Not that she’s a bad looking lady…
What scares me is that the Dems are on their way to a filibuster-proof supermajority, and the next Prez will likely nominate two Supremes.
God help us if this “change” proves to be for the worse.
(If we survive the next four years, Sarah will run for Prez in 2012 and probably nominate Ted Nugent as Secretary of State.  I can’t wait.  That’ll kick ass.)

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#176830

Mikel
Member

We’ve shown tremendous weakness for the last 7 3/4 years. What is
weaker than a puppet president? Bin Laden has gotten exactly what he
wanted.

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#176831

Pol
Participant

We were not talking about Bush. We were talking about McCain vs Obama. You think McCain would be a puppet?

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#176832

Mikel
Member

I think he has sold his soul to the devil. Look at the platform of the RNC compared to McCain’s stated positions. That tells it all.

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#176833

Mikel
Member

Couple of thoughts -Pailin / Nugent ticket? No, Ted is way to articulate to be on the
undercard with a hick.New Supreme Court – thank god it wouldn’t be McCain / Palin – all
we need is to continue to stick our heads in the sand about the
realities of humanity. Roe v Wade overturned = more backstreet
procedures and unwanted children. God help us if this change could be any worse. How can it be?

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#176836

Stevo
Member

Stan, didn’t you see the 2nd debate.  McCain has a plan to get Bin Laden.  I think it involves a moose call.
Stevo

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#176837

Ken Feldman
Participant

He explicitly stated that he knew how to get him.  Ya woulda figured he might have said something to somebody the past few years or at least sent somebody an email….oh wait, he doesn’t know how to email.  Both candidates are lying and making promises to get elected.  Only difference is that if the Dems control both houses of Congress then at least their promises might have a chance of being tried…good or bad, at least some movement and change.

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#176838

Pol
Participant

Agreed. McCain is no grand solution. However, we have only two people from which to select.
McCain, for all his faults, is a doer.
Obama, is absolutley nothing but a runner. Hasn’t accomplished a single thing in his life other than running for office. And has some highly questionable connections..black supermisist ministers and terrorist buddies.

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#176843

None American
Participant

From someone outside of America and looking on with interest as who you choose has a large effect on the rest of us. But you can ignore as you want.
The general feeling from the people I talk to and the newspapers is that McCain makes very bad choices without looking at them in depth examples being Palin and Jo the Plummer. Is this what you want from someone who runs your country lots of knee jerk reactions. Also the thought that Palin would be so close to the chair is frieghtening to most of us, esp as McCain is getting on a bit and has already had Skin Cancer I believe.

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#176844

Stevo
Member

If the plan does include a moose call, then the Palin decision doesn’t look to bad.
Stevo
Ps.  Do you think “Joe Six Pack” and Joe the Plumber” are related to “Joe BB” or as Stan likes to call him “Joe, honey”?

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#176845

Pol
Participant

Many of you are knocking McCain. Your comments have merit. However, I’ll say again – we have only two choices. McCain cannot be assessed in a vacuum; he has to be compared to Obama. We have to choose one or the other; unfortunately we are not allowed to reject both.

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#176846

Mikel
Member

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#176847

Ken Feldman
Participant

Stevo, you might have hit on something with the Joe connection.
Although this is not a political forum I would be interested in reactions from our many non-US posters as to which of the two candidates for President do you feel will be best for the international community and why.  Apparently Bush has stirred up some international furor over his past 8 years.

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#176849

Mikel
Member

No – Bush/Cheney has done nothing but bring respect and admiration to the US.

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#176853

None American
Participant

Isn’t that just a vote for McCain?
I’m not knocking only McCain but it’s some of the people who vote for him that scrare me, the ones who think he’s an Arab, Muslim and shout terrorist and Kill him. Also I may be wrong but he hasn’t really put them down other than a few platitudes.

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#176854

Pol
Participant

Respect, who cares? Did the world love the Roman Empire when they ruled the world? Did the world love Great Britian when they ruled the world? Who cares? We’re the boss. We should be planting our flag and taking the spoils just like every other ruling country the world has known. Enough of this mamby-pamby, touchy feely crap. We’ll touchy, feely our way into having to learn Chinese.

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#176855

Clive
Participant

My view from the UK and we can’t say much because we choose Blair and Thatcher so we’ve also a lot to be fogiven for :(
I would go for Obama but that’s may be a mark against him as I’m fairly socialist and when that’s used as an insult I quite like him. On McCain, Palin scares me as a possible president, and I couldn’t vote for someone who sang Bomb Bomb Iran.
I don’t think the rest of the world got Bush. Just a very dangerous person who doesn’t seem to learn or understand history. Education isn’t a bad thing which is I suppose why Palin scares me.

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#176856

Non American
Participant

How cute you still think you rule the world.

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#176858

Ken Feldman
Participant

I sense someone is pulling our leg. While the US certainly doesn’t rule the world nor seems to be having much influence in political affairs lately, what happens here sure impacts the world, especially financially. I’m just concerned a turn towards socialism will stifle what made the US great. Obama can’t print enough money to carry out all his promises. Chavez, Putin, the scary Iranians and the guys in China are all wielding increasing influence by spreading the bucks around. We need to get back on track economically so we can regain some of the ground that has been lost. Wars can be great for economic growth but the last two have been financial losers and political losers. Part of me says, “fxxk’em” let the other countries fend for themselves without our help. Unfortunately, nationalism doesn’t seem a great solution either. Glad I’m just a lowly Jedi Knight/MBB and don’t have to worry about all these things.

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#176860

Just me
Participant

Let’s look at Obama’s accomplioshments:
Ran basically unopposed for the Senate. Never heard of the guy prior to the 2004 but 4 years later he’s a rock star. After 140 days in the Senate he says “Hey..I got this nailed…it’s time for me to be the Prez”.
No record of cutting taxes, creating jobs, running a business, advancing a bi-partisan agenda. Just living on canned speeches and sound bites. No accomplishments to use as a serious predictor of success in this critical role at this critical time.

Alliances with ACORN, Bill Ayers, Jeremiah Wright, Tony Rezko… any one of which should give people serious doubts. In my life, none of the thousands of people I have met are as anti-American as these people he consorts with. It’s not Republican smears…these are hard facts.
Years ago when Republicans tried to warn that Clinton had serious character flaws, nobody listened. It was proven true. When Bush ran for President, the Dems critiqued his cowboy go-it-alone style and limited intelligence. Nobody on the Republican side listened but hardly anyone would dispute his weaknesses today.  So now we have to choose between a guy who is old & experienced, maybe a bit cranky, but whom we know loves this country , and a guy who seems slicker than slick Willie and hangs out with some totally reprehensible characters.
Mark my words…if Obama is elected his arrogance, superficiality and devious agenda will be exactly as the Republicans warn. Joe Biden will be a greater embarrasment to him than Dan Quayle was for Bush I.
If McCain is elected he will be an old fart, act in the country’s best interest and irritate Republicans on a lot of issues, but never cause harm or surround himself with Bush types. The man has character….heroism… and the burden of some dumb ideas, but I’ll take the risk of the latter.

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#176861

Another non American
Participant

The American fuss about ‘anti-American’ activities puzzles me – isnt the USA a strong enough culture or democracy to tolerate diverse opinions?  Otherwise patriotism becomes jingoism.
The USA’s presidential system seems to be offering a choice a 2 candidates none of you like – how would you apply Six Sigma to the process to turn up better candidates in future?

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#176863

Pol
Participant

Exactly what I was attempting to say Just Me; however done far more eloquently.

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#176867

Mikel
Member

What BS

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#176868

Severino
Participant

Just Me –
You’re right, it makes far more sense to vote for a corpse whose been kicked off the Republic ticket more times than a Baldwin has fallen off the wagon.  By your own logic, Abraham Lincoln should’ve never been president either due to his inexperience.
Secondly, having “associated with” and having “hung out with” are two enormously different levels of social interaction.  I once shook hands with Bill Clinton, does that mean I got oral from Monica Lewinsky?
Finally, if you want to look for the rule book on having a “devious agenda” you can rest assured that it was written by the Republican party. The facts are that in the last 20 years every time we put a Republican in office our economy took a nosedive and we ended up at war.  Even now on this very forum, pundits from the party that believes if you aren’t a white christian you should be wormfood are suggesting we go to war with China.
I very much doubt the ability of John McCain to “act in the country’s best interest” since he can’t identify with 70% of it.  I find it laughable that you would bring up a lack of experience when Sarah Palin’s on the ticket and in case you didn’t notice, he’s already surrounded by “Bush types.”
See you at the polls.

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#176872

Mikel
Member

Well said. McCain is 4 or more years of the same – rich getting
richer, everyone else is fxxxed. And god forbid he should die.The war is obscene, our economic policy is obscene, pretending
that the war and the feds budget are separate issues is obscene.
We are in a hole and we can’t let dolts be responsible for getting us
out.McCain was a poor student whose daddy got him into Annapolis.
He got shot down multiple times (poor pilot) and did what was
expected as a POW (no small chore – the boy rose to the occasion).
He has disagreed with Bush on only the most egregious of issues
such as torture. We’ll be in a war in Iran if this fool is let in.Obama was the top of his class a Harvard Law – want to criticize
that?

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#176873

thilo
Member

Can anybody let me know how to incorporate oppotunities for defect with lean sigma dash board. Anybody of you can display an exapmle for this.

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#176875

e
Participant

I am not convinced McCain is all about the country first….
1.  McCain abandons his disabled wife to marry a rich sweetheart in Cindy after he returns from the war….was it really only 6 months after his divorce he then married Cindy?
2.  McCain was associated with improper actions and sanctioned by the US Senate on his association with Keating and the S&L fiasco
3.  McCain associated with himself, even this year, with a radical like G. Gordon Liddy who reportedly advocates shooting of federal law enforcement and liberal politicians?  Our federal law enforcement agencies should be supported….not vilified!
4.  McCain picks a VP candidate who was part of the political party in Alaska that advocated seceding from the US?  Never mind the VP candidate’s husband who was also part of that same party and is very active in his wife’s politics and business.
5.  McCain has close advisors who are ripping off the US taxpayer with contracts supplying US troops in Iraq.
6.  McCain and his wife reportedly get a cell phone tower installed on their land so they get better reception while McCain has a known conflict since he is on a committee that regulates the telecommunications industry.
I am not perfect but please let no one say McCain does not make choices that improve himself before others.
I trust Obama’s economic advisers and Powell much more than McCain’s.  Go Buffett even if it’s not Jimmy!

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#176876

Chris Seider
Participant

Opportunities are not the opportunity “to make a defect” but is the opportunity “to add value” and NOT associated with rework.
Use Z = normsinv(1-dpo) in your excel dashboard.  You should distinguish somewhere in your dashboard whether it is long term or short term data so others can relate.

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#176878

Taylor
Participant

Obama-voted 94 times in 140 days to raise taxes, but says if elected president he will only raise taxes on the wealthy. So lets take a look at his plan. He says he will only raise taxes on households with 250k+income per year, this tax is 40% of that income. If that is not Socialism I don’t know what is. Economic studies and history have proven that raising taxes on the wealthy will plummet the economy even deeper into recession than it already is. Obama has no plan that can be supported by the house and the senate. Its sad
So here is a little economic lesson for you guys today and given the forum nature of drinking, maybe you guys will understand it

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#176880

Mikel
Member

Cute story Chad, but explain how a trader on Wall Street can take
home \$13 billion by betting against the housing market last year
while millions were put out of their homes. Or how we cut taxes and
increased spending pretending that the money spent on wars did not
have anything to do with taxes or spending. Want to bet on whether Cheney has more than doubled his money
while it was in a “blind” trust while VP?It’s time for the chest beating selfish to leave office.

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#176881

Chris Seider
Participant

I hate to delve into politics on a professional stage here, but….
Chad, are you suggesting it’s OK for middle class entrepreneurs who are self employed to pay an effective 43+% marginal rate (28% + FICA of 15+%) but not the very wealthy to pay 40% marginal tax at some point?  Fairness ought to have some commonsense!
The Bush administration along with a compliant, weakly led Democrat/Republican congress allowed the perpetual overspending and so the long term goal of the Republicans to starve Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security will be attained in the future since not enough revenues will exist to pay out the “promises” of the entitlement programs.
Either cut spending (including entitlements) or raise marginal taxes…..only one of two possible choices or a combination.  It is too bad that all of the recent politicians have grossly indebted the future generations of America.
I truly believe the federal government will have to use a hatchet AND a scalpel in the next 8 years to get spending under control.
The government should look at the next 2 or 3 years to allow anyone who is paying home mortgage to deduct both principle and interest up to some maximum dollar value–this will improve the housing crisis because it will increase the benefit of home ownership.

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#176883

Mikel
Member

Try a search for Carol McCain (John’s first) or McCain Liddy (as in G.
Gordon who suggested shooting federal agents in the head) to get
some insight into who McCain might really be.

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#176885

Taylor
Participant

C Seider
I was speaking only of income tax. 40%+15% FICA=55%, so for the first time history americans earning more than 250K per household, will be sending more than half their check to the government……..
Agreed “Weakly Led” Congress and House but for the last 16 years they have been either under democratic leadership or voted democratic policies. So to blame all this on Bush is just ignorance.
If you look at the states that have high property tax and high income tax there is a direct correlation to foreclosures. Texas a state with no income tax has the lowest foreclosure rate in the country, yet California and Illinois which both have high income tax and high property tax lead the nation. It is simple, these states are spending beyond there means, and with Obama your going to get even more of it.
McCains plan is to cut spending, (Even Entitlements) and he may even give some tax cuts to big corporations, which Obama keeps pointing out big oil, but never says anything about GM or Ford, which are really struggling and will be benefiting from those tax cuts as well. How Many of you Six Sigma guys are associated with Auto Industry or know someone who is……..Wake up boys. Redistribution of wealth has start at the top, when the top spends money the lower group gets paid, when GM looses its tax incentives, plants close. When Big Oil looses tax incentives, Gas Goes Up.

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#176886

Chris Seider
Participant

FICA is not nor probably ever will be charged at those high income levels…presently it disappears near \$110k so the marginal rate would only be 40%–still less than middle class self employed folks.
Texas has had issues in the past….it is one of the reasons the banks still charge higher mortgage rates for Texas loans.
The Senate has only recently had a Democratic majority (last 2 years) and only because of Lieberman being the fence sitter and caucausing with the Democrats but voting as a moderate Republican.
It’s hard to not be disgusted with both parties…. like Lou Dobbs.  Bush has been the leader and should take the responsibility.  I was a huge fan of Bush post 9/11 because of his spearheading getting the country as one force but lately ….

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#176887

Mikel
Member

When big oil dictates economic policy, we send billions to the
mideast. Do you remember Cheney’s secret meetings. Do you
remember Bush unilaterally rejecting Kyoto? Do you remember the
lies that got us to Iraq? All in the interest of big oil and the military
industrial complex.Entitlements are dumb, but only

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#176888

All American
Participant

Hey I have a question for you Mr. JSEV. How much experience does your Mr. Nobama have? She actually has more executive experience than all of them combined. Now lets face the facts… not mumbo jumbo. What about the facts of being a Muslim? Ever think about that? In Muslim law one cannot name their child Hussain without having them be a Muslim? Know why Nobama draws such large crowds and McCain does not? Because McCain supporters are at work… not looking for handouts from the government.. I can go on and on but it is useless, besides stupidity irritates me.

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#176890

Pol
Participant

Stan, tell me 2 things: 1) What does the President have to do with what people on Wall Street make? 2) We are getting rid of Bush/Cheney – question is “Who do we replace them with?”

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#176892

Pol
Participant

C, reasonable statements however our governance structure will NEVER be solved until we limit terms for Congress. They do not manage the country in the best interest of the country – they manage it to get reelected. PERIOD!

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#176894

Non American and happy for it
Participant

In a country with so many Muslims as yours has you seem to think that him being a musliam is a problem. Do you know that Muslims in your country will be the largest minority, passing the jewish comunnity, in the next few years. Are you rasist or just stupid.
I’m guessing stupid as you seem to preptuate the myth of Omaba being a Muslim.

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#176895

Mikel
Member

1) Ever heard of deregulation?2) Not more of the same – have you read the platform of the RNC? I
have.

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#176896

Mikel
Member

You must irritate yourself.That is about as stupid as I have seen posted on here about any topic
and that is a pretty low bar.

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#176897

Mikel
Member

Agreed

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#176898

Not a racist
Participant

No I’m not a racist. Nor am I saying that Muslims are a bad thing. Just the radical ones. Which by estimates and in the neighborhood of 2.5 million world wide. But keep this in mind… Why would one say Iran is ok, we just need to sit down and talk to them.. they’ll be some good’ol boys if we treat them good… Yeah right… give them a weapon and see what happens to the world.

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#176899

Mikel
Member

What about the radical Christians? Eric Robert Rudolph, Theodore Kaczynski, and Timothy McVeigh come
to mind. These guys scare me too and they live among us.The world is a crazy place, but most people regardless of ethnicity or
religion are good and reasonable. People fear the unknown. Education
and communication are the answers, not a re-escalation of cold war

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#176901

Ken Feldman
Participant

I know all this political discussion is off topic but Mike C gotta be loving the traffic it is generating.  The great part is that as Americans, we can actually disagree without some government group swooping in and arresting us.  Would still love to hear from all our posters in India, China and Middle East as to their take on things and what would a President have to do get things back on track.
While things are pretty scary in the US now, it is still the first choice for so many others seeking to escape the political and economic turmoil of their own countries.

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#176902

stupid is as stupid does
Member

Stan, are you really serious? I used to have much more respect for you….. I emphasize USED TO. When Obama gets elected and you are standing in line to get your monthly welfare check because all the companies that used to hire you are now closed because of HIS policies I bid you good luck, hope you didn’t have too much tied up in the great stock market that the democrats finally screwed up and caused this whole mess to begin with… WOW

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#176903

cheezer
Participant

The government should look at the next 2 or 3 years to allow anyone who is paying home mortgage to deduct both principle and interest up to some maximum dollar value–this will improve the housing crisis because it will increase the benefit of home ownership.
More importantly, this would loosen the credit markets by increasing the bank’s capitalization because more folks would pay off their mortgages early. This idea has been pushed by both Wall Street and many economists. However, it’s DOA politically, as it would mostly benefit those who aren’t in mortgage trouble (at least directly).

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#176905

Chris Seider
Participant

I would advocate that the homeowners who didn’t take the “risk” of interest only loans (although I almost did recently) or ARM’s should get some benefit from being as financially responsible as possible.  Combine this proposal with my newest one….Let the government buy any primary mortgages from banks at 80% of the value on condition that a mutual agreement exists between the primary mortgage owner and the borrower to set the mortgage at 7%.  Why 7%, it’s a penalty to present rates but some pain should be borne by all.  Yes, someone will say the banks don’t own the original loan but SOMEONE does!
Now for the second or piggy back loans….the government should do nothing because of a lack of money–they are already subsidizing those who did not take the piggy back loans by allowing PMI to be deducted.

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#176906

BC
Participant

AnA,
I don’t know if Six Sigma can help in the selection of better candidates.  The process is one that rewards party loyalty and a willingness to subject one’s past, one’s family and friends, and one’s patience to a relentless attack by the media and the “other side”.  How many good, capable people want to put with that?  OTOH, maybe those are exactly some of the attributes that make a good leader…
Regards, BC

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#176908

Non American and happy for it
Participant

Can I ask how the democrats screwed up the stock market? I must have missed something there I thought that was down to de-regulation of the banks and all that very stupid credit being given out to people who couldn’t afford it.
As far as I can see it was the greedy or the stupid who did this along with a goverment who didn’t stop them. Those that took out these loans with no way of to pay them and those who lent them out for a quick buck.

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#176911

cheezer
Participant

Hard to believe someone calling others “stupid” would post this comment, which is factually incorrect. The largest minority today in the US is Hispanics, with 37 million (They surpassed blacks as the largest minority in 2003). I doubt many of them are Muslim The next largest is African Americans with 36 million, of which a few are muslim, not certainly not the majority.
Think before you comment and call someone “stupid.”

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#176913

Mikel
Member

you think it could get worse. I have invested boringly over the past decade so no big deal – but I
am one of the lucky ones.

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#176915

Pol
Participant

This has been a very interesting group of discussions.
My opinion, bottom line, is that government cannot fix anything. Therefore, the less their involvement in anything, the better. The less their involvement, the less they spend. The less they spend the sooner we balance a budget.
So, whoever wins: Create less governement – get outta stuff!

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#176918

GB
Participant

AMEN.

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#176935

Severino
Participant

Hey I have a question for you Mr. ALL AMERICAN. Let’s face a true set of facts.  The country we live in has a clear distinction between church and state. Religous freedom is one of the fundamental principles upon which this country was founded.  It should not matter whether he is muslim, catholic, jewish, or even an atheist.  He is running for President, not Pope.  Your fear that he is going to go talk “muslim to muslim” with Iranian leaders shows just what a small minded, ethnocentric viewpoint you have of the world and is exactly why other civilized nations see us as warmongering bigots.  Grow up.  It’s true, the Middle East is an area of much turmoil and needs to be handled with great care.  There is no denying that there is a huge amount of anti-American sentiment.  What most people fail to realize is that the distaste is not born of nothing, but rather on foreign policies which have only supported the civil unrest in the region.  We militarize certain groups to protect our interests and then we turn our backs on them when they’ve lost their usefulness. We help cram Israel into their mouths until they choke on it.  We carve out military bases and invade whole countries and then we are indignant when someone takes action against us.  We start spouting phrases like “nuke ’em all, as if that is some sort of solution.That is what was meant when the phrase “Americas chickens have come home to roost.”  It’s not anti-American, its a criticism of our foreign policy.  The soil that surrounds the seed of hatred is ingorance.  That ignorance is not only contained within the muslim, islamic, or arabic populations as your post so eloquently shows.  The cure for ignorance is not war, but education and a willingness to understand each others cultures and promote the growth of your fellow man.  Wake up.One of the beauties of the human condition is that we have the power to not just fight or flight, but also to negotiate, to talk, and to trade.  That is what Barack Obama means.  He’s not suggesting we lay down our weapons and take it in the shorts, but he understands that every time we wave our guns or our nukes we breed another 100 years of anti-American sentiment.

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#176936

Another happy non American
Participant

Hear! Hear!
Posts like this give me hope.  Well put.

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#176940

Severino
Participant

Too bad the forum mods removed my joke from the post.  Now the opening line doesn’t make sense.  Oh well.

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#176944

Ken Feldman
Participant

Jsev,
I agree with most of what you wrote except the “clear distinction between church and state.”  While on paper it is true, the reality is that the Evangalists and other religious right groups are having a large influence on the political landscape as politicians seek their vote.  Today we have a blurring of political agenda and religious agenda and we seem to lean over backwards to accomodate almost every group.  Roe v Wade is a prime example of the merging of politics and religion.  Not a real clear distinction here.

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#176946

Taylor
Participant

Jsev
I agree with most everything you say. However there is a quote from Senator Obama’s book The Audacity of Truth that is this “When push comes to shove I will side with Muslims”. Now I have read that chapter several times and I find it to only mean one thing.
I suggest you read it and make your own decision like I have……..

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#176947

Mikel
Member

Could you share the chapter and page? I read the book a while ago
and didn’t catch that – may be because I was reading it late at night –
it would not be the first time.Thanks

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#176948

Mikel
Member

I agree with the religious right statement, but don’t lose track of the
fact they are only the latest of special interests gaining power out of
proportion – The influence of the South Florida cubans is a great
example.

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#176949

All American
Participant

First I never said or made claims to any types of relgious group. Except that of the radicals of this world out to destroy the western ways of living. I do believe the American people do not want another 911. The radicals I speak of will stop at nothing to die for a cause they believe. They start teaching and preaching this to the children at a very early age which I think is a terrible thing. They can do whatever the hell they want to do in their country, but when their behaviors start to effect the people of America I get defensive. It wouldn’t matter what type of foreign policies we have they will and would continue to do these things to hurt American lives. Here is A speech I wish I could hear from the next President. WOULDN’T IT BE GREAT TO TURN ON THE TV AND HEAR ANY U.S. PRESIDENT, DEMOCRAT
OR REPUBLICAN GIVE THE FOLLOWING SPEECH?
“My Fellow Americans: As you all know, the defeat of the Iraq regime has
been completed. Since congress does not want to spend any more money on this war, our
mission in Iraq is complete. This morning I gave the order for a complete removal of all American forces
from Iraq This action will be complete within 30 days. It is now t ime to
begin the reckoning.
Before me, I have two lists. One list contains the names of countries which
have stood by our side during the Iraq conflict. This list is short . The
United Kingdom , Spain , Bulgaria , Australia , and Poland are some of the
countries listed there. The other list contains every one not on the first list. Most of the world’s
nations are on that list. My press secretary will be distributing copies of
both lists later this evening. Let me start by saying that effective immediately, foreign aid to those
nations on List 2 ceases immediately and indefinitely. The money saved
during the first year alone will pretty much pay for the costs of the Iraqi
w ar. THEN EVERY YEAR THERE AFTER IT’ll GO TO OUR SOCIAL SECURITY SYSTEM SO
IT WONT GO BRO KE IN 20 YEARS. The American people are no longer going to pour money into third world Hell
holes and watch those government leaders grow fat on corruption. Need help with a famine ? Wrestling with an epidemic? Call France . In the future, together with Congress, I will work to redirect this money
toward solving the vexing social problems we still have at home . On that
note, a word to terrorist organizations. Screw with us and we will hunt you
down and eliminate you and all your friends from the face of the earth.Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize? Try France or maybe China . I am ordering the immediate severing of diplomatic relations with France ,
Germany , and Russia . Thanks for all your help, comrades. We are retiring
from NATO as well. Bonne chance, mezamies. I have instructed the Mayor of New York City to begin towing the many UN
diplomatic vehicles located in Manhattan with mo re than two unpaid parking
tickets to sites where those vehicles will be stripped, shredded and
crushed. I don’t care about whatever treaty pertains to this. You creeps
have tens of thousands of unpaid tickets. Pay those tickets tomorrow or
watch your precious Benzes, Beamers and limos be turned over to some of the
finest chop shops in the world. I love New York A special note to our neighbors. Canada is on List 2. Since we are likely to
be seeing a lot more of each other, you folks might want to try not pissing
us off for a change. Mexico is also on List 2 its president and his entire corrupt government
really need an attitude adjustment. I will have a couple extra thousand
tanks and infantry divisions sitting around. Guess where I am going to
put ’em? Yep, border security. Oh, by the way, the United States is abrogating the NAFTA treaty – startin g
now. We are tired of the one-way highway. Immediately, we’ll be drilling for oil
in Alaska- which will take care of this country’s oil needs for decades to
come. If you’re an environmentalist who opposes this decision, I refer you
to List 2 ab ove: pick a country and move there. It is time for America to focus on its own welfare and its own citizens.
Some will accuse us of isolationism. I answer them by saying, ‘darn tootin.’ Nearly a century of trying to help folks live a decent life around the world
has only earned us the undying enmity of just about everyone on the planet.
It is time to eliminate hunger in America It is time to eliminate
homelessness in America . To the nations on List 1, a final thought. Thank
you guys. We owe you and we won’t forget. To the nations o n List 2, a final thought: You might want to learn to speak
Arabic. God bless America .. Thank you and good night.” If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English,
thank a soldier

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#176950

Ken Feldman
Participant

True about the Cubans but they were forwarding a political agenda and not a religious one. The original comment referred to the supposed separation of church and state. Jerry Falwell and Billy Graham were so involved in political affairs that it was difficult to distinguish between church and state. Even the Jews who are big on pushing agendas, keep them at a political level and not religious. They lobby to protect Israel and not to shut down businesses on Saturday to observe the Sabbath or seek to impose their religious holidays as if they were official political business.

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#176951

Ken Feldman
Participant

Very provocative All American. And very simplistic. We coddle despots in the ME so they don’t cut off our supply of oil. Until we have alternative sources, we kiss their axx. Our country’s productive capacity exceeds our own consumption so who are we going to export to in order to offset the money we spend on imports? To maintain our own standard of living we have shipped jobs overseas and rely on those third world countries for cheap labor. A policy of nationalism sounds good on paper but unfortunately we don’t live in the 1900’s anymore and have to accept the world is truly global. Democracy and economic prosperity solve a lot of problems. But, we can’t ram it down everyone’s throat as we have attempted to do. We need to role model and offer incentives to give it a try. Bush’s concepts of nation building have merit but it was all in the execution….which sucked.

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#176952

Dennis
Participant

Isn’t it amazing that we don’t have enough gasoline, fuel oil, etc., and the prices are going through the roof. Could this be a consequence of:
(1) prohibiting drilling where we know there is oil?
(2) regulating the construction of oil refineries to the point where none has been built in over 30 years?
(3) making it impossible to build nuclear power plants that have been proven safe in countries like France that generate over 80% of their electricity using nuclear?
(4) restricting the development of U.S. oil shale that contains more oil than the rest of the world combined?
All of these wonderfull things have been brought to you by liberals, greenies, hollywood, for what purpose? They say we need to convert to solar, biofuels, recycle, …? Look at the high energy consumption life style of the advocates of this plan, i.e., stars who live in mansions and over consume; private jet elites.
Where does it end? Perhaps political control of the U.S. economy? Economic Depression of the US economy? Marxism or socialism?

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#176953

Liberal Greenie
Participant

1) If we drilled everywhere we could, it would be less than 5% of
our needs.2) We have enough refineries, we only run out when there is a
hurricane and thats very temporary. Go study Lean.3) Nuclear plant = big terrorist target. No thank you. France is safe
because they are such weenies.4) The oil sands in Canada are flowing because of the high cost of
gas. The shale is not feasible until the cost of gas hits about where
it is now. To turn this on will take a decade or more. To create
sustainable energy will take about the same time. Tough choice.Name calling n=doesn’t solve a thing and is for simple minded
people. Listen to others and engage in a dialog. Thats what has
been missing in the US for the last few decades. We talk at each
other not to each other.

0
#176955

Clive
Participant

If your oil and petrol is still expensive then you need to look at your suppliers the cost of oil has dropped hugely in the last few weeks. In the UK prices are nearly back to what they were before it went sky high. One of the benefits of a world recession. and the prices went up becuase of demand and that demand was fueled by speculators not actually people wanting oil.
You need to watch the newspapers outside of america as well the French this tear have had lots of problems with their reactors e.g. leaks etc.

0
#176958

Anonymous
Participant

Liberal Greenie wrote, ” Listen to others and engage in a dialog. Thats what has been missing in the US for the last few decades. We talk at each other not to each other.”
Well LG, I agree with the sentiment but the correct place to post it would be on the Huffington Post, Moveon.org or the Daily Kos…  The venom that comes from the transnational citizens of the world who post on that site every day is far worse than almost anything you’d hear on the other side…

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#176959

Pol
Participant

“power out of proportion”? 50% of the US population is Christian and only 22% or so of the population votes. I would say Christians could easily comprise 100% of those voting. Therefore the government would be fully representitive of those who cast votes.

0
#176961

Mikel
Member

You think that all of those calling themselves Christians hold the view of the religious right?
Thank god they don’t.

0
#176962

Pol
Participant

Of course not. What in my posting led you to that conclusion. Or do you just like to make up conclusions for others so you can bash them?

0
#176963

Taylor
Participant

LG- Here is some engaging dialog for you
The US Nuclear Regulatory Commission sites 66 operating facilities within the United States, so I think we have the Terrorist issue covered.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/at_a_glance/reactors/nuke1.html
If we had enough refinery capacity then something like a hurricane would never disrupt gas prices. Currently Ethanol has exceeded the blending capacity of the refineries. To date Refineries in the us only have the ability to blind some 12 billion gallons (@ 10%). The Ethanol industry will surpass that number by end of October for the fiscal year, The company I work for has shut down 2 small facilities and currently has over 20 million gallons setting in storage waiting on market conditions and new Regulations which will allow a blend higher than 10%. The proposal is to go to 13-15%. This additional  ~3% will have a positive affect on the industry as a whole, however, today, Ethanol has grown all it can grow until additional demand for E85 grows.
1) If we drilled everywhere we could, it would be less than 5% of our needs
If we drilled everywhere we could, we could only process 5% of it because we dont have Refinery Capacity. ANWR alone has enough oil to reduce imports by 38%. But if you can’t process it, no need to drill it.
http://www.anwr.org/Background/How-much-oil-is-in-ANWR.php
I am amazed at the number people that claim to Know what ANWR drilling really means.
As for high oil prices, Speculation in the market has run rampant over the last couple decades with little to no regulation.
And I particularly like your last statement about “Name Calling”, right after you called France a bunch of “Weenies”. Just Typical of the Left side.

0
#176964

Pol
Participant

Good on ya Chad – call them to task – keep em straight!

0
#176966

Anonymous
Participant

I suspect that LG doesn’t want to drill in Anwar because he thinks it will result in the state of Florida being washed away in about 6 years or that it might also result in glaciers in Philadelphia.
This is consistent with the fact that people of LG’s ilk almost always seem to be the ones who don’t think that a plane hit the Pentagon on 9/11 or that WTC # 7 was detonated.

0
#176970

Liberal Greenie
Participant

WTC #7 was detonated? The lunatic fringe is alive and well.
http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

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#176973

Kluttz
Member

Radiation leaks?  Like the one in Three Mile Island, the worst commercial nuclear disaster in US history?  Do you happen to know how many people died from the radiation leaks from TMI?  Do you know how many got sick?  Google the answer then remind me what your point was.
Leaks from nuclear power plants results in a reduced life expectancy (RLE) of about 30 minutes.  Which means that if you were going to die at 72 years old, radiation would instead cause you to die at 71 years, 11 months, 29 days and 23.5 hours.  Compare that to an RLE of 6 hours from drinking coffee.  Maybe we should ban all the Starbucks.
You get more internal radiation from eating sunflower seeds than you would from a lifetime of living outside TMI.

0
#176975

Cernobal
Participant

Ever heard of Cernobal?

0
#176984

Ken Feldman
Participant

No, is it anywhere near Chernobyl?

0
#176986

BC
Participant

And those who would argue Chernobyl ought to read about what happened.  They were taking shortcuts and not following procedure.
(Of course if you read about it, you would know how to spell it, too.)

0
#177019

Kluttz
Member

Chernobyl?  Are you under the impression that all nuclear reactors are created equal?
Allow me to give you a quick physics lesson – Chernobyl (and many other Soviet-designed reactors) utilize graphite as a moderator (the material used to slow down neutrons to facilitate sustained reactivity).  That’s different from western reactors, which use water as a moderator.  This fundamental design difference affects metal-to-water ratio.  That, in turn, affects the reactor’s temperature coefficient of reactivity.  Chernobyl had a slightly positive temperature coefficient of reactivity which means that as core temperature increased, reactor power increased along with it.  This factor exacerbates any loss-of-coolant accident in that typ of reactor.
Western reactors have a NEGATIVE temperature coefficient of reactivity, which means that as the core heats up, reactor power goes down.  So if a US reactor had a loss-of-coolant accident, the reactor would inherently reduce activity, preventing the type of runaway meltdown that happened in the USSR.
That fundamental difference prohibits a Chernobyl-style meltdown from ever happening in a US reactor.  So it’s pretty amusing to me whenever some yahoo tries to cite Chernobyl as a means to temper US development of nuclear power.
If you want to get into the specifics of Three Mile Island or the terror threats faced by nuclear power plants, I’d be more than happy to have that discussion as well.

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#177022

Ken Feldman
Participant

Vinny, is that you, you olde rascal????

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