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Average Values in VSM?

Six Sigma – iSixSigma Forums General Forums Tools & Templates Average Values in VSM?

This topic contains 16 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  Mike Carnell 10 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #211423

    leanmx
    Participant

    Hello everybody, I´m new to this forum, and thought I may receive some help.

    I´m also newbie in lean manufacturing, have received little training, anyway I try to do a simple analysis by using VSM.

    For example, I decided, to analyze 2 specific products: A and B

    This products are produced twice a month.

    I will try to capture data of the work orders belonging to A and B.

    I also will consider the amount of raw materials coming from supplier within the month.

    In order to do a good evaluation, should I have to run several analysis?

    I mean to try a least 4 or 10 work orders of each, in order to have more data to analyze? and at the end to have an average of all values
    of the total wok orders?

    Once I have the average values I may start to draw my initial VSM?

    In the average will be considered, cycle times, changover, # of workers, waiting times,etc.

    Please give some feedback.

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    #211433

    Robert Butler
    Participant

    Value Stream Mapping (VSM) is a way to track a process from beginning to end with an eye towards examining the system to look for places for improvement within the process. Your description of what you plan to do isn’t VSM. Indeed, based on your post I’m not sure what it is that you are trying to do.

    My understanding of your post is as follows:

    1. You have two products A and B.
    2. Each product is produced twice each month.
    3. You are proposing to gather work orders corresponding to each of the products.
    4. You are proposing to measure the “amount of raw material” coming from the supplier each month
    5. You are going to take some kind of data from each of the work orders and analyze the numbers in some fashion.
    6. You are planning to look at the averages of these numbers from the work orders and draw conclusions about something.

    As I said this isn’t VSM. I’m not trying to be mean spirited or snarky but if the above is a correct summary of what you are proposing to do I don’t see what you plan to gain from any of this.

    1. You want to measure amounts of raw material from suppliers but give no indication as to why you are doing this. In your description of proposed actions this measure does not seem to have any purpose.
    2. What is it about A and B you want to know?
    3. If we assume taking some averages of data from work orders is meaningful to some aspect of A and B then what are you going to do with these averages?
    a. Compare averages of various work order data from A against that of B?
    b. Is this a situation where data recorded in work orders is known to reflect actual process behavior?
    1. if it is, then how will this relate back to assessing A and B?
    c. As an aside, it should be noted that if you are planning on comparing averages for any aspect of your process you will have to employ statistical methods for means comparisons.

    If you could provide more detail concerning what it is that you are trying to do and address some of the questions I’ve asked then either I or some other poster may be able to offer suggestions.

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    #211434

    leanmx
    Participant

    Thanks for your response, I´ll try to explain it, I include my comments below of each point.
    According to what I know, ok what I plan to do is a VSA (visual stream analysis), once
    having all the information captured, I´ll be ready to draw VSM (visual stream maps) current and future situations.

    1. You want to measure amounts of raw material from suppliers but give no indication as to why you are doing this. In your description of proposed actions this measure does not seem to have any purpose.
    In order to know how the inventory is arriving to my business and trying to revise the amount
    comparing to the inventory
    2. What is it about A and B you want to know?
    A is one kind of product (Lot of rejects)
    B (Product passing throughout several process)
    both products are my main purpose to be analized
    3. If we assume taking some averages of data from work orders is meaningful to some aspect of A and B then what are you going to do with these averages?
    No, Is to have the average value of runs of just product A and apart take data of several runs of B, getting an average of B.

    I think that if I analyze just one run,I may have any data, but If I analyze several runs I may have more data to analyze and suppose is better to have an average value than just to have data of just one run, it may reflect a more real information of the processes.
    a. Compare averages of various work order data from A against that of B?
    dont want to compare anything , what I want is to get several values of runs of A and having the average of A., doing the same for product B.

    b. Is this a situation where data recorded in work orders is known to reflect actual process behavior?
    I plan to take as a reference the work orders of A and B, from work orders, I´ll pick up just data like type of product, delivery date, date when a work order was placed and so on. the real data I need will be gotten form the field (activities of operators, programmer, failure of machines,etc.)
    1. if it is, then how will this relate back to assessing A and B?

    No comments
    c. As an aside, it should be noted that if you are planning on comparing averages for any aspect of your process you will have to employ statistical methods for means comparisons.

    Well once I have enough data, I´ll consider statistic methods.

    I hope is explained clear enough
    thanks for your time

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    #211436

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    leanmx I almost never try to get into a situation where it looks like I am second guessing Robert. He is as good as you are going to get at analysis. Her is the part I don’t get. You have already decided you are going to do a Visual Stream Analysis (I will assume that is approximately the same thing as a Value Stream Analysis). Whether it is or not is irrelevant. When you start looking at how to analyze a problem it normally begins with 2 questions 1. What d I want to know 2. How do I want to see it. Then based on that you select a tool or methodology that will deliver that. It looks to me like you have decided on a tool and are trying to make it fit.

    This is just me but I would back up and figure out what information you want to know and understand and how you want to demonstrate that to people.

    It seems like you have way to many questions to already have decided on an analysis method.

    Just as a side note you said you want to analyze averages. If you do not look at standard deviation of some for of dispersion you can miss the whole story.

    Just my opinion.

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    #211437

    leanmx
    Participant

    Reposting my original question, I’m responding myself.
    I thought deeper in the question and I think that doesn’t apply to use average values.
    My original approach was to have data captured of several runs of products and to use as a base an average value which would be a representation to be analized in the vsm.
    Now I think is an error, I think the best option is to run several runs, but to analyze each run and take the data which is important to make improvements (kaizen). If I consider average values, I could be missing important values (Low and high) which could be lost when values were averaged.
    My idea is to remove wastes.
    Please give some feedback

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    #211445

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    leanmx I think you need to look at means and averages. Lets say you decide you want to compare A and B using a 2 sample t-test. Before you can decide on the correct formula for the t-test you need to decide on if the variances are equal. You will have the numbers run the calculations this all automated so it isn’t an issue of work.

    I still hear you talking about tools and not specifically what information you are trying to understand. go back to the basic questions 1. what do I want to know 2. How do I want to see it. Once you can answer those two question it will be pretty easy for anyone to help you determine the best tool to use.

    Right now this like winking at someone in the dark. You are the only one that knows what you are doing.

    Just my opinion.

    1
    #211446

    leanmx
    Participant

    Thanks Mike
    1 What I want to know Is: to detect wastes in my manufacturing processes (nva).
    The idea is to have people watching/measuring what people do, registering activities, time spent, wip, CT,co,reworks, quantity of rejected product, machines time down, OEE and more
    2 How I want to see them?
    Well once I gather all data,to draw the current vsm, then analyze it and defined actions to remove wastes.
    For this I’ll draw the future VSM, of course afterwords to do the follow up, an a effective ness of actions.
    Thanks

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    #211448

    Strayer
    Participant

    We use VSM to redesign the process, to identify and to eliminate or minimize NVA operations in an improved process. You aren’t ready to go there and you’re trying to boil the ocean from what you said in your original question and last comment. Instead I advise you to simply map the process with a step-by-step flowchart, which may already exist, identify significant NVA (wastes) which the people who do the work probably know if you ask them, and choose one for a DMAIC project.

    2
    #211449

    leanmx
    Participant

    Thanks strayer
    Well, maybe I didn’t explain it clear in my original post.
    There was a confusion regarding to use average values, which was cleared up my last post.
    What I want to do is what you do, to find NVA, I think the difference with what you do, in my opinion, is that I want to gather more data (time spent in activities, failures in Machines and so on).
    Don’t you think is recommended?
    As I told you I’m new in this field, and I do appreciate any comments coming from experienced people like you.
    Why you are not agree with my pl ans? Please explain
    Thank you.

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    #211451

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Leanmx This is just my opinion but you are going to lose management support with all your data plans right at day 1. To much detail. You need to spend some time (not a lot) how to deal with High A personalities. Any discussion with them over 10 minutes is an issue. They are naturally inclined to jump into and take over conversations that quickly. People can do all their leadership rants and raves on servant leadership but they are the people in the chair now and that is their inborn proclivity. They will nod their head on the leadership jargon but at the end of the day their DNA is High A.

    If you take those production lines you know what they produced in terms of raw numbers of product for probably as long as they have been made. You can go to budgets and identify Material cost and Labor. There should be something that tells you budgeted cost to run the building per day. Now you take the number of units you sold (not built – sold) and you determine what they should have cost to make (there should be a budgeted cost per unit you can get to). That is the cost of perfection. Get the financial data and find out what you spent (it will be higher). Subtract your perfection from your actually and that is the money you wasted because they were not built perfectly. You put that on a relatively simple chart for management because they think and talk money and you show it to them. Now you have their attention and the accounting types won’t argue with you because it is their data. Show it to the accountants before you show it to management so they don’t comeback after you are done and torpedo you. Mention to management they have agreed with your numbers.

    Out of that Analysis you will have two significant piles 1. Labor 2. material Start chasing your data there.

    I know everybody wants to do VSM’s and stuff because it is all really cool and the rage with CI types. Here is what happened to me. I went into a factory on a consulting job. First meeting was with the Plant Manager who had about a 2 inch thick binder full of VSM’s of everything in the plant and this was a simple process. Once we were past the meet and greet he pushed the document across the table and said “wft am I supposed to do with that?” I told him is was a working document for me and not to worry about it. VSMs are crappy communication tools outside your team unless your management uses them and understands they.

    For you take your 2 piles and use tree diagrams (for accountants Dupont charts) and chase the money back (COGS breaks up into what?) to what operations generated it and you will have a starting point and know that because you used the accounting system to get to projects when you fix something that cost rolls right back up the same flow. I saived $10k it should roll right back up the same path that got you to that operation. It accounting says it doesn’t show up then it is their issue to explain why it doesn’t flow through the system.

    We do a lot of esoteric talk about tools and philosophy and all kinds of nice CI nonsense. The concept we lost is the “language of business is money” Management has superficial interest in things like Cpk, cycle time, affinity diagrams, etc. That was a commonly understood thing in the 80’s. I had a very top level CEO walk past me after about 4 hours of project reviews with great results but his comment to me was “I don’t want to ever see another fXXXing GR&R.” That is a quote.

    People make this complicated. It isn’t. It has a level of complexity that should be driven by the problem not the tool you want to use. Think results not tools. Mentally when you work a process you take what you know to formulate questions about what you want to know. Tools are used to answer those questions and they create more questions. It is about thinking your way through the problem. Questions and answers will eventually give you results. You will be judged by management i.e. your personal credibility on results not your VSM.

    The other issue with management (High A’s) is they are impatient. You need to feed them progress on a fairly regular basis. If you don’t talk to them they will come see you and talk AT you. If I were you I would start producing something at least by tomorrow for them. This is that feed the gorilla thing.

    Just my opinion

    1
    #211483

    leanmx
    Participant

    Thanks Mike for your time an valuable comments.
    I´m answering in bold below each paragraph

    Leanmx This is just my opinion but you are going to lose management support with all your data plans right at day 1. To much detail. You need to spend some time (not a lot) how to deal with High A personalities. Any discussion with them over 10 minutes is an issue. They are naturally inclined to jump into and take over conversations that quickly. People can do all their leadership rants and raves on servant leadership but they are the people in the chair now and that is their inborn proclivity. They will nod their head on the leadership jargon but at the end of the day their DNA is High A.

    In my case is a a small business (50 people) and top management supports this little project and people who is involved most of them are operators (not manager nor directors), so I expect no to face such DNA

    If you take those production lines you know what they produced in terms of raw numbers of product for probably as long as they have been made. You can go to budgets and identify Material cost and Labor. There should be something that tells you budgeted cost to run the building per day. Now you take the number of units you sold (not built – sold) and you determine what they should have cost to make (there should be a budgeted cost per unit you can get to). That is the cost of perfection. Get the financial data and find out what you spent (it will be higher). Subtract your perfection from your actually and that is the money you wasted because they were not built perfectly. You put that on a relatively simple chart for management because they think and talk money and you show it to them. Now you have their attention and the accounting types won’t argue with you because it is their data. Show it to the accountants before you show it to management so they don’t comeback after you are done and torpedo you. Mention to management they have agreed with your numbers.

    In this point as you say, is possible to detect what is a result of NVA actions translated to money as a total, but my idea is to register events which are causes of NVA, such as Toyota 7 wastes (motion, reworks, inventory, etc.), don´t you think is a more productive action on my side than simple checking of the differences in money of NVA?

    Out of that Analysis you will have two significant piles 1. Labor 2. material Start chasing your data there.
    I know everybody wants to do VSM’s and stuff because it is all really cool and the rage with CI types. Here is what happened to me. I went into a factory on a consulting job. First meeting was with the Plant Manager who had about a 2 inch thick binder full of VSM’s of everything in the plant and this was a simple process. Once we were past the meet and greet he pushed the document across the table and said “wft am I supposed to do with that?” I told him is was a working document for me and not to worry about it. VSMs are crappy communication tools outside your team unless your management uses them and understands they.

    in my case, Top management (Director) understands very well this tool and is supporting the project

    For you take your 2 piles and use tree diagrams (for accountants Dupont charts) and chase the money back (COGS breaks up into what?) to what operations generated it and you will have a starting point and know that because you used the accounting system to get to projects when you fix something that cost rolls right back up the same flow. I saived $10k it should roll right back up the same path that got you to that operation. It accounting says it doesn’t show up then it is their issue to explain why it doesn’t flow through the system.
    We do a lot of esoteric talk about tools and philosophy and all kinds of nice CI nonsense. The concept we lost is the “language of business is money” Management has superficial interest in things like Cpk, cycle time, affinity diagrams, etc. That was a commonly understood thing in the 80’s. I had a very top level CEO walk past me after about 4 hours of project reviews with great results but his comment to me was “I don’t want to ever see another fXXXing GR&R.” That is a quote.

    In this point the Director knows perfectly about CPK, Cycle time,lead time,etc., a question for you, do you think that now in most of business, the directors are not interested in this stuff?

    People make this complicated. It isn’t. It has a level of complexity that should be driven by the problem not the tool you want to use. Think results not tools. Mentally when you work a process you take what you know to formulate questions about what you want to know. Tools are used to answer those questions and they create more questions. It is about thinking your way through the problem. Questions and answers will eventually give you results. You will be judged by management i.e. your personal credibility on results not your VSM.

    Well, in this case I have not compromised goals, e.g. to reduce wastes by xx%, or increase productivity in XX%, the goal is to analyze the processes and detect wastes and do what is necessary to improve processes (Kaizen)

    The other issue with management (High A’s) is they are impatient. You need to feed them progress on a fairly regular basis. If you don’t talk to them they will come see you and talk AT you. If I were you I would start producing something at least by tomorrow for them. This is that feed the gorilla thing.

    Yes I know, as an advantage for me is that Director trust fully in my plans with the scope
    that both he an I have planned

    For me something which shook my head is what you said, regarding that management doesn´t take into consideration cycle time, cpk, etc.?

    Then who thinks in this way, how do they drive their businesses successfully?

    Hope you can understand my explanations.

    Thanks

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    #211484

    leanmx
    Participant

    Sorry Mike, Bolding didn´t work, I hope can be understood.

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    #211521

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Leanmx No worries on the use of bold. In my last message to you I tried to use bold italics and got bold with the following sentence in italics (I think that was me though.

    Ok now I am more perplexed. Small company, bought in management. You can’t dump about 6-10 of your best into a room with a process flow chart, 2 questions on the wall (same as before) and a few piles of post it notes for the group. Answer question #1 and then put everything on the process map (not a VSM) that everybody knows for a fact (one color) and what everybody thinks (hypothesis) in another color.

    Now have everybody read it and ask questions. Now do question #2.

    Ask them if they want a VSM. Put a plan together for what information goes on the VSM. If you look at VSM examples there are some pretty consistent metrics. I wouldn’t skip those even if nobody wants them (you don’t have to post it but there is a reason it is pretty consistent). Go build your VSM.

    There is very likely a lot I am not understanding about this problem. If the organization is that small unless this is some cutting edge technology, this seems like a lot of time when you are small enough that you don’t really have that much of a communication issue. Things seem to be pretty much in the open. I would think that the process of setting this up is more frustrating to them (just as a fyi I am a High A personality).

    I wouldn’t want to do this everyday but I was sent into a facility with 2 days – took 3 to the financial analysis I suggested and VSM on two process. Normally 3 people 5 days. Done in 3 days by 1 person. Nobody believed my data so it was redone in 5 bays by 3 people with my original results being conservative but not off by more than 5%. Never had seen the process before. I don’t know anything special but I know first pass is going to change the more I learn. If you make a mistake nobody goes to statistical jail but what you are doing right now is not teaching you anything new about your process.

    Just my opinion.

    0
    #211526

    leanmx
    Participant

    Thanks Mike
    First off, I appreciate your attention to help me understand more about lean.
    My comments below each paragraph.

    Ok now I am more perplexed. Small company, bought in management. You can’t dump about 6-10 of your best into a room with a process flow chart, 2 questions on the wall (same as before) and a few piles of post it notes for the group. Answer question #1 and then put everything on the process map (not a VSM) that everybody knows for a fact (one color) and what everybody thinks (hypothesis) in another color.
    Now have everybody read it and ask questions. Now do question #2.
    Ask them if they want a VSM. Put a plan together for what information goes on the VSM. If you look at VSM examples there are some pretty consistent metrics. I wouldn’t skip those even if nobody wants them (you don’t have to post it but there is a reason it is pretty consistent). Go build your VSM.

    In my case , I´m not going to ask everything to operating people about the processes (I know in deep the processes, I will draw flow charts and what is needed, in this activity what I expect from them is compromise and cooperation to give me some data, because other data will be captured on “live” when a requirement of the client arrives to my office.

    I plan to monitor everything, starting from a date/time client sent a PO, who into my company received the PO, how long it took this last person to pass the production order to the planner, which activities were performed and time spent,etc., ending when product arrives with client.
    There is very likely a lot I am not understanding about this problem. If the organization is that small unless this is some cutting edge technology, this seems like a lot of time when you are small enough that you don’t really have that much of a communication issue. Things seem to be pretty much in the open. I would think that the process of setting this up is more frustrating to them (just as a fyi I am a High A personality).
    I consider for the gathering of data, will take time, but not too much, Our work production orders takes at most 2 days, and I will take samples of each line of production (3 for each line)
    Additionally, they are willing to help me in this project.
    I wouldn’t want to do this everyday but I was sent into a facility with 2 days – took 3 to the financial analysis I suggested and VSM on two process. Normally 3 people 5 days. Done in 3 days by 1 person. Nobody believed my data so it was redone in 5 bays by 3 people with my original results being conservative but not off by more than 5%. Never had seen the process before. I don’t know anything special but I know first pass is going to change the more I learn. If you make a mistake nobody goes to statistical jail but what you are doing right now is not teaching you anything new about your process.

    In my case by gathering real data (time spent, motions, reworks, machine failures, etc), want to discover NVA activities and apply 5S´s, Some sort of TPM, Kaizen in order to improve the processes thus eliminating NVA causes.

    I hope is understood my plan.
    I hope other members can share their experiences in cases like this.
    Thanks

    0
    #211532

    Katie Barry
    Keymaster

    @leanmx and @mike-carnell — Here’s a short video that shows you how to add formatting to posts. Let me know if you continue have any troubles! https://www.useloom.com/share/1e2ff45318dc41a69eafa6137ecfd464

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    #211557

    leanmx
    Participant

    Here again reposting bur corrected, thanks to Katie

    Thanks Mike
    First off, I appreciate your attention to help me understand more about lean.
    My comments below each paragraph in italic
    Ok now I am more perplexed. Small company, bought in management. You can’t dump about 6-10 of your best into a room with a process flow chart, 2 questions on the wall (same as before) and a few piles of post it notes for the group. Answer question #1 and then put everything on the process map (not a VSM) that everybody knows for a fact (one color) and what everybody thinks (hypothesis) in another color.
    Now have everybody read it and ask questions. Now do question #2.
    Ask them if they want a VSM. Put a plan together for what information goes on the VSM. If you look at VSM examples there are some pretty consistent metrics. I wouldn’t skip those even if nobody wants them (you don’t have to post it but there is a reason it is pretty consistent). Go build your VSM.
    In my case , I´m not going to ask everything to operating people about the processes (I know in deep the processes, I will draw flow charts and what is needed, in this activity what I expect from them is compromise and cooperation to give me some data, because other data will be captured on “live” when a requirement of the client arrives to my office.
    I plan to monitor everything, starting from a date/time client sent a PO, who into my company received the PO, how long it took this last person to pass the production order to the planner, which activities were performed and time spent,etc., ending when product arrives with client.

    There is very likely a lot I am not understanding about this problem. If the organization is that small unless this is some cutting edge technology, this seems like a lot of time when you are small enough that you don’t really have that much of a communication issue. Things seem to be pretty much in the open. I would think that the process of setting this up is more frustrating to them (just as a fyi I am a High A personality).
    I consider for the gathering of data, will take time, but not too much, Our work production orders takes at most 2 days, and I will take samples of each line of production (3 for each line)
    Additionally, they are willing to help me in this project.

    I wouldn’t want to do this everyday but I was sent into a facility with 2 days – took 3 to the financial analysis I suggested and VSM on two process. Normally 3 people 5 days. Done in 3 days by 1 person. Nobody believed my data so it was redone in 5 bays by 3 people with my original results being conservative but not off by more than 5%. Never had seen the process before. I don’t know anything special but I know first pass is going to change the more I learn. If you make a mistake nobody goes to statistical jail but what you are doing right now is not teaching you anything new about your process.
    In my case by gathering real data (time spent, motions, reworks, machine failures, etc), want to discover NVA activities and apply 5S´s, Some sort of TPM, Kaizen in order to improve the processes thus eliminating NVA causes.
    I hope is understood my plan.

    I hope other members can share their experiences in cases like this.
    Thanks

    0
    #211593

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Leanmx I think this is where we differ. You said “in this activity what I expect from them is compromise and cooperation to give me some data,” That is a fair expectation but I wouldn’t even be thinking about it. You are documenting “current state.” You take what they give you and ask questions. I am not real sure what they will need to compromise on because you are just documenting what exists.

    Cooperation is always good. Observation I prefer. When I show up I am always an outsider (consultant) so it takes a couple days for people to get used to me being around. I tell them I am going to ask stupid question and apologize in advance. Then they tolerate a bunch of questions. Those questions and tell me what they believe to be true. That and the map are perception. Once they are used to you a few days sitting back and watching or actually trying some of the jobs makes it easier to make decisions on NVA.

    You need to be very careful of making those decisions. For example most lean people want to eliminate queues. I was working on a bottling line that had a well managed automatic queue of about 1500 pieces. Lean people were throwing fits. They wanted it gone because WIP is bad. Theoretically it is. This line ran at about 500 pieces per minute so that queue was a 3 minute queue. It kept us from shutting down for small issues but labeling was the serious issue in terms of defects. Playing with a 3 minute queue ahead of labeling really was not going to improve things. Just something to consider.

    I normally identify the top 3 bottlenecks and work all three. If you focus on just the top bottleneck and break it loose but #2 is close you get next to zero improvement. When you do the top 3 you are going to see a difference and you want to see how the line runs with the improvements.

    Kaizens are interesting. Most people use them to create lists of action items and then go back to work. Set an expectation of 90% completed action items out of the event and maybe on the first few 80% until they get the hang of it.

    5S is nice but management will see it as housekeeping and you will struggle to explain quantitatively what you did.

    It sounds to me like you have a plan. Now you need to execute.

    Just my opinion.

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