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  • #34565

    BankBelt
    Participant

    I’ve Been offered a spot with BOFA, any insight?  Seems chaotic, the in house recruiter has been a nightmare as well.

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    #95421

    Savage
    Participant

    I’m always amazed at how many BB we see on here asking for advise and they can’t even do a simple search.
    Well, here’s just one of several threads regarding BofA.  You ca nsearch for plenty more, but this one is pretty good.  Both sides are argued.
    https://www.isixsigma.com/forum/showmessage.asp?messageID=35191

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    #95423

    outofbofa
    Participant

    If you are a serious professional don’t take the job it’s a joke organization I was there about two years left a 10 year career at GE uprooted the family to move to a backward city of Charlotte BOFA is incredibly political, if you speak your mind, w/o getting it ok’d you will be banished!  You can do better somewhere else. 
     

    Interview process:  I was lied to from the get go, recruiting (bald guy?) and the rest of the HR organization were amateurs plain and simple, they couldn;t answer basic questions regarding the program or the company.  Poorest HR group I’ve seen in a company.  Very poor Six Sigma group in HR as well.   I was also promised a good amount of stock and recieved about 1/4 of what was promised.
    Change in the Six Sigma Leadership: Truth is the first leader of Six Sigma was fired for speaking his mind and letting mgmt know they had some issues with their old boy network, actually adding input and pointing out deficiencies is a big no no here, he was let go and a career bank beuracrat with no Six Sigma experience was put in his place. The new leader won’t challenge anything, so he’s a star.
    No CEO buy-in:  Lewis is cowtowing to analysts, he knows expense control is a buzz word on the street and the analysts love to hear it, truth is  if it works he’ll take credit for it.  If it doesn’t he’ll distance himself from it (he has done this his whole career)
    The CEO did not do a real project:  This is true.  Mr. Lewis had all his data, etc prepared for him and he simply signed off, he did not attend training classes, he had a project prepared for him and he watched.
    Living in Charlotte is bad:  Charlotte is a hot small city, people that like it are from smaller cities, it’s schools are dangerous (NC is ranked 48 of 50) in education.  They pay teachers nothing and the “choice” plan they have for schools is flawed, it is also a city with urban creep all over, you can be in a nice neighberhood and then a ghetto in the blink of an eye.  There is no culture to speak of.  Lot’s of striveres constantley defending the place.  There is an aristiocracy of old south money who are very unfreindly and rude.  This is the most unfreindly place I;ve lived.  If you value your kids education you will have to spend a lot of money for private school.
    People who claim it’s great are overpaid and scared: Exactly, see above if you lose a six figure job in Charlotte, there aren’t many here, many mid level 60-80K jobs and that is about it.  People at the bank will do anything to protect their job as such it is highly political. 
    Working for an insider with no knowledge about Six Sigma:  With a chip on their shoulder and an attitude toward you because you make good money and are probably a heck of a lot smarter may I add.
    Broken promises on the relocation plan:  I lost money on my relocation my “recruiter” flat out lied,
    Personnel is a joke:  Yes personnel is the worst run organization I came across in the company and their keep their job  mentality  at all costs trickles down into mgmt.  They are supposed to be training leaders, yet they are incompetent bullies and are feared in the company.
    BB/MBB is a lifetime role:  I heard a rumour that 75% of the program will be gone in 5 years.  It is simply window dressing, as soon as 40-50K/yr people are trained all high level MBB/BB’s will be laid off.  I do believe this.
    BB/MBBs not in leadership positions: depends what you mean by “leadership” an outsider will never be allowed to have a leadership spot, all MBB’s and BB’s will report up to a line manager.
    Savings are not real: they are way overblown, some savings, but they are having trouble tying to the financials.
    Neighbor has been trained and just knows about dropping babies and water: The training group is flat and not respected by the rest of the bank being that they are most peoples first intro to Six Sigma, it’s not good.
    See Ya!! what a waste!

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    #95493

    Dr. Steve W.
    Participant

    The commitment from the senior manage is 2nd to none. Mr. Lewis believes in 6S more than probably any active CEO, he is very knowledgable and probably more knowledgable than you are b/c he was trained by probably the best 6S trainer in this business.
    A lot of BBs and MBBs have been promoted to leadership roles. A lot of MBBs and BBs at BOA are from GE speak very highly of BOA 6S program even in private. These former MBBs feel BOA’s commitment to 6S is as strong as, if not stronger than, GEs.
     

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    #95500

    Mikel
    Member

    So who is the best trainer in the business?

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    #95507

    exboabelt
    Participant

    Excuse me “Dr”, your use of your ridiculous title in your name and post tell on your self and your text book pretentiousness.  I have no doubt that you like it at BOFA because you can hide behind textbook methodologies without having to show any results.
    Out of Boa hit it on the head and your reference to GE belts speaking in “private” is indicative of hushed politics that dominate the organization.  Real players aren’t there.
     

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    #95510

    srp
    Member

    “Excuse me “Dr”, your use of your ridiculous title in your name and post tell on your self and your text book pretentiousness. I have no doubt that you like it at BOFA because you can hide behind textbook methodologies without having to show any results.”Hey Dr.: This sounds like a fool who failed out of grad school. A lot of people on this board are a bunch of over employed charlatans. I find it hilarious to see the jealousy on this board when a poster says he/she has a PhD. As a previous poster said, you see many people claiming to be a BB or MBB and from their questions, they don’t seem to have a clue about research and stats. They play with Minitab, run stats, and have no idea of what they are reading.

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    #95520

    Dr. Steve W.
    Participant

    failed at a U, (s)he tends to have bitter feeling toward that U.. He is trying to launch a personal attack when he does not have facts.
    BOA has about 200 MBBs/BBs and majority of them like what they see and the direction the 6S program is moving. Opinions vary and you can never make everyone happy even with a great program.
    Anyone is entitled to his/her own feeling, but do not viciously attack a program on this public domain and that is when I feel like I need to defend.

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    #95522

    Dr. Ken
    Participant

    Yes, another Ph.D. employed at BOA.  I would dare stack up the credentials AND IMPLEMENTATION EXPERIENCE of our staff against any of the cry babies who didn’t do their homework and who possibly made a bad career move.  Don’t feel bad, it happens.  I am a former GE SS professional who speaks publicly about our success.  I don’t doubt that “outofboa” experienced what he did nor that he was sorry about his decision to take the position.  I would suggest that he restrict his comments to his PERSONAL EXPERIENCES rather than paint a global picture which does not reflect the truth as many of us see it.  He must have been really high in the organization to have had such personal insight into what went on with the CEO and former Q&P Exec…..NOT!!!!!

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    #95523

    mman
    Participant

    Congratulation.You just hit the target.I agree with you as I’m also suffering from those PHD pretenders,who let their “vague”title work for them.Unfortunatly a lot of business people prefer to be misguided by those “Dr.Experts”. Do you agree with me??   regards.   MMAN 

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    #95524

    webegeek
    Member

    So, was this any help? Do you have any other questions?

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    #95526

    Dr. Ken
    Participant

    Sounds like PhD envy.  My PhD was acquired in 1984 after 3 years in school.  This has been followed by 20 years of working and consulting in the field not academia.  Why doesn’t the fact that I and others like me have worked at implementing and driving quality in hundreds of companies around the world count….possibly while many of our detractors were still in elementary school or working for one or two companies their entire career.  If you recall, the leaders in the field, Deming and Juran had PhD’s.  Are they also hacks?  It seems many organizations allowed themselves to be guided by these men.  Jack Welch has a PhD, is he a hack as well.  Why not accept the fact that many of us are accomplished practioners and not academicians and stop feeling so threatened by the fact that we had the initiative and fortitude to advance our knowledge and you chose not to.  This forum seems to have deteriorated to making global and dogmatic statements about people, companies and ideas rather than being a place for open sharing and acceptance of what we can all learn from each other. 

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    #95530

    mman
    Participant

    Dr.Ken
       I should apology first as I have no intention to attack your “honored” title or your accomplishment.Nobody has this right.I have always (trough my career)  worked with several “PHD ” holders whom I pocessed full respect for them due to their wide knowledge and comprehensive deep understanding of the topics and problems.Actually I was answering a message talking about the another type “Vague” (Dr. holders) ….with their lot of mess (as I know and you properly have faced one of them during  your career).I think you would agree with me on this point,kind regards.   MMAN  

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    #95533

    Mikel
    Member

    so who is this best 6s practioneer who trained the BOA CEO?

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    #95543

    Peppe
    Participant

    Too much discussion, started as sixsigma discussion, become “personal” discussion.  A moderator is absolutely necessary, without forum’s people education on the matter….
    Best Regards

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    #95567

    Darth
    Participant

    Since Mr. Lewis was one of the first trained at BOA, the initial wave of SS practitioners came from Allied Signal and GE.  Mr. Lewis’s trainer and mentor, I believe, was one of the senior MBBs out of Allied Signal.  Unfortunately, he does not have a PhD but is still a pretty smart fella.  He is also one of the key developers of the internal MBB program.  It consists of 8 weeks beyond the BB and extends over the course of a year.  Lots of technical content along with extensive project facilitation/coaching and hours of classroom teaching.  Along with a research paper and case study.  All of the senior folks at BOA were coached by a senior MBB with a minimum of a decade of SS/Quality experience.  The same model will be used at FleetBoston.

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    #95568

    Dr. Ken
    Participant

    I accept your apology.  I get just as passionate when I hear that some PhD college professor with limited experience, doing SS a day a week has declared themselves to be an “expert” and even goes so far as to offer “certification” for a GB/BB.  I feel that diminishes the value of all the hardworking SS professionals who do it for a living and not as a sideline.

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    #95571

    DaveG
    Participant

    Wow!
    Isaac Asimov’s mechanic once asked him if he was a Doctor, to which Asimov puffed up and replied Yes, he was.  The mechanic, noting Asimov’s unfamiliarity with basic auto repair, said “Anyone who needed that much education couldn’t be very smart.”

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    #95589

    mman
    Participant

    Dr.Kin
    I agree fully with you as you have described the on-going practice in a perfect way.I hope this forum would help to minimize such bad practices (if possible).Thank YOU for your positive response ,hope to be able to exchange some constructive ideas and opinions,kind regards.

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    #95600

    webegeek
    Member

    I didn’t mind the discussion, I actually found it interesting. I’d attended a Six Sigma in Financial Services seminar last summer and BoA was a major participant in the seminar.But at some point I wondered if this was helping the person who is trying to decide his future.

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    #95607

    Schuette
    Participant

    So who was this masked man.  I also came out of Allieds MBB program and would love to know who this guy is so I can give him/her a call (if we know eachother).

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    #95611

    mman
    Participant

    A very meaninful “Metaphor”

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    #95650

    Happy
    Participant

    I’m a BB here at the bank, I’m treated well, paid decent and have career opportunities (If I’m willing to work hard, just because I’m a BB does not mean everything will be handed to me). 
    The bank is not perfect, we are still trying to work the kinks out, however pleased don’t be swayed by the bitterness of a few miss placed people.
    If you are good, please accept the offer.  If you are one of BB/MBB’s that has overstated the worth, save us all the pain and keep your current job.

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    #95664

    Martínez
    Participant

    BOA sounds as bad as Home Depot’s six sigma program.

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    #95669

    Darth
    Participant

    And a description of the success of your organization’s SS effort and financial performance would lead me to conclude……what?

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    #95670

    Darth
    Participant

    Nicely put, thanks from all of us who are happy and proud of the work at BOA.  I sure don’t see anyone else putting forth why and how their companies and SS efforts are so successful.  Cheap shots based on a few malcontents is behavior below that expected from this illustrious Forum.

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    #95678

    Sigmordial
    Member

    To Webegeek’s point, there are some rather passionate comments on both sides.  Current BoA folks love it, ex-BoA folks who have issues These issues do tend to be rather sour grape’ish, though — those that can, do; those that cannot, leave (or are asked to leave) and then post rationalizations on a public forum to justify failure. 
    If I were making a career decision regarding employment at BoA, I would rely upon more than just these comments.  Research BoA’s performance as well as their commitment.  I have noticed that BoA has been strong contributors to various Six Sigma forums and conventions, including ASQ’s last big shin-dig in Arizona. 
    On the PhD comments — come on Folks.  Let’s try and practice what we are preaching.  Despite the fact that you had a bad experience with 1 or 2 PhDs does not enable you to form generalizations upon the whole lot of professionals.  That Dr. is an honorific that I have no problem observing — they took the time and the effort to achieve this. 

    As an aside, we Six Sigma professionals also have our titles and honorifics that we like to highlight — “Certified MBB”, “Certified BB”. 
     

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    #95682

    Darth
    Participant

    Well said, Thom :-).

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    #95703

    BankBelt
    Participant

    Thanks for all the feedback, I’ve decided to pass on the BOA opportunity, some nice people there, but they were justifying something a bit too much which scared me, the HR rep or recruiter also was very abrasive and non-welcoming (raising their voice demanding an answer), so I’ve decided to stay where I am.

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    #95892

    Martínez
    Participant

    That the HD program is dead in the water. Poorly staffed. 90% turnover of six sigma personnel. Belts finishing projects in improve as no one will implement their solutions. The rest sounds much like the BOA post above, right down to putting leader in place that doesn’t know 6 sigma

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    #95893

    boa inrearviewmirror
    Participant

    AMEN!!!  Well said….I am an ex GE’er as well……left a 9 year GE career for that joke of an org…..what a waste.  Stay away from that pit!

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    #96094

    MBB Facts
    Participant

    I can only add one more data point with regards to BoA. I have worked as a MBB for two large multinational companies and every so often I like to test he waters and see what other firms are doing.I have recently interviewed with BoA for a senior MBB role. There we multiple openings with different groups and I interviewed with a cross section of high level managers, MBBs and executives. Quick perceptions:- Recruiting staff is not much knowledgeable about 6S and the roles. They did their job as far as arranging for the trip and organizing the schedule of interviews. Post interview follow up was quick and they expect a decision fast. Not sure if that’s their standard or if there is an urgent need to fill some of the roles they are interviewing for. – The MBBs were polite and knowledgeable. We had great exchanges about the strengths and weaknesses of the program at BoA and at other companies. There is some level of uncertainty among them on whether the bank will stick with them in the long run. Not quite sure where some of the fear comes from but it seems that they consider themselves a bit overpaid and lacking stronger support from their direct leaders. (Note here: as it is usual in the beginning stages of 6S implementation, top management support exists but the layers just below that the MBBs report to are still a bit resistant). MBBs also reported a higher level of organizational politics than what they were used to. In my opinion, this is normal in the initial stages of implementation in a transactional environment, let alone in a bank with historically rigid structures.- Most executives and leaders I interviewed with were courteous and candid. It seemed to me that they are still “buying into the 6S thing”, have seen some improvement and are willing to push forward (with the CEO’s directive).- I had never been to Charlotte before. The city seemed ok to me. People were friendly enough and both BoA and Wachovia have prominent presence in the downtown area.- I was offered positions in two different roles in the organization. The offers were competitive from a total compensation standpoint. Due to my career prospects at my current employer and the unwillingness to uproot my family at the moment, I have declined the offers.Once again, these are just my perceptions based on this one experience. I believe BoA, like all other organizations, has challenges and opportunities to overcome in implementing 6S. They have assembled a good group of 6S professionals and are attempting to change their culture. Time will tell if they will be successful. Ken Lewis has openly admitted in the latest Six Sigma forum magazine that the bank has saved $2 billion already with 6S. Soft or hard money, that’s a number that the CEO is putting his signature under. That’s positive.I will be glad to answer questions regarding BoA and other large companies I have interviewed with or benchmarked (Sony, Home Depot, Nestle, etc).Best regards to all.MBB Facts

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    #96098

    Adam L Bowden
    Participant

    Dear “MBB Facts”
    I like your brutal honesty – it is certainly reflective of other transactional / Financial organizations.
    Best regards,
    Adam

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    #96099

    chngagent
    Participant

    MBB Facts are certainly more respresentative on my dealings with bofa. I was extended and offer after interviewing with them in there Q&P. Due to the fact that I have a manufacturing background I found there SS program to be a little different that what “I” was accustomed to. I declined the job but have since taking a role with another manufacturing company as a BB.
    I have a friend that took a similar job that was offered to me around the same time and HATES the position. I would suggest anyone to just do there homework. Charlotte is a good place in terms of growth and I don’t think the people at bofa are not representative of the people in Charlotte as a whole.
    Good luck to anyone who is thinking about making a career move. It is always a big step.
    My 2 cents.

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    #96106

    Darth
    Participant

    Thanks for sharing your experiences.  It was a balanced and thoughtful post unlike many of the previous whiners and moaners.  I am sorry you have made the decision not to join BOA because I feel you would have been a very positive addition to the staff.  Good luck to you.

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    #96109

    Ruddy
    Participant

    I am a master black belt with 7 years of experience from one of the leaders….I was offered employment by BOA and as others have suggested…formulated my own opinion…..not a chance in hell after my interview experience….!  That program is at the cusp of disaster….my guess is that in less than 2 years, it’s history, without a serious six sigma leader, rather than a veteran BAC insider who won’t shake the establishment where it needs to be shaken….ie the previous guy who got the parachute once he challeneged Lewis.  Those “saving’s” I have heard about at all the six sigma conferences from BOA ‘ers must have been calculated by Enron’s accountants. 

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    #96115

    Bethany
    Participant

    MBB Facts,
    Thanks so much for your balanced and fair post. I just received my copy of ASQ’s Six Sigma Forum and only had a chance to glance at the cover promoting B of A’s Six Sigma program. Having been a member for a year (since I became a BB) I know that it’s going to highlight the great things B of A has done, which will most likely belie the reality faced by the BBs and MBBs on the line.
    I would just like to say “thank you!” for sharing your thoughts and for this forum being in existence. It is a real diamond in my six sigma life and I cherish the valuable experiences and information I gather daily.
    Sincerely,Bethany

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    #96117

    Bbless
    Participant

    What did you think of  Sony, Nestle and Home Depot?
    Also, who are you with now?

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    #96126

    BoA MBB
    Participant

    After >5 yrs as a MBB, mostly doing international work, I started with BoA ~6 months ago. OK, so the interview process was not impressive, and Charlotte is growing so fast it has traffic and infrastructure problems, but my experience has been positive. I find Charlotte people are polite, very open socially, and are even reasonably friendly drivers.
    And BoA: Some great people trying very hard to do the right things in the right way. Perfect? Not hardly. Trying hard to get it done right? Absolutely!
    As in any organization, there are pockets of excellence and some nooks and corners that certainly have further to go.
    Honestly, the honeymoon is over now, and I seem to have one little surprise after another. And guess what: They continue to be positive surprises for the most part. Way more good than bad surprises — both in frequency and magnitude.
    As to the estimates of project returns. Hard savings are pretty solid estimates — definitely data based. Estimates of soft savings are, well, soft. Are some overestimated? Probably. I’ll bet some are underestimated too. Ones I’ve reviewed are definitely in the ball park. They are not based on “Enron” accounting methods as suggested. Hey folks, banks can’t get by with that to start with (at least not for very long), and this organization is pretty tight on proper accounting methods and ethical standards. (If I there was any indication otherwise, I would not be here.)
    As to how long the Six Sigma intiative will last, and is there serious leadership behind it? History will tell that story. But I can tell you that there are a lot of folks that certainly believe it is real and is solid for the long term. And I’m one of them. Actually, BoA got into Six Sigma about three years ago but there was a concious decision to not make it particularly public until recent months, after successes were consistently demonstrated over time.
    In my previous life, I worked with dozens of organizations in various stages of SS implementation. BoA is clearly stronger in implementation and is more committed to SS than any company that I worked with. OK, maybe my sample is biased — it was certainly not scientific, and maybe BoA could have fooled me into taking this job. But if it were a facade, I think I would have figured out by now. At least I think I’ve got a better clue than those on the outside puffing all that negative wind.
    I didn’t have to come here, and I certainly don’t have to stay. But from my view, I think I will be here for a long, long time. It’s a fun job and it is actually exciting to be part of this organization.
    BTW: Somewhere in this thread there was a statement of NC being 48 of 50 in schools? I don’t think so. Seems I saw something in the Clarlotte paper about the local people being upset about Charlotte schools being 24th in the US. But I’m not a native of NC and I don’t have kids in school so that’s not an high interest of mine. But you folks should research the data on that point before making personal plans.

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    #96127

    lawerence
    Participant

    I am.

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    #96128

    Darth
    Participant

    Glad u did your homework.  I am amazed that you could amass such insight and profound knowledge from the outside and can make such incredible predictions without firsthand knowledge and experience.  Sure wish I had your crystal ball since you must be highly successful and currently employed by one of the true leaders in SS.  I think I will update my resume and start looking around as a result of your dire and seemingly definitive statements.  Thanks for the insight.

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    #96157

    Adam L Bowden
    Participant

    Regarding “research the data” there are alot of sources of information out there such as bestplaces.net, Hoovers.com etc – it does not take much work to do the research on either the places of the companies that you target.
    Best regards,
    Adam
     

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    #96182

    sick_of_boa
    Member

    OK, Enough about the BOA six sigma program!  Sounds like alot more negative than positive, and the only positive posts are from (suprise) current employees.  I for one am tired of hearing about Bank of America.  Based off all previous posts, there are obvious issues with the place.  Let those there (who tell us how happy they are) fix the problems.  Then in 5 more years we can read Ken Lewis’s book about what a six sigma pioneer he is and we can forget about Welch and Bossidy.

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    #96195

    Darth
    Participant

    AMEN to that from one of those employees.  I would love to hear about all the great programs which BOA is being compared to.  Would love to hear what their CEO is doing, whether they are GB certified and what is the involvement of senior leadership, what are the SS certified improvements, how the company is performing financially, what kind and how much training employees are receiving.  What makes your SS effort so fantastic compared to our doomed effort.  Maybe we can learn from you and make ours better. I have heard offers to describe the above but haven’t seen any posts yet.  Please tell us what makes your SS effort one to be replicated.  Thanks

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    #96355

    Seven
    Member

    MBB Facts,
    I wish to hear more on the companies you listed in your reply regarding BofA’s 6 sigma initiative (“interviewed or benchmarked”).  Specifically, can you expand on the differences between Sony and Home Depot?  What is making one more successful in its implementation as compared to the other or your experience?
    Thanks,
    Seven

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    #96362

    SSNewby
    Member

    I agree with some of the previous comments in that I find it difficult to understand where a great many are coming from in these postings.   BOA has an in-place Six Sigma program, and I appreciate hearing about it (the positive and the negative) from truly knowledgeable practitioners.   I like to hear about it, and other Six Sigma programs, in order to learn from successes as well as mistakes.   But most of the posts have been the illiterate and vitriol maligning of the BOA program by outsiders and ex-insiders that didn’t seem (for one reason or another) to be a good fit with the BOA program.  Is that what the forum and the Six Sigma mindset are about?  
     
    I am also disappointed with some of my fellow PhDs who, instead of taking the opportunity to give real insights into Six Sigma analytics and the nuances of program applications, tend to leap head first into the mud wrestling pit – and then complain about it.  Step to the plate guys.  Lead, follow, or get out of the way.  Your infelicitous silence is deafening. 
     
    A less optimistic person reading the postings in this forum wouldn’t form a very good opinion of the professionalism and capability of Six Sigma practitioners, but embedded in the rest of the stuff there is occasionally some valuable insight. 
     My 2 cents worth.

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    #96363

    John H.
    Participant

    “Either lead, follow or get out of the way” is a preventative self analysis vaccine for the “whining disease”.
    -John H.

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    #96364

    SSNewby
    Member

     John H.,
     
    Well expressed.
     
    Let he who is without the sin of animadversion cast the first aspersion?  (Ergo don’t point with a muddy hand at the mud pit and complain about mud wrestling?)  
     I agree and will try to follow my own advice…     

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    #97334

    Bambace
    Participant

    Does anyone know much about the CMM program at B of A? I am close to getting an offer and I wanted more informaiton.

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    #97468

    Darth
    Participant

    Haven’t heard much about it in connection with Six Sigma.  Certainly it is consistent with CMM.  I would have thought you gathered all your information during the interview process.

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