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Can I propose Recommendation to improve without data

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  • This topic has 26 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 17 years ago by Mick.
Viewing 27 posts - 1 through 27 (of 27 total)
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  • #39439

    PRASHANTH
    Participant

    Hi Can I propose Recommendation to improve CP without data analysis? I’m asking this question because i’m unable find precise data or there is no data. But sometimes i feel that a specific recommendation will work and surely improve the process/product.I’m working on Improving productivity of employess/ team. this is my 1st black belt project.thanks in advance
    prashanth

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    #119942

    indresh
    Participant

    dear prashanth
    yes surely you can do, in fact experience counts
    but when you follow a Six Sigma rigor, its improvement methodology based on data and root causes identified based on valid set of figures. this shall be aiming it correctly and shooting the arrow to have almost surity that it will hit the bull’s eye
    your gut feel may or may not be the exact solution.
    if you have undergone the training (even basics of Six Sigma) then you must be knowing ” everything can be measured, and till we measure we can’t improve”. do a QFD to link your output to measurable inputs and then collect data
    and still if you have the same question, i suggest undergo the six sigma training once again …………no pun intended
    rgds

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    #119943

    PRASHANTH
    Participant

    indreshYou are right, what you say makes sense.
    Will do that.rgrds
    -prashanth

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    #119986

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Prashanth,
    The answer is you can do anything you can get away with. The question is should you do it. Someone is paying you to do a job and you aren’t doing it.
    If you want to do that kind of stuff and aren’t willing to put in the effort to figure out how to follow the methodology get out of the Six Sigma program and make room for someone who is willing to do the work.
    Personally if I were running your deployment you would be gone already. You’re just the same old story, different chapter.
    Just my opinion.

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    #119988

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    indresh,
    That was a crap piece of advice.
    You need to spend some more time figuring out what you are doing and less time with the cute little pieces of dogma that you apparently don’t understand.
    Rationalize the two staements:
    “yes surely you can do, in fact experience counts” and
    “everything can be measured, and till we measure we can’t improve”
    If you believe the little piece of dogma about everything can be measured then why would you think that you don’t have to back up experience with data. The wost part is the first guy thinks you gave him absolution. He is running around his process changing stuff with his eyes closed using the force to figure out where he will do “Six Sigma” next.
    The worst part is he will be on here in a couple weeks handing out the crap advice your giving.

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    #120002

    Dr. Scott
    Participant

    Prashanth,
    Can I propose Recommendation to improve CP without data analysis?
    No! Why would you even consider such a think without proof? Perhaps you are thinking in terms of “quick hits”. But even they require some level of proof via data.
    I’m asking this question because i’m unable find precise data or there is no data.
    If you can’t find the data. then go get the data. As far as “precise” goes, have you heard of the concept of MSA?
    But sometimes i feel that a specific recommendation will work and surely improve the process/product.
    All those around you “FEEL” the same thing. The did before you got there and do now. They feel a “specific” recommendation will work. How the heck do you know or they know what will work? By asking this question, you sound as inept as any other decision maker or idea maker. You should have, after your first week of training, know MUCH better than to aske such a question. There are quick hits, but they still require some data to prove. Even if after the fact.
    I am sorry if I appear harsh. But you would be a concern if you were one of my students. But please accept my advice, and best of luck on your project and certification.
    Dr. Scott.

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    #120009

    PRASHANTH
    Participant

    Thanks To everyone you have given their time and valuable suggestion.
    First thing is i have not taken Six Sigma lightly. I’m doing justice to the work. I have used all methodologies to collect/validate the same.
    I have given many action recommendations with proof of data. I was having some more suggestions which can improve process before i close the project. So i thought if i think in those line where i recommend action without data. Anyways Thanks again.
    Dr. Scott – You have said it right, “There are quick hits, but they still require some data to prove.”

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    #120011

    indresh
    Participant

    mike carnell.
    you sound as if prior to six sigma people were as idiot and blindfolded as you are now. they never felt the need of experience to take their decision on
    you can’t tell upfront to anybody who is new to six sigma that his experience holds no importance, i hope you are not teaching anywhere. anyways i do take your point and have also written the same that one should have some mesaurables for which one should collect data and then proceed since data only can give validity to your assumption and thereby increase your chances of not making an error
    hope you don’t collect data in your personal life ?????, just a thought and advice to share with you
    enjoy
    cheers
     

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    #120013

    Mikel
    Member

    indresh,
    your advice is that you hope Mike is not teaching and not collecting data is his personal life?
    Pretty stupid advice.

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    #120014

    indresh
    Participant

    you got it wrong buddy, seem to be a diciple of mike are you ??? ;-)
    cheers

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    #120015

    Mikel
    Member

    I don’t have it wrong buddy, read your own words.

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    #120049

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Stan is far from a disciple of mine. He is the one that introduced me to Quality as a profession.

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    #120050

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    indresh,
    You need to stop trying to be so profound. It isn’t working for you.
    “you sound as if prior to six sigma people were as idiot and blindfolded as you are now. they never felt the need of experience to take their decision on”
    Not only do you give crappy advice you have a comprehension problem as well.
    As far as my personal life – it’s none of your business. I have seen your advice and you might do better not to share it.

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    #120052

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    Oxymoron:  Quality as a profession.
    Stan is so old he probably introduced Shewhart to control charts.

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    #120053

    Heydt
    Participant

    I say this…..  In God we Trust – All others must provide data.

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    #120054

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    Mike, keep it up and you too might have your very own J O Club and groupies.

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    #120055

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    We don’t need no stink’in data….we have experience, intuition and gut feelings.  Data is for the weak kneed and chicken hearted.  Any experienced engineer can look at a spreadsheet of rows and columns of numbers and tell all there is about the process.  Statistical analysis is for the feeble minded and weak of will.  Furthermore, we don’t need coherent and grammatically correct writing either.  Any combination of words should be able to convey what we mean and if you can’t understand then you must be an idiot….except for Vinny who puts together brilliantly crafted dialogs but alas, even those are misunderstood by his Padiwan FNG….XXXXXXX New Guy or new Belt or New York or whoever that vitrual buddy of his is.

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    #120059

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Darth,
    I couldn’t take it. I watch you deal with yours and it is like adult day care. You have my most sincere respect.
    Normally when I read stuff like this I just go to the bathroom and wash my mouth out to get rid of the rancid taste. Every now and then a person has to call it like you see it. There wasn’t enough mouth wash in the world to fix this garbage masquerading as enlightenment.
    Regards
     

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    #120060

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Darth,
    Vinny was particularly eloquent last night. I have admit I did laugh the hardest when he got to the part about reaching through the monitor.
    His BOD meeting could be interesting.
    Regards

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    #120067

    walden
    Participant

    Prashanth,
    Don’t think anyone answered your second question:  the answer’s still no, don’t do it.  Why would you want to give back all the data-driven gains you implemented in Improve by implementing “improvements” in Control based on gut feel?
    (Answer for the rhetorically challenged:  you wouldn’t.)
    Chris

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    #120068

    Stevo
    Member

    Mike, I know this is not my thread, however it seems like you are against dogma and BS.  That’s all I got.  IYHO can I still make a quick buck and get out before I’m caught?
    Ps. Who’s your virtual buddy?
    Stevo
     

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    #120071

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Stevo,
    Close. Usually the quality of advice is pretty subjective. In this case the subjectivity was gone. The complete stupidity of the answer was being camouflaged with cute little sound bites to make it sound enlightened.
    In general you got it.
    Can you make a quick buck? Of course – there is always a market for style over substance but it is typically a one time shot at that customer and referals are hard to come by. I would rather put my work into the deployment rather than the marketing.
    I’ve seen enough of your posts that I don’t think you would be willing to deliver just style.
    What is IYHO? Having to ask that can make a person feel old.
    Regards

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    #120074

    Mikel
    Member

    It means In Your Humble Opinion – I think he has you confused with Mikel or Reigle.

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    #120075

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    Stevo, unfortunately Mike has many imaginery friends especially after tipping back a few.  Also, as a schizophrenic, he is never without someone so he probably doesn’t need a new virtual buddy.
    Of course you can make a lot of money with dogma and BS.  Remember “style above substance” will always rule.  Just keep the engine running and cash all client checks quickly and move the funds to the offshore account..

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    #120076

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    I never thought to associate the word Humble with Carnell.  Possibly the Humble Telescope or Humble Pie or Humble Bumble.  But since Carnell is your mentor, at least according to one poster, you can tell us better as to whether he is really humble or not.

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    #120077

    Mikel
    Member

    Last time I checked, neither one of us had room for more than one opinion. Doesn’t leave room for a humble one in addition to your real one.
    I personally leave the humble crap to the cowboys who start their introduction with shucks, I’m just an old farm boy from Ohio.

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    #120078

    Mick
    Participant

    Prashanth,
    Its your business, but consider these points:

    If the improvement is so obvious that it can be done without data or expense, why hasn’t it been done already?
    Who would believe that you’ve improved anything if you don’t have data?  Hopefully not your auditor, or the guys who hands out the bonuses, or your CEO.
    How do you stop the next person from coming along and undoing what you did?  They might have an idea to save a couple of cents by using less of a consumable that your idea requires and lose the dollars saved by your idea.  Data is the only way. (Anecdotal evidence usually doesn’t count, but if its all you have the budget for its better than nothing.  Find a way to turn the stories into data:  The yellow ones taste better than the orange ones because 4 out of 5 dentists agree that they do.)
    If the idea does cost money how are you going to convince the money guys to spend it?  (No evidence means you have to get them very drunk first.)
    Talk to your Master Black Belt about how to measure team productivity.  I’ll bet they have ideas specific to your project.

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