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Catching the Thief

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This topic contains 20 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  Mike Carnell 4 years, 9 months ago.

Viewing 21 posts - 1 through 21 (of 21 total)
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  • #203401 Reply

    @rbutler We suspect that one employee has started to clock in for another employee. We have time stamps for the two people prior to when we think the problem started. There are essentially no matches and times are far enough apart to indicate no cheating. We also have time stamps after we believe the problem began. Times are essentially the same to within a minute. What is the best way to prove statistically that something has happened? Using a simple overlaid time series shows it visually but we need something a little stronger before making an HR case. Thanks Robert or whomever else can help.

    #203419 Reply

    @Darth get up off your butt and watch the employee clock in.

    #203425 Reply

    Probably best to catch him on vid. Right now HR has the clock data and wants to know if there is anything they can statistically prove with what they have. Hard to deny a video loop played in slo mo over and over :-).

    #203435 Reply

    @Darth If one guy is clocking in for another wouldn’t it seem a bit obvious if nobody has seem him in the building? We used to get that on the mines in South Africa. Big difference when you are a km underground and it is dark. There are lots of people you don;t see very often.

    #203443 Reply

    Reputation - 51
    Rank - Aluminum

    Sometimes you just have to resort to good old fashioned managment. Bring them both in individually and let them know that you suspect that one is clocking in for the other and that you will be watching this very closely …….including pulling video. Let them know that the consequences are termination. Involve HR in the discussion. If not, that will be the first place they go after they leave your office. Coving this base will leave them nowhere to go. That will put a stop to it. The guy that is on-time won’t want to lose his job for the loser that is late……………

    #203445 Reply

    @mdartagnan This isn’t about getting them to stop. This is about getting people out of the company that should not have been there to begin with.

    Take this quote from Jim Collins which everbody seems to conveniently forget the second half “Get the right people on the bus, the wrong people off the bus, and the right people in the right seats.” these are people you need off the bus and if you have to worry about HR trying to save them then they need to get off the buss as well.

    It is about integrity and acountability and by the way that is what old fashioned management is.

    Just my opinion.

    #203451 Reply

    Reputation - 51
    Rank - Aluminum

    @Mike-Carnell I understand that and agree more that you know, but in today’s world of ambulance chasers and employees looking to strike it rich from employer misfortune, you have to have your ducks in a row. Having been in EEOC hearings and employee civil suits, I would hate to terminate based on statistics. If you can’t terminate you have to stop it. HR is there to protect the organization from these risks and it isn’t likely that they will just get off the bus. As much as we would like to be in a world void of these risks ……..that is just the reality of where we are at this point in time. But I agree, they need to be kicked off of the bus. Needs and reality sometimes don’t always meet.
    There are some biometric clocks that read an employees hand-print. That makes it impossible to clock in for someone else unless they cut off their hand and give it to you.

    #203455 Reply

    @mdartagnan You are half right. There are a lot of ambulance chasers and people who want to strike it rich. Part of the reason we are in that condition is because our HR departments don’t do sh*t. They don’t understand the laws that were put in place but when you consider the complexity of the mix of city, county, state and federal laws it isn’t easy.

    When you take the easy way out and negotiate and do that weak hearted stuff you put up earlier then people will push the boundries. I have has people charge me (my company) with repetitive motion carpal tunnel syndrome after they worked for me for 3 days and another one for 11 days. The disgusting part is that they had some bleeding heart that felt they needed a hearing even though it was medically impossible. The cheap way out would have been to pay them. But when you show up at every hearing and you bring an attorney eventually those bottom feeders go somewhere else. Unfortunatly thos lessons have a half life so every few years you have to do it again.

    I will keep kicking them off the bus, doing what I believe is right and trusting the US jurisprudence system to back me up when someone actually wants to see who blinks first. It has never let me down in terms of coming up with a just decision.

    By the way statistics has been repeated ly to prove discrimination.

    Some of this is just my opinion.

    #203457 Reply

    Reputation - 51
    Rank - Aluminum

    @Mike-Carnell This is why I personally look each person that joins my team in the eye. I don’t let that kind of person on my bus!! But unfortunately you inherit some of these types sometimes.

    #203461 Reply

    @mdartagnan Whether you inherit them or you just hire the wrong person it is import for a company make it clear that they don’t tolerate this type of behavior. Much to the chagrin of my CPA I have made it clear I will gladly pay my attorney $10,000 before i will pay one of these ambulance chasers or extortionist $1. There is never an acceptable price tag to integrity or accountability. once you let actuarials determine the price of you value system then you get what we have.

    This isn’t new. It is item number 7 on Deming’s list of 7 Deadly Diseases so we have been dealing with this for a while. If more people were doing what I am doing and if the Bar Asociation took responsibility for the way their members conducted business and if we had people in goverment making decisions based on right and wrong instead of what gets them elected then this would have been over a long time ago.

    Just my opinion.

    #203471 Reply

    Reputation - 51
    Rank - Aluminum

    You have good opinions………….

    #203775 Reply


    Let me give you a simple way to catch hold of the thief. Have attendance register temporarily with shift manager, ask all employees to sign the register (in time and out time). If the same person signs for two members he can be caught hold by shift manager.

    Let me know if this works for you.

    #203811 Reply

    @mdartagnan Thank you. I am not sure how good they are. I bought a factory a little over 6 years ago. Two reasons 1. After a decade+ of consulting you begin to question how much you really know so you have to put your own money on the table 2. you get tired of a lot of middle management dismissing you because you don’y understand business – even though they have never owned a business be it consulting or manufacturing.

    The thing you learn as a small business manufacturer is how vulnerable this businesses are to the business environment. Some POS ambulance chaser doesn’t go after a Fotune 50 company because it is to much work. They think the small companies are just slot machines and they just keep banging away. After a while you have to ask yourself after why you worked so hard to survive the recession and all the cockroaches are still here.

    I could be a bit jaded on this but it is still my opinion.

    #203813 Reply

    @slnkumar That is a solution. Lets add a log. NVA work always makes life easier.

    #203991 Reply

    Good news. HR informs me that they had some additional info and proof so one of the people have been fired already and the other is on the way out.

    #203995 Reply

    @Darth The symptom is gone and/or going but the system that allowed it is still in tact. That would be a big job for HR to fire the offenders and fix the system. Are you going to let them off the hook that easy?

    #204131 Reply

    @Mike-Carnell Unfortunately, they have much bigger fish to fry than one or two people doing a fake clock-in. Funny thing was that they had a camera on the area but it slipped and only showed people from the knees down :-). There was some computer trail that was used to capture them. As a number of folks said above, ya gotta keep’em from gett’in on the bus in the first place.

    #204363 Reply

    @Darth we went through the same issue on a site once where there was a turnstile for entrance and people were “piggybacking” (two people in the turnstile at the same time and there was a card left just inside the gate so anyone who forgot their ID just use it to get in (Almost 200 entries under 1 name in 1 day). Nobody watched the tapes – it was clearly on tape. None of this stuff means anything unless someone looks at it.

    The very least HR should do is figure out who should have been reviewing the tapes. there is more of an issue here than just the people logging in for each other.

    Just my opinion.

    #204445 Reply

    @Darth – Back to your original question from August 23rd, (what statistiocal method could be utilized to help HR) ….

    It would appear that what changed was the difference between clock-in or clock-out times for these two individuals. You could have done a control chart on the difference and set it to show two phases (one for before and one for after the initiation of the “behavior”). The difference in the centerline and control limits between the 2 phases would have been significant.

    Another option would have been to do a test of means (or medians) on the time differences for the two phases. On the chance that the means/medians did not differ greatly because of the centering near zero (sometimes person 1 would clock in/out first and sometimes it would be person 2 resulting in some positive and some negative differences), you could do a test of equal variance on the phase 1 and 2 time differences.

    Any of these methods should have shown an evident difference. It won’t help in this case since the issue has already been dispatched, but the approach might be helpful in analogous circumstances.

    #204455 Reply

    Mike K.

    Well, you know – maybe they are carpooling and are actually coming and leaving together these days?
    Always leave room for “another reasonable explanation”.

    If you really suspect something is going on:
    One way would be to call an emergency meeting 2 minutes after “they” clocked in and ask where the missing person is.
    Then, ring a phone call to the missing person and give them 5 minutes to show up, because they must be in the building.

    You could also just install a surveillance camera and see on video if the timestamps of the two people clocking coincide with one or two different people on camera.

    If this is fraud, then not only one guy is committing fraud: The one clocking in for the other is an active participant as well.
    As such, it’s not about finding out who is the missing guy – both need at least a serious shot across the bows.


    #204479 Reply

    @mike K Clever solutions. Isn’t it a legitimate concern if you have to resort to those measures that they shouldn’t be employees to begin with. How do you execute things like LSS, TPM, etc if you can’t trust your employees to come to work and clock in?

    Just my opinion.

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