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Consulting Rates for BB and MBB

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Viewing 19 posts - 1 through 19 (of 19 total)
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  • #28953

    Ropp
    Participant

    What are reasonable hourly rates to pay a black belt and/or master black belt?  Obviously, it would depend on the experience of the consultant.  I’m looking for a range.

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    #73003

    Adam L Bowden
    Participant

    At the top end individuals/companies are charging $2000 to $3000 a day + expenses.
    Adam

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    #73014

    Hugh Jass
    Participant

    As an experieinced BB, I know what I am worth and don’t settle for less.  Depending on the length of contract, I get between $3,000 and $4,000 per day (taxes paid / grossed up).  If the assigment is for 1 month or more, I require a paid 1 year vehicle lease up to vehicle price of 40k.  These rates are plus expenses with a daily cap of $500 unless there are escorts involved, then the cap goes to $1500.  Hope this answers your question

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    #73042

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Dave,
    I have opened and closed this question several times because I really get tired of hearing people discuss how consultants are over paid. It is like anything else you get paid what the market value is. Most of these people really wouldn’t want someone examining their ROI based on their salary. Just remember you need to evaluate this the way you would any other business deal. – Return on Investment (ROI). Your company already has a Payback period threashold it sets for Investments. Get them to understand this is not an expense – as the accountants will classify it. It is an investment in the work force, their future and their bonus. Motorola has some interesting numbers around the ROI they get on their training dollar.
    Scare the crap out of your HR department. Runn training with its own P&L. All that esoteric crap you get when they get in the picture would cease and the focus would shift to results – where it should be (not on the number of font sizes in your material – that is a real conversation I had).
    First I wouldn’t hire a BB consultant for any other reason than to work a project. It would make more sense to just hire them. If your intention is training with projects you have to understand you are not after a MBB. When we hire MBB’s (as consultants) they have to be able to deliver at a level that is “the MBB to the MBB candidates”. I listened to a VC make a remark one day that MBB’s were a dime a dozen. I don’t agree with that under any circumstance particularly with a long term successful consultant. The Consultant level guys like Ray Everhart and Linus Kelly will leave most MBB’s in the dust. It is a whole different level. They have to be stand alone people because you don’t send them out in teams. The old Texas Ranger thing “One riot, one Ranger.” They don’t go into a place where they have to understand the business or they are a SME’s. They don’t ask for a couple days delay so they can log on somewhere and ask for case studies. They don’t need them. They understand the process. They break their own barriers and they make things happen.
    These people will go for a minimum of $2500/day + expenses (Bad economy). In a normal market they go for $3500 – $4000/day + expenses. If you get some one deploying for less than $2k/day they are either unproven, don’t know their market value (in which case this is who you ask for advice?), or they are some existentialist working off some really bad karma. 
    There are locations in this world that have a reputation for not paying their bills. It is like some badge of honor to either stiff you or delay payment as long as they can. In these locations I charge $6500/day + expenses (the daily rate and airfare are in advance these days). I sat on a $1,000,000 Account Recievable for about 12 months because of this type of mentality. Then they wonder why the Good consultants won’t work there?
    Japan is even more intersting. Typically when you finish a week of training they expect to be billed before you leave – a refreashing experience.
    If you want to separate the men from the boys (a cliche – I am not trying to offend any women; the term men and boys is gender neutral in this case) you can find the consultants who will deploy for free. You pay expenses only. In 12 months they take a percentage of the savings. This is where you find out who believes in their product. You will hit some of the consulting companies that will snivel and give you all kinds of excuses about “Business” or “accounting” reasons that it isn’t feasable (typically it will be we have to take some kind of reserve). The bottom line is they don’t believe in their product or their consultants enough to get in the boat with you. If they don’t believe why should you?
    The range is $0 – $50,000. We all know who the $50k is and just like anything elsev – it should be put to the ROI test. The market isn’t much different than any other maket. You will get what you pay for.
    Good luck.

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    #73048

    MN
    Participant

    Hi,you are really adding value to this forum,I would recommend the management of this ‘forum’to consider you as “benchmarking champion”,I hope other consultants would do  the same,I found many of your comments valuable  and have typed tthem.best regards.MN

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    #73052

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    MN,
    Thankyou. I appreciate the compliment.
    I’m just having fun. Someone made that suggestion in an earlier question- just have fun. This has been fun since about 83.
    Thanks again.

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    #73085

    David S. Schwarz
    Participant

    I’d like to weigh in on this discussion. I am not a BB or an MBB but I am a statistical consultant with 30 years experience and proper credentials.
    The consulting fees you quote are quite high and a little hard to believe. Most BB’s and MBB’s do not have the full complement of statistical training necessary; in my opinion. With that in mind, they should be charging rates about half what you have quoted.
    Statistcal consultants such as myself and others do not see fees in that range unless we are at the top of our profession with an international reputation.
    Just my 2cents worth.
    Dave

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    #73090

    vin
    Member

    David,
    With all due respect, I think Six Sigma focuses on applied statistics, problem solving, and business process improvement and not necessarily statisitics.  Although the proper use of statistical tools is a cornerstone of the Six Sigma methodology, it does not, in and of itself, accurately and completely define what Black Belts and Master Black Belts bring to the table.  Perhaps the comparison you made was not apples to apples…

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    #73116

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    David,
    I appreciate your feedback but I believe, as Vin said, You are confused. I am not a statistician and do not profess to be. Your rates and criteria don’t apply to me or this industry. The rates are a matter of record.
    I have no intention of getting into any type of contest with you over right and wrong of the rates. The market sets the rate.
    If you read my response you will see it is based on business decisions using ROI. If you offer a fair return on investment the rate isn’t the issue. Results are.

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    #73155

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    I thought about this for a while yesterday and decided I needed to respond one more time. In your parlance: Null Hypothesis MBB=Statistician. We are rejecting the null hypothesis in this case.
    First. I owned a ski shop once. I skiied withseveral people who had skiied for 20-30 years. It didn’t make them good skiers. If you don’t get the relevance write me back.
    Good credentials is subjective. You might want to check and see if you measurement system correlates to your customers. If it does then it might be your customers are different than ours.
    You don’t understand the basic assumptions therefor you don’t arrive at the correct conclusions. Maybe, just maybe, this is why the business world is placing a higher dollar value on SS types than the pure statistician.

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    #73156

    Kelly Maidman
    Participant

    David,
    I have to agree with Mike and Vin.   We bring other skills to the table, which include: The management of change, teaming, mentorship, the occasional “Jedi Mind-trick” and of course data-driven process improvements.    Sure we use statistical analysis, but our role is much more people-oriented than that of say, a “John Nash” individual contributor-type.   This may be an apples/oranges issue.
    -Kelly

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    #73157

    David S. Schwarz
    Participant

    When I replied to your initial post, I knew my comments would stir some controversy. However, I did not expect the insults and bad manners typical of your last reply.
    Please remove me from you “discussion”.

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    #73163

    vin
    Member

    David – My interpretation of your original post is as follows:
    1) Six Sigma professionals/consultants are overpaid.
    2) Six Sigma professionals/consultants are barely competent when it comes to the use of statistical tools for data analysis.
    3) The Six Sigma consultants that responded with their per diem rates are probably lying.
    That is my interpretation of what you originally wrote, and I imagine our colleagues that responded had a similar interpretation.  That said, I think you should have expected more than just a little controversy.  If my interpretation is wrong, please feel free to clarify/correct me.
    Regardless, personally I would prefer that someone like yourself stays involved in this discussion forum.  You can add diversity to the discussion and provide a different perspective.  Although your opinions may be met with some resistance, they can also act as catalysts for fruitful exchanges of ideas.

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    #73164

    Apu Ali Muhhamad
    Participant

    As they same in my home country “If you can’t stand the bouncing, stay off the camel”
    Kindest regards,
    Apu Muhhamad

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    #73171

    Kelly Maidman
    Participant

       The bane of internet posting…Misunderstood commentatries.
    My “John Nash” comment was not meant as an insult.   Having recently seen “A Beautiful Mind”, it was apparent that “JN” was in Individual Contributor concerning his lucid mathematical moments.   I was trying to paint a picture of apples vs. oranges (in this case: Statisticians vs. MBB’s/BB’s).   More often than not, we mentor and nurture GB’s and teams.
       In a previous role, I was part of an interview panel to fill a BB position.   One of the candidates was a “Stats Guru”, in fact an Adjunct Professor at our local University.   It was immediately apparent that he was bright…a genius in fact.   
       The Problem?   He was a “wet fish”, no social skills, and comfortably arrogant with his stated “sole reliance on intellect and thought” to help him improve processes and influence change.   Needless to say, the panel passed on him.
    Robust knowledge of statistics is great, but let’s not forget the human element.   Again, this dialogue is about Apples and Oranges.
    I’m in agreement with Vin, We’d like you to stay and continue the dialogue.
    -Kelly

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    #73173

    Cone
    Participant

    Dave,
    I will weigh with Mr. Carnell on this one. Let’s compare business results and see who should get paid most.
    A good MBB is about results and the market rate for a good one is $2500 – $5000 /day + expenses. I. too, would prefer a piece of the action vs. a daily rate. Compensation there can be an order of magnitude higher.
    The real trick is figuring out who the good ones are. There are hundreds, maybe thousands, claiming the title and I know only a few dozen really good ones. I know less than a handful that also claim to be statisticians.

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    #73299

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    David,
    I am really sorry if I hurt your feelings. You might want to get a little thicker skinned if you choose to be a BB. It is not academia. Now I will take a chance on getting crossed up with the women in the group. I was with some VC types in NY one night and they were trying to figure this out. One guy who had been with us ina factory called it a “male Macho Manufacturing thing.” Not close to accurate but if you get the sniffels when some body comes with the arrogance you did then I’m going with Ali. Stay off the camel.
    I guess it is easier to get your feelings hurt and say you do not want to play anymore than to really get introspective.
    There are some good statisticians out there but they never really worried about my daily rate or their feeling. If you have ever met Jeff Heslop from GE Air Craft Engines, this is a benchmark statistician.

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    #178435

    gutierrez
    Participant

    What would be the going rate per day in 08/09?

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    #178458

    GB
    Participant

    US$3K/Day plus exp. is what I charge.

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Viewing 19 posts - 1 through 19 (of 19 total)

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