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Difference Between LEAN vs. Six Sigma

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Viewing 47 posts - 101 through 147 (of 147 total)
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  • #143205

    EdG
    Participant

    Cool.  And the folks I work with thought I was nutz…  Although I am reading an english translation.

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    #143206

    Deming Student
    Participant

    Lean has to do with removing “waste” in the System. That promotes speed and cost savings.  Six Sigma deals with reducing variation and improving quality in the process and product.  They are meant to work together.  An experienced, trained Lean Sigma MBB would better understand when and how to apply each.

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    #143210

    Hans
    Participant

    Duly noted and filed for future reference :-).

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    #143211

    Six Sigma Tom
    Member

    It looks like I’m entering this thread late, to say the least. But here’s how I see it. There have been three HUGE initiatives in the past 30 years or so: quality/TQM, Six Sigma, and Lean. All three started long before they became popular (Post WWII.) I believe all are related and fall under the umbrella of systems and industrial engineering.
    As I see it, the essence of each approach is as follows:
    QUALITY is doing the right things right. This means that (1) you’ve identified what the right things are, perhaps by studying the VOC, and (2) you have systems in place to assure that they are done right and to take appropriate action when they are not. Quality implies that you’re not doing the wrong things, i.e., things that the customer does not want.
    Six Sigma focuses on modeling complex business processes and using the models to improve performance rapidly. A model is an explicit, logical linkage of outcomes to root causes. Many, but not all, Six Sigma models are mathematical. If the linkage between causes and outcomes is already known, there is no need for Six Sigma. As always, all models are wrong, but some models are useful. Six Sigma goes somewhat beyond SIE because using the models to improve requires a significant management component. Since many of the improvements involve customers, Six Sigma and Quality are linked.
    Lean systematically identifies and eliminates waste in value streams. This requires that you know what the organization’s value streams are and can identify waste defined as non-value added activities. Since value is defined by customers, Lean is linked to Quality. In many cases Lean can be applied without Six Sigma because the linkage between the waste and its causes is well understood. However, when the root cause of waste isn’t known, Six Sigma provides important tools and techniques for modeling it. Thus, Lean is linked to Six Sigma as well.
    In summary:
    Quality is working better.
    Lean is working efficiently.
    Six Sigma is working smarter.

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    #143212

    Hans
    Participant

    Oops the previous note was targeted towards the Deming Student.

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    #143218

    SixSigmaGuy
    Participant

    Your email made my day! :-)  I think you’ve right on with your reasoning.

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    #143269

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    My lean and six sigma DMAIC chart.

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    #149905

    Roland Elsekup
    Member

    This is a great posting and response. Very proactive. I am in Healthcare and I am looking into Lean or SS. After reading this, I think I will do both.
    Thanks

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    #149906

    Roland Elsekup
    Member

    Peter,
    Thank you, Thank you!!
    I am in the middle of decision making right now to take lean or SS. Big bucks involved. I am in Healthcare, Project management, no PMP yet. Want to try LEAN. Thanks for your posting

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    #149909

    howe
    Participant

    TQM / Deming incorporates both Lean and SS but without all the BS.

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    #149910

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    Lean Operating Concepts  were  developed  by the  Japanese (TPS),and  later  in  the  USA as  “Lean”.It  was  based  on  the works of  Taichi Ohno,Taguchi,Shigeo Shingo,Deming,Juran and  others.Lean  and  SS have  many common sources with  modern Lean  approaches.
    Good  Luck 

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    #149916

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    BS stands  for  what?

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    #149919

    Six Sigma Shooter
    Member

    Bovine excrement

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    #149920

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    What  does  that  mean?

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    #149922

    Six Sigma Shooter
    Member

    There is a handy little tool called the English language dictionary.  First, look up the word “bovine.”  Then, look up the word “excrement.”  A black belt should be able to 1) do the research on their own and, 2) figure it out for themselves.

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    #149928

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    Thank You  for  being  cooperative?My  next question:Please  clarify  the  difference  between Leading  Measure and  Lagging  Measure?

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    #149933

    qualitycolorado
    Participant

    Marlon,
     
    Regarding Leading indicators vs. lagging indicators — here are some recent iSixSigma discussion board postings about this topic:
    https://www.isixsigma.com/forum/showmessage.asp?messageID=107993
    https://www.isixsigma.com/forum/showmessage.asp?messageID=107995
     
    Best regards.
    QualityColorado
     

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    #149949

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    Thank You.Appreciate  your cooperation.

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    #150429

    Richard Finn
    Member

    Any chance of getting this article of Lean vs Sigma vs TOC. I’d
    very much appreciate it.Thanks,Richard

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    #150432

    Six Sigma Shooter
    Member
    #152416

    jsmercedes
    Participant

    Hi Erik, regarding your concerns of what is a better approach, which tool to use and benefits regarding lean or Six sigma implementations I’d probably say in agreement with other lean consultants that both work well together and each one compliments the other. I see Lean as a conglomerate of useful tools that help you evidence muda in you supply chain and with the use of other tools like Six Sigma you can isolate and reduce variation needs that you identified lean wise. You need both to get the most benefits out of the initiative but if you’d have to pick one because of cost restraints, Go Lean!
     
    Leansite Advise Panel
    http://www.leansite.net

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    #152426

    Dr Peter Smith
    Participant

    Why not simply follow Deming, as highly successful companies such as Toyota do ? 
    Deming’s principles combine Lean and Six Sigma … but without all of Six Sigma’s fallacies and nonsence that were added by Mikel Harry.

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    #152433

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    Rev. Falwell sure doesn’t need our help in building an efficient and profitable money machine.  Many of us just keep praying that the LSS phenomenon will continue until the End of Days or retirement which ever comes first. 

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    #152429

    3rd generation SS
    Participant

    Dr. Smith,
    You’ll like this in terms of Dr. Harry being the “grandfather” of Six Sigma. The newest pitch is as follows: We are now living in the 3rd generation of Six Sigma: Generation one was all about defect reduction, generation two was about “cost savings” and generation three is now about “value creation” (Dr. Harry says that this is also called “Lean Six Sigma :-).. You’ll probably be familiar with Dr. Harry’s now infamous web site and his 20 or so philosophical statements about six sigma. The logical consequence of Dr. Harry’s fundamental contribution to  human progression to perfection is that six sigma will find its end-state in a full-blown eshatology … there are already web sites out there that demonstrate how six sigma can be used to improve the strength of your faith (these poor chaps are still part of generation one six sigima, wait until they catch up with generation three six sigma. And can you imagine the kind of defect free, waste free and value added mega churches that the generation four six sigma will create …).

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    #152432

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    OK Doc, please expound upon the Deming methodology and structured approach to improving an organization and it’s processes.  Besides the platitudes and generalities of the 14 Points, PDCA and other Deming pronouncements please describe exactly what an organization should do to “follow Deming”.  Thanks.  Reminds me of what my grandfather used to say to my Dad, “Stop losing money!!!” to which Dad replied, “How?” to which Pop said, “That’s for you to figure out.”   Gee, with all the attention Deming got in the 80’s shouldn’t somebody have figured out what “follow Deming” means?  Sure there is a lot of crap surrounding LSS but then again, there is alot of structure and format as well.  If you continue to read some of the really stupid posts that show up on this site, you will easily conclude that it isn’t the LSS methodology that fails an organization, it is the idiots and hacks failing to properly apply and deploy the methodology.

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    #152435

    Dr. Evil
    Participant

    … and what would that “properly (…) deploy the methodology” be, Dr.Darth? … the prescriptions by Snee, Hoerl, Harry, Eckes, Bleyfoegel, Pydzek or any of the now myriad of consulting firms out there? … not that I disagree with you on the fact that Six Sigma added the deployment dimension, but that was s.th. that interestingly only surfaced after Quality “failed” when it was re-introduced to the US in the 1980s. The Japanese are still quite happy with their now outdated quality circles as are the Germans. Maybe it’s a little more complicated than the application of a simplistic psychological attribution theory that assumes that a “foolproof” blueprint of six sigma deployment has not been understood and therefore not been properly implemented by people with an IQ of less than 60. …

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    #152437

    IQ
    Participant

    Perhaps one of the reasons for six sigma failures is that 50% of the people deploying it are below average intelligence.
    If this upsets you, it’s a sign you are one of them.

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    #152449

    SS
    Member

    IQ: Huh otherwise you are defying the law of average!
    Good observation IQ !
     

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    #152454

    Hiro
    Participant

    Six Sigma seems to put management at the top of a pyramid.
    Toyota Lean is the reverse it puts workers at the top of the pyramid.
    I don’t know what USA Lean teaches – you’ll have to find out for yourself.
    When some arrogant, ignorant people read my post they will become very rude, particularly that guy in India, so to save you some effort and confusion, I’ll give you a quote.
    “Kitano said that management should not be at the top of the proverbial pyramid. Rather, he suggested that the pyramid be turned upside down so that the managers – himself included – serve as a support for the workers.”
    All you need to do now is to find out who is Kitano :-)
    Good luck!

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    #152455

    Whitehurst
    Participant

    Though people will disagree I think both are same there might difference in philosophies, tools , process improment, variation reduction but both are same essence ” a methodology to solve a problem or methadology to reduce variation or many more definitions”
    They are both are organized common sense but unfortunately common sense is not so common.
    regards
    joe

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    #152457

    GrayR
    Participant

    If you really don’t understand it then you probably don’t know enough to comment on it.  Lean is a name that Womack put on the Toyota Production System (TPS) – TPS is heavily based on PDCA . . .
    If you have any interest in really understanding lean, read Pascal Dennis’ (former manager at Toyota) Getting the Right Things Done  on the use of PDCA in the planning cycles at Toyota — and how the PDCA follows into the work areas.  His book does a pretty good job at laying it out, esp. concerning your questions on what to do–  http://www.lean.org/Bookstore/ProductDetails.cfm?SelectedProductID=156  “
    Or Steven Spears HBR papers (e.g., Learning to Lead at Toyota or, Decoding the DNA . . ) provides much better information on TPS than most of the early Womack stuff:  http://harvardbusinessonline.hbsp.harvard.edu/hbrsa/en/search/saSearchResults.jhtml;jsessionid=E2HUKJSC00NKMAKRGWDR5VQBKE0YIISW?Ntt=spears&N=0&Ntk=hbrsa&Ntx=mode%2Bmatchallpartial&x=16&y=5
    Shingeo Shingo, who worked on the development of TPS, provided his two cents on PDCA many years ago in his book on Continuous Improvement (Non-Stock Production)– although he provides his comments on why PDCA needed further development — “As Deming’s plan-do-check cycle demonstrates, the control function of management is missing in Western Management philosophies.  Management functions must encompass plan, control, and check; the do function lies beyond the control function, and it is precisely in this process of control and do that many production problems arise.  The lack of awareness of the control function is a major defect in production management in Europe and the United States.”
    You probably are right about “the idiots and hacks failing to properly apply and deploy the methodology” though.

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    #155019

    Ken Stone
    Participant

    Simply put.  Lean is a method / system for removing slop/waste from  processes and optimizing material flow. Implementations are usually organized around product families.  During a Lean implementation, focused opportunities to improve work elements are identified (i.e., set-up time reduction). Six Sigma provides the tools to quantify and direct focused improvements.  Does it get any simpler than that?
    Ken Stone
    303-953-2862

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    #155024

    Torrance
    Participant

    Dont like the mail header (Lean vs. Six Sigma)- it’s like Lean and Six Sigma are enemies or rivals.
    They’re not – they compliment each other – as long as you are able to cut through all the nonsense of trying to distinguish between them……
    many debate whether a certain tool is Six Sigma or whether it is Lean or whether it is TQM.
    Who cares? Does the tool/method make a difference? – if it does – we should use it without trying to categorise it.
    Let’s Change the title:
    Six Sigma / Lean / TQM Allstars vs Customer dis-satisfaction
    Only an opinion!
    Davy T

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    #155699

    vidya Kulkarni
    Member

    Dear All,
    can anyone clarify me the difference between VSM & lean
     

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    #155703

    G
    Member

    Lean is the Concept of Everything less i.e, Less inventory,Less Process time,Less Resources,Less WIP etc.
    Different type of tools are being used for achieving this.
    Some of them are SMED(Single minute exchange of dies) for less process time,Puke-yuke to less defects,etc.
    But VSM(value stream mapping) is for less Inventory & Process time which is a part of Lean.
    With Thanks
    Santosh

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    #155710

    Wayne Marhelski
    Member

    Lean isn’t about having “less” of everything. It is about removing waste. Having less inventory just for the sake of having less inventory, may not satisfy the customer’s needs and therefore solves nothing.
    Value Stream Mapping is the technique to identify areas of waste in your current state and to help in the conception of a future state map. Again, it used to identify areas that really matter and to focus on them.
    The concept of lean being a toolbox where we can reach in and pull something out when needed is the wrong approach in my opinion. These methods work together in synergy. Toyota didn’t get where they were today by only using some of them. These were methods they used to manage their business on a daily basis.
    Wayne Marhelski

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    #155979

    Vikas M
    Member

    Hi Vidhya,
    Lean helps you cut waste and six sigma helps your cut variation….Vikas

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    #156027

    Beatriz Martini
    Participant

    love it, such a shame that BS was not understood, what a waste, glad
    you think that TQM/Deming had it in one, i see the other two systems
    6S and LE as an extension or rather a reduction and segmentation of
    what was achieved in the 50’s. nice to see what are moving forward!!
    NOT

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    #156041

    Dan Chauncey
    Participant

    And I might add with a lot less rigor and practical direction. TQM was big on philosophy and short on “how to”

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    #158906

    Fontanilla
    Participant

    Sounds like you have some Shingijutsu background….

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    #174536

    Ben Mallon
    Participant

    I found a book- The Complete Idiots Guide to Lean Six Sigma (found used on ebay for about $13 plus shipping).  It says, paraphrased, that lean is about reducing waste and six sigma is about reducing variation.  The authors say they complement one another and overlap- if you do one, to some degree you influence the other in the good direction.  Wish I could do more than quote a book, but I’m new at this and don’t have much training. 
    I am (trying to) do both at an aircraft maintenance base.  I guess we are categorized as low flow (average 14 days turnaround) and high mix (every aircraft comes in a little or a lot different from the others).  If anyone has input regarding the first stages of implementation (how-to) in this environment, I’d sure like to hear it.
    Thanks everyone for the posts, you have helped me understand this better.  Have a great day.

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    #174552

    Stevo
    Member

    Once again, I have no real insight.
     
    However, you have to respect a post with legs.  The longevity is impressive.  Posts from 2002, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08.
     
    Stevo

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    #174553

    Brandon
    Participant

    Agreed – especially when the title of the post is a grammarical nightmare.

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    #174554

    Stevo
    Member

    Not only longevity, but a who’s who of posters:
     

    Marlon Brando
    Six Sigma Shooter
    QualityColorado
    Stevo
    Mike Carnell
    Dog Sxxt
    Stan
    Andy U
    mikel harry
    gomezadams
    Darth
    EdG
    Paul Gibbons
    Brit
     
    Stevo

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    #174555

    Taylor
    Participant

    No Kidding, the one surprising guy that didn’t post was Billy Bob.
    Anyone heard from that redneck lately?
     

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    #174556

    Brandon
    Participant

    I think I may know what happened to him…..
    A few years ago the DOT experimented with Black Boxes (similar to Flight Recorders) in 3/4 ton, 4 wheel drive pickup trucks. They then studied fatal crashes. In over 80% of the fatal crashes the final words of the driver were “Oh SHXX!”
    Except in parts of Texas, Mississippi, Alabama & Kentucky. There in over 55% of the fatal crashes the driver’s last words were “Hold my beer & watch this!”
    Rest in peace….Billy Bob.

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    #178124

    Jaspreet
    Participant

    Hi Erik,
    Read the details that you have provided…I am planning to do a project. However, unable to understand what factors decide whether the project is a Lean project or a SS project.
    Please guide if there is some study material on it or you can explain it in a layman’s language.
    Thanks in advance.
    Regards,
    Jaspreet

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