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differences between TQM SS

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  • #48759

    Van Kim Ban
    Member

    What  are  the  main  differences  between  TQM nad  Six  Sigma? 

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    #165290

    Adam L Bowden
    Participant

    Simplistically …TQM – 7 basic tools deployed via mass inoculationSix Sigma – at the Green Belt level it’s similar but project and results
    focussedAdam

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    #165291

    Van Kim Ban
    Member

    Thank You
    Is  that  all??

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    #165296

    Adam L Bowden
    Participant

    There is a lot of info on this topic on this site and on the internet.Do you want everything handed to you on a plate ?

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    #165297

    Van Kim Ban
    Member

    Thank You

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    #165387

    Van Kim Ban
    Member

    But  I  believe another  advanced  quality  tools may be  used at  the  GB level

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    #165388

    Adam L Bowden
    Participant

    I totally agree.
    Based upon the need and intellectual capacity I’ve taught GB’s Gauge
    R&R, ANOVA, DOE etc etc as tools that will assist them in resolving
    their project needs.
    The typical GB training course is the foundation upon which other
    tools can be leveraged.regards,Adam

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    #165389

    Adam L Bowden
    Participant

    Then we get into the amusing discussion of Belt colours. I want to see
    the BS “gold belt” discussion etc back – that was interesting :^)Adam

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    #165394

    Sam and Ella
    Member

    TQM was an idea that quality is worth making an effort to achieve.  It was packaged and sold by consultants as “training” to company managers having more money than brains during the 1980’s. 
    After all the juice had been squeezed out of that melon, they repackaged the same devices, added steps, and marketed it all over again to the same idiots – this time calling it “Six Sigma.” 
    If you have reasonably intelligent people who have ever solved a problem in their lives, you would do well just ask them to fix the problem(s) and steer clear of “consultants” and whatever “Magic Elixir” they happen to be pitching from the backs of wagons in the middle of your town. 

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    #165395

    GB
    Participant

    You are so far from correct, it is comical…
    Sounds like you had a bad experience…Care to elaborate?

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    #165397

    BritW
    Participant

    Must have been ransacked by a consultant.  Six Sigma and TQM are very different – my guess is you haven’t used both.

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    #165396

    Brandon
    Participant

    Wow Sam and Ella (is this one person with multiple personalities or what?)…what a breakthrough. Just sit in a quiet corner and think..you’ll come up with solutions to all the world’s problems.
    Who needs data, analysis tools and rigorous, methodical approaches to identify, fix and put controls in place?
    Damn, why didn’t I think of that?
    I probably didn’t even need to spend all that time in college getting a BS and a Master’s degree. I could have just figured it out myself?

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    #165398

    Stevo
    Member

    Not that I care about this thread but something you said caught my eye, and I’m probably taking it out of context.
     
    “I probably didn’t even need to spend all that time in college getting a BS and a Master’s degree. I could have just figured it out myself?”
    I find a BS and a Master’s degree a poor prediction of analytical skill.  I am not anti schooling, but what I learned in college has not helped me much in my problem solving skills.
     
    Stevo
     
    BTW – Did you see that someone else posted as Stevo the other day?  Do you think it is a coincidence or do you think I have a stalker?

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    #165399

    Ron
    Member

    This questions comes up to often so their must be someone out there that still uses the term TQM.
    Simply put TQM was a poorly conceived attempt to ifuse a quality consciuosness into existing companies. It was poorly concevied, tool poor, and it had a catchy title so those out there that liketo say the words but do nothing jumped on the TQM bandwagon.
    Six Sigma methodology has stood the test of time as it was an enhancement to the the scientific methodology used in technical circles for years. It was given a fresh set of paint, updated toolkits, and what really sets it apart from all other approaches is that is focuses improvment activities on data drived issues and concerns.
     
    Six Sigma is  a methodology – TQM was a buzz word of the day and do to it’s poor result gave a springboard toSix Sigma to comapre it’s success to the poor results of TQM.

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    #165402

    GB
    Participant

    I thought i recognized “Sam’s” anger towards TQM.
    Ron, are you posting under multiple names?   It sounds like you got burned by a bad TQM consultant.
    I’ve experienced TQM at several F5’s and for it’s time, it worked well and set the stage for added statistical rigor down the road.   The key concepts of TQ still ring true.   Quality is worth investing n and variation is the devil.   Teams generally come up with better solutions than individuals and data is an integral part of problem solving.
    You should look up an old B&W training film on the subject.   It was titled, “Right, the first time” and is from the 1950’s…You’ll see similarities to TQ, 6S, Lean, ToC, Va/NVa and the PAIcEc model.

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    #165403

    Brandon
    Participant

    Stevo – I saw that posting and even responded with an I’m glad you’re back. – wasn’t you, huh? Maybe he’s off my back for a while and hassling you.
    Re: Post – wasn’t saying my base education provided all the skills necessary to accomplish what I have. Just making fun of Sam and Ella proposing one doesn’t need to learn anything – just sit and think and a solution will come forth.

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    #165405

    Stevo
    Member

    That’s what I thought, but there has been a bad trend of people signing with their PhDs thinking that it adds weight to their opinion.
     
    BTW (1) Sitting waiting for an epiphany worked for Newton.
     
    BTW (2) Sitting around doing nothing and waiting for a perceived problem to go away has worked for me many times, is that the same?
     
    Hope all is and stays well,
     
    Stevo
     

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    #165411

    Ron
    Member

    No I never do that!

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    #165412

    Dr. Scott
    Participant

    Stevo,
     
    I hope this is you, the real Stevo.
     
    BTW (1) Newton wasn’t sitting around waiting for an epiphany to solve a problem. He was just sitting around. Then a problem fell on his head (an apple so the legend goes). Then he went on to use the science of his time to solve the problem of why an apple fell on his head. In that, he proved the existence of gravity (along with others during the same period). That was the true epiphany.
     
    BTW (2) “Sitting around doing nothing and waiting for a perceived problem to go away has worked for me many times, is that the same?” No, not really. I have seen this happen when new management enters the picture and they don’t see the “perceived problem” to be a problem. So then it goes away. That is why I like good data so much. Even the new manager will find it difficult to ignore the facts, or the data that a problem does indeed exist.
     
    As far as “people signing with their PhDs thinking that it adds weight to their opinion” goes, I hope you weren’t referring to me (though I suspect I am one of those you refer to). My nickname here is Dr. Scott, because I do have a PhD. But that doesn’t mean that people should listen to me any more than another. That would be like giving more respect to a General regarding a combat issue, when s/he has never been in combat. I have been in “combat”, and I deserve only the respect afforded me from the results of my combat.
     
    Knowledge is something we get in school or from the advice and teachings of others. Instinct is something that comes from another place (choose from where depending on your faith). Experience is where we have been, seen, done, felt, etc….
     
    It is the combination of these things that produce results when we apply them together. When they are applied together, great things can be accomplished.
     
    Regards,
     
    Dr. Scott

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    #165413

    Sam and Ella
    Member

    hbgb b^2:  “You are so far from correct, it is comical…”
    hbgb b^2:  “You should look up an old B&W training film on the subject.   It was titled, “Right, the first time” and is from the 1950’s…You’ll see similarities to TQ, 6S, Lean, ToC, Va/NVa and the PAIcEc model.”
    Ummm, sorry but……..given your own last statement, could you explain how my first post was “so far from correct, it is comical…”?  While engineers and Quality is sequestered in the conference room with today’s consultant, a pan of bagels, and coffee, there is a mechanic with a wrench who already knows how to fix the problem if somebody were not consumed with justifying his “quality program” and consultant expense so he can get himself a nice review and raise.  JUST LET THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW THE PROCESS FIX THE PROBLEMS AND LET THE CONSULTANTS GET REAL JOBS. 

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    #165417

    Brandon
    Participant

    Stevo – you’re always good for chuckle amongest the rift-raft.
    BTW (1) – and Newton was one in how many opportunities?
    BTW (2) – you have a point.

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    #165420

    Van Kim Ban
    Member

    Do  you  sleep over it  or  percolate?

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    #165421

    Van Kim Ban
    Member

    In-depth,wise  and  well  said
    I  believe  you  deserve  to  be a  PhD holder,
    best  regards

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    #165422

    Van Kim Ban
    Member

    TQM is  a  wide approach (concept),
    SS is  a  methodology (project -oriented)

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    #165425

    GB
    Participant

    S&E,
    My beef with your post is that it is all-encompassing and sweeping.
    Now i’m sorry that you had a less than stellar experience with TQM, as it was rolled out in your environment, but many of us have had quite opposite experiences.   My point is that the methodology is solid and WHEN APPROPRIATELY used/rolled out, it stands the test of time.
    The basic methods are sound…It sounds like your exposure to it was lacking.   Get over it…
    Geezo-peezo…It’s like arguing the merits of a wooden wagon wheel vs the latest z-rated kevlar belted super-tire.   Both can get the job done and one was influenced/preceded by the other…

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    #165426

    GB
    Participant

    Ron, I was being sarcastic…

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    #165427

    BC
    Participant

    What is a real job?
    Let me try an operational definition:  One who adds value.
    That would include:  farmers, direct labor in manufacturing plants, and video game programmers.  Everything else would be “consulting”.

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    #165428

    GB
    Participant

    That’s a bit sweeping.
    While TQM formed the basis of a business philosophy, it also collected several specific methodologies under it’s umbrella, as applied at Companies I worked for.
    Van, didn’t you start this thread by asking about the differences?
    Why are you now answering your own question (somewhat incorrectly), you doofus!

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    #165432

    Van Kim Ban
    Member

    I’m glad  because a  debate  was  triggered,and  that  was  my  aim from  the  beginning.
    best  regards

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    #165431

    Sam and Ella
    Member

    “Geezo-peezo…It’s like arguing the merits of a wooden wagon wheel vs the latest z-rated kevlar belted super-tire.   Both can get the job done and one was influenced/preceded by the other…”
    No.  It’s like arguing the merits of a wooden wagon painted red vs the same wooden wagon painted blue with a silver racing stripe added to make it seem like it’s something new, special, and worth more money. 

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    #165433

    Van Kim Ban
    Member

    Funny  &  Sarcastic

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    #165434

    Van Kim Ban
    Member

    But  if  you  notice  there  are  more  statistics  in  SS then  in TQM,
    just  consider  the name  alone

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    #165436

    GB
    Participant

    That was funny!
    (seriously)

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    #165437

    GB
    Participant

    Are you being serious?

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    #165439

    Brandon
    Participant

    Come on VKB – take a moment and compose your thoughts before you post – you posted 3 comments to this string in a row. Then a few more a couple minutes later.
    It’s known as Muda.

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    #165442

    Mikel
    Member

    Dr. Al,You don’t have a clue.

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    #165444

    Brandon
    Participant

    Isn’t it amazing so many people with a dislike for SS come to this site to declare their distain for it…and our ignorance?
    I mean…why come here?
    I don’t care for ballroom dancing, for example, yet I don’t go to ballroom dancing sites to disparage those who do.

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    #165462

    Stevo
    Member

    Dr Scott,
     
    My comments are not directed at any one person, that would require focus and I’m not feeling very focused lately.
     
    I really don’t have too much problem with people signing “Dr.” if they are:
     

    Pointing fun at them by calling themselves Dr, knowing that their PhD is in archeology or English lit and doesn’t really help in our discussions.
    So proud of the accomplishment that they want to shout it from the rooftops. (Social comment – Stevo finds this kind of sad if this is how they define themselves)
    Working in the academia world and need to use the degree to be let in the front door.
    Work in an ER.
     
    I do have an issue if:
     

    They are using it somehow differentiate themselves to a higher level from others in an attempt to lessen their peers.
     
    Wow!  Such a heavy topic, I don’t like these ones.  I’m going back to my original non-value add comments.
     
    Stevo
     
    Ps.  I can’t refute your Newton knowledge, because I learned mine from Saturday morning cartoons and I suspect that they are not 100% accurate.

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    #165463

    Van Kim Ban
    Member

    good  point

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    #165466

    Brandon
    Participant

    Stevo – those cartoons weren’t accurate…oh, no. Please don’t say anything about the Easter bunny….please!!

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    #165467

    Dr. Scott
    Participant

    Stevo,
    Too funny! I too learned a lot from Saturday morning cartoons. Scooby Doo taught me much about problem solving and getting out of tough situations.
    And I am glad to hear you weren’t swinging at me. One of these days someone might connect with the blade and leave a scar. However, so far so good.
    Take Care,
    Dr. Scott

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    #165500

    Capt.Kaizen
    Participant

    Sitting around and doing nothing but expecting a different that’s my motto.. does that count for problem solving????

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    #165501

    Alderman
    Participant

    Sorry forgot the word “outcome” sitting around doing nothing and expecting a different OUTCOME… yeah thats it yeah..

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    #165502

    Stevo
    Member

    Aye aye Captain,
     
    Telekinetic problem solving is the next big thing.  Consider yourself a pioneer.
     
    Stevo

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    #165524

    Van Kim Ban
    Member

    Agree
    Thank You

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    #165527

    Ron
    Member

    What amazes me is that there are that many people out there that even rember what TQM meant. After all it was only a buzz term for about six months before it was replaced by more significant three letter acronyms.
     
    I feel is is similar to an uneducated person complaining about the cost of medical treatment without knowing the what it takes to become a doctor, or nurse or the cost ofthe equipment.
    “Ignorance is Bliss”

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