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Dr Deming on Six Sigma and Lean (Youtube)

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Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 35 total)
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  • #53119

    lepinekong
    Participant

    Listen to Dr Deming when asked about Six Sigma and Lean :)

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    #188150

    Darth
    Participant

    This is what I got using your link:
    The URL contained a malformed video ID.

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    #188159

    lepinekong
    Participant

    The problem comes from isixsigma bug : remove the isixsigma part to go directly to youtube.

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    #188162

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    What you’re seeing is the portrayal of Dr. Deming by Mike Micklewright, a self-avowed six sigma hater.
    I generally like Mike for his Lean stuff and devotion to Dr. Deming, but I don’t think that Deming himself would disavow ss, just how it is practiced by some.

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    #188164

    lepinekong
    Participant

    I don’t know Mike Micklewright, I will try to join and ask him as it is not clear if it was a retranscription of one of true Deming Seminar.But as for me, I have met a close friend of Deming who has translated Deming’s book in my country and he did indeed tell me that Deming didn’t like the six sigma and ISO stuff because it betrays the true spirit of Quality. And that himself refused to put his name as he was asked to do so in ISO Program because he didn’t want to caution that deviant spirit which was marketing according to him.

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    #188165

    lepinekong
    Participant

    As I said it’s a bug of isixsigma which appends its own url to youtube url so you should not click on the click but copy and paste the link directly in your browser.

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    #188166

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Well, since Deming was a statistician and learned from Shewhart, I doubt that he would really be anti-six sigma.

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    #188168

    lepinekong
    Participant

    Sure he did as I was myself told by a close friend of Deming who was also a statician see full detail in the other thread:
    https://www.isixsigma.com/forum/showmessage.asp?messageID=162269As you say Shewhart and Deming were statisticians and what they did say is that you cannot apply classical probabilities to Real World, that is what was revolutionary in their viewpoint at their time which was forgotten in “modern” time.Deming did say it would take at least 50 years for people to understand well, it seems it will take 50 years more :)

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    #188169

    Mikel
    Member

    Tell me what you have learned from Deming that is not embraced by
    Six Sigma?I don’t think you actually know Deming’s teachings.

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    #188172

    Darth
    Participant

    Deming died in 1992. As a result he really didn’t have much exposure to SS nor could he have really envisioned the impact it has had. Deming did dislike the old TQM and TQL and made that known on more than one occasion. As has been pointed out, the Deming imitator is really nothing in the field and frankly the only time I have seen his name is in a small ad in the back of Quality Progress so I wouldn’t really conclude that he is channeling Deming’s thoughts.

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    #188179

    lepinekong
    Participant

    As I said I prefered to quit the QA field a dozen year ago (I was indeed specialized in SPC as I was trained in Mathematics. ) for Software Engineering with a deep interest in Mathematical Finance. Unfortunately then came CMMI standard in IT inspired from the ISO and Six Sigma which created the control spirit with such things as “Governance” and yeah … SPC.Well I should have been happy as a former SPC engineer but I knew that it would be a catastrophe. I won’t extend too much but in the end CMMI II retired SPC. That is SPC is a usefull tool but because most people abuse it because they do not understand real world statistics, they use it like school teachers taught them: mechanically as if Normal Law applies. In Finance it’s the same thing, they have a theory called VAR or Value At Risk which make the Whole Institutional World believe that Risk can be predicted “scientifically” based on Probability and as such a crash should never occur within 1 over billions of chance.And people in Finance and elsewhere from the “QA” overload operationals with Forms and Forms and Key indicators to fill supposedly to improve quality whereas it’s just buraucracy.

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    #188180

    lepinekong
    Participant

    That In-betweeners are not needed. All the commercial world around six sigma is full of them. I’ve written a ton of QA Procedures, but nobody operationnaly really need or use them: it’s just a bunch of useless generalities that you can copy and paste from templates.I was a young engineer at that time, that was my first job, and I realize they recruit a lot of people who have no real experience of operational business because they don’t care, they just wanted the ISO label. A lot of Mantra or Slogans, yes indeed I did realize after that Deming was right whereas I couldn’t see what’s wrong in the first place, I couldn’t see that all the statistics teachers had taught me were theory that shouldn’t be applied in the real world.That Managers love certainty of Key Indicators because it prevent them from thinking and improving the process. They leave this to the Army of Consultants in QA to do this job whereas these guys have no idea of how a Job really is. They just do measure and draw the charts and spell a bunch of useless generalities.Not astonished that Lean Management and Agile Alliance were born in reaction to this but I’m pretty certain that the two will finish as anything else as being overly spoiled by commercial spirit.

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    #188181

    Mikel
    Member

    Actually died Dec. 20, 1993

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    #188182

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Having poor or incompetent implementation does not invalidate the methods, just the practitioners.

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    #188183

    Darth
    Participant

    He died in 1992 but they finally buried him in 1993 ala Weekend at Bernie’s. That way his groupies were able to earn some add’l money. I’m surprised that you didn’t know that.

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    #188184

    lepinekong
    Participant

    The method is wrong because it is built around selling consulting and tools instead of teaching people to do things by themselves. It’s a bit like what happens to developped countries where they have been become dependant on the tools and chemicals from the developped countries.

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    #188185

    Mikel
    Member

    Hey, don’t try to kid me. I know all of the great December events
    -Dec 1 Rosa Parks arrested
    Dec 7 Pearl Harbor
    Dec 8 John Lennon killed
    Dec 8 Bodhi Day
    Dec 12 Fiesta of our Lady of Guadeloupe
    Dec 17 Wright Bros first flight
    Dec 20 Deming
    Dec 25 Hammer and sickle lowered for last time

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    #188186

    Darth
    Participant

    I’m impressed. I hope you have recovered from your adventure in the healthcare system.

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    #188187

    Mikel
    Member

    You have no idea what you are talking about

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    #188188

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    I tried at least 3 times to tell this person it’s the implementation not the methodology.Β  Mind made up and closed to alternate hypotheses.Β 

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    #188189

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Brother Darth:Β  A little respect for one of the true titans of quality improvement.

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    #188190

    clb1
    Participant

    …don’t forget 23 December – birth of the transistor.

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    #188192

    lepinekong
    Participant

    Sorry I’m working for multiple Multi-National Clients for 20 years and it’s always the same species I meet that’s the reason We’re going to outsource IT to India because Quality continue to suck and suck everywhere.Like in Stock Market, the Industry is just trying to sell stuffs in one sector then switch to another one, Business Scorecards, Six Sigma, now Lean, … and 10 years later what didn’t work is exported to IT. And now IT is plundered with Governance where I am losing 50% of my time doing politics to make things just work.

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    #188193

    lepinekong
    Participant

    What I’m telling you is useless because you don’t even understand where the problem is. But what is the consequence is that IT also will now be outsourced to because Quality sucked so much in IT for years because of these fake Quality System exported from old industry.

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    #188194

    Mikel
    Member

    Who gives a rat’s axx if IT is outsourced?

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    #188195

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    lepinekong,
    You said you were a Program Manager in IT. What it sounds like is that you want to blame the quality system which sounds a lot like you never took responsibility for the quality. How about instead of throwing your toys, blaming everyone else and playing the victim, how about standing up and saying this is my fault.
    This entire string has had you posting some very bizarre logic or lack of logic. You might want to get some help.
    Just my opinion.

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    #188196

    Chris Seider
    Participant

    Where is Christmas?Β  Of course, it’s not accurately on that day.Β  Just think, isn’t that now the day the guy set his pants on fire on a NW flight?Β  Luckily it didn’t lead to a tragic event to remember….
    Still sobbing here over the Packers loss….it’s just a game though.

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    #188197

    e
    Participant

    lepinekong,
    Consider this….ISO wasn’t originally directed toward process improvement so that’s what was attempted to embrace with the 2000 standard.
    Also, have you considered the following dilemma?Β  ISO auditors need to continue to be called back in for further certification work.Β  If the ISO auditors were up to snuff and truly audited the processes and not paperwork, would the companies bring them back when they indicated out of compliance?Β  The answer is no.
    Don’t confuse lean six sigma with ISO or SPC, please!
    Your comment about key process indicators doesn’t make sense.Β  If the right ones are selected, then improvement efforts would be driven by them.

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    #188198

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Sir Seider:Β  Not to fret, Brett is still playing!

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    #188199

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    E:Β  Having been a certified ISO9000 auditor, I don’t agree that the original version had no CI aspect.Β  It wasn’t as pronounced or overt, but it was there.Β  Also, the recertification was to ensure that processes were maintained and do not atrophy.
    Β 

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    #188200

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Hasn’t stopped any number of other posters.

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    #188201

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    MBBinWI,
    Let me get this straight. You don’t wantΒ Favre and send him packing. He shows up in GB with Minnesota and gets boo’ed by the GB fans. Favre beats up the Packers.
    The Packers get beat up again today so they are out of it so now the Cheeseheads want to claim they are still in it because Favre is still playing? That is a little fickle even for someone from WI.
    Just my opinion.

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    #188202

    Vallee
    Participant

    “t’s just a bunch of useless generalities that you can copy and
    paste from templates” ISO whether a good thing or not was about standardization…
    something Deming did not believe in… right? Wrong!
    Standardization that can be used is what he preached. Now there is also a thing called garbage in and garbage which has
    had an impact on many ISO implementations. Anybody using cut
    and paste templates on junk is using junk to make junk. Clean up
    your processes by seeing if they even worked in the first place. ISO
    also does not say everything needs a procedure. Now walk in an auditor who says you have a number of findings
    for people not using the procedures that your company wrote. The
    auditor, not a good thing, stays independent and does not dig
    deeper to find out why not. Guess what, the auditor gets to write it
    up again if not fixed and you just blamed the worker who got
    caught. How do you know this is your factory? Do you ever say this… “we
    got an ISO inspection coming lets get the records cleaned up and
    tell the workers not to tell the inspector anymore than they ask
    for!”So can SPC, ISO, Six Sigma, Lean , good RCA., Deming… help or
    hurt you?? Yes! Is there anyone ONE magic bullet? NO!So if you had started out your post with your words and your issues
    and not a link that was removed and does not work, then we could
    have gotten to the root of evil that was on your mind. I hope this helps.

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    #188221

    GB
    Participant

    LepineKong,
    You sound exactly like a bloke I used to work with named Felix C.. I wonder…

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    #188226

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Mike:Β  Just to clear this up, although I’m currently an MBB in WI, I’m originally from Minnesota and have ALWAYS and ONLY been a Vikings fan.Β  It is sweet irony that now the QB that GB didn’t want is going to lead a rival to the Superbowl.
    (and even if Favre actually gets it done, there is only one Vikings QB – Fran the Man!)

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