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Fair Fee For Lean Training?

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  • #46039

    Ken Theriot
    Participant

    I have been designing training and teaching classes in lean in my organization for the past 2 years.  I have been asked to provide some training to ANOTHER company, which I would like to do.  But I have no idea what to charge for my services.  My plan is to provide 1 day of basic lean awareness training, printed handouts of the presentation, at the company’s site (they are about 2 hours away).  Any suggestions?
    Thanks!
    Ken 

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    #151621

    Jim Shelor
    Participant

    Dear Ken,
    If you charge them for it, you have to have a business license.  In Washington, it takes a state, county, and city license to conduct business and charge for your services.
    How does your company feel about you doing this?  Are they willing to pay your salary for the day you do it for good will with the other company?
    You company may be willing to pay your salary and they charge the other company for your services.
    There are also federal and state tax issues to deal with.
    Good luck,
    Jim Shelor

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    #151623

    Ken Theriot
    Participant

    Thanks Jim,
    I was not entirely explicit in my first message.  My current “company” is the military, from which I am shortly about to retire (as in a matter of weeks).  So that isn’t the issue.  I am permitted to work elsewhere during my teminal leave, which is when I would be conducting this workshop.  I already possess industry credentials/certifications in this field, and fully intend to seek the necessary licensing to act as a legitimate business.  I am merely seeking some point of reference on fees commonly charged for the kind of training I plan to conduct.
    Ken 

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    #151624

    Adam L Bowden
    Participant

    Hi Ken,
    The amount charged varies quite considerably – and the way is is charged varies also.  You could charge by the attendee, by hour, by day or even by % share in improved profitability.
    I’ve seen rates varying from $80 per hr for a pretty junior trainer upto $13.5k per day for a VERY high level seasoned consultant. 
    You have to set your own rates based upon your intrinsic value proposition and this has to be a client that will pay the percieved value you offer.
    One question – is this a “one shot deal” or are you proposing a deployment / training / consulting covering all topics for fucussed and long term success.  It may make a difference to your pricing rationalle.
    Chat off line if you want to dig deeper.
    Best regards,
    Adam  [email protected]
     

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    #151635

    Darth
    Participant

    A single entrepreneur can hope to get around $1200-$3000 per day plus expenses or what the market will bear. If it is a government organization you will likely be on the lower range. A commercial client may go towards the upper range. Of course, all of this depends on the perceived value that you bring versus alllllll the competition out there. You might also charge per head for the training. You need to also factor in the training materials. My suggestion would be to try and charge $5,000 for the day’s training up to 20-25 people and give them electronic versions of the materials for them to print.

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    #151639

    Allthingsidiot
    Participant

    Villanova  U. is  offering a  comprehensive 8-Weeks program  for $2000.

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    #151652

    pondering
    Participant

    Are you a graduate of the comprehensive Villanova University 8-week $2,000 program?   
     
    Obviously a reader’s assessment of the viability of a recommended program is via de facto assessment of the program’s product – you.   
     
    So, poster self-identified as “allthingsidiot”, are you stepping up and saying look at me, I’m a product of the Villanova University comprehensive 8-week $2,000 program, sign-up and you can graduate and function at a similarly high intellectual and contributory level?
     
    If so, that would give us something to ponder.     
     
    If you are not a graduate of said program what affords you the wherewithal to leap into the fray, every time anyone asks about training, touting the Villanova program?

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    #151655

    Jim Shelor
    Participant

    Dear Ken,
    If what you want to do is start a business as an instructor (amoung other things), I would start out at $100/hr for the classroom prep leason plans, exam prep, exam grading, practice problem development, practice problem grading, on site coaching and mentoring, or whatever else the customer wants.  Then as your reputation grows, you can begin to charge more.
    I am retired Navy and an independent consultant.  I started at $75/hour and I get full time business, and even a little more now at $150/hr.  I am thinking about another rate change.
    After all, $100/hr is $200,000/yr at 2000 hr.  In addition, you do not need to by health care (expensive!!!!!).  The start will be a little slow, but if you get really good references/recommendations from your initial clients, your business will grow rapidly.  You are off to a good start already with your Navy experience drawing in your first customer.
    Sincere regards,
    Jim Shelor

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    #151663

    Allthingsidiot
    Participant

    Pondering
    I  have  to  respect  your  sound  logic.Yes I’m  a  graduate  of  the Villanova 8-week programs for  the  Lean-SS & the SS-GB as  well.I’m  now  participating  in  the  Villanova U. 16-week SS-BB (1/1-22/4/2007).I actually  like  their  programes and  enjoy  their  on-line  methodology,feel satisfied .All  that  has nothing  to  do  with  my  selected  ID (Allthingsidiot) as  I  believe that even  with  more  “knowledge  and  experience” I’m  recognizing “how  ignorant still I’m?” and  will  be?and  need to  gain  more  experience  and  knowledge for  the  rest  of my  life.Thanks  for  the  enlightenment and  best  regards.    

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    #151668

    pondering no longer
    Participant

    Thanks.  I wish you well in your studies, their upcoming practicum and the long-term application of your skills and knowledge. 
     
    I now believe that I have a basis for evaluating the potential benefits derived from Lean/Six Sigma study using Villanova’s distance learning format, assuming of course that the material was not adversely impacted by excessive long-distance electron travel and/or culturally-based digital divides.  
     
    With your ever increasing knowledge of this field and willingness to share with the less adept may I suggest a forum nom de plume revamping on your part in the direction of “idiotnolonger”, “notanidiot” or the clever “menoidiot”?      
     
    Pondering no longer 

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    #151670

    Duke Okes
    Participant

    But if you”re going to work 2000 hours/year, that’s not exactly retirement!
    $1200-$3000 plus materials & expenses is reasonable/typical.

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    #151686

    accrington
    Participant

    I’m pleased to see that you’ve just started your 16 -week SS-BB  course at Villanova University. Did you finish colouring-in the pictures in the 8 -week course?
    I assume that you are now on Chapter 2 of Statistics for Dummies, and that we can we look forward to many more erudite contributions from your good self in the future.
    PS Do they offer a 8 week engineering degree course (I assume 16 weeks is an MSc or PhD or something)? It would save my son the bother of spending 3 penniless years in University if I could slip them a couple of grand for a certificate, and certainly avoid paying those damn tuition fees

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    #151687

    Ken Theriot
    Participant

    Thanks to all who replied!  I have MUCH more of a feeling for what to do now:). 
    The company has not settled on exaclty what they want.  The person who called me actually mentioned wanting to create “facilitators,” which would obviously require MUCH more than 1 day of training.  So I may be looking into charging “per hour” for my services if that is the case.
    Anyway…thanks again!
    Ken
    ps-the Villanova program is charging 2K PER STUDENT. 

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    #151692

    bargain
    Participant

    ps-the Villanova program is charging 2K PER STUDENT. 
     
    Quite a bargain indeed when you look at the apparent capability of its graduates.   
     
    Literacy, logic, possessing a field-specific body of knowledge, and mathematics aren’t necessarily all they’re cracked up to be anyway.    

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    #151701

    Bystander
    Participant

    Villanova has certainly found a way to print their own money.  In the current GB certificate class there are over 420 students and at $2 grand a head…well, you have certainly demonstrated that you can do your own math without needing to use my crayon.  
    I must admit though, you do have a point in your earlier post.  For example, here is what your $2000 gets you:  A 3 pack of DVDs to watch your lectures at your convenience; a couple of study guides so you can follow along with the DVDs, a 3-ring binder workbook; and a sign-in and password to access the site and take your multiple choice tests.  Definitely a self help program if there ever was one.  However, when I am finished with this class, I expect to get exactly what I signed up to get:  a better understanding of a significant quality improvement method that “may” give me some insight into analyzing and improving some of the processes in my business.  I really don’t expect to be an engineer, although that would be nice if it worked that way.  If you wish to begrudge me for trying to expand on my very limited knowledge base, then I suppose that is your right.  To me, Villanova seemed as good a way as any to accomplish my meager goal and I am sorry if that threatens you in some way.  
    In the meantime, I will take my coloring books and my Wiggles DVDs and get out of them whatever I can.  Don’t look for me at any of your Mensa meetings either.  I was not invited.
      
     

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    #151704

    Involved
    Participant

    Hey, for $1,500, I’ll give you a six pack of DVD’s (and a six pack of your favorite beer to drink while you “learn” at home, too), two four ring binder workbooks, two websites to access your two choice tests (with special decoder ring to use for the password) and all of the self help you can stand.  Then you can go out and reap havoc on your processes and start your true learning experience.  We’ll even send you a gold fringed certificate with all the frills on it saying you’re now a “certified” whatever belt.  For an extra $50.00, we’ll throw in the Six Sigma for Dummies book!  Any takers?

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    #151705

    sensitivity trainer
    Member

    No one is faulting or begrudging you for taking the initiative to expand your knowledgebase and gain new skills.    The only, and admittedly poorly intentioned, reason this came up was in picking at an individual who frequently leaps up and recommends a particular training path and does so with consistently poor spelling, grammar, syntax, logic, punctuation and an overall sloppy presentation, who is willing to call himself “allthingsidiot.”  
     
    Call me picky, but I think that if you are going to wholeheartedly and frequently recommend a training provider, saying that you used it/them and had a very positive training experience, you should make your comment in a manner that at least implies that you know what you’re talking about.
     
    Your well-written note is at least received neutrally and the Villanova programmatic offering can be assessed against your stated desires and intentions.  It meets your needs and you state how and why.   Great.  
     
    Maybe I’m just picky, but that’s how I see it, and it’s no slam at Villanova.   I’m fairly certain that there are many marginally effective online Six Sigma training programs and that Villanova is by no means one of the worst.

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    #151709

    Allthingsidiot
    Participant

    Nothing  is  cheap?Taht  type  of  on-line  education  has  costed  me some $10.000 until  now,starting  in 2001 with  Manitoba U. for  the CQM,and  then  the  Villanova SS-GB & Lean Courses ($2000 for  each),and  now  the  SS-BB (for $3500 including  the  Certification Exam.fee?).You  will  wonder if you  know  that I’m basically  a  chemical  engineer.Now  I’m  so  glad  because  I  gave  you  some  more  stories  for  making  your  sarcastic (funny)  remarks ?considering  that  I  have  worked  more  than  20  years  in  cement  industry,have  attended a  comprehensive TQM course  in  Japan  in  1993 (for  more  than  3  months),thae  main  professor was  the  famous  Goru dr.Kano (if  you  know  him?/).But  still I  believe  I  have  to  learn  from  you,enjoying  reading  your  funny  remarks.
    Good  Luck for  your  Son

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    #151739

    accrington
    Participant

    The dig in my post was not intended for people like you, who are trying to improve themselves at their own expense. It was specifically intended for a certain plonker who, having enrolled for his eight week on – line course, decides he will ‘test’ visitors to this web site by copying questions from his course materials, and asking for the anwers.
    Also some of his postings give wrong advice, which must call the quality of what he has been taught into question.
    I’m not familiar with the Villanova course materials, but I hope you get your money’s worth. I’m certainly not threatened by anyone using them, it’s not my money, and I’m not peddling Six Sigma belts, so I’m not losing any business to them.
    Good Luck with your studies.

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    #151749

    curiosity
    Participant

    Out of curiosity, how does one become “basically a chemical engineer”?  
    It would seem that you either are one or are not one – and a university degree in the field is the determinant.    Did you attend a university majoring in the chemical engineering field and graduate with a chemical engineering degree?  
    Or are you a cement engineer, cement made basically from chemicals and minerals?
    Did you also take and pass a technical writing class?
     

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    #151784

    Allthingsidiot
    Participant

    Yes It  is  a  post-graduate  Diploma in  chemical  engineering,at  the  end  you  have  to  submit  a  practical  project  (successfully)  and  then to pass  the  general Technical  Exam.
    best  regards  

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    #151824

    Ken Theriot
    Participant

    Thanks Jim,
    Actually my experience has been with the Air Force;).
    Ken

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    #161800

    KRyan
    Participant

    I am looking for some advice from Jim Shelor, since I have recently retired from the military and would like to follow in his footsteps as mentioned below….but have no real good ideas how to get started.  I have the LBC from SME and CSSBB from ASQ, plus quite a lot of experience training and running events for the military.
    Hopefully you’re still out there Jim!
    Thanks.
    Ryan

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    #162035

    Jim Shelor
    Participant

    Ryan,
    Yes.  I am still out here.
    Call me any Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday anytime (I am on Pacific Time (PDT)) at 509-531-4533 and we can talk.
    Respects,
    Jim Shelor

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    #162037

    Jim Shelor
    Participant

    Ryan,
    If you are looking for a permanent job with openings for Black Belts dealing with the military, try Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, Honeywell, General Electric, SAIC, and Westinghouse.
    If you want to be a private consultant there are several places to look that we can discuss.
    Just a little more information before we talk.
    Respects,
    Jim Shelor

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    #162052

    ISO
    Participant

    I’m taking a shot here cause of your name but do you have an ISO and lean six sigma roadmap?

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    #162102

    Ryan
    Member

    Thanks Jim,
    I’ll call you next week!
    Ken

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    #162103

    Ryan
    Member

    Jim,
    Not sure what you mean by ISO and Six Sigma road map exactly?  I haven’t dealt much with ISO stuff.  And the Lean and Six Sigma implementation plans I’ve worked with all usually have some sort of transformation roadmap/timeline.  But it sounds like you were thinking of something more specific than that.  
    Ryan 

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