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FMEA vs. CE

Six Sigma – iSixSigma Forums Old Forums General FMEA vs. CE

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  • #28789

    tanasak
    Member

    Hi!
    Before I become tobe BB. I had work on QS9000 in the quality engineer. And one tool that I had knowing, the process FMEA.
    Now, I’m working for the 6-Sigma. I confuse when going on Measue and analyze phase. Between C&E Matrix vs. FMEA which tool will use for identify the vital Xs.
    My 1st project has identify potential “Xs” in C&E and prioritize by pareto. FMEA in my undestanding is using for declare the relation of failure vs. effects of all interesting -process. I mean, I’m looking for the failure from all of activities of process mapping.
    May be I wrong?
     

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    #72242

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Tanasak,
    If you have been given a string of tools as an absolute, no deviation allowed methodology, then you were instructed incorrectly. If you are trying to follow what was presented as a methodology which you follow blindly, then you are doing it incorrectly. The objective of the Measure phase is to get a very well defined problem – period. If you are more comfortable with another tool and you get the same result then use the one you are comfortable with.
    The use of the Ishikawa Diagram does not have to be exclusisive of the FMEA. You can save the FMEA until the end of the Measure Phase and use it to sythesize all the tools used in the Measure Phase. Example: Process map – steps, Frequency of Occurance – capability study, Detection – MSA, etc. You can use the RPN to set priorities for hypothesis testing.
    One of the best SS consultants I know is a Shanin Master. When he works a project you will see things like Component Search. It doesn’t mean he is doing it wrong. He has taken the concept. Internalized it so it works for him and then applies it his way.
    If anyone has a problem with this just remind them there was no define step until GE got hold of it. That was what they felt it needed. You didn’t see anyone giving them a bunch of crap about following the steps blindly. It has to make sense for you.
    Good luck.

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    #72248

    Jim Johnson
    Participant

    I agree with Mike says.  I would like to ask a clarifying question:
    Are you asking about the C&E matrix or the C&E diagram (Ishikawa Diagram)?  The distinction between the two for me is the view of the criticality of inputs on specific customer concerns (outputs).  This gives some quantification to VOC.   It is useful in the Measure phase to determine the “critical” inputs that drive your customer’s view of the process.
    The FMEA (for me anyway) is more driven by the processes (or process steps) and attempts to understand the failure in each step as well as initial measurement systems that may already be in place.
    Bottom line, you could use both or neither depending on how well the tool fits with what you are doing and what you are comfortable using. 
     
    I hope that this helps.
     
    Jim J.

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    #72250

    tanasak
    Member

    Thank you very much, Mike& Jim
    Your both answers make more understanding.
     Let’ me clarify, Why did I ask that question?.
    I’m only one BB in my company. I need to prepare myself “understand” before conduct the GB training within my company. My confused have come from last “GB train the trainer “. Other BB(s) from friendly company were strongly keeping on the track of tool more than “What do we need from each phase of DMAIC ?” What’re they told to me?; after brainstroming for  X(s) must be use C&E next must take all of  X(s) to FMEA.The most score from FMEA will be picked to the list of improvement point.
    That’s absolutely different from my projects. 2 of 3 manufacturing projects will be close within a week. I didn’t follow that. But the projects have successed.
    And What’s happen at my friendly company ? When the number of projects were not represent to actual cost saving or CS?
     
     

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    #72261

    RR Kunes
    Member

    Neither!  FMEA is an excellent tool that should be utlized early in a process design or process improvement. The purpose for this tool is to identify those portion of a process or design which need the most improvement. It does not tell you root causes only symptoms.
    A C&E diagram is a very basic tool which probably is not required if you have completed an FMEA. The C&E diagram ( Fishbone) is only a brainstorming tool to help you look into areas which MIGHT be an issue.
    To develop root cause you must perform a data nanalu=ysis in the area of interest and statistically verifiy that a specific thing is responsible for a specific outcome. This should be verified statistically.
     

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    #72264

    Edwards
    Participant

    Tanasak,
    Don’t waste your valuable time performing process FMEA. You can get to the same results (critical x’s) much quicker using more simplistic tools that your sponsor and project team will understand much more easily (6s is not all about the tools, it’s about teamwork). My experience (only 2 years) has led me to do brainstorm>nominal group technique>C&E Diagram>C&E Matrix. This can be done in a 3 hour session with the whole team. Good fun and gets buy in from the operators (important factor). I’m sure the consultants will come back and disagree with this. They tout FMEA for a whole day of BB training, so will defent the income that it genarates for them.
    Good Luck,
    David

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    #72272

    Ale
    Participant

    Tanasak,
    The C&E diagram we use in define phase to help brainstorming X´s.
    The C&E matrix we commonly use to filter the brainstormed X´s we want to measure/analyze through FMEA since this last tool takes much more time to complete. 

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    #72279

    Doug Rogers
    Participant

    Do process map and define the X’s. The critical X’s can be determined by process experts, discussion of the process step using Fishbone, former studies, etc.
    Then perform FMEA’s on the most critical steps of your process map. The result should be action plans for preventive and contingency measures to make the project succeed.
    DOE’s may come out of the FMEA to determine critical X statistical impact. Many times people may say an X is critical but not know how much it effects Y.
    Hope this helps. 

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    #72294

    Ted
    Member

    Don’t be a slave to the tools.  Use the tools you are most comfortable with and therefore will deliver the greatest return for the effort.  If you are good at FMEA do them… if you can generate the knowledge you need to proceed using either the C&E (matrix or diagram) then use them.  The important thing to remember is that you are responsible to get to the answer and the improvement (which you must then verify and set controls on to maintain the gain).
     
     

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    #72307

    RR Kunes
    Member

    Dave,
     
    Sounds like you got a bad consultant.  FMEA is a natural consequence of a detailed process map. Utilizing your team to determine what can go wrong with a process and what is in place to detect those errors is a valuable brainstorming session.
    Do you need to do an FMEA probably not, do you need to do a detailed process map, probably not, do you need six sigma, probably not…But then you would be back fifty years in the manufacturing process.

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    #72519

    MN
    Participant

    Hi,for general use C&E,then for further specific purpose use FMEA,regards.   MN

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    #86909

    Tim
    Member

    I use a CE Matrix to define the most critical x’s then take them to the FMEA. In doing so you are focusing on the critical steps saving time and effort. Your team will thank you.

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    #86913

    Picklyk
    Participant

    hi mike.  curious, i’m about to submit a project for my six sigma certification.  we used a component search in the analyze phase to isolute root cause…kind of like hitting a home run to win the football game.  i personally agree that regardles of what buzzword a tool is attached to (shainin = component search). as long as it’s done properly and no indescrepancies can be found, you’re good to go.
    thoughts?

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