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Forget six we are at nine sigma

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  • #42521

    Whitehurst
    Participant

    Hi,
    Some companies claim that they are operating at 8 or even 9 sigma.
    Is it statistically possible to operate at 8 or 9 sigma.
    cheers!
     
     

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    #134294

    SuperMBB
    Member

    yes

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    #134295

    Mikel
    Member

    Any company claining to be at 8 or 9 is full of it.

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    #134297

    anahana
    Participant

    Statically, it is possible. But does it earn them as much profit? I mean you can achive high quality levels through rework.

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    #134302

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    anahana,
    A long time ago someone posted on this site “We finished continuous improvement a couple years ago and we are looking for the next big thing.” That was one of those comments where you get up from your computer shaking your head, splash water on your face and come back and see if you misread it. In the words of Louis Black that is one of those things that is so stupid that it rattles around inside your head until you fall over a few days later with an anurism. I battled back and survived that attack. As a part of my recovery program I have even added it (with an appropriate note that it came from iSixSigma) to my management presentation so they will understand how completely clueless some people can be. Believing those clueless people never ask stupid questions is completely naieve.
    I would like to congratulate you. You have now placed my life in jeopardy from an identical fate “I mean you can achive high quality levels through rework.” Please excuse me I need to go splash water on my face.

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    #134303

    anahana
    Participant

    May be you should have splashed water on your face before posting your reply.

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    #134308

    Biju
    Participant

    Anahana, maybe you should clarify what you ment  by “rework”.According to any quality models or standards rework means “To work over again” which is very much against their common motto “doing it right the first time itself and always”.

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    #134309

    anahana
    Participant

    That is exactly what I meant by rework. But my point is… well take this example: a process produces a final product in, let’s say, 5 steps, and step number 4 is considered to produce most of the defects in the final product. Now if all sub-products produced from step 4 are inspected and the defective ones are processed at step 4 again (rework) to get a conforming sub-product, then almost all of the final products will meet specifications (e.g. 99.999999% of the final products meet specs. i.e. high quality, defining quality here as conformance to specifications). However, this approach costs more than it should (due to rework), and it is not the way to continue producing such a product.
    The sentence I posted “You can achieve high quality levels through rework” was a sarcastic sentence; one that suggests that looking at the final number of conforming units, with no regard to how that number was achieved, does not say that the product is a Six Sigma product. But sometimes some people should read more carefully before posting any “reply”.
     
    Regards,       

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    #134310

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    anahana,
    They say “when you have dug yourself into a hole the first thing you should do is stop digging.”

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    #134333

    lin
    Participant

    Hi Mike,
    I thought you were working in the mining business.  Isn’t the whole idea to dig yourself into a hole?
    BH

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    #134334

    Swaggerty
    Participant

    General rule of thumb:
    anything with the word RE in front of it is EVIL>>>>
    what a joker!

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    #134336

    Mr IAM
    Participant

    Hmm…
    I don’t think it is possible in the real world.  I do believe there are certian product lines, or certian processes that could operate at that level but, for a company to have everything that it does, every customer CTQ operating at such a high level?  I don’t think so…
    Who is claiming such status?  I’m curious…
    Cheers!

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    #134337

    doubt
    Participant

    Hey Mr Carnell, but if cost of rework is less then cost of improvement (see low country cost), could anahana be right ?
     

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    #134343

    Big Dog
    Participant

    Sure….but if youre that good….I would suspect your VOCs must be maxed out…and you have no need for a “customer complaint” department….the company is a “model” and the benchmark for its industry…..
    I would seriously question the 9 sigma…and possibly relook your spec limits….do they really reflect the customer CTQs. 

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    #134344

    joeban
    Participant

    Can someone explain me please how this is statistically possible ?

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    #134365

    Vilfredo
    Member

    This is classic comedy dialogue. Thanks guys for the laughs…V

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    #134367

    Vilfredo
    Member

    MIaM,Are you certian of that?V

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    #134379

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Bill,
    Good point but never one you can’t get back out of.
    Regards

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    #134380

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    doubt,
    I would love to see someone come up with the case where it was cheaper to rework than to do it right the first time.
    I have seen the case where the defects were so low, the rework cost was so high and the reliability dropped off so badly (this part gets missed most frequently) it was cheaper to throw away the defects.
    Just my opinion.
    Good luck

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    #134381

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Vilfredo,
    You are welcome. I am glad you enjoyed it.
    Regards

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    #134382

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    joeban,
    It is probably easier to do statistically than in actuality. Measure something (anything) and calculate the mean and std deviation. Create tolerance around that mean and std deviation where the closest tolerance limit is 9 times the std deviation away. Now you have it.
    If you are doing the 1.5 shift then it needs a little more room.
    That will do it statistically. Finding something that runs that well in real life may be a different issue. I listened to a couple guys discussing something about a lunch deliver system in India, Mumbai I think, where the defect level is at some unbelievably low level. It was a discussion so there wasn’t any actual data given.
    Just my opinion.
    Good luck

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    #134383

    doubt
    Participant

    Mr. Carnell, these are strange words from a consultant like you. Do it right first time is always better than rework, but is it free of charge ? Are “cost of quality” free of charge ? Isn’t “improvement program” just a ROI ?  And if  the ROI isn’t good enough ? Reliability isn’t a general matter.
    Regards. 

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    #134384

    anahana
    Participant

    Guys,
    I never said assumed the cost of rework would be less. Read the post. 

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    #134385

    Trainee BB
    Member

    You can prove anything through statistics so it must be possible to operate ant 8 or 9 sigma!!
    About the rework debate, lets get back to basics guys, get it right first time and the profits will soar. Forget rework.

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    #134388

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    doubt,
    I am not sure why you find my comments strange. The idea that there was a break even point for quality improvement is a fairly antiquated idea, It was typically believed several years ago that that point was at 3 sigma, then 4 , then 5, then 6, ……. Your questions about Quality being free (that was Crosby not Carnell), rework isn’t free, etc is an old conversation that has been resolved to manys satisfaction. You may have that business that is the exception. The only way to know for sure is to do the numbers.
    Just my opinion.
    Good luck

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    #134389

    Optimize
    Participant

    I believe statistically speaking you can reach (infinity – 1) sigma. You can never statiscally cover 100% of the distribution, though.
    Has anyone seen any articles on diminishing returns related to achieving a higher sigma? Maybe looking at a marginal cost benefit analysis of acheiving higher quality.   

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    #134390

    Gottu
    Participant

    I have some data related to Mumbai Dabbawala’s…if anyone is interested then i can share the pitch ( pls provide email )
    Gottu

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    #134391

    VP
    Member

    pl send the pitch to [email protected]
     
    regards
    vp

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    #134401

    Mr IAM
    Participant

    Certain of what?

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    #134407

    Ship Disturber
    Member

    Rework is necessary to the national economy; Without rework, there would be fewer jobs. With fewer jobs, there would be less expendable income. With fewer people buying fewer things, our economy would become stagnate. If we “do it right the first time”, sure, the company makes more money. But, if you think that this profitable company is going to invest in another plant in the states with its newfound wealth – good luck. Take all these secrets of “doing it right”, and build a new plant in Asia! Let India or Chinese follow these profitable, standardized procedures for even greater Margins!
     
     

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    #134408

    Mr IAM
    Participant

    Wow

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    #134413

    Jered Horn
    Participant

    “Wow” is right.
    GIVE ME A FREAKIN’ BREAK!!!!!!!
    Stop all the disease elimination/prevention research.  What would happen to all our doctors, nurses, hospitals, etc., etc. if we didn’t have all this sickness and suffering?

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    #134434

    JAL Mr Six Sigma
    Participant

    Sorry  no such thing exists……and don’t try to invent it or your missing the whole point of Six Sigma
    JAL Mr. Six Sigma

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    #134510

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Gottu,
    Sorry for the delay in the answer we seem to having some electricity issues.
    The discussion I heard was interesting so I would really love to see something with some facts. Please mail to [email protected].
    Thanks in advance.

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    #134512

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    HornJM,
    It is a simple bathtub curve. They have gotten a fairly high percentage of us through infant mortality. The desease stuff is just that ambient failure level on the way to wearout. Wearout keeps getting extended by the replacement parts. Next step – tie all the replacement parts together and you get a person so you just keep moving the brain from one vehicle to another?
    Just a thought.
    Regards

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    #134516

    Swaggerty
    Participant

    Guys, i think i may have a 8 or 9 sigma business.  I supply fire wood to local retailers.  The wood comes  to me in roughlt one inch by one inch by 12 ft long.  the only specification is that i cut it to length no shorter than 3 inches and no greater than 7 inches.  I have never had a customer complaint or return in over 2 years.  because of the wide tollerance, i also use the full length of the wood….no scrap except for the saw draft when cutting, which is 1/16th of an inch each cut….this creates saw dust which i also sell.  
    Should i write a book?

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    #134518

    Van Loon
    Participant

    If your process is the result of a sisxsigma (or ninesigma) program, then yes, you can write a book. If not, be careful about the performance of your process, because if you hire a belt she/he’ll show you how many improvements you still can do. 

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    #134520

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    Forget the book, go straight to consulting.  Your niche could be helping client organizations work with their customers to widen specs so that everything they produce falls within those specs.  Hence, they can be 9 sigma or better.  Let me know when you plan the IPO and I will definitely invest since most organizational leadership would rather take that approach than actually try to improve.  Good luck.

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    #134522

    AB
    Participant

    Dude you’ re way to complacent (or you’ve just made up the story of your business). In a real business the story would go more like this:
    So..I had a very good process..meeting customer specified limits all the time, very little scrap..but then we had price pressure and we lost some big orders… so we tried to reduce cost by letting some people go.. now that adversely affected our quality but at least we had some customers. The next step was obviously, to get the quality back to original levels, so we found offshore sources of wood (Canadian lumber) that was substantially cheaper. That, we knew was a short term measure since the overall demand for construction wood is shrinking due to increased usage of plastic derivates and for residential furniture, we’re seeing increased use of recycled compressed materials … and on…. and on… …..
    In short, to really keep your process at a high sigma level for a sustained period of time, you would have to be operating in a business where demand is 100% predictable, supply is 100% predictable, your people never make mistakes, customers accept your price all the time, customers don’t demand improvements (which happens only if you have customers like yourself).
    So arrest your thoughts about writing a book, re-invest the proceeds while the sun in shining into sustaining your competitive advantages.
    Good luck
    AB

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    #134561

    Sorour
    Participant

    If you are measuring performance, and claiming to be 8/9 sigma, something is wrong! At 8/9 sigma level, one can pretty much stop measuging.

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