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Irenai, tsukurenai dasanai

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Viewing 34 posts - 1 through 34 (of 34 total)
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  • #36274

    selina Qin
    Member

    Dear Sir:What can we say in english these three words, Irenai, Tsukurenai; Dasanai?Thank you!Best regardsSelina

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    #104207

    selina Qin
    Member

    Nobody wants to help me out?

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    #104211

    Charmed
    Participant

    Dear selina Qin:
    Charming, Strange, Mysterious.
    I don’t have a clue.  Sorry, I don’t know Japanese.  But, try the three words on those Japanese who don’t know English.  Might just work.

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    #104212

    Charmed
    Participant

    And sorry, no offense, if I made a wrong assumption about the three words being Japanese words.

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    #104216

    Noname expert
    Participant

    I advise you to go to another website that deals with languages,This is not the right  venue for your question,regards.

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    #104229

    Know Name
    Participant

    Most of us know how to use the search function on our Internet Explorer. You don’t?
    Since others have grabbed at the bait, wasting their time, I’ll suggest this. Type “Irenai+dasanai” into the search platform and enter. If you are using MSN and maybe others, you’ll get a hit. I did. Repeat as necessary. Now wasn’t that easy?

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    #104238

    Lv
    Member

    Dear Charmed
    Thank you for your attention and your patience!:)
    I just translated it ” No defects in; no defects made, no defects out”. And i just wanted to confirm with the experts here if i am right. Since
    i have already seached, no results at all, then i turned to your help.
    If any bother, i am terrible sorry.
    Best regards
    Selina
     
    Selina
     

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    #104239

    Lv
    Member

    I am terrible sorry to disturb you.
    And anyway thank you for your advice
    Selina

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    #104242

    Charmed
    Participant

    Dear Selina:
    See what I said.
    Charming, Strange, Mysterious.
    ” No defects in (Charming); no defects made (Strange), no defects out (Mysterious)”.
    Makes sense, doesn’t it now? 

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    #104243

    Charmed
    Participant

    Dear Selina:
    Does this new found wisdom mean:
    Defects Out = Defects In + Defects Made
    Can Defects Made bedome a negative quantity? 

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    #104246

    Noname expert
    Participant

    You seem  to be so friendly and polite that anybody wants to help you.My only question:What is the original language of those words?thank you.

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    #104253

    Lv
    Member

    Dear Noname expert
    Those three words are Japanese. I need to translate them into English. That’s why i came here. I used to get similar helf from this web.
    Thanks& regards
    Selina
     

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    #104254

    Lv
    Member

    Dear Charmed
    Not necessarily. Just because it wasted resources in the in-process, and the cost will go higher, the process capacity will lower, so we just prevent the defects happening
    Selina

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    #104259

    Charmed
    Participant

    Dear Selina:
    You ask how I say in English: Irenai, Tsukunai, Dasanai. 
    You translate: No defects in; no defects made, no defects out.
    I wonder: Is Defects Out = Defects In + Defects made?
    Is it possible to make Defects Made a negative quantity?. You say NO. I now say OK.  Let me agree. Is Defects Made always a positive quantity?  If yes, why? How is Defects Made a positive quantity?  What is the process? What is the cause? How are defects made?  If they are made, why not make them negative. Three simple words, but they mean a lot. I think. Why three words uttered by some great Japanese philosopher of Quality and Six Sigma that dear Selina teaches?   

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    #104263

    Charmed
    Participant

    Dear Selina:
    Omar Khayyam said: 
    The moving finger writes
    And having writ, moves on.
    Not all your piety, nor wit.
    Can lure it back to erase half a line. (or something like this).
    Looks like defects are made and they just keep moving down the line (or process).  There is no way to fix it, like Omar Khayyam’s moving finger statement! Is there a way?  There must be!

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    #104360

    Heebeegeebee BB
    Participant

    Charmed,
    WTF are you yammering about????  
    Why are you baiting Selina into a fight???
    What a goofball…
    Selina, I’ll try to “Google” the term and will post results accordingly.

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    #104488

    Lv
    Member

    Thanks!

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    #104490

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Charmed,
    There is another well-known Japanese engineering expression:
    “You can’t make chicken soup out of chicken sh1t.”
    Andy U

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    #104491

    Peppe
    Participant

    Charmed, to become defect negative you must reenginering product and process and so if you compare it with previous one it become negative defect out = defect in +(defect made new process – defect made old one). But it is a new one, not the same = improvement. This is the point. Otherwise, quality of product/process cannot be positive as absolute value, until the defect definition will be as actual (your view is true for artisans, where the variation between parts must be present and it is part of value add, but here we are talking about industrial production, unfortunately, if I’m not wrong .
    Rgs, Peppe
    P.S. Very good surprise to hear about Khayyam from you.
      

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    #104492

    Charmed
    Participant

    Dear Peppe and Andy U and Selina:
    If you both use some imagination you will be able to see that there are “real” processes in “real” manufacturing processes where exactly what I have noted can happen. Alas, no one can see that
    Defects In = Defects Out + Defects made
    also applies in such process es and we can have Defects Made < 0.  With my warmest regards. Have a great day and a wonderful week.

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    #104493

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Charmed,
    If you also used some imagination you would understand the thrust of my Japanese quotation …
    Just in case you’ve misinterpreted the quotation, let me explain – it implies that ‘Defects In’ contribute to the demise of a proportion of a product that eventually become ‘Defects Out.’
    In other words, generally there is a correlation between defective materials and defective products.
    Let me give you an example .. there was a view at a certain company UK that incoming inspection adds no value; so they eliminated it. I told them that while this is a correct principle, it does not confirm that the incoming materials are conforming.
    Shorty after the Japanes company re-instituted incoming inspection, we found that approx. 80% of suppliers drawings were the wrong version, and 60% of the parts were non-conforming. (Prior to the take-over, components were modified on the shop floor.)
    Guess what happened shorty after these error were corrected, the ‘non-value added step’ minimised losses ….
    If I have misunderstood the thrust of your proposition, then please clarify in terms of my argument, since repeating your own thesis in a variety of different form is not going to help me understand your position.
    With respect,
    Andy

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    #104495

    Charmed
    Participant

    Dear Andy U:
    Your example is an excellent one – if there are defects coming in they just keep flowing down the line. In some ways, I did misunderstood your Japanese quotation, I thought you were mocking me (with your chicken sh1t no way to make soup story) for being so foolish as to think that defects made can become less than zero. 
    Let me give you the kind of example that I was thinking about. I have actually been in such an environment. 200 parts are being made per hour and flow down a line. Of these 100 parts are rejects and are returned back to the start of the line. In the second pass the “defects” are being reduced and the parts then exist the line. Yes, in a plant where I visited as a part of an assignment, the plant manager took me and asked me if I had any ideas. That was not why I was there.  But, after spending some time with me, he realized that may be he could pick my brains for something that he had to deal with every single day. Instead of 200 parts per hour, they were only getting 100 parts per hour out the door.
    There are other examples where “defects” are introduced quite intentionally since they “improve” the product.  Yes.  These are “defects” on the atomic level.  Dopants, or impurities, that are added in the semiconductor industry are defects in one sense, but desirable for the performance of the product in another sense. 
     

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    #104496

    Peppe
    Participant

    Good example Andy. Same situation experienced here in Italy. They justified “good inward inspection is just no add value, supplier must improve, otherwise we charge them cost of poor quality” When they discover that many supplier errors comes was caused by us and we haven’t more any filter, they wasn’t more so happy….   Rgs, Peppe

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    #104498

    Sean
    Member

    I found a somewhate different translation than you have been discussing (on the website of a Japanese company):
    Irenai             Never accept poor quality productTsukuranai          Never do poor quality productDasanai               Never deliver poor quality product to the customers
     

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    #104499

    Sean
    Member

    I found a somewhate different translation than you have been discussing (on the website of a Japanese company):
    Irenai              Never accept poor quality productTsukuranai          Never do poor quality productDasanai               Never deliver poor quality product to the customers
     

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    #104500

    Sean
    Member

    Damn, I screwed that up….
    Anyway, the site I found is a Thai company (not Japanese).  Here is a link if you want to read more about their interpretation of ITD:
    http://www.takapla-tpl.com/datat.html
    Note – I have no affiliation, etc. etc.
    SP

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    #104503

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Greetings Peppe …  I hope things are going well for you and yours.

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    #104506

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Charmed,
    I am familiar with gettering and denuded zones, but I do not follow the ‘flow line’ example. How did the re-processing/ rework improve the quality of the component? Can you be more specific because it sounds more unusual than the creation of ‘trapping centres’ in semiconductor devices.
    Cheers,
    Andy

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    #104511

    Charmed
    Participant

    Dear Andy U:
    This was a few years ago when I was working in a foundry that makes sand castings and knew nothing about Six Sigma. I was just an engineer on assignment from a different division. I got friendly with the plant managers, whose help I needed anyway to get my job done.  This became a secondary assignment. In this process, the sand is literally shaken off and then the castings are blasted to remove any remaining adhering sand.  Then they are shipped to the machining plants.  The adhering sand that could not removed after the blasting operation was a problem for the machining plant.  The foundry had a policy of inspecting and diverting the castings for a second go, but not a third go. Believe me, it was only about 1% rejects (after the second go) but the plant manager wanted to achieve that, or better, in the first go.  Many complex engineering factors had to be addressed before a solution could be found. I remembered this when I wrote the defect equation down, like I did. That’s all I can tell you right now.

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    #104512

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Charmed,
    I am familiar with the process – we used to manufacture image setter drums the same way, then bolt them together and bore them and then grind them to within 10 microns of form.
    Have you ever encountered replication? (Moglish? – granite powder in a polymer resin?)
    Cheers,
    Andy
     

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    #104513

    Peppe
    Participant

    Thanks Andy, it was solved (past experience) try to guess how ? Introducing again the inspection for the right time we drive supplier to improve and putting under auditing the supplier processes. At least I explaned them, that they had just forget the M in DMAIC process….
    So, we had also indication on how to improve the weakness of our transfer of technologies…
    Rgs, Peppe

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    #104514

    Peppe
    Participant

    Charmed, apologies, but I don’t understand the relation of this example with your previous post about defects in and out. What you reported is a normal improvment activity along production flow when you found a defect, but at least, you did just an improvemnt of process in first step of production. It’s correct ? Rgs, Peppe

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    #104515

    Charmed
    Participant

    Dear Andy U:  No practical experience there. Rgs.

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    #104518

    Charmed
    Participant

    Hi Peppe:  I am just looking at the example (see reply to Andy U) where a defective enters the process, the defect is then cured, or removed, as the defective goes through the process. It is just a different way of thinking. Yes, it is improvement like you say, but in a different way, because we start with a defective. I thought about it only after the equation I wrote Defects In = Defects Out + Defects Made. There is a reduction of defects. There is some defects in, still some defects out, but defects made < 0.  Rgs.

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