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is six sigma really a quality function?

Six Sigma – iSixSigma Forums Old Forums General is six sigma really a quality function?

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  • #39096

    Savage
    Participant

    Does anybody else have a problem with lumping six sigma into the quality group? I mean everywhere i go six sigma is “managed” by quality. I understand that the method has roots in quality but i believe it has evolved past the simple heading of “quality”. It seems to me that if it was managed by manufacturing then companies would be much less likely to have resistance. I know some companies have it integrated at all levels and departments but I doubt that is the majority.
    any thoughts or experiences?

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    #118147

    Mr IAM
    Participant

    We had a lot of benefit in a manufacturing organization by having Six Sigma led under the COO, and even the CFO.  We never tried it under the VP of Quality because they didn’t have span of control.  Having said that, I think it can work under any leader provided there is executive support all the way around.

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    #118150

    Mikel
    Member

    Quality is a subset of Six Sigma – not the other way round.

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    #118152

    Habib
    Participant

    Where did you get that from? Six Sigma has been around for less than 20 years and you are trying to tell me that it embodies quality.
    Six sigma is great but please!!!!!!!!!!!

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    #118157

    Mikel
    Member

    What I’m telling you is that Quality, as practiced by most Quaility Professionals, does not embody Quality.
    Round out a potentially good Quality person with Six Sigma and Lean – then you have something worth having.

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    #118188

    Finance Jock
    Participant

    Lets face it. There is no standard definition of Six Sigma, its deployment,and where it resides within a organization.
    Some orgnizations use to solve key strategic and tactical issues others use it as a quality program others use it as eye candy for Wall st.
    Six Sigma is succumbing to its proclaimed nemesis, Variation.But don’t worry, consultants will keep cashing in on it as possible.

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    #118193

    Savage
    Participant

    “Six Sigma is succumbing to its proclaimed nemesis, Variation.”
    This is stated near perfect. 
    The last 3 jobs i have had ive seen various levels of BB’s.  Ive seen what i call “real” BB’s and bb’s that cant even effectively define a project.  Some of the best have no certification and some of the worst have “impressive” certification. 
    matt  

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    #118199

    Peppe
    Participant

    Well said Matt. Six Sigma is just a Project Management that have organized the use of existing tools from Quality and Statistics.
    Rgs, Peppe

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    #118235

    Solo
    Member

    Habib,
    Stan is correct!  Most Quality Professionals concentrate on defect detection rather than defect prevention and therefore may deliver quality product, however the real benefit for any business is in producing quality product to begin with.
    -Solo

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    #118313

    Quality practitioner
    Participant

    How is Quality practiced by MOST Quality professionals that it does not embody Quality?  You mean that the Quality that most of us engage in is not really QUALITY? How can I tell what Quality really is…..?

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    #118316

    Jacky
    Participant

    i

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    #118318

    Bhasin
    Participant

    I am new to six sigma and this is my first post to any six sigma discussion forum.
    What I feel that six sigma is not a quality function, but it is a methodology by which using breakthrough improvements we can improve our processes and show sustain reduction in cost(sometimes) and high profits(which offcourse is out motto while providing better quality)so SIX SIGMA is not a quality fucntion as it can also be implemented by a person who does’nt know QA or it’s jargons.
    Waitinmg for responses for this thread a well.
    Regards,
    Navin Malhotra
    Patni Comp Sys

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    #118319

    Mandalia
    Member

    Absolutely Navin,
     
    I see Six Sigma as great methodology where its DMAIC structure give very comprehensively thought and statistically valid solutions. Most importantly, solutions which can be sustained long term. In the begining of any project, during Define & Measure phase where process owners do the brainstorming on probable root cause of problem, is I think is a very critical step. Thats where the role of Six Sigma practitioner becomes very important.
     
    Six Sigma culture has to be nurtured at all levels and areas of corporate function and it should be lead by VP or MD of the business.
     
    Thanks & Regards,
    Sachin

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    #118339

    Mikel
    Member

    You have correctly understood what I mean. And you may note that hardly anyone took offense which I think means they understood.
    How can you tell what Quality really is? – Ask someone who really knows Six Sigma.

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    #118346

    Obiwan
    Participant

    An interesting question…as is evidenced by the responses to date.  Is Six Sigma a part of a Quality program?  I would argue that it is most definitely part of a quality program. 
    Can it stand alone outside the quality program?  That is an entirely different question.  I would argue that even Six Sigma needs other elements from the world of quality to be effective.  It is interesting that everyone has jumped on the bandwagon of Six Sigma…and now it is superior to plain old Quality, when it takes 90% (or more) of its tools, methods, programs, etc. from the world of Quality!
    Now, before everyone jumps up and down, let me say that I believe Six Sigma is currently the single BEST improvement program (process, project, substitute your “pro” word in here) in existence.  Period.  Is it better than TQM as an improvement program, you betcha!  Is it better than quality circles?  Without a doubt.  But, is it a total program?  I have my doubts.
    For a total program, I believe that, for the circle to be full, you need three elements to a (for giggles, let’s call it a quality program) quality program.  First, you need a robust planning system…one that not only look forward, but has a solid feedback mechanism to show you if you are proceeding in the right direction.  Second, a very good stabilization program…that extends BEYOND the use of simple control plans (if the other elements are in place, ISO 9000 and its derivatives make a good control structure).  Finally, the best improvement process…currently, this is Six Sigma combined with Lean.  IF (and those are two BIG letters) you do this all correctly, then you have a robust management system at your company.  And, btw, my thoughts are based on those theories and beliefs espoused by Joe Juran and his quality trilogy (I think he knows what he is talking about!).  My thoughts also are shaped by the teachings of W. Edwards Deming (again, a knowledgeable fellow I think! ;-)
    Now, the original question was: do you lump your Six Sigma in with your quality group?  I think that, yes, you lump them together…what do you call it?  As long as it is done right, who cares?  Quality/Six Sigma/Lean/ISO/Manufacturing/Risk/etc.  Call it what you will, but you must have ALL of the elements to be successful.
    Interested to see the feedback!
    Obiwan

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    #118914

    MR WHIZLABS
    Participant

    “Quality is a subset of Six Sigma – not the other way round.” No way.Six sigma is, was and will remain a quality model.What came earlier stan, Six sigma or quality??Thanks and RegardsAnshul Juneja

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    #118915

    MR WHIZLABS
    Participant

    Well Said obivanThanks and RegardsAnshul Juneja

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    #118916

    OK Mr. Wizlabs .. how do you explain Lean? Is Lean a subset of Six Sigma?
    No Six Sigma and Lean (TPS) are subsets of Quality. So there ..!!!!

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    #118920

    Mikel
    Member

    Still waiting for Quality to happen.
    Yes the Quality function is inhabitied by a few good people and always has been; but for the most part it is inhabitied by people who institute the illusion of control.

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    #118921

    Mikel
    Member

    Can you explain what Quality means at Whizlabs?

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    #118922

    Deanb
    Participant

    Stan,
    I normally agree with your posts, but on this one “Quality is a subset of Six-Sigma-not the other way around,” I must break ranks. I see it as technically incorrect, irrelevant and self serving.
    Technically, for years the quality profession has actively campaigned to make quality everybody’s job (not just the quality dept). Hence, putting 6s under Ops could itself be viewed as a quality concept.
    Be careful of false and irrelevant comparisons. Comparing an aggressive (and cross-functional) improvement initiative like 6s with a quality department which may be saddled with oodles of ISO, Control, Inspection, and Product Quality functions may not be a valid or fair comparison.  Often quality depts want to do more prevention, but their organizations “keep them down.”  Some day these same forces will probably “keep 6s down” too. Hence, taking a cheap shot at quality misses the point that what affects quality will probably affect 6s as well.
    Quality has spawned, embraced, and promoted 6s as a son, but 6s has not always treated its Q parent with the same family spirit. Some 6s practitioners have found it too convenient to elevate themselves at the unfair expense of quality practitioners. This is self serving, ugly, and unbecoming conduct (the dark side of human nature) which resembles negative competition among individuals and tribes more than 6s. 
    This seems to be changing however. As 6s matures out of its adolescent stage it is embracing traditional quality concepts more and more, not because of family love, but out of logical necessity. Except for your post, I have honestly not seen a negative comment towards quality from a 6s practitioner for a good while. The initial low response rate to your post does not necessarily imply agreement. Folks may just be ignoring it.   

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    #118924

    MR WHIZLABS
    Participant

    And next time onwards “Apply six sigma to your own self” i.e. rate your replies for there sigma level. Before you go out challege Thanks and Regards

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    #118925

    MR WHIZLABS
    Participant

    You already have anwered your questionsDo you have this habbit of anwering your own questions?Thanks and Regards

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    #118926

    Mikel
    Member

    I am not negative about Quality – just the majority of those who inhabit the function.
    Please explain how my post is self serving.
    I never worry about response rate to my posts, the data is with me.

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    #118928

    Mikel
    Member

    Mr. Whizboy,
    Let’s see – Whizlabs – you do urine samples, right?
    I saw your site and I see your posts and it’s clear you are just trying to drive traffic to your business’s site.
    Looking at your site does not answer the question of what does YOUR quality function mean in this enterprise.
    And your advice of applying six sigma to myself assumes you have a clue what six sigma is – prove it. I don’t think you do. Just trying to promote your business.

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    #118929

    Mikel
    Member

    Hey Whizboy – you are attacking Andy U?
    What kind of idiot are you?
    Answer – a quality idiot that thinks they know things they don’t (whoops – I answered my own question)

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    #118931

    MR WHIZLABS
    Participant

    This is something that is expected when a person faces reality. Look at you, the way ur responding when faced with criticism.
    Well thats my signature, I have no need to promote my site. The moment u type certification in google u will see whizlabs. Moreover we have a seperate dept to do promotions, not quality deptt.
    Bugger off and learn to behave.
    What the hell are moderators in this forum doing, Sleeping HAH!!!!!!!!

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    #118932

    Anshul
    Participant

    Stan I have been a silent observer on isigma and I like the site very much. I have seen you fight with ppl who don’t agree with your opinion.
    DO YOU KNOW WHAT A DISCUSSION FORUM MEANS.??
    Its not for fighting.
    Well I am off it.
    I am not replying to any off your shit from now on.
    I have better things to do.
    Well I pity the place you work for cause you find so much time to fight on a discussion forum.
    HAH thats the last thing i have time for
    So bye
     

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    #118933

    Mikel
    Member

    Hey Whizboy, now you are slamming the people who maintain this site.
    Pretty typical of a quality lackey who thinks they know everything.
    Face reality yourself – tell us what Quality means in your job and tell what you actually know about Six Sigma.

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    #118936

    Anshul
    Participant

    I don’t offer free knowlege to dumbs like you

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    #118938

    Mikel
    Member

    Hey Whizboy – I, for one, will not miss you.
    You need to learn that people discuss in different ways. You state things as fact that you probably have no knowledge of and then have a hissy fit when challanged.
    Then you take a swing at Andy U and the moderators. You are the one who is intolerant.
    I just smoke out the pretenders on this site and occasionally I am wrong. When I figure that out, I back off. Let us know what you actually know and the rest of the folks on here will let you know if you are right.
    By the way, you don’t know that this is my full time job? I get BIG pay for driving traffic to the site and extra for running off the idiots. I got seven figures already this year and I suspect I’ll get that bonus again today – thank you for your help.

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    #118942

    I have many habits – some good and some bad. Answering my own questions and questioning my own answers is one of the good ones.
    I had hoped that you would follow my logic …which was a bad assumption on my part and one of my bad habits :-)
    Good luck in your quality endeavours!
    Andy

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    #118947

    Deanb
    Participant

    Stan,
    Are you negative about the people (individually or collectively) in the quality function, or the functional role they often are required to play in the organization?
    The latter I can understand, as all functional areas of an organization often find themselves “trapped” within their function, and “limited” in what they can do. This is an organizational problem, not a reflection on the individuals. Getting individual and org causes twisted is a common error that all of us have been guilty of from time to time.
    If the former is what you meant, that is you think most individuals in the function are deficient or incapable, I see this view as self-serving for 2 reasons.
    First, 6s is not a functional department, and is not constrained like other functions. Instead, 6s is cross-functional by nature and is a priviliged role requiring some degree of managerial selection and support. Using this privileged non-functional position to “put-down” a lesser privileged, functional  position as not being “up to par with the privileged position” is an unfair comparison with potentially abusive intent, such as elevating onself at another’s expense, which is what most “put-downs” are used for. Using an elevated position to put down others in lesser positions is a form of abusive ad-hominem in logic, is not the quality way, and should not be the 6s way either. If this is what you meant Stan, logic is not with you, regardless of the data you think you have. Data alone does not necessarily make one right.
    Second, the higher role of cross functional improvement should be to equalize the importance of people in the team, not to elevate a few at the expense of others. Such talk is anti-organizational improvement and anti-culture building in my view. I hope your meant the latter view.

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    #118949

    Dayton
    Member

    I visited your web site.  In your relatively small organization, what’s a Quality Analyst do?
     
    In my GiantMedicalProducts corporation a Quality Analyst is someone who is entry level coming to the position either very new to the work force or otherwise lacking the skills to be immediately placed higher.  Not that I’m at all criticizing getting in and learning a trade as you make a contribution in a relatively task oriented manner to the corporation.
     
    It does surprise me though that you’d feel qualified or compelled to attack people who, if you approached differently, could give you information and insights that could aid your subject matter comprehension and potentially your career advancement.
     
    Nonetheless, I am with your career and professional advancement in mind going to contact Whizlabs management, send them copies of your isixsigma communications, and suggest a developmental path for you.  You have greatly aided their company advertising and I’m certain they will be appreciative.  No need to thank me now, I’m here to help and I always believe that what goes around comes around.  Best of luck.
     Vinny   

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    #118950

    Mikel
    Member

    Dean,
    Thank you for taking the time to write that. I appreciate it. I am criticising the achieved role of the Quality function.
    The original question could be used to argue putting a functioning Six Sigma program under a non functioning QA department.
    Simply put, if QA was really doing the job of QA, there would be no need for Lean and SS programs in that enterprise.

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    #118951

    Mikel
    Member

    Don’t forget to ask for a discount on the urine screening that we will need for future experiments.
    Mike Carnell suggested an experiment some years ago to do drug screening and correlate the results to job success to make sure which population we wished to put out the door. Whizlabs, with a good pricing strategy, could help us make that long ago articulated experiment a reality.

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    #118952

    BBMoore
    Participant

    In my experience most practitioners of most diciplines are a little less than what you would expect at their jobs, unfortunately.  I think this is the point you were making about Quality – not that it was bad in itself, but that most people are not producing what that word really means…which I agree with 100%
    I believe that the goal of 6s should be to reduce the need to even have a QA group because you have eliminated defects before they happen.  This is unrealistic in the real world because perfection is never really achieved, but should still be the goal.
    As such, doesn’t that make 6s the definition of what Quality should REALLY be instead of what it currently is….not necessarily that Quality is a subset of 6s?  Just a thought…..
     

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    #118953

    BBMoore,
    I agree with your position …
    I once worked for a company that had no incoming inspection. When I asked a person why is there was no incoming inspection. They told me that quality was the responsibility of the supplier.
    My reply was that while this is a correct principle, it is not practical one. After all, would you want to eat in a restaurant where the staff didn’t check the salad vegatables were washed? (By the way, this is one of the principles of Toyota’s process-self assurance – continuing to check even if it is ‘probably’ OK.) Now some say this is a waste of money – but how much more money is lost when its wrong and undetected?
    There is a also well-known Japanese comment that you can’t make chicken soup out of chicken s**t.
    After we instituted our incoming inspection, we found out that approx. 60% of our components were manufactured to the wrong drawing, and all the people that fought against it later claimed credit for it. Now doesn’t that ring a bell …
    Regards,
    Andy

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    #118955

    JWR
    Participant

    reminds me of something my grandmother used to tell me. and she was very wise.
    “ALL things in moderation.”
    consider that. 6s is great, but not the answer to all ?s.
    Good reply Obiwan!

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    #118957

    Jim W.
    Participant

    I originally came from GE Aircraft and the experience there was that it grew from programs like Actiion Workout, TQM and TPM that were the traditional pervue of QC. There are several case studies that indicate this policy has created deployment and sustainability issues. If Six Sigma is to be a “business” system it must report as a Cost Center and be measured the same as manufacturing, sales, purchasing etc…, another words it needs to carry it’s own weight and show, financially, that it benefits the operation. See case studies on Diversified Paper, W.R. Grace. Also Roger Hoerl has several articles and books that address this question.
    Hope this helps.
    Jim

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    #118958

    Deanb
    Participant

    The relevant question ought to be “how can 6s initiatives and the Quality Dept’s functional roles can both be integrated and elevated in their effectiveness?”
    Like asking a nutritionist which is more important, breathable air or drinkable water? This is a leading question, leading anyone who answers “air or water” into a falsity. Just asking if 6s ought to rein over Quality or vice versa may simply be the wrong question to ask in the first place. Like air and water, both are essential in their required proportions, and wherever both can best meet their requirements in any given organization is where either ought to be managed.  

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    #118968

    Dayton
    Member

    Great news along two fronts, I contacted Whizlabs senior management and they were very receptive to creating a developmental plan for Mr. Anshul Juneja.  It’s a little complicated, involves his finding work with one of their direct competitors and begins rather quickly – but his future professional development is expected to move forward at a much more accelerated pace.
     
    Plus, and the forum will really appreciate this, Whizlabs has agreed to an immediate blanket purchase order for all-future isixsigma forum urine testing.   Six Sigma Tom will pool all urine samples, and a single aggregate pooled sample provided Whizlabs.   Further sample consolidation and analytical process streamlining will be provided by Titanium.  
     
    Again, it’s a pleasure to participate in such a focused and synergistic endeavor working with Six Sigma professionals toward common goals.  
     
    Oh, and Six Sigma Tom, Phil has agreed to using old Home Depot paint cans for urine collection and as shipping containers.   It seems that some of Phil’s warehouse boys have been doing some semblance of this already with many of the procedures and hands on training already in place.
     Vinny

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    #118977

    Guillermo
    Participant

    I totally agree with that statement.  Quality product is a result of Six Sigma.  I have been in both situations where the program was under the operations manager and then switched to the quality manager in a plant setting.  More things got accomplished under the operations manager.

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    #118985

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    You are improving. He didn’t call you unprofessional.
    I don’t get this preoccupation with the time someone spends on the forum. Unless someone is sending me a check that I am unaware of what business is it of theirs. I guess I could be productively watching television.

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    #118992

    RK
    Member

    Jim W.
    Where can I find the articles written by Roger Hoerl?
    I have read his books. Thanks.
    RK

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    #119010

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Obiwan,
     “I would argue that even Six Sigma needs other elements from the world of quality to be effective.”
    That would be a difficult position to defend. Allied Signal Automotive deployed Six Sigma under Jim Lambert who was the VP of Manufacturing. One of the operations I had was Turbo Chargers. The Torrance facility BB’s reported into QA and it floundered until it was moved to Operations. The Mexicali guys reported to the Plant Manager (both facilities) and it took off like a rocket and the rest of Automotive struggled to catch up with them.
    The following year at GE we (consultants) reported to Gary Reiner, the CIO. He had responsibility for the deployment and I believe he still does. I believe the direction from Corporate was that nobody from QA would be a BB for the first year.
    Both deployments went pretty well.
    Who you put in charge sends a strong message to the organization. If you use your “most talented people” (Jack Welch) the organization reads that as “it is important.” If it reports to a slug nobody will pay attention. The organization does know who the slugs are.
    Six Sigma can be enhanced if there is an effective quality system in place. Six Sigma can be enhanced if it is done with Lean. Six Sigma can be enhanced if it is done with a good ABC system. They can all be done without the other. Why would we believe that Six Sigma is a subset of quality? Somewhere along the line QA people got the idea that they own things like statistical methods? Who decided that?
    How many times have we seen the QA department teching the rest of the facility tools and never actually using them – like they had devine guidance? How many times have you seen a QA person shut a line down and walk away rather than get involved in fixing the issue? How many times (on this forum alone) have you see the useless pontification of some totally useless point/ philosophy? As a profession we have dug a pretty big hole for ourselves. There have been the outstanding people like Deming and Juran but at the end of the day they got where they were by delivering a contribution to the organization. That does not make every QA organization valuable.
     Everyone likes to use saying like “break your paradigms” but that seems to a little difficult. Basically an organization has a culture and a structure that tends to be indigenous. The people who own that structure decide what works best for the organization. There is no law that says one needs to be a subset of the other. There are only effective organizations and ineffective organizations. The effective organizations live by their own rules because they understand what it takes to make the organization work.
    Just my opinion.
    Regards

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    #119022

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Jim,
    You need to talk to Jeff Heslop. He was there (and did the training for Wave I at GEAE). It built on the culture that was inplace from those programs (CAP was probably as large a contributor as any) – they certainly accelerated the acceptance but it did not grow out of them.
    Just my opinion.
    Good luck

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    #119033

    Markert
    Participant

    Vinny;
    Hummmmmm…..I didn’t understand why the paint I purchased didn’t get the coverage I indicated on the label, why it didn’t dry well, and why the dog is always going crazy. You may be on to something with the idea that the boys may need some re-training in the proper handling of product.
    I.P. Frequently, who is apparently Whizlabs clinical logistics manager would like to schedule the delivery of the WhizBuckets to their facility. Would Mrs. Vinny mind if you borrowed her Lexus and loaded the WhizBuckets in the backseat and dropped them off sometime?
    Thanks for being a great team member. There is no I in team!

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    #119039

    Dayton
    Member

    Phil,
     
    Shouldn’t be a problem.  Now that both of our own little Whizbuckets are in school the previously Whizbucket christened back seats in Mama Vinny’s LuxoLexis have a bit of spare time available for forum hauling. 
     
    Have your boys wash themselves up and hose down (with water) the outside of the paint can (good thing we’ve pooled the samples and only need one container, and the idea even with the pooled sample is a small sample, approximately ½ liter is sufficient, versus the entire 55 gallon drum that Six Sigma Tom and Titanium will be maintaining behind the Home Depot near the loading ramp) and I’ll pick the sample up every other Tuesday in the PM before closing.  
     
    Sounds like a plan. Glad to help. Keep saving the empty paint cans and hiring the disadvantaged and we’re good to go.
     Vinny

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    #119044

    Anshul
    Participant

    Vinny
    Go ahead, I am eager for that. Cause I head the quality deptt here.
    Best of luck to you for your endevour.
    In case you need some emails id do let me know
    Moreover now i know ppl on isigma have loads of time.
    LOLZ

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    #119045

    Cravens
    Participant

    I thought you were going away.

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    #119058

    Mikel
    Member

    Careful Vinny, this guy is the head of the Quality Department. You don’t want to mess with that type of power.
    What do you think the head of QA does at a place that sell PMI certifications. Check the printing of the certificates for color matching?

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    #119062

    Dayton
    Member

    Sorry, I didn’t realize I was dealing with a departmental leader.   I wrongly assumed just because you don’t spell well, get emotional and don’t link your words together in cogent argument that you were neither well educated nor proficient in your field.   But as QA leader you’re probably one of those quantitative guys eschewing text and going for the numbers.   I understand, being numerically inclined also. 
     
    I also wrongly assumed that just because you were not on your company’s web site as part of the management team along with Purvesh Sharma, Operations Director, Pradeep Chopra, Business Development Director, Kapil Nakra, Technical Director, that you were not senior management.  But they probably couldn’t list the entire senior team.   
     
    My comments regarding having contacted the Whizbang senior team regarding your development were really regarding my having contacted Purvesh and Pradeep – both of whom have had issues with you in the past and welcomed input.   Kapil was somewhat neutral regarding you and just didn’t want to get involved, something about your temper and why get involved if the “developmental plan” was about to kick in.
     
    Who knew that with functional “directors” listed on the web site as company leaders that there was another tier of “departmental managers” who were also senior management for the company.   Well ya live and learn.
     
    Welcome to the forum.  It’s good to have senior management participating in what’s frequently thought of as a technical forum.  I look forward to your being able to offer us the perspective from the other side of the coin – senior management.   Now we can get a balanced picture with you representing C-level management and the rest of us finally getting a chance to ask the big guys “why?”   
     Vinny

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    #119117

    Adam L Bowden
    Participant

    Vinny,
    that’s going to leave a scar !!    :-0
    Regards,
    Adam

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    #119118

    Savage
    Participant

    wow…i’m happy to see that this thread has lasted.  It’s even fairly entertaining.
    I’m so remedial that most of my threads fizzle out like a bad fart in two responses.  I must be getting better!
     

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    #119119

    Dayton
    Member

    Adam,
     
    Scars??..nahhh…..we’re all just good natured kidders around here.   
     
    Nothing but a bit of friendly teasing amongst cohorts intended besides Anshul’s demonstrated his willingness and ability to square off and rope a dope, float like a butterfly and sting like a bee, punch and counter-punch, bob and weave (and Anshul all that bob and weaving stuff is really describing boxing in a boxing match, like Muhammad Ali the boxer, it has nothing to do with textiles, linens and looms so don’t get all goofy if your family are weavers – it had nothing to do with that, they are probably very nice weavers, and Lord knows I look great in linen, so again no harm intended).  
     
    Plus Anshul should be commended for bringing Whizlabs into the forum.
     Vinny

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    #119121

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    matt,
    Congrtulations! As John Lupienski used to tell me “Once is random chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is a trend.” (Remember John always tells you everything three times.)
    Now see if you can do it as repeatably as Darth, Vinny, Phil and Stan.
    Regards

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    #119123

    Obiwan
    Participant

    Senor Carnell!
    I would not disagree that the deployment location matters little…so long as “important” people are leading (and I will live the important to the organization to decide) it and the CEO is demonstrating the desire to really make it work.
    My suggestions are more aimed at the fact that Six Sigma alone is not a panacea.  Your comment “somewhere along the lineQA people got the idea that they own things like statistical methods” was not discussed any where in my response.  And the same argument could be used on the Six Sigma world as well.  I have met more than my share of Six Sigma “professionals” that have no comprehension of what came before Six Sigma.  All of your arguments could be turned on Six Sigma as well as quality.  I do not refute either of them.
    My view is simple…there are no panaceas in this world.  Would love to find one however!  Think of the money we could make!  I agree with your last paragraph…however, I have experienced more “superiority” coming from Six Sigma pro’s versus quality pro’s.
    Just my $.02

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    #119124

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Obiwan,
    This sounds like a friend from Punta Cana?
    I wasn’t trying to make my post confrontational and you are correct you did not say the tools belonged to the QA people. I was really just putting my point of view out there and got a little wound up.
    For some reason people seem to have this desire for the “instant pudding” formula. I can’t remember doing a deployment the same way twice. The material never changes but the infrastructure does. It has to fit the company.
    They also seem to need this heirarchy thing, TQM begat Six Sigma, Quality begat Six Sigma, Ford begat TPS, etc. which at the end of the day is basic pontification.
    Regards

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    #119128

    An Academic Sophisticate
    Participant

    Matt, to help you in future posts:

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    #119139

    Obiwan
    Participant

    Senor Carnell
    No, not from Punta Cana…from someplace closer…Charlotte, NC!
    I, too, did not mean confrontation, but I get wound up too…particularly with some of our Six Sigma brethren that believe it to be a panacea.  I now understand that you have a much broader perspective…hopefully, some friendship (and definitely kinship) will develop.
    I do believe that there is a “series of begats.”  And I believe that they continue…I am fascinated by our NEXT panacea (call it…something!).  The next improvement on improvement and stabilization technologies.
    Who will make the mint off it!
    See ya
    Obiwan (only 12 more days to the next great Star Wars movie!)

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    #119141

    Darth
    Participant

    Hey Carnell and Obiwan,
    Stop falling over each other and apologizing.  You are both big boys and can take the heat.  Be confrontational, be obnoxious, insult each other, you can take it.  I, on the other hand, am sensitive and non-confrontational and must be dealt with kid gloves. 
    Obi, while you might win this one in the upcoming flick, I will eventually kick  your butt.  Of course in the end, the evil emperor, Darth Jones, will get me…and he did.  Only one standing in the end is my short son Luke from Delta and hot daughter Melissa, whoops I mean Leia. 
    May the Schwartz be with with you.

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    #119145

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Obiwan,
    Charlotte – very nice place. Great race track.
    Unfortunately SS has been sold as a panacea. It was also sold as a panacea repeatedly in the late 90’s by some people who had the opportunity to be the zeitgeist but chose to be robber barons instead. Now they are struggling to get back in the boat.
    I do not believe it is a panacea. I will run the risk of spam here but, the reason we wrote “Leaning into Six Sigma” was because at that time people were constantly being told they had to make a choice between Six Sigma or Lean. We didn’t buy it – I can from Motorola where we did both, Barbara and I worked International Truck where we did both and Chuck and Barbara worked Ingersol Dresser Pump where they did both. We actually figured it out while Michael George was still turning up his nose at the Six Sigma barbarians at his gate. Actually there isn’t anything to figure out – it is common sense.
    I do believe there may be some begats but spending time on them is NVA. If you went to the mountain and came down with stone tablets that defined who begat who nothing would be different in the morning. I see a lot of academic types with a carrer built around TQM stuggling to stay relevant in a Six Sigma world (customers are defining the market). If they lose their pedigree they may actually have to get their butt out there and do something to prove some level of proficiency at SS before anyone of any substance will take them seriously. 
    Check out how many times there is a post by some kid from India taking a TQM class and has been assigned the infamous TQM vs. SS comparison by the proffessor of the TQM class. Guess how the comparison turns out? In a couple years I expect to see this definative paper on the difference between the two that says “there have been over 1000 papers on the differences between TQM and SS. They have unanimously concluded there is no difference.” Who’d have guessed?
    I was told in January 1997 by some would be zeitgeists that they were killing Six Sigma off in a year (Stan was there and I am sure he remembers this – it was a few minutes before we got thrown out of the house and RO’B was sent scrambling to keep us in camp one more year). Well, here we are. I don’t know what is next – but there is always a market for results regardless what you call it. I remember the quote from a post on this site a few years ago (I use it in Process Owner training because you just can’t believe this guy wrote it down and then hit post):
    “We finished Continuous Improvement a couple years ago. We are looking for the next big thing.”
    Sorry for the long rambling response.
    Happy Mothers Day.
    Mahalo,
    Mike

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    #119146

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Darth,
    Just picking battles. I thought it was PT at first. I assume from the Charlotte background you two may share the BOA heritage?
    Sensitive and non-confrontational – what happened? Here is an opportunity to engage my TQM bretheran “What changed?” – doesn’t that sound very enlightened? Obviously whatever changed caused it.
    Happy Mothers Day.
    Regards,
    Mike

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    #119148

    Spock
    Member

    Hi Mike,
    Your post was very interesting and I can relate to the problem TQM academics are now facing. Here on Vulcan we finished CI a few thousand years ago and moved on to the next big one; we call it Shatnering. Shatnering is based around getting a lucky break and then milking it until the next lucky break comes along. Not quite like the PDSA/PDCA or DMAIC cycles. Why? We have found that the reliance on luck means that you can eliminate the P,D and S/C elements and just ‘Act’. We have also found a positive correlation between achieving frequent lucky breaks and the ability to act badly.
    We are now establishing a system for the next big thing, the evolution of Shatnering; ‘Stewarting’. In this system we hope to develop more dependence on achieving success through arrogance and are testing for a correlation between the level of success through arrogance and the ability to act in a Shakespearean manner at all times especially when not necessary. 
    Will keep you emotional earthlings up-to-date with our findings.
    LLAP
    Spock

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    #119157

    Anshul
    Participant

    Vinny,
    I really like your ability to knit stories. Well, why don’t you try fiction? Seriously dude you will be a smashing hit there.
    By the way which organisation do you work for? I rarely get this much time to post on isixsigma. To be honest, I doubt if you have a job.
    Just a thought
    Anshul
     

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    #119167

    Mikel
    Member

    Hey Whizboy,
    You clearly have more time to post than you need.
    Tell us about your knowledge of Quality and Six Sigma and people will either fall off their chairs laughing or will start to respect your input and engage in a different conversation with you.

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    #119168

    Dayton
    Member

    Opps… you got me.  I said too much and even using a forum ID nom de plum you cleverly triangulated information provided coupling that with both astute inductive and deductive logic and ID’d me.  
     
    You’re right, I just sit here on the couch with mom and we spin yarns as we spin yarn.  But I’m looking for work – sort of.   Just hoping that something comes up.  
     
    I have no skills, can’t write a cohesive thought, am critical of others, and don’t mind handling stained lab reports attached to urine sample bottles.  
     
    Say…. are there any openings at Whizlabs?   I read somewhere that your QA staff is in overhaul.   I think I’d fit in…
     Vinny    

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