Lean

SS detects variation (mainly),while Lean-SS detects  waste (7  types  of  waste).SS is  a  process improvement  methodology,using  the  DMAIC concept as  a  project  management style.Lean is  focusing  mainly  on  flexibility,speed & VA steps,utilizing  some Kaizen  concepts such  as 5Ss,Kaizen  Blits,TPM….etc.The  best  solution  is  to  apply  Lean-SS?Good  Luck 

Lean surface up problem
SS kill the problem

My view is lean exposes weakest link in the supply chain and Six Sigma fixs those imperfect quality link.

Variation covers both time and process variation.Cycle time fluctuation isn’t a time variation? Process variation is not a waste?According to your vague definition, I can use lean to solve process variation and six sigma to solve cycle time fluctuation.

I can knock a nail into a plain wood with my shoe heel. It’s a right tool I use?

Isn’t variation caused by some form of waste?

No .Waste is  caused  mainly by NVA that  can  be  eliminated  through  Lean.Variation  is  caused  mainly by lack QC,it  can  be  diagnosed through high (fluctuated) SD.SS can  deal  with  this  problem.  

Mike
I totally agree with you.
Monk

Mike,
For the TPS model, you should add an additional step, jidoka or fool proofing would be the other pillar.  Without it you end up with the JIT craze from the 80’s & 90’s and the TPS roof will fall on itself.
JWDT

Thank you.

Expose a free green belt and toolkit scam is already a great service to isigma.com community.

It’s not a strange happening if I see more consultants call themselves as sensei. I just hope they understand the real meaning of sensei. :-(

Marlon,
My understanding is Sensei means ‘teacher’ or ‘mentor’ – not ‘expert’ as claimed by these guys.
When I pointed out replacing a target with a goal is just semantics, they cancelled my hotel booking, and I had to miss the next day’s seminar  :-)
Andy

Thank You.Is  it  similar  to MBB or  what?

Perhaps their implication is wrong – after all Orang_Utan also noticed the obvious deficiency …

Who has time to actually learn the history of this stuff?  I mean, all you really need is eight days in a classroom and then take a test and. . . . presto chango, you’re a black belt!  Nothing could be easier.
As for the issue of control limits not equaling probabilitiy limits . .   Lots of luck.  Been there, tried that.  People can’t seem to be able to get beyond the 68/95/99 stuff.  I believe Shewhart did say that probablities were “associated” with control limits, but they had nothing to do with why he selected +/- 3.  It was an economical decision.

Bill,
What I meant was Shewhart was the genius behind Deming. After all, when management became uncomfortable with the idea that management is responsible for the ‘system,’ Deming changed ‘systematic cause’ to common to a number of processes.
To be honest, I could probably be described as a layman (idiotes) these days, so you’ll have to calrify your point for me. I’ve never regarded Control Limits as probability limits, but that is not in my favour because I’ve never given it much thought. I’ve always regarded CLs as ‘confidence intervals.’
Are confidence intervals the same as probability limits – I don’t know; I’m not familiar with the concept of a  probability limit :-)
Cheers,
Andy

Bravo !!  Economic limits. 
Perhaps you can explain it to the other SS ignoramuses here … if they understood the basics, there would be no 1.5 sigma shift, no 3.4 DPMO, no hypothesis tests and all the other SS rubbish.
 

Sorry there SS Shooter … I didn’t realise that you were one of the crowd who had woken up to how much rubbish is in SS  !!!
Harry and Reigle probably don’t care much now … I can imagine they spend their days laughing at the foolishness and gullibility of the masses, while counting their millions …

Andy
Thanks  for  the  explanation.Which “School” one  do  you  prefer?Or suggest  a  mixture of  both,please  elaborate 

Agree. A Japanese company I worked for gives line stop order to all first line operators and QA inspector. Amazing part is the plant MD/CEO has no authority to overide line-stop decisions until a short-term correction action(s) is in place and a long-term preventive action(s) is in futre action list. The line-stop is lifted only after internal customer is fully satisfied.UK people are so good to churn our all sorts of nonsense ISO and other standards in the past 50 years. A tangile gain for them is certification fees and consulting service charges.

In kanji, sensei is a honorable title for a respectable profession like teacher.Agree with you, sensei is someone with inside out in-depth knowledge and skill sets in their own field through decades of practising and learning.These consultants are considered outsiders to many fields, but calling themselves as sensei is insulting to “sensei” real meaning.

When tools like ANOVA is owned solely by Six Sigma?I remember clearly that prior to six sigma term is coined, IE students have to learned SPC, hypothesis, etc. stuffs.

I agree, there are only a few who deserve the title.

Please  elaborate  more……

Your personality does not make you a bad consultant. Sincerity, professionalism and your know-how are factors counted at the end  of the day.

And you are not one of them!

Nostalgia?  Hardly.  Too much to look forward to, don’t want to waste time pining over the past.   Looking back over the past to learn from it is not nostalgia in this case. . .   I would call it more of a state of reflective pondering to gain insights into the future, resultant from the nature of significant emotional event avoidance reflex syndrome.  “The future isn’t what it used to be anyway,” to quote a famous philosophizer (go get ’em, Yogi!). 
No, I was just informing Bill that past efforts have been made to tell others that control limits at +/- 3 std dev were not selected by Walter Shewhart because of probabilities.  The thread became a long back and forth debate, and all one need do is to read Shewhart and what he said about it.
Best regards

To find out more about the aim of a system and the System of Profound Knowledge, I suggest two books by Deming:  1) Out of the Crisis; and 2) The New Economics.  Without these two critical elements of knowledge of one’s business, it is like a ship without a rudder being controlled by the guys in the galley.  Incorrect information is garnered from improperly analyzed data, improper decisions are made, time and money are wasted, customers and jobs are lost . . .  It’s not a pretty scene, but one that is repeated over and over again due to methods still taught in the prestigous business schools, and by consultants who focus on short term tools and methods without any long term thinking and analysis. 
Deming used to say, “How could they know?  There was no one to teach them.”  I don’t think that’s true, now.  There have been plenty of teachers.  But, Deming would also say that knowledge only comes in from the outside and only by invitation.  The teachers are here and ready, but the invitations to really learn are very few and far between.  The drive for a short term, pain free fixes is still alive and well, unfortunately.

I personally don’t believe you can successfully implement Six Sigma Methodology without first applying the lean techniques.
During my training classes, I use the Titanic to explain the difference.  For instance, I show icebergs below the water surface with the Titanic approaching.  Lean comes in and lowers the water level (Basically cleans up and eliminates waste).  Once the water is lowered, the icebergs can be seen.  From there, Six Sigma comes in, attacks and eliminates the icebergs.  Make sense?
 

Already exposed a pseudo sensei in UK who is providing “free” green belt and toolkit. LOL

A “World-class Performance” lecture conducted by Oliver Wight consultants at my ex-company premises in 1993 was using sea water level as inventory anology.I can scan and share a few pages of its training slides if someone requests for them.The lecture topic is TPS and TQM integration under a similiar today’s lean six sigma approach. In nutshell, Michael George is not the first consultant in mooting out lean six sigma idea.The funny thing is some “sensei” grade consultants in UK are so high about such old idea. :-)

Japanese will teach you it’s better not drinking too much water. A good anology of over consumption in your troubled backyard.

This more than 13 years ago slide shall shutting off claim from those professed “sensei” in TBM and George group that lean six sigma is not their invention.

Excellent  Idea :should  open  a  new  business and  generate lot  of  money?

Agree

Please show  the  relevant  Link.Thanks

Obviously, you do not understand the copyrights law in the majority countries. Most copyrights law allows 5 to 10% duplication/photocopy work on any copyrighted materials for non-commercial or educational purpose. I also intentionally put a big cross on the slides to make them useless for commercial usage.

I think my posting with a link was deleted by moderator. Already lodge a complaint with Michael Marx on his forum moderator.

Orang_Utan,
As you know I greatly respect you and would not wish to contradict you, but I don’t see how this cartoon represents a Kanban.
It reminds me of a situation I encountered walking through the factory one day, all the Japanese guys started laughing and rolling around the aisle. When I asked what was so funny they pointed to a little sign which read Kanbam.
My friend looked at me and said:”How can they use something they don’t understand and can’t spell?
No I have no idea what Kanbam means, but to my mind this cartoon just indicated someone’s ignorance, as I’m sure you know what a Kanban is :-)
Cheers,
Andy

The consultants were HP retirees with hands-on experience in TPS. HP is among the first American company looking at TPS in early 80s. The consultant did not say kanban is a physical card hanging in the plant. The message is inventory is a horrible waste which can be reduced with JIT system.
Just be alerted not all Japanese are “sensei” in JIT like their counterparts in Toyota.
 

Orang_Utan,
Do you still have my email address? I’ve lost yours as I’ve had several PC crashes and not enough nounce to us a memory stick!
I have something that might interest you – in exchange for a good satay sauce recipe :-)
Cheers,
Andy

Glad to see that you’re so sad that you could cry. Because a century ago someone said that the world is so sad, it doesn’t even cry any more … I am glad to see that it is improving (with the help of Six Sigma that would be). And I am also glad that your world is simple: 2 + 2 = 4, and that is a simple truth.

Thank’s!

Are you crazy … 2+2 = 6
… just ask Harry !!!

Keep on arguing whether lean or six sigma is better is meaningless.
Chinese ex-paramount leader, Deng Xio Peng has a famous saying, “Regardless it is a white or black cat, as long as it can catch a mouse is a good cat”.

Mouse is sacred.  Very bad cat.

Agree:Sound “stupid” Logic (SSL):I  suggest  to  initiate this  new  trend for  those who  are  not  serious and  like to  make  fun:SSL??

You are wrong.  Six Sigma has a lot more than one blank mind … so if it comes to IQ, SS is leaner than lean.

New  Style:Simon’s hahahah