iSixSigma

Lean

Viewing 100 posts - 1 through 100 (of 143 total)
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  • #44898

    Boogaloo Stoo
    Participant

    Hello all,
    I am a newly qualified (not yet certified) Green Belt working for Network Rail (we provide the rail network for the train operators to run their trains on) in the UK .
    I have no prior experience of Six Sigma or other methodologies and wonder if anyone would enlighten me as to the differences between Six Sigma and Lean Six Sigma please? I understand lean uses tools like 5S’s but my training covered this without reference to Lean.
    Any information would be gratefully received.
    Thanks
    Boogaloo Stoo

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    #144815

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    SS detects variation (mainly),while Lean-SS detects  waste (7  types  of  waste).SS is  a  process improvement  methodology,using  the  DMAIC concept as  a  project  management style.Lean is  focusing  mainly  on  flexibility,speed & VA steps,utilizing  some Kaizen  concepts such  as 5Ss,Kaizen  Blits,TPM….etc.The  best  solution  is  to  apply  Lean-SS?Good  Luck 

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    #144817

    Boogaloo Stoo
    Participant

    Thanks Marlon,
    That leads me to believe that I’ve been taught Lean-SS under the SS banner.
    BS
     
     

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    #144823

    FL
    Participant

    Lean surface up problem
    SS kill the problem

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    #144826

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    Brief ,wise & impressive 

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    #144846

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    My view is lean exposes weakest link in the supply chain and Six Sigma fixs those imperfect quality link.

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    #144886

    Dr. Mikel Harry
    Member

    LEAN focuses on waste while Six Sigma on variation. It would be better to minimize the waste first before addressing the variation. If you want to attack both you can establish Lean Six Sigma.

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    #144892

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    Variation covers both time and process variation.Cycle time fluctuation isn’t a time variation? Process variation is not a waste?According to your vague definition, I can use lean to solve process variation and six sigma to solve cycle time fluctuation.

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    #144896

    Brit
    Participant

    Although it may not be the intended use – you can.  That is one reason why the two tools seem to work so well together – in my opinion.

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    #144900

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    I can knock a nail into a plain wood with my shoe heel. It’s a right tool I use?

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    #144901

    tottow
    Member

    Is that the best tool you have available?

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    #144929

    jtomac01
    Participant

    Isn’t variation caused by some form of waste?

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    #144930

    jtomac01
    Participant

    Isn’t variation caused by some form of waste?

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    #144941

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    No .Waste is  caused  mainly by NVA that  can  be  eliminated  through  Lean.Variation  is  caused  mainly by lack QC,it  can  be  diagnosed through high (fluctuated) SD.SS can  deal  with  this  problem.  

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    #144955

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Boogaloo,
    There isn’t any clear cut dividing line between the Lean and Six Sigma so you can say “I’m going to use Lean for this and Six Sigma for this.” It would be a complete waste of time. Each has tools that do certain things. When you understand the purpose of the tool you match it with the problem and use what makes sense.
    Believing that Six Sigma is variation reduction only is a huge mistake. That means we need some other methodology to shift a mean? By actual definition (Juran 1964: “Managerial Breakthrough”) using his diagram Breakthrough i.e. is dynamic change, shows it as a mean shift.
    I am not sure how people can even begin to draw a line between the two. TPS has 4 basic steps Workplace Organization>Standardized Work>Continuous Improvement>Kanban/JIT. The first two steps take out people induced noise but in Continuous Improvement it combines incremental and breakthrough improvement. There is nothing new about the tools working in conjunction with each other.
    Just my opinion.
    Good luck 

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    #144959

    Monk
    Participant

    Mike
    I totally agree with you.
    Monk

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    #144985

    Brit
    Participant

    You make a point, howeer.  Say I have a number of variables dealing with throughput, not quality, per se.  I want to see the relationship between the tools, maybe even predict future events.  ANOVA, regression, etc. might be a better avenue to take to understand how steps relate, rather than moving straight to a waste reduction.  It would be using a quality tool to deal with a flow problem.
    All I’m getting at it that we shouldn’t limit ourselves to the tools we use. Yes we should use the right tool, but it depends on the specific issue we are dealing with. 
    By the way, if I need to get the nail in the wood, I would rather my employees use a shoe than leave the nail out.  Results matter

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    #144993

    jtomac01
    Participant

    Mike,
    For the TPS model, you should add an additional step, jidoka or fool proofing would be the other pillar.  Without it you end up with the JIT craze from the 80’s & 90’s and the TPS roof will fall on itself.
    JWDT

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    #145006

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    JWDT,
    We have mistakeproofing (politically correct for foolproofing) as part of CI. There is a down side to Mistakeproofing in that the operators can become dependant on it so it isn’t necessarily my first choice.
    Regards

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    #145007

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Thank you.

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    #145019

    leaning
    Participant

    So why hasn’t it exposed you ?
    We know you are beyond repair …

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    #145048

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    Expose a free green belt and toolkit scam is already a great service to isigma.com community.

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    #145063

    Orang_Utan,
    According to this guy – http://www.lean-service.com/0-1.asp
    Six Sigma guys are a buch of ‘tool heads.’ His background is psychology and he has a ‘I did the tour’ knowledge f the the Toyota Production System, although he kind of claims to have studied under Deming and Tai-chi Ono.
    My impression is he’s styled himself on Deming and even uses sound bites like “throw it in the trash,’ or ‘bannish all targets!’
    I guess he doesn’t realise Shewhart was the real genious behind Deming’s work, and Deming even managed to screw some of it up, such as by changing assingnable to special ,and systemmatic (in the system) to common.
    So if you hear Parceval shouting ‘for whom does the Grail serve’ outside a Grail Castle, you know who it is …
    Cheers,
    Andy

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    #145076

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    It’s not a strange happening if I see more consultants call themselves as sensei. I just hope they understand the real meaning of sensei. :-(

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    #145090

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    Please  explain  it /Is  it  a  Japanese word?

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    #145108

    Marlon,
    My understanding is Sensei means ‘teacher’ or ‘mentor’ – not ‘expert’ as claimed by these guys.
    When I pointed out replacing a target with a goal is just semantics, they cancelled my hotel booking, and I had to miss the next day’s seminar  :-)
    Andy

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    #145111

    jtomac01
    Participant

    With the TBM & Shingijutsu consultants I have worked with, Sensei would be defined as “teacher” and or “mentor”.  They would also say it is implied that the Sensei is the “master” or “expert” in the methodology / application of the TPS system.

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    #145113

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    Thank You.Is  it  similar  to MBB or  what?

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    #145122

    jtomac01
    Participant

    Analagous, assuming the MBB has risen through the ranks and has learned all the individual tools & applications. 
    Most sensei’s started out as shopfloor engineers & worked their way up to Chief Engineer or equivalent (over the course of a career).  Japanese culture has a lot to do with this.  A lot of them understand every facet of an operation (e.g. all different forms of casting – in detail) from the work content through the engineering to the finances and the marketing of the product.

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    #145123

    Perhaps their implication is wrong – after all Orang_Utan also noticed the obvious deficiency …

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    #145125

    lin
    Participant

    Andy,
    If Shewart is a genius as you say, why don’t all these SS idiots read his work ? 
    When will people realise that control limits are not probability limits ?
     

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    #145127

    Six Sigma Shooter
    Member

    Who has time to actually learn the history of this stuff?  I mean, all you really need is eight days in a classroom and then take a test and. . . . presto chango, you’re a black belt!  Nothing could be easier.
    As for the issue of control limits not equaling probabilitiy limits . .   Lots of luck.  Been there, tried that.  People can’t seem to be able to get beyond the 68/95/99 stuff.  I believe Shewhart did say that probablities were “associated” with control limits, but they had nothing to do with why he selected +/- 3.  It was an economical decision.

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    #145135

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    Because  they are  Idiots?

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    #145138

    Bill,
    What I meant was Shewhart was the genius behind Deming. After all, when management became uncomfortable with the idea that management is responsible for the ‘system,’ Deming changed ‘systematic cause’ to common to a number of processes.
    To be honest, I could probably be described as a layman (idiotes) these days, so you’ll have to calrify your point for me. I’ve never regarded Control Limits as probability limits, but that is not in my favour because I’ve never given it much thought. I’ve always regarded CLs as ‘confidence intervals.’
    Are confidence intervals the same as probability limits – I don’t know; I’m not familiar with the concept of a  probability limit :-)
    Cheers,
    Andy

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    #145139

    Marlon,
    Coming back to your original question, I’ve just thought of a way to describe the ‘attitude’ of a sensei. Not that I’m a sensei of course – I’m only a student.
    The attitude is encapsulated by the following well-known saying:
    “Teach correct (Toyota principles) and let them govern themselves.”
    By way of comparison, the idea of an expert in the West is one who knows better …  even though he can’t run the process, take responsbility for meeting customer demand, or in some cases replace a light bulb.
    Cheers,
    Andy

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    #145140

    lin
    Participant

    Bravo !!  Economic limits. 
    Perhaps you can explain it to the other SS ignoramuses here … if they understood the basics, there would be no 1.5 sigma shift, no 3.4 DPMO, no hypothesis tests and all the other SS rubbish.
     

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    #145141

    Six Sigma Shooter
    Member

    That’s what I mean by “been there, tried that.”  Had a long back and forth with Gabriel several years back (kinda miss him – what ever happened to him?).  I came to realize it is kind of like the Marilyn Voss Savant three doors exercise: some people get it, most don’t – even the “learned” among us.

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    #145142

    lin
    Participant

    Sorry there SS Shooter … I didn’t realise that you were one of the crowd who had woken up to how much rubbish is in SS  !!!
    Harry and Reigle probably don’t care much now … I can imagine they spend their days laughing at the foolishness and gullibility of the masses, while counting their millions …

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    #145144

    Six Sigma Shooter
    Member

    I cut my teeth on Deming back in the early 80’s.  I have found that “tools” and methods are fun . . . . some are even useful  ;-)  Without a foundation of profound knowledge and a well understood aim for the system, they are very dangerous.

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    #145152

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    Andy
    Thanks  for  the  explanation.Which “School” one  do  you  prefer?Or suggest  a  mixture of  both,please  elaborate 

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    #145157

    Marlon,
    To my mind there is only one school – working for a Japanese company, and actually doing it.
    If you’re lucky to join a company during a start-up, or during a take over, you’ll learn Why as well as How.
    Only then will you understand the importance of stopping production and taking immediate corrective action because this is the only way to assert pre-eminence of requirements over numbers.
    Cheers,
    Andy
     

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    #145162

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    Agree. A Japanese company I worked for gives line stop order to all first line operators and QA inspector. Amazing part is the plant MD/CEO has no authority to overide line-stop decisions until a short-term correction action(s) is in place and a long-term preventive action(s) is in futre action list. The line-stop is lifted only after internal customer is fully satisfied.UK people are so good to churn our all sorts of nonsense ISO and other standards in the past 50 years. A tangile gain for them is certification fees and consulting service charges.

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    #145163

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    Seems that UK company’s professional standard is damned low.

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    #145165

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    In kanji, sensei is a honorable title for a respectable profession like teacher.Agree with you, sensei is someone with inside out in-depth knowledge and skill sets in their own field through decades of practising and learning.These consultants are considered outsiders to many fields, but calling themselves as sensei is insulting to “sensei” real meaning.

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    #145166

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    Agree. A Japanese company I worked for gives line stop order to all first line operators and QA inspector.Amazing part is the plant MD/CEO has no authority to overide line-stop decisions until a short-term correction action(s) is in place and a long-term preventive action(s) is in futre action list. The line-stop order is lifted only after internal customer is fully satisfied.UK people are so good to churn our all sorts of nonsense ISO and other standards in the past 50 years. A tangible gain for them is certification fees and consulting service charges.

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    #145168

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    When tools like ANOVA is owned solely by Six Sigma?I remember clearly that prior to six sigma term is coined, IE students have to learned SPC, hypothesis, etc. stuffs.

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    #145169

    Orang_Utan,
    Your perspective is correct as usual, but I’d go further. It’s mostly  ‘Topsy-Turvy’ over here. I’m sure you’ll appreciate how anything taken to an extreme can produce the oppostite effect :-)
    Cheers,
    Andy

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    #145171

    Mikel
    Member

    I agree, there are only a few who deserve the title.

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    #145174

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    I  believe  that you  are  one  of  them,but  your  Problem  that  you  are  not  “Humble” enough  to  communicate with  all  types  of  persons.Your  self-esteem is  very-very High.dding  to  the list:mike  Carnell,Darth ,Andy Urghart…..and  some  others .Mike  Carnell and  Andy Urghart are  great  consultants with  Karisma and high  sense  of  humanity,just  my  opinion.

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    #145175

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    Please  elaborate  more……

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    #145176

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    Nostaligia?

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    #145183

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    Your personality does not make you a bad consultant. Sincerity, professionalism and your know-how are factors counted at the end  of the day.

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    #145192

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    Agree

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    #145193

    Joe BB
    Participant

    And you are not one of them!

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    #145195

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    NO.I’m  still  learning ?

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    #145198

    Six Sigma Shooter
    Member

    Nostalgia?  Hardly.  Too much to look forward to, don’t want to waste time pining over the past.   Looking back over the past to learn from it is not nostalgia in this case. . .   I would call it more of a state of reflective pondering to gain insights into the future, resultant from the nature of significant emotional event avoidance reflex syndrome.  “The future isn’t what it used to be anyway,” to quote a famous philosophizer (go get ’em, Yogi!). 
    No, I was just informing Bill that past efforts have been made to tell others that control limits at +/- 3 std dev were not selected by Walter Shewhart because of probabilities.  The thread became a long back and forth debate, and all one need do is to read Shewhart and what he said about it.
    Best regards

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    #145201

    Mikel
    Member

    Reigle didn’t get the millions – only Harry.

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    #145202

    Six Sigma Shooter
    Member

    To find out more about the aim of a system and the System of Profound Knowledge, I suggest two books by Deming:  1) Out of the Crisis; and 2) The New Economics.  Without these two critical elements of knowledge of one’s business, it is like a ship without a rudder being controlled by the guys in the galley.  Incorrect information is garnered from improperly analyzed data, improper decisions are made, time and money are wasted, customers and jobs are lost . . .  It’s not a pretty scene, but one that is repeated over and over again due to methods still taught in the prestigous business schools, and by consultants who focus on short term tools and methods without any long term thinking and analysis. 
    Deming used to say, “How could they know?  There was no one to teach them.”  I don’t think that’s true, now.  There have been plenty of teachers.  But, Deming would also say that knowledge only comes in from the outside and only by invitation.  The teachers are here and ready, but the invitations to really learn are very few and far between.  The drive for a short term, pain free fixes is still alive and well, unfortunately.

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    #145203

    Six Sigma Shooter
    Member

    BTW, whatever became of the latest and greatest innovation in Lean Six Sigma, the “Gold Belt?”  Didn’t Mikel launch that about a year or two back?  Haven’t heard anything about it since, thank goodness.

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    #145215

    Aubby
    Participant

    I personally don’t believe you can successfully implement Six Sigma Methodology without first applying the lean techniques.
    During my training classes, I use the Titanic to explain the difference.  For instance, I show icebergs below the water surface with the Titanic approaching.  Lean comes in and lowers the water level (Basically cleans up and eliminates waste).  Once the water is lowered, the icebergs can be seen.  From there, Six Sigma comes in, attacks and eliminates the icebergs.  Make sense?
     

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    #145216

    LEAN
    Participant

    Aubby,
    That post just tops the level of ignorance that professed “trainers” have shown in regards to process improvement on this forum. It just leaves one speechless and breathless.

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    #145217

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    Already exposed a pseudo sensei in UK who is providing “free” green belt and toolkit. LOL

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    #145226

    Mikel
    Member

    Boy that lowering the water level analogy is a new one – I first saw it in 1984 in a cycle time reduction class (before the term “Lean” was in popular use)

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    #145227

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    A “World-class Performance” lecture conducted by Oliver Wight consultants at my ex-company premises in 1993 was using sea water level as inventory anology.I can scan and share a few pages of its training slides if someone requests for them.The lecture topic is TPS and TQM integration under a similiar today’s lean six sigma approach. In nutshell, Michael George is not the first consultant in mooting out lean six sigma idea.The funny thing is some “sensei” grade consultants in UK are so high about such old idea. :-)

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    #145228

    Gutierrez
    Participant

    Try drinking the sea water.  The effect is a good analogy to six sigma.

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    #145229

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    Japanese will teach you it’s better not drinking too much water. A good anology of over consumption in your troubled backyard.

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    #145230

    Vetri
    Member

    Six sigma focusses more on quality than speed. Lean are better at improving process flow and speed. The both combined together is what makes Lean Six Sigma.

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    #145231

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    This more than 13 years ago slide shall shutting off claim from those professed “sensei” in TBM and George group that lean six sigma is not their invention.

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    #145234

    GB
    Participant

    Orang utan,
    You are violating copyright bu scanning/copying/pasting proprietary materials here…
    Namaste and good luck

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    #145236

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    Excellent  Idea :should  open  a  new  business and  generate lot  of  money?

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    #145237

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    They  should  read  that

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    #145238

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    Agree

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    #145240

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    Very  Impressive.Please indicate  the  relevant  link (cartoon),thanks

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    #145243

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    Please show  the  relevant  Link.Thanks

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    #145244

    BB
    Participant

    Both focus mainly on BS

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    #145246

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    Obviously, you do not understand the copyrights law in the majority countries. Most copyrights law allows 5 to 10% duplication/photocopy work on any copyrighted materials for non-commercial or educational purpose. I also intentionally put a big cross on the slides to make them useless for commercial usage.

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    #145247

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    Mr. Michael Marx,
    Please make sure your forum moderator knows what is copyrights law first before simply deleting my post again.
    How a crossed useless slide is violating copyright? Somehow the slide also is mainly used as a proof to support an intellectual discussion.

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    #145248

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    I think my posting with a link was deleted by moderator. Already lodge a complaint with Michael Marx on his forum moderator.

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    #145249

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    Mr. Michael Marx,(see your company’s feedback mailbox also)Please make sure your forum moderator knows what is copyrights law first before simply deleting my post again.How a crossed useless slide is violating copyright? Somehow the slide also is mainly used as a proof to support an intellectual discussion.

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    #145251

    Orang_Utan,
    As you know I greatly respect you and would not wish to contradict you, but I don’t see how this cartoon represents a Kanban.
    It reminds me of a situation I encountered walking through the factory one day, all the Japanese guys started laughing and rolling around the aisle. When I asked what was so funny they pointed to a little sign which read Kanbam.
    My friend looked at me and said:”How can they use something they don’t understand and can’t spell?
    No I have no idea what Kanbam means, but to my mind this cartoon just indicated someone’s ignorance, as I’m sure you know what a Kanban is :-)
    Cheers,
    Andy

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    #145254

    Cravens
    Participant

    If you can’t understand copyright its no wonder you can’t understand quality.

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    #145259

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    The consultants were HP retirees with hands-on experience in TPS. HP is among the first American company looking at TPS in early 80s. The consultant did not say kanban is a physical card hanging in the plant. The message is inventory is a horrible waste which can be reduced with JIT system.
    Just be alerted not all Japanese are “sensei” in JIT like their counterparts in Toyota.
     

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    #145260

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    Of course I do not understand quality as per UK ISO9000 standard from day one.  LOL
     

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    #145262

    Orang_Utan,
    Do you still have my email address? I’ve lost yours as I’ve had several PC crashes and not enough nounce to us a memory stick!
    I have something that might interest you – in exchange for a good satay sauce recipe :-)
    Cheers,
    Andy

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    #145271

    Just a guy
    Participant

    God, save same of this souls!
    Let me say something here! I’m so sad, i can allmost cry…
    From my ignorance let me tell to all of you “iluminated” MY TOOL!
    Some of you just seem to me like young football coachs, “Should i use two left wings or two left defenders?”.
    Lean an Six Sigma are great! If combined great+great! (some think so)
    From my point of view there are only 3 kinds of problems.
     1- The problem which i allready know the solution (or at least i think so). Here i use JDI methodology.
    2- The problem(waste) i allready identify, may know the solution or not. Here i use Lean.
    3- The problem which i don’t know the solution or i can’t explain. Here i use Six Sigma.
    So far, with this form, i had my results…who can tell me i’m wrong and explain…
     
    Just a guy,

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    #145275

    Adams
    Participant

    Glad to see that you’re so sad that you could cry. Because a century ago someone said that the world is so sad, it doesn’t even cry any more … I am glad to see that it is improving (with the help of Six Sigma that would be). And I am also glad that your world is simple: 2 + 2 = 4, and that is a simple truth.

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    #145278

    Brit
    Participant

    Not saying that they are owned by six sigma. Just saying they are more commonly used in a six sigma environment than in a lean environment, in most cases.
    And yes, as an IE, I did learn those tools prior to six sigma.

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    #145280

    Just a guy
    Participant

    Thank’s!

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    #145307

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    This  new  century should  face  more wares and  troubles.So  I’m still  sad .Logical-wise 2+2=4 but  in  politic it is  not  4 ??

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    #145315

    BB
    Participant

    Are you crazy … 2+2 = 6
    … just ask Harry !!!

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    #145319

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    Andy, will email you. Will serve you Kajang satay when you are in Asia. :-)

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    #145321

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    Keep on arguing whether lean or six sigma is better is meaningless.
    Chinese ex-paramount leader, Deng Xio Peng has a famous saying, “Regardless it is a white or black cat, as long as it can catch a mouse is a good cat”.

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    #145323

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    This more than 13 years ago slide shall shutting off claim from those professed “sensei” in TBM and George group that lean six sigma is their “invention”.
    They are other people combining quality and speed under a system prior to 1993. Oliver Wight is also not the first one to do so.

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    #145328

    Vishna
    Member

    Mouse is sacred.  Very bad cat.

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    #145329

    Simon W
    Member

    Hahahaha(LOL), I am glad to see your excellent discuss on this issue which let us know in-depth six sigma & lean.
    My opinion with simple: Lean has 4 letters and Six Sigma has 8 letters plus one blank, thus Lean is leaner than SS.
    Hahahaha.
    Would like to chip in more in the following discuss.
    Simon W

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    #145354

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    Agree:Sound “stupid” Logic (SSL):I  suggest  to  initiate this  new  trend for  those who  are  not  serious and  like to  make  fun:SSL??

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    #145356

    Orang_Utan
    Participant

    Simon Wong?,I seocnd you, LSS is a three letters word, leaner than four letters word, lean. LOL

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    #145361

    BB
    Participant

    You are wrong.  Six Sigma has a lot more than one blank mind … so if it comes to IQ, SS is leaner than lean.

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    #145371

    Simon W
    Member

    Hahaha, That’s great!
    Cheers,
    Simon W

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    #145381

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    New  Style:Simon’s hahahah

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