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More 6 sigma Disasters at Ford

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  • #45994

    Ward
    Participant

    Despite Ford’s 10,000 black belts, ten’s of thousands of other belts, and billions of dollars spent on six sigma, another 40,000 workers are about to be sacked.

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    #151288

    Adam
    Participant

    That’s type I savings!

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    #151292

    accurate
    Participant

    great accuracy of statistics (10,000 black belts 0-) … someone’s still handling numbers the way our ancestors handled them in the middle ages … welcome to 2007!

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    #151294

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Correct.  In fact a project was set up with 29 master black belts.  The project team discovred that the companys losses were caused by the manufacture of automobiiles. The cost cutting solution proposed was to stop makin so many cars and to sack 40,000 people.

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    #151335

    Heebeegeebee BB
    Participant

    Or could it be that Ford’s Design/MFG. community continues to ignore robust DFMA, creating generation, upon generation of ugly, unreliable pieces of crap?
     
    Doesn’t matter how many BB’s you have, if Sr mgmt doesn’t listen to them and makes cars (if you can even call them that….) with the poorest reliability of any domestic mfg’r??

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    #151338

    MSSBB 23
    Participant

    Unfortunately, I totally agree with you.  Management commerically played the American public as fools, if you recall their ad’s stating “Ford, quality is Job 1.” 
    But, lets look on the potential side, while Ford stock plummets……this creates a great time to buy their stock, why, because when they go to Toyota to request help, Toyota now poised and positioned will be able to buy Ford, literally!  Six Sigma will be redeemed! Deming will have the last laugh on American piety!
     

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    #151344

    SoCal BB
    Member

    Let’s face it – streamlining processes and increasing efficiencies aren’t concepts embraced by a Unionized workforce.  I think they were set-up for failure from the beginning.
     
    Plus – Six Sigma was introduced by Jacques Nasser during his reign – not sure home much Bill Ford embraced the methodology after he booted Jacques in 2001 (or was it 2000?).

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    #151347

    Heebeegeebee BB
    Participant

    SoCal, You nailed it right on the head!
    Awesome post…

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    #151350

    Ropp
    Participant

    The snale oil salesmen will always scratch for excuses for all the six sigma failures.  Ford was training thousands of black belts well after 2001.

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    #151352

    Ropp
    Participant

    Here’s a 2004 article “Design for Six Sigma at Ford”
    http://www.asq.org/pub/sixsigma/past/vol4_issue1/ssfmv4i1soderborg.pdf
    It should be called “Design for Failure at Ford”

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    #151354

    Yoshi
    Member

    There is a robust solution that many companies use these days  .. subcontract … to Toyota managment!

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    #151356

    Simple Minds
    Member

    A simple mind will always find a simple answer: the reason why Ford is in the shape it is now is because of six sigma … lovingly simple: 2 + 2 = 4, who could argue with such a simple logic?

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    #151358

    No Toyota for me
    Participant

    Over 9.3 million cars recalled in the last three years.  Engineering forgetting to put a child restraint system in the front passenger seat (oops)- a requirement for when the air bag is turned off as recommended by NHTSA for children.  Head of Toyota making a public apology to the employees for their poor quality.  A full time quality guy brought back from Toyota Europe – first time in their history they have assigned a full time quality person.  Hmmmm . . . seems Toyota has its own problems being the end all be all of car manufacturing. 
    Might want to read the article in Business Week to see how the vaunted Toyota quaity has fallen on its face.  There is also a lot of customer provided evidence on their blog on how Toyota service issues are denied, ignored, and dealt with through service directives (with no notification to the owners), instead of doing a general recall, as is expected here in the states.

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    #151359

    Sprakenhayt
    Member

    Japanese cars are copying German designed cars but didn’t heard or known of any German automotive implementing Six Sigma and Lean — the good news is — there are no recalls, headcount reduction, others
    Achtung!

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    #151362

    No Benz for me
    Participant

    No Layoffs?  How about the one in late 2005?
    Mercedes just announced 8,500 job cuts in Germany. That’s about 9% of the work force–by German standards a huge layoff. The company’s hands were tied by a previous deal with unions that guaranteed jobs until 2011, but Zetsche is circumventing that through voluntary buyouts. They will cost the firm more than $1 billion, or a whopping $135,000 a person. Zetsche doesn’t mince words about his top priority: “Our most important task right now is to ensure that our excellent products can be made with less input,” he says. As for the damage to Mercedes’ reputation, he likens the brand to “a kind of savings account” from which the company has had to make a few withdrawals. “We have to strongly start to re-fund it,” he says.

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    #151360

    No Benz for me
    Participant

    No recalls?  Take a look at the very long list of Mercedes recalls through this link.
    http://www.internetautoguide.com/auto-recalls/01-int/mercedes-benz/index.html

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    #151361

    Super Simple Minds
    Member

    hey, all of this proves: it may or may not work. let’s flip a coin.

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    #151363

    No Benz for me
    Participant

    No six sigma?  Six Sigma Qualtec lists Mercedes as one of their clients.

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    #151365

    Undercover
    Member

    At GE Healthcare you can take a 3 day lean class and then go out and run “Lean” projects. The 3 day class also entitles you to refer to yourself as a lean expert. The kicker, you can do all this without any mentoring from a real expert. Take a class and bingo, you’re done.
    GE Healthcare has undertaken “Lean” without having a vision or strategy to create a sustaining operation. Do a VSM and a quick Kaizen and you’re an expert?
    Can someone really become an knowledgeable lean person with no mentoring with no supporting strategy?

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    #151364

    Undercover
    Member

    GE Healthcare’s Surgery unit had to stop all shipments due to FDA quality concerns. So much for DFSS or Six Sigma.
    Maybe they spent too much time gaming NPS results for management.
    Is any other organization wasting their MBBs and BBs time doing NPS nonsense that no one has any intent on following up on?
    GE is going to kill NPS’ credibility in a tenth of the time it took to destroy six sigma’s credibility.

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    #151368

    Undercover
    Member

    If the stock continues to suck. The retirees counting on a safe decent return will have to stay home watching lifetime.

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    #151366

    NPS
    Participant

    six sigma will next be responsible for any decline in national park service attendance … luv u dave …  

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    #151370

    Heinrick
    Participant

    Who in their right mind would buy an American Six Sigma car, rather than a German Benz – the ultimate quality.
    No wonder Ford and GM are going down the toilet.

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    #151371

    No Benz for me
    Participant

    Did you say “Mercedes quality?”  Not bloody likely!
    “In the recently released 2006 Annual Car Reliability Survey by Consumer Reports, seven models from Mercedes-Benz were rated as Least Reliable. The last generation S-Class, CLS, E-Class, SL, CLK, V6 SLK and the M-Class SUV were all ranked least reliable based on the Consumer Reports survey comprised of responses from 1.3 million of the magazine’s subscribers. A Mercedes spokesperson blames the brand’s poor performance on a couple of issues that include brake dust on high performance stoppers (that’s part of the charm!) and problems with the company’s new 7-speed transmission that have reportedly been fixed. Mercedes-Benz has certainly had quality issues the past several years . . .” 

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    #151372

    Duke Okes
    Participant

    Yes, someone can become an expert without  mentor.  It happens all the time.  It just doesn’t happen in 3 days.

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    #151373

    EdG
    Participant

    Oh they are soooo much better.
    And you get to pay Otto 15X’s the going rate for something simple as an oil change else no more warrantee.
    I would hate to go with something like… a LEXUS.

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    #151379

    Idiotinmath.
    Participant

    No

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    #151380

    Idiotinmath.
    Participant

    Mercidis.Benz  is  applying  Lean-SS without noise

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    #151405

    suggestion
    Member

    As a frequent reader of your engaging and highly contributory postings, I wonder if I could presume to make a recommendation.  
     
    You forum ID “idiotinmath” (while certainly appropriate for your mathematical input) appears to lightly suffer the sin of omission in not being as all-inclusive and all-encompassing as might be warranted.   
     
    If I might be so bold as to recommend a change of forum ID on your part to “idiotinallthings” (or even “allthingsidiot” if you prefer).   
     

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    #151406

    Allthingsidiot
    Participant

    Are  you  happy ,have  changed  my ID.I  suggest  then  that  you  cahnge  your  ID to  become :Allthingsmart?so  as  to  introduce  some  balance  to  this valuable Forum,best  regards 

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    #151410

    suggestion
    Member

    Sorry.   I’m afraid that I can’t agree with you regarding changing my forum ID because, after all, you now post as “allthingsidiot” and have now, unfortunately, lost what little credibility you had.  

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    #151415

    Allthingsidiot
    Participant

    I really  appreciate  your  sense  of  humor.

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    #151431

    Adam
    Participant

    If I remember correctly, I think I read a while back that they had an agreement with the unions that they would always provide work for them.  Therefore, they had to make cars to keep the unions employed, even though there wasn’t any demand for them.  That’s why they have to have all of their end of the year sales to try and get some of the money back.  It makes getting rid of some people seems like a reasonable thing to do.

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    #151438

    suggestion
    Member

    You appreciate my sense of humor?   
     
    Well that’s no fun…… you’re supposed to rant and rave and get all bent out of shape.   
     
    Haven’t you been paying attention to forum protocol?    It’s tit-for-tat, tit-for-tat, tit-for-tat, and then a nonlinear explosion follows.   
     
     
    You appreciate my sense of humor? 
     
    Well that’s just no fun at all.     Let me follow suit and wish you a nice day.      

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    #151448

    Ritz
    Member

    Soderborg’s article is worthless.  The “assumptions” he cites as causes of failure are about as vague and useless as most of the reponses in this thread.
    Interesting to note that most of the key individuals that developed DCOV at Ford are not cited in the article.  They were a good group that did their best in an extremely challenging environment.  I challenge anyone to have done better.
    Ritz

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    #151480

    Recruiter
    Participant

    We have been interviewing 10’s of GE Healthcare BBs and MBBs.
    To my surprise, they seen to believe doing a VSM is doing lean. The training didn’t include coaching and mentoring, just classroom time? When asked how they then selection /events/projects they admit it’s difficult because there is little real data associated with the VSM and that it’s more ad-hoc, but I was assured the ad-hoc projects are beneficial.
    Even more surprising was that they didn’t know if a lean roll-out strategy existed. The answers were inconsistent and random. Basically, use “lean” associated tools and fix something. Asked how this approach will change the culture, they couldn’t come up with a decent answer.
    I was left with the impression that they hadn’t learned the lean/TPS philosophy just the tools.
    I’m not sure this is a disaster but, it’s very surprising.

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    #151481

    RE
    Participant

    We’ve interviewed BBs and MBBs for GE Healthcare, they were all quite aware of NPS, how NPS is calculated, and that a high NPS is associated with growth.
    But no one knew what growth meant or how its being measured. Revenue, market share, margin, …
    It’s probably a good program but no one knows what growth means.

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    #151486

    Allthingsidiot
    Participant

    They  are  applying Lean-SS without  naming it,just hiring  all  the  concernrd  advanced  quality  practices,without  using  “buzzwords” as  we  do  day  and  night??

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    #151491

    jtomac01
    Participant

    Which part of GEHC were these folks from?  A lot of the BB/MBB’s were given a course or two on the GE version of LEAN.  Judging by your comment they are leaving you with the impression that a VSM is the what LEAN is?  Not sure you are asking the question, most view the VSM as only a lean tool.  What is interesting is a lot of GE liked to use the VSM as a way to develop a LEAN strategic plan for a product line.  I do know certain parts of GEHC is further along with LEAN than other parts of GE.
    I do know that GE has hired several outside LEAN/TPS trained folks who were developing and help rolling out the strategy.  Another thing I noticed when I was in GE is the friction between LEAN & Six Sigma.  Yes, the BB/MBB’s see LEAN as nothing more than a tool or set of tools that deal specifically with eliminating waste & thus time efficiency.  Most if not all companies I have interviewed or worked for take this same view of LEAN, nothing but a compiled set of tools.  So I am not surprised by your comments.

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    #151494

    BTDT
    Participant

    Recruiter:

    Recruiter: I have done a fair amount of work with the GE folks and have
    to admit that the integration of Lean into the Six Sigma structure is not
    perfect. The selection process to identify the most important projects from a
    list of candidates is probably the Achilles heel. Your point puts it perfectly. Cheers, BTDT  6SigmaGuru(at)gmail(dot)com

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    #151501

    Recruiter 2
    Participant

    I’ve noticed this also. There is a lack focus & mission. People are busy doing stuff but they don’t know if it’s the right stuff.
    I am surprised, unlike the other’s, that there isn’t a legitimate strategy for people to rally around.

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    #151507

    BTDT
    Participant

    R2:In addition to this lack of direction and focus, many projects lack the analysis of demand necessary for addressing Mura(unevenness). Demand is often substituted with sales targets.All the right tools are there, but there is little guidance and mentoring for sequencing them.Not everything should be centred on NPS. I have yet to see a project that includes the confidence interval calculation for an NPS score required to “prove the improve.”Cheers, BTDT

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    #151513

    sorry about that
    Member

    I actually now feel bad about picking at you and your forum ID, please revert back to “mathematicsidiot” or whatever it was.   
     
    To have foisted the moniker “allthingsidiot” on someone is unconscionable – even for me, however applicable it seemed at the time, or subsequently, I suppose.   Sorry.  

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    #151514

    Henry’s Ghost
    Participant

    In the words of Henry Ford II:  “Never complain, never explain”

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    #151515

    NPS Lean Fan
    Participant

    What GE Healthcare has done with NPS is a disaster.
    Fred wishes he never got involved with them.
    GEHC has taken a shotgun short-term approach to “say” they’re doing NPS. For instance, they created an independent organization with the primary purpose of ensuring calls to clients are being and this is how they’re performance is gauged. Yet very few people know what to do the results. No one was taught or guided on how to use the data acquired. Talk about muda & mura.
    To make things worst, this team was asking people to come up with big bet initiatives to improve NPS quickly. As if after years of neglecting customers, their loyalty can be improved in a quarter. Supposedly some organizations are claiming success. Ha!
    And yes it’s true, this same team at least several months ago couldn’t tell you which growth metric is of primary interest.
    To learn how to effectively implement NPS go to
    http://www.netpromoter.com/
    Read what not to do & watch GE do it.
    GEHC, NPS isn’t about the score. You can’t improve it in quarter. Yes, we have heard the stories about people changing who is called; getting a better and claiming NPS has improved. It takes a long-term plan perhaps even integrated with six sigma, lean, or whatever you’re using.

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    #151520

    jtomac01
    Participant

    Understood, but can’t this be said for any program or company, not just GE?  I am a former GE Black Belt & Lean Leader, who happens to have worked at several Fortune 50 companies, this isn’t just a GE phenom  in my opinion, this is really an American Company phenom.

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    #151523

    Allthingsidiot
    Participant

    3-days is  not  enough  at  all.Please  go  for  the  Villanova’s GB-SS 8-weeks on-line  course.  

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    #151527

    Allthingsidiot
    Participant

    If  the  Toyota Company  is  the  best  in  the  world ,then  why the  Toyota  car is  not  the  best (not  a  stupid  question)?Please explain without elaborating all  the  Lean activities  that usually implementd in  Toyota and  other  companies. 

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    #151528

    Allthingsidiot
    Participant

    Who  told  you  that??

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    #151529

    Tater Tot
    Member

    Last laugh? He had a chance to have his last laugh at Pontiac.
    How many Fiero’s do you own?

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    #151549

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Who was the Chief Snake Oil Salesman at the ford fiasco? Dr. Harry, Richard Schroeder and Six Sigma Academy painted this masterpiece. What a surprise.

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    #152342

    richard owen
    Member

    I would like to respond to this post. As CEO at Satmetrix, I’ve had the opportunity to see a significant number of Net Promoter programs, as well as running the netpromoter.com website and the net promoter conferences. I’ve also had the opportunity to see several aspects of the GEHC program in action.
    I would not suggest (and I don’t believe the folks at GEHC would suggest) that the current program can’t be improved. There are always areas for improvement in communication, training and execution across any program and Net Promoter itself is an evolving discipline. Having said that, given the length of time the program has been in place, I would calibrate the progress at GEHC far more favorably. What I do observe is a serious commitment to incorporating the voice of the customer into the operations of the business at both a strategic and operational level, together with internal processes and tools to support these goals.
    I would not agree that the intention of the management team is to “say” they are doing Net Promoter, there would be a lot cheaper and less time intensive approaches to accomplishing such a goal, and I would add that the management team correctly sees the program as one of culture change as much as building an effective metric and program.
    In your post you make a fair point, that improving  the Net Promoter Score requires a long term plan and integration with six sigma… you are right… but I also believe that’s directionally where GE is heading.
    I’d suggest that we sell the program at GEHC short if we mistake progress along a learning curve as lack of commitment or progress.
    richard

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    #153689

    Cravens
    Participant

    As an GEHC client, we love NPS!
    But admittedly, for the wrong reasons.
    We quickly figured out that they are people in GE so focused on their score they are willing to give the store away in hopes of getting a better score from us in the future. We use the survey to complain about everything (especially their god awful service-which no one is fixing) & request features, products, services, & other stuff regardless of our contracts. What’s there not to love?
    No we haven’t increased their score ; ) .
    Mr. Owen, respectfully, everyone I have dealt with @ GEHC has given me different explanations of NPS and no one was able to coherently explain the “game plan” (yet there’s no shortage corporate NPS gobblygook) to improve the score, especially their awful support services.

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    #153842

    loyalty
    Participant

    Richard, I think NPS is good but nothing nothing new.
    As for GEHC’s NPS it is far from strategic. At a recent conference I pressed GEHC MBBs on their NPS strategies & tactics their answers revolved around calling clients and creating hot sheets. None spoke of a longer-term plan but they spoke about big bets and an outrageous idea that they would increase NPS 10% in a year.
    None could tell me what growth meant and how they measure it!
    None could provide examples of how they have reduced bad profits.
    It appears that GEHC has taken a 1 dimensional approach to NPS by focusing soley on the score.

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    #153849

    Be Real
    Participant

    NPS at GEHC is about measuring the score and a feable one-off attempt of reducing dissatisfaction for individual customers. GE is adding complexity to their business by creating individualized solutions to fundamental business functions (this is expensive solution & last time I spoke with GEHC clients cost was an issue) instead of taking the time and having the discipline to correct the system. This model is not only unsustainable, especially if you have a large client base, but further creates services & support issues by virtue of creating unstandard products or services. So much for lean.
    Obviously GEHC NPS is not about growth exactly as you mentioned.
    GEHC NPS fad is 1 dimensional as you pointed out. To derive the real growth benefits of NPS-you need to measure more than NPS. What about profitability of clients or segments? What about bad profits? GEHC doesn’t understand reducing dissatisfaction doesn’t relate to improved satisfaction – Quality 101.

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    #153854

    Restagno
    Member

    We (telco company with 2 mil. customers) measure NPS on monthly basis with call back system.
    We made an analysis on NPS (what it makes go up or down). We found out that a strong marketing campaign (product or brand) makes NPS go up.
    Now we added more question to NPS to track dissatisfaction.
    s
     

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