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  • #47032

    CT
    Participant

    Off the subject, but would like some feed back from some intelligent people in different industries. Recently ABC news journalist John Stosel ran a very uninformed article about Ethanol and basically said Ethanol was a joke, and was the biggest government scam ever.
    I currently work as Facility Manager for a very large Ethanol group at a brand new 88MMG facility in NE and would like to hear some feed back from groups outside and inside my industry. So lets here it, What are your thoughts?
    CT

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    #156241

    GB
    Participant

    I agree with Stossel.   I work with several ex-automotive types who have given me their take on it.
    Basically, e-85 get’s less MPG than gas, is more corrosive and is only as “cheap” as it is due to heavy Gov suvsidizing.   Also, the CO2 generated at both the farms and post-combustion is really high.
    the real benefit is decreased dependance on foreign oil sources…that’s it.  
    So on the force-field analysis chart, the pro is lower dependance, the cons are increased emissions, higher prices (after adjusting for the subsidies), lower MPG and potentially, higher repair costs due to wear on engine components/fuel lines, etc…
    If you know differently, please share your insight and support with data, not just an indusrty-bias.
    Cheers.

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    #156244

    CT
    Participant

    HBGB B^2 Less Gas milage-true. can be compensated for with computer tuning. Yes it can already did it on my truck, get over 18mpg in a 2004 dodge 4×4 running 75 down the interstate. Not great, but better than the 15 MPG it was getting before. CO2 generation Scrubbing technology has almost eliminated emmissions from fermentation process. Less than 400PPM, and other technologies are coming that can eliminate this all together, CO2 collection in many plants is also an option. At any rate is still less pollution per gallon than your local refinery emissions. Gov Subsidizing-pretty damn sad gov has to pay big oil to add to gas.  Corrosion to fuel systems-Additions of anti corrosive agents such as DCI-11 at the factory prevent this from happening. Also very strict guidlines on acidity levels in final QA reduce the risk even further.
     

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    #156249

    GB
    Participant

    Intersting points…
    However,your answers to my “con’s” all can/will increase the $/Gal at the pump.   scrubbers, additives, etc…someone has to pay for these.   The subsidies I mentioned were not to big oil, but rather to the ethanol producers and farms.   Not sawgrass (some kind of grass) is being looked at, but the cost of prodcinf Ethanol from this source is even higher than with corn…
    Also, it is claimed that the increased production of corn at the farm-level has led to latent CO2 out-gassing in the fields which equals or may even surpass that of emitted CO2 from cars….How would you propose collection/scrubbing in a field/farming environment? hothouse/greenhouse?   That’s more cost passed on to consumers.
    Bottom line…Is Ethanol/E-85 workable?   Sure, if you want to pay European-level prices for fuel.    I think if a Balsy congress would mandate E-85 only for a 5 year period, OPEC’s back would be broken, but it would require signif sacrifice on our part…high prices, increased wear and tear.   But can you imagine a 5-year boycott on all oil/gas from OPEC gangdter-cartel nations?   wow.
    E-85 is great for reducing dependancy…that’s about it.
     

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    #156250

    clb1
    Participant

      This is the best article I’ve read on the subject – basically it says corn ethanol is a no-go.
    http://www.nelson.wisc.edu/outreach/biofuels/readings/isethanolforthelonghaul.pdf

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    #156251

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    hbgb b^2,
    I saw data that cow flatulence was impacting the environment negatively so we are eating more beef these days. Does that help?
    Regards

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    #156253

    GB
    Participant

    My wife blames Global Warming on “Heebee-Flatulence”.
    ;-)
    Hey, is that Al Gore hiding behind my palm tree with the sniper rifle?…He’s around here at least twice a week…

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    #156255

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    hbgb b^2,
    You need to show her the stuff from the two Russian scientists that are betting a couple scientists from the UK that it is sun spot related.
    Nobody wants to discuss all the predictions of worse hurricanes last summer over the previous summer due to warming and we had how many hurricanes last season?
    This whole thing drives on a more complex model than temperature. The theory is hurricane activity is sensitive to a 3 degree shift in temperature? (don’t mention the shift took 27 years)
    Grassy knoll stuff.
    Regards

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    #156257

    CT
    Participant

    actual cost to produce one gallon of ethanol at a 100mmgal facility is about 1.35 to 1.38 at 3.50 per bushel corn. Much like crude oil, Corn is traded on the stock market and really influences the price per gallon. Corn Ethanol production is like this, 33% Ethanol (99.978 proof) 33% CO2, and 33% bi-product (feed stock) , to simplify even more each bushel of corn has enough fermentable starch to produce 2.65 gallons of Ethanol. Once this process is completed the 33% bi-product can then be reprocessed and biodiesel extracted from it. Although this reduces the quality of the feed stock, it is still a viable feed source.
    I have not seen any studies on the CO2 outgasing from corn fields. However this does go against my 8th grade chemistry class on Photosynthesis and CO2 to O2 Oxygen conversion.
    As for cellulosic ethanol production, I think the industry is still a few years away from really being able to control the process, but the R&D movements in the past year have really been promising.
    Increased field corn production will mean increased supply and lower per bushel prices, so Ethanol should become even more attractive to consumers. Recent acreage reports show that this years gain in corn production should hold corn prices for fall delivery at or below 3.00 per bushel which were the industry should be.

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    #156258

    CT
    Participant

    Good Stuff Mike, I recently read an article were one scientist thought the earth was actually getting smaller in Diameter, this was causing the ocean to rise thus melting artic Ice, which was the air conditioner for earth. He went on to say that all the earth plates in the Indian ocean were overlapping and causing the earth to shrink.
    I think he smoked  alot in college.

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    #156260

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    CT,
    It makes you always want to ask for the measurement system analysis or the raw data doesn’t it?
    Regards

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    #156262

    CT
    Participant

    Yes

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    #156265

    BC
    Participant

    3 degrees…hmmmm….that doesn’t correspond to 1.5 sigma, does it ;-)

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