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  • #51856

    Jerry Hiott
    Participant

    Are their any accredited Lean, Green or Black Belt courses that can be done solely on line? If so what are they?

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    #181175

    Nolan
    Participant

    Define “accredited” then we may be able to answer the question.

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    #181177

    Kluttz
    Member

    Cue the Jaws soundtrack.
    nah-nuh……….nah-nuh…..na-nuh na-nuh na-nuh

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    #181180

    Nolan
    Participant

    LOL
    Just want to make certain I know what the guy thinks he’s asking….

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    #181185

    SandMan
    Member

    thought that was the Dumb and Dumber sound track…?

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    #181188

    Pal
    Participant

    Jerry – I believe “accredited” is more properly used to describe an institution, i.e., the school.  Beyond that, you’ll need to find out exactly who provides the online part of the training.  For example, Villanova does not provide their advertised training, Bisk Education, a for-profit business does. 

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    #181189

    SandMan
    Member

    Accredited and certified… well, OK
    I like Moresteam.com through ASQ.
    And if we can read the forum through the bunches of ads, then we might have some other choices…?
    Not that a free site like this is a bad thing with a few ads here and there…

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    #181207

    luke skywalker
    Participant

    Disagree
    I believe Villanova is the best!

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    #181208

    Elanore
    Participant

    I have an accredited range of courses covering every color belt possible.
    I should point out that like most companies, I do my own accreditation.  However I can guarantee that my certificates are worth much more than the paper they are printed on.

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    #181209

    Luke Skywalker really
    Participant

    Wow, I feel special now that someone else is posting as me. Well, I got 7+ years out of this handle, so that’s rather good I think. Now that the Death Star has crushed the rebellion, might be time for a new name.
     

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    #181210

    Torrance
    Participant

    Hi Elanore – I’m interested to know how your
    certificates are guaranteed to be worth more.
    Genuinely – without trying to be cynical – I’m
    interested.Kind regards
    Davy T

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    #181217

    Chris Seider
    Participant

    Demonstration of knowledge is best demonstrated with results of project execution.  Online certifications generally do not achieve this without some evaluation of on-site project evaluation or interactive evaluation of projects submitted for review. 
    The power behind DMAIC is not the individual tools but in the process of how the tools work together. 
     

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    #181218

    Torrance
    Participant

    Agree C Seider.
    Like many others on the forum, I believe that we
    have an overwhelming number of people who want
    quick certification. Therefore companies are only
    too willing to exploit the market wants, and they
    offer quick and cheap – through whatever platform
    they can deliver. The difficulty is that their
    market is the candidates, not necessarily the
    industry itself. (The VOC would be quite different
    I’d expect)
    Unfortunately, this leaves the integrity and
    credibility of certifications lacking in many
    cases.
    There’s certain things that must be learnt – but
    cannot be taught. Those are the vital elements that
    cannot be included in any documented course – they
    can only be realised through application, in a real
    situation, where we deal with people, company
    politics, alternative business pressures, differing
    opinions…
    An exam doesn’t give us that – nor does only 1
    project. We should be looking for a number of
    projects, with results and input from the people
    involved on how the BB candidate has performed.
    Then have evidence over a period of time.Davy T

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    #181223

    Darth
    Participant

    Luke,While we may have lost a few battles lately, the rebellion and all the good it stands for will never be crushed. As long as there are any of us left that care about what we do and about using our skills and knowledge to further the good of the business community, we will survive. We might just have to hide out a while but we will be back. Congrats on having your name hijacked. A truly high compliment.

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    #181231

    Nolan
    Participant

    Davy, you & C act as if there were at one time a robust certification process that has now deteriorated to “cheap & quick”. I disagreee. This industry has never had anything approaching a consistent, robust certification process. It has, from inception, been whatever the training firm chose it to be. Let’s quit being so pompous.
    Our certification measurement system is non-existent therefore the results mean nothing.

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    #181235

    Torrance
    Participant

    Hi Les – you seem to have disagreed with something
    that wasn’t in my post.
    I’m not making any inference to a preferred point
    in history.I hope I didn’t come across as pompous (apologies
    if I did!)- my intention was more to share what I
    personally feel would be a more credible process.
    My earlier post in response to Elanore was genuine,
    and asked to understand how her cert process
    differed from many others. The reason for the personal opinion on this is
    driven by your final point – we don’t have a
    measurement system, so opinion and perceptions are
    used.Davy T

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    #181239

    Nolan
    Participant

    Sorry, Davy, rereading my post I see its harsher than I intended. Guess I was reacting to numerous previous posts, by others, taking a position that certification has deteriorated from the “good ole days”. That’s silly. With no standard, there has never been a “valid certification”; solely certifications based on the rules of whoever was issuing it.
    Bottom line – it is really ridiculous to even discuss certification; there is no baseline – therefore it’s meaningless to argue/discuss which is appropriate anad which isn’t.

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    #181247

    Obiwan
    Participant

    Now I am truly jealous…Fake Stan, Fake Darth, now Fake Luke!  I might have to post a Fake Obiwan…just to feel valued!
    Obiwan

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    #181248

    Obiwan
    Participant

    I have courses that are accredited by the Jedi Academy, even with Yoda’s signature.  Guess that makes mine more valuable than the paper they are printed on as well!
    Online “training” has always bothered me…online certification…hmph…not sure it has any value.
    Obiwan

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    #181249

    Chris Seider
    Participant

    Les,
    Apology accepted.  I also didn’t refer to the good ol days although I’m well aware of the history.
    I could argue it is meaningful to discuss benefits from various deployment models.  Measures of success are measured in both absolute savings and % of sales savings.
    Not all deployments are the same…caveat emptor. 
    It’s not meaningless to discuss certification standards since the adds for certification or training are numerous throughout this site!  :)   I think it is important for customers to understand the differences among the “certifications”.
    Cheers–as they say over here.
    P.S.  Don’t worry about the harshness….many levels of excitement are found here and appreciated by most of us.

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    #181252

    Nolan
    Participant

    Then you need to check out the University of Phoenix. Perhaps the largest university in the world AND it’s curriculum is primarily online.
    Wake up dude…it’s the 21st Century. Not only is your name stuck back in the Star Wars era but so is your knowledge/thinking.

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    #181254

    Obiwan
    Participant

    Les
    Wow…what a concept…get into this century…jeez…you should know something before you speak as well!
    FYI…I was an online facilitator for UOP for 8 years…so I am, I think, in this century.  And…UOP does not offer online “training”…they offer online “education.”  There is a huge difference…and, if you were quite as smart as you think you are, you will know the difference.  Online education does work, online training does not work as well.
    Obiwan

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    #181260

    Darth
    Participant

    I also was an instructor for UOP. While a very interesting business model it is a poor excuse for an educational model. I would only recommend it for those seeking the diploma who have the money but not the time for a real education. And while Star Wars took place “A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.” you mere Earthlings are just starting to catch up with our technology so I wouldn’t be bashing our little Community. Most of us have been contributing to the Six Sigma community before most of our fellow posters even heard of Six Sigma and continue to contribute to its advancement.

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    #181262

    Nolan
    Participant

    OK, now I need some more enlightenment from you – what’s the difference between “education” and “training”?
    I believe I know your answer….but let’s play this out.

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    #181263

    Nolan
    Participant

    So “true” education only takes place when one sits in a classroom with 500 other people and listens, as best they can focus, to a professor drone on and on? Is that correct?

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    #181264

    Obiwan
    Participant

    How low can I go?
    If you need enlightenment on the difference, then that says it all.
    Obiwan

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    #181266

    Nolan
    Participant

    I said I know – wanted to see your take. But you’re likely right – it’s not worth it.
    PS: My position on training firms is they are really “education” firms, per what appears to be your definition. Now an in-house deployment may truly involve training but not consulting firm model…in, teach a few waves, issue certificaztions, bye-bye. That’s not training.

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    #181267

    Darth
    Participant

    Les,
    I believe that Obi indicated that he was an online instructor for UOP and that, in his opinion, it wasn’t bad for education. I was on onground instructor with less than 20 in the classroom, not 500. Education was provided via some lecture and lots of hands on examples. Speaking for myself. The undergraduate stats class consisted of five weeks of class from 6p to 10p once a week. Take out a few breaks, the required weekly exam and some early endings due to brain meltdown you were probably left with about 2.5 hours of actual learning time available. Remember, these are full time working people who probably started their day early then rushed off after work to class. 5 x 2.5 gives us 12.5 hours of usable classroom time. The model now calls for them to meet as a learning team for 20 hours per week. The team leader presented me a paper each week indicating where and for how long they met. Since I had no way of verifying the truth of any of it yet was required to turn in the sheet my self at the end of the week, I took their word for it. Yeah right!!!!! So how much education do you really think takes place in that time frame? Yet they give 3 credit hours for that class and some idiot in the Department of Edumation deems it equivalent to a real college undergraduate course. The only difference between the undergraduate and graduate model is that the graduate class is six weeks. So while this model does not reflect your stupid statement about education being only one which sits someone in a concert hall with 500 dupes watching a prerecorded video of a boring professor this model certainly cannot compare to a classroom of 20 motivated students, an experienced and motivating instructor who has the time to actually impart some knowledge. I will continue in another post.

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    #181268

    Darth
    Participant

    I am glad that you made this dogmatic generalization of all consultant training. I am not sure where you had a chance to assess and evaluate all that is out there but I’ll take a shot even though it appears Obi has quickly tired of you.Education is where the student is subjected to slide after slide of content from an instructor with little experience and knowledge beyond what is contained on the slide. This would be analogous to your large classroom comment with the prerecorded lecture and the student taking notes between nodding off. Watching the teacher write the alphabet on the board might teach me the letters but until I practice the skill of writing those letters, I won’t have been trained and will be limited in what I can do with my education.Training would consist of some slides and then reinforcement with simulations and exercises. Breakout groups simulating the activities you might find in a real project team are often used. Extensive use of “mini case studies and word problems” to reflect the type of situations that a BB might find themselves in are used to reinforce concepts especially statistical ones. A flow through case study that simulates the flow of a project and enables the BB candidate to realistically experience many of the realities of a project team and where most of the examples tie back to the simulation would contrast training with education. I can get a pretty good medical education by reading a book. It would be crazy to call me a doctor unless I actually had some training that allowed me to take my book learning and apply to the real world and to experience all the hiccups you never read about in the book. Almost all of the consulting models that I am familiar with consist of the training as I have described above followed up with extensive one on one coaching with the Belt to assure that there is some transition from the classroom to the job. This coaching takes place between training weeks to be sure it is being applied in the fashion it was intended. Online training and learning by CD accomplishes none of the above and I believe would fall into your definition of education and thus have limited value for a successful deployment.

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    #181270

    Obiwan
    Participant

    Your exactly right Darth…on two points…
    (1) I did tire of this quickly
    (2) you described training to perfection
    Obiwan

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    #181271

    Nolan
    Participant

    Sorry Darth – this has all gotten so far off topic I can’t even begin to pull it all together…online vs classroom; education vs training; project support during the 4 months of training vs multiple projects over a couple years; real certification vs piece of paper….
    I don’t even know what we’re arguing about anymore.

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    #181273

    Darth
    Participant

    Not sure anybody was arguing. While separate in nature they are all related and integral to a successful deployment. Here is a recap of my thoughts for whatever they are worth:1. Online vs classroom – Online good for non controversial, straightforward concepts that require no skill building or discussion. Classroom good for concepts requiring reinforcement, skill building and social interaction.2. Education vs training – Education, read it in a book or online. Training, practice and practice until you have the skills to support the education.3. Project support – consultant led for the 4-5 weeks of training and until the first project is done. Internal coaching thereafter.4. Certification – beyond some anecdotal incidences of pedigree, not much value now because of the variation and existence of hacks and those willing to certify anything and anybody. Will have value once a standard body of knowledge, demonstrated competency and experience is established.How did that work?

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    #181275

    Nolan
    Participant

    Again, just my opinion…but that is pretty good.

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    #181286

    Nolan
    Participant

    Why not?

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    #181287

    Torrance
    Participant

    Disagree!

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    #181288

    Darth
    Participant

    What is the real difference between having a certificate of achievement (after passing certain tests and accomplishing of a virtual project) and between get “certified”after passing a  certain Exam.?I’m really confused!

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    #181290

    Obiwan
    Participant

    Well-said!

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    #181291

    SandMan
    Member

    I believe Villanova and ASQ have certain BOK for SS

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    #181292

    Elanore
    Participant

    Please this phrase “just my opinion” is a copyright for Mikel Carnell.
    You may ask for his permission before use! 

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    #181293

    Nolan
    Participant

    Why not?

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    #181294

    Chen
    Participant

    No

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    #181295

    Nolan
    Participant

    No
    Disagree completely1

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    #181296

    Pal
    Participant

    Education is teaching theory
    Training is learning the practical aspects of the theory
    Hope that helps

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    #181299

    The phrase ‘just my opinion’ might have a legal imperative.Just my opinion …

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    #181300

    Torrance
    Participant

    FAKE Davy T – disagree with what?

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    #181308

    Darth
    Participant

    Dear Fake Darth,First, don’t post from a time zone that puts it 2:53am where I live. Folks know I go to sleep by 9pm. Second, my punctuation and grammar are usually perfect and yours was bad. Third, Darth does not get confused.

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    #181312

    Nolan
    Participant

    Now I’m being faked…oh, well.
    OK, Pal, I agree with that definition; so now back to the original issue. I see little difference between that various means of being “educated” in SS and in the “training” of SS. That is, one can learn the theory being in a classroom, reading a book, online or any number of other ways. They become “trained” in its use by applying it…which can also happen via a number of different approaches.
    So, to diss online learning in a blanket statement is not merited. I believe it to be the classroom consultants on this site trying to protect their dying breed. The classroom is disappearing fro a number of reasons so they discredit the other means of learning as often as possible.

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    #181313

    Darth
    Participant

    Or there is the possibility that the online learning environment is not proving to be as valuable a media for learning as the online consultants are trying to convince everyone it is. They also have some skin in the game when advocating for their bread and butter. I have had experience with both and while certain elements of learning and possibly training can be delivered online or via CBT it is not the panacea that everyone is searching for nor is there any significant research to say it is a viable total substitute for a classroom environment. The “number of reasons” you allude to are usually financial and if that were the only criteria then of course online learning might be the best solution. But there are social and learning criteria as well and I have yet to see research that indicates that a bunch of remote people conducting a breakout session via the computer has the same social value as a group of people working in a live group. Or that watching a series of slides or video remotely while typing in questions or feedback is as effective or efficient as a small classroom with a competent instructor. Please cite contemporary educational research from a credible source that overwhelmingly demonstrates the value of online versus classroom.

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    #181314

    Kluttz
    Member

    I’m not a “classroom consultant” so I don’t have a dog in this fight.  But I will offer my 30 pesos;
    What I dislike about online training/education is the inference that the “graduate” is in any way, shape or form a qualified BB/GB upon course completion.  Online consultants push that implication, tacitly or otherwise. As someone who hires GB’s & BB’s, I can blindly pick out the online-graduates two minutes into the phone screen. 

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    #181315

    Nolan
    Participant

    I agree with elements of both Darth’s & your comments.
    Darth – yes, we need to be together to learn/experience some things. We will be applying this stuff with people so we need to learn those skills; however, many may have them already & solely be learning DMAIC techniques. The discussions tend to think participants come with no skills at all and must learn everything from SPC to Change Mngt in the SS class.
    Union – certainly you are correct in that BB cannot be learned in 20 hours of audio tapes; as some tout. However, because there are some flakes, the entire multi-mode training/education mediums need not be lumped together and bashed. As with any purchase the requisite due diligence must be done.
    At

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    #181316

    Nolan
    Participant

    PS: At a higher altitude my point is: not all online, or non-classroom, programs are flakes and paper mills NOR are all classroom led courses competent means of education/training.
    Neither can be grouped and titled good or bad.

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    #181317

    q0!0p
    Participant

    If you want to be a professional engineer, you have to take classes and pass the tests, but you also have to demonstrate your capability over an extended period.
    If you want to be a doctor, you have to pass boards but you also have pre-grad internship and post-grad residency before you can be an attending.
    The bottom line is that even if you take on-line or live training, that no Six Sigma professional is going to recognize you as a BB until you have done several good projects… regardless of words on a cerficate or who it came from (including ASQ, Villanova, Moresteam, George, etc.).  After training you are trained – period.  Anyone can read the book, NOT everyone can use it successfully…

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    #181320

    Nolan
    Participant

    Amen.
    That’s essentially what I was trying to say. Thanks.

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    #181344

    Darth
    Participant

    Interestingly enough, I just noticed that the top ad just below for BMG now is pushing a “blended” model for training, that is online and classroom. We have been using that for a while and I have used it in the past. It is a good compromise for combining the value of each and is probably where many organizations will end up.

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