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Quality Manager has No Voice; Resistance by Mgmt

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  • #51796

    k
    Participant

    In these uncertain, tumultous economic times, I live day in & day out as a “pseudo” Quality Manager for a medical device manufacturing company.
    ISO (13485:2003) was “implemented” and I’ve done my best to perform my job as standards and my expertise dictate, however this holds little weight when the owner/president is not wholly receptive to QMS needs.
    Where I was once part of R&D meetings and a key component of weekly Mgmt (biz ops & trends) Meetings, I am no longer invited nor part of any input / decisions rendered.
    The mentality is to not complicate tasks with extra “time”, “paperwork”, or strict adherence to measures. The words “quick and dirty” have become a catch-phrase of the owner and if it’s not broken – he is not willing to fix it.
    Any advice?   I’ve pushed, but hit walls every time. I don’t want to lose my job.

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    #180609

    GB
    Participant

    You know the answer…

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    #180611

    k
    Participant

    Answer, as in “look elsewhere”?  Trust me – I’ve been doing, but which has proved fruitless in my location and turbulent times…. I cannot relocate at this point either.   Thanks though.
    I recite the Serenity Prayer on a daily basis!

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    #180612

    Nolan
    Participant

    K, another answer is you have to justify yourself and your efforts. For now, ISO is a bunch of paperwork. Lean and SS can be applied “quick & dirty” to yield direct economic benefits. We are in economic triage times. That is “pulse-airway-bleeding”.
    Lean your DMAIC efforts, for now. Apply tools as if in life saving mode; quick hits, don’t disrupt flow, follow it and make tweaks to improve things, more DOE on the run, less analysis – you need results.
    You can return to the more thorough use later. You better make stuff happen now!

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    #180613

    Nolan
    Participant

    PS: Get dollars associated with what you do and make the results visible.

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    #180614

    SandMan
    Member

    Trust me, the owner is cognizant of the QMS needs, as you have implemented 13485, which is an investment that the management team agreed to.
    Are sales tough for the company at this time? I am sure that he is looking at expenses and sees quality as a reason to ‘vent’. Companies have to be creative during tough economic times and as quality managers, we also have to be creative in the ways we ‘sell’ the QMS systems to our teams and management.
    Simply expecting management to comply with QMS requirements during tough times is very short sighted. Try and get creative and show where the system can add value and prevent cost, add more sales.
    Changing times means changing ways. No longer being invited to weekly meetings is not for ego reasons. Now you have more time in your week to look at other opportunities within your organization and hopefully find a little gem or two that helps enforce quality and your position.
    Keep your head up, suggest other ways of ‘streamlining’ processes and procedures to reduce costs and add value and efficiency to the company. You do not want to be seen as a complainer in this environment. Ask yourself why management thinks that ‘quick and dirty’ is needed? Having 10 people sitting in a meeting to look at (old) trends for 1 hr each week is ~1 man WEEK per month, wasted on looking backwards… filling out the reports for last week…? a waste.Simply whining that you are not included in biz meetings and that people are not saying what you expect them to say is tantamount to failure. Take this opportunity (free time) and prove your value and the ability of the QMS to adapt to change!Good luck!

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    #180615

    k
    Participant

    Thank you for your thoughts. I don’t openly “whine” by the way. I’ve backed off as I do not want to lose my job.
    This is a very small company – less than 30 employees (most of which are production staff).
    The culture has always been “quick & dirty” as the owner is stuck in the past.  The former CEO was brought on board to change things  – create more structure.  This lasted maybe 5 yrs? Unfortunately an “unknown” reason of his recent demise is suspected to be due to part in culture differences & money.
    I’ve only been here short of 2 yrs. It would be nice to get away w/ “quick & dirty”  (sales are slightly down, but in no danger – we all rec’d Christmas bonuses).  However, there are absolutes to requirements / docs when you’re dealing w/ not only domestic, but foreign customers….life or death products.
    Weekly meetings are focused on sales, marketing, & R&D – (R&D is the owner’s forte and “baby” – don’t mess with it / I was once warned over a yr ago.)

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    #180616

    k
    Participant

    Thank you for your thoughts. I don’t openly “whine” by the way. I’ve backed off as I do not want to lose my job.
    This is a very small company – less than 30 employees (most of which are production staff).
    The culture has always been “quick & dirty” as the owner is stuck in the past.  The former CEO was brought on board to change things  – create more structure.  This lasted maybe 5 yrs? Unfortunately an “unknown” reason of his recent demise is suspected to be due to part in culture differences & money.
    I’ve only been here short of 2 yrs. It would be nice to get away w/ “quick & dirty”  (sales are slightly down, but in no danger – we all rec’d Christmas bonuses).  However, there are absolutes to requirements / docs when you’re dealing w/ not only domestic, but foreign customers….life or death products.
    Weekly meetings are focused on sales, marketing, & R&D – (R&D is the owner’s forte and “baby” – don’t mess with it / I was once warned over a yr ago.)

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    #180619

    SandMan
    Member

    K, it seems that you are well poised for the future. Are you certified to 13485 or just self-compliant?Look at where paperwork is slowing down the process and implement / suggest changes and link to sales dollars / speed of attaining sales dollars.
    OTD performance >99.5%?99.5%?99.5%?Culture and ‘old ways’ are hard to change quickly, especially as there appears to have been a management change at your organization to the old regime. Keep trying as you will find the reward worth while in the end. There are many people on here that can and have offered help. Let us know if there are particular areas that you need help with rather than changing the masses. Do a 5-why of why the owner is a … well you know what … and see if there is a misconception that paperwork is seen as non-value. I am sure that a multi-million dollar lawsuit could change that perception very quickly.As you say… life or death… in this case you may have to make the ethical decision. As I mentioned, get creative, look forward, be thankful you got a bonus and sales are off slightly, some of us got no bonus, no pay raise and sales are off 45%. Perhaps you could clarify what ‘down and dirty’ means?
    Sandman.

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    #180621

    Kluttz
    Member

    You touched on the answer already – if the owner won’t fix anything unless it’s broke, then break it.
    Seriously.
    Sometimes a process failure is the only way to get ownership to address the problem.  They won’t do anything about a leaky faucet, but they’ll throw all sorts of resources at a flooded basement.
    So flood the basement.

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    #180622

    k
    Participant

    We are ISO 13485 registered. Owner’s mentality (I’m convinced) will never change – 25 plus yrs invested, but….on his terms.  Quick & dirty is a phrase he uses himself.  I first heard it & cringed w/ respect to R&D sketches or a proto. We are most non-compliant in this area- little “evidence” to testing / validation while products are flying out as protos to production.  
    Believe me, I count my blessings that I’m employed every single day.
    However, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to know I cannot “make” or help the owner see the error of his ways.  Yup, defeatist attitude – doing what I can.
     It stinks to have to re-do or start from scratch some tasks that should have been done at the forefront.  A big pet peeve at this time has been ISO 10993 compliance w/ biocompatibility. Our products were never tested, are sold Int’l, and to prove either substantial equivalence to predicate devices or undergo bio testing (another expense) is the dilemma.  Big embarrassment to not have this certification for new Int’l customers….how did they get by before me???
    Band-aids or quick-fixes…… not right.
    I’ve said it over and over in the past…..lawsuit potential for not having followed protocol….. Falls on deaf ears.
    Thanks for the support. I guess I just needed that and/or to seek a way to whistleblow w/out jeopardizing my job!  Yeah, if that’s possible…..

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    #180623

    SandMan
    Member

    Great response, but make sure you have a water tight basement as you want that type of spill to remain within the company walls. Especially medical. Also you will need a wet suit and snorkel as you might be swimming for a while.
    Conjoined is right though, in principle, force the hand. Be careful. I am sure that the owner has flooded the basement and yard a few times in the past…and is a good and slippery swimmer… ;o)

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    #180624

    k
    Participant

    We are ISO 13485 registered. Owner’s mentality (I’m convinced) will never change – 25 plus yrs invested, but….on his terms.  Quick & dirty is a phrase he uses himself.  I first heard it & cringed w/ respect to R&D sketches or a proto. We are most non-compliant in this area- little “evidence” to testing / validation while products are flying out as protos to production.  
    Believe me, I count my blessings that I’m employed every single day.
    However, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to know I cannot “make” or help the owner see the error of his ways.  Yup, defeatist attitude – doing what I can.
     It stinks to have to re-do or start from scratch some tasks that should have been done at the forefront.  A big pet peeve at this time has been ISO 10993 compliance w/ biocompatibility. Our products were never tested, are sold Int’l, and to prove either substantial equivalence to predicate devices or undergo bio testing (another expense) is the dilemma.  Big embarrassment to not have this certification for new Int’l customers….how did they get by before me???
    Band-aids or quick-fixes…… not right.
    I’ve said it over and over in the past…..lawsuit potential for not having followed protocol….. Falls on deaf ears.
    Thanks for the support. I guess I just needed that and/or to seek a way to whistleblow w/out jeopardizing my job!  Yeah, if that’s possible…..

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    #180627

    Mikel
    Member

    A Quality man who is not willing to loose their job will never do the
    job well.

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    #180628

    k
    Participant

    Sexist and unrealistic….I’m not a man and I don’t want to lose my house.

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    #180629

    GB
    Participant

    K,
    Stan is absolutely right.    It’s a hard pill to swallow, but as he, I and others have taken to heart, Your number one job as a Quality Professional is to work your way out of a job.   I’ve done this over the years…Done correctly, you’ll move up… Stan knows of what he speaks.
     
    From a pure survival standpoint:
    You need to do some stealth VoC on/with the Owner and nail down what is important to him.   And make it happen. PERIOD.

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    #180632

    GB
    Participant

    You have an excuse for everything.
    Face it, Quality is not your gig…Go be happy elsewhere, in a different field.   You will either succumb to the stress, or find yourself hoisted on your pwn petard.
    Quality is a rough and tumble game, not for the faint of heart, or entitlement mentatlity.

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    #180638

    Nolan
    Participant

    K, while there is some merit to what Stan and his echo, hb, say, these are not times to be so macho. Follow what Sandman & I suggested about finding wins quickly, monetorize them and make them visible. You need to help solve the business’s problems which will justify you being there.
    In a stronger economy you can be less compromising – not now; that’s utterly stupid advice.

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    #180639

    Mikel
    Member

    Les,I respect your advice, but you are wrong.Both K and Joy cannot win because they are afraid.

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    #180641

    GB
    Participant

    Different ethics for diff economic times?
    Constancy of of purpose is what will dig the US out of this mess.
    Recalibrating ethics/actions based on economic fluctuations is exactly the mentality that got the country in this mess.
    Remember our boom times?  “hey let’s loan as much money to as many schmucks as we can, forget te payback ratio…bundle it with some good loans and throw it to the next idiot.   Damn the torpedoes!”
    <>
    Bottom line, K’s conciscience is setting off alarm bells…Should she listen to her little voice, or should she suck it up and allow potentially criminal activity to continue?   Yes, that’s right, her silence could lead to crimina actions, depending on the nature of her company and who her Customers are.
    Les…your situational ethics are rally disturbing.

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    #180643

    SandMan
    Member

    hb is right. Document your dissatisfaction of altering ethics towards compliance and flood the basement… easy to say / post when you are not in that situation… difficult to actually do in this economy. Some good and wide advise here today K. Do your best and the right thing. There is no pillow as soft as a clear conscience …

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    #180645

    Nolan
    Participant

    Where in the world are you guys coming up with this being an ethics question? Where did I even hint at lying, cheating, stealing, fooling….whatever.
    I said be efficient. Like triage…this is an emergency time for K and many others. You do the most important things fast and you come back and clean up the mess later. I’m glad for you guys and myself to be comfortable. But K is on the verge of what many of my friends have experienced and that is outright fear…some are approaching despair. And you guys are sitting here saying “Be tough or get out.” You have no idea.
    Amazing how some of you are able to twist a person’s post.

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    #180648

    SandMan
    Member

    I think I was the first to mention ethics based on K’s response to life and death documentation requirements not being kept or skipped.Her story is still unfolding here…

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    #180650

    GB
    Participant

    To add to Sandman’s thoughts, Lying by omission is what’s going on here.  Cutting corners, fudging paperwork.  Her boss is putting her in a bad bad place.
    She can choose to stay and endure, or leave and be happy.

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    #180651

    GB
    Participant

    Your assumptions about our “cushy place” are just that…Assumptions.
    I’ve encountered her scenario often enough over the years, including the present.    I chose to document, collect supporting data, present the unvarnished truth to mgmt.   If they took the advice, I stayed.  If they didn’t, I left.    Sure enough, a former employer disregarded my ethical stand and now they are looking at Federal scrutiny…
    In my current gig, more often than not, when presented with a data-based conclusion, mgmt will concede.   One individual, chose not to and is currently being put to pasture and his org is being, “burned to the ground”…A direct quote from his VP.

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    #180652

    Taylor
    Participant

    K
    Want to warn you, that should a law suit arise, anything you mention over the internet can be used in court and will be. There are obvious ethical problems happening. By not complying you are as guilty as he is.
    Its one thing to have a job and another to be part of Multi-Million dollar law suit.
    I don’t know the complexity of the Testing and validation you mention required on the ISO registration, but I can assume if its medical, sooner or later an audit will occur. Now this is the real delima, as QA Manager, who do you think will be the fall guy when that happens?
    Regards

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    #180653

    Mikel
    Member

    Not sexist and not unrealistic – go get a calcium implant.

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    #180656

    Severino
    Participant

    A few questions:

    What class of medical device are you producing?
    How did you get through 510K submission without Biocomp?
    Are there any special processes invloved in the products you produce (i.e. heat treat, welding, sovlent bonding, passivation, anodize, etc.)?
    Of the devices you produce what is the largest impact a failure of your device may have (loss of life, damage to an organ, prolongation of hospitilzation)?
    Do you provide products directly to hospitals, OPMs, etc. or are you selling to OEMs?
    Do you ship your products sterile or nonsterile?
     
    If you provide the above info, I may be able to provide you some guidance.
     

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    #180657

    Vallee
    Participant

    K,Without repeating what the others have said, I find one suggestion missing. Who does the owner listen to? When the numbers/rules aren’t enough to sell the case then maybe it is the voice giving them. This person may be internal to the company or a peer to owner of the company sharing a best practice. Do you really need to be in the same meeting if the right words are being spoken by someone else?At the end of the day it does not have to be your idea, it just has to be done right. Of course you can always ask for written authorization from the owner for you to deviate…. it’s that old accountability thing.

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    #180661

    Reo
    Participant

    If you can’t change the owner, then change owner.It is not easy in this economy, but it is best to
    live with the situation till you find a new
    position.

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    #180698

    Stevo
    Member

    K –
     
    As you have already found out, 98% of the people who post here are idiots and the talented 2% won’t reply to your post.
     
    When I have a problem I usually ignore it, you would be surprised on how often they go away or I find out that I never really cared anyway.
     
    My advice – Do nothing – Check back with us in 6 months.
     
    Stevo

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    #180701

    GB
    Participant

    You know what?   Stevo is right…Ignore the problems and hoefully they’ll go away..
    OI VEY, STEVO!  ;-)

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    #180702

    Nolan
    Participant

    Now K, the question becomes – is Stevo an idiot (98%) or does he know what he’s talking about (2%)? The challenges never end, do they?

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    #180705

    k
    Participant

    Thank you. I just needed a place to vent and any survival tips.  I’m staying put for the duration; jobs are hard to come by and it’s not worth losing my home; financial stability for basic needs and those of my family.
    I’ve put initiatives into place here, but you can only lead a horse to water.  Many times, as you know, the horses pull away or flat out ignore you.  Perhaps they’re just blind?
    I’ve decided to research other quality cost saving initiatives & stick my nose into Sales/Service.  Customer misuse along with product maintenance & care are large, recurring issues in vendor to hospital relations.  The focus here is on trade shows, leads, free trials, and free repairs.  Inservices & on-site technical training is in dire need, but seldom done.   No proactivity toward preventive maintenance.
     

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    #180708

    Devo
    Participant

    Hi K,
    I know many of these guys have been QM’s for a long time.
    I am also a female and have only been a QM for one year. It would be great to have the hundreds of years of combined experience they have when I do my job every day. The truth is that I get my best ideas after everyone has gone home and I have time to think. Thinking cannot be overrated. I fought my way into the management meetings just so that I would know what is going on, so that I could find solutions to problems that only I, as QM, could predict from what they were telling me was coming down the pipe. Sometimes I win and I take time to think and come up with ideas that make me and the whole company look good (small company – ~ 50 people). They do not always listen to me either – but I am learning to balance the improvement with the cost and the reality that you were talking about.  We are all in a very scary place right now. I just bought a place in August. No way can I afford to lose my job. The comfort I give myself is that my efforts are not in vain, and that every small improvement I initiate adds to the quality of our output. As I am in a service company I know that your immediate problems are different than mine, and may have some legal ramifications. Put your recommendations in writing so that, should anything blow up, at least you are on record. I also use this forum to vent and to glean a good idea here or there. Sometimes these guys just rant and rave and I just move on to the next posting (no offense guys…) :)  Hang in there. We are all in the same boat as you are…

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    #180712

    Mikel
    Member

    Devo,
    Great advice, I would have you work for me any time you are ready.
    Just a point, you have figured out how to be pragmatically brave. You are not going to be set aside, but you also know you don’t have to win it all.
    You womaned up (I wold have said manned up except I don’t want the sexist card pulled out again).
    If K worked for me and I had to make cuts, she would be the first. The conversation would look like this –
    “What about K?”
    “I don’t know, she appears to be withdrawn and afraid.”
    “Well in these hard times, we need contributors. She will have to go.”

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    #180715

    SiggySig
    Member

    Some good advice on here – what I’m finding at my corner of the enormous company I work for is that while everyone talks about quality, they aren’t really anxious to have the quality team help them – that would mean fessing up to problems. Moreover, many of the process problems we have are due to impasses between executives about what the process should be. Not only that, the QMS people think that you can solve everything by writing a procedure – people will follow it because they have to. Right.So nothing gets done.As a BB in this environment, I have to keep focused. My main job right now is to find a way to deliver results that can be felt. No one is coming to me with ready-made project ideas, and the big issues we have are so big that I can only tackle a small piece of it. Or the suggestions people have relate to problems outside our part of the company, or have been around for 10-20 years, and the LSS project system is full of nice powerpoints and no real improvement.I resist the urge to complain that I have to find my own projects, and work with an MBB who knows less than a good green belt know about how to do this stuff. The system will not care why I didn’t produce, only that I didn’t produce. And I tacitly agree to this situation every time I walk through the door.”Adversity does not build character; it reveals it”Yay character…

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    #180720

    Devo
    Participant

    Thanks Stan!  One small victory at a time… :)
    SiggySig, I know what you mean. My company does not spoon feed me any projects. I am expected to figure out what the company needs and then figure out a way to produce the needed change. I am learning a lot by being forced to dig. Otherwise I would just sit here all day with my thumb in my nose. The employees are supposed to follow the improvements, but again, you can’t force it. Getting employee buy-in is interesting. You have good days and bad days. I spend a lot of my time forging relationships just so that when I put out a new process change/initiative my core buy-in is solid. I don’t know what to say, except buying chocolate works! Especially when it’s See’s….
     

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    #180734

    hbgb b^2,Could you send me a contact email address please.Cheers,
    Andy

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    #180744

    k
    Participant

    With all due respect Stan, all you “know” of me is derived from what I’ve posted here.  You have no idea what my experiences have been, my business practices, and ethics.
    The only reason I am not “sticking my neck out” so to speak is because I need this job, need the income, and there is nothing else in my remote location.  No prospects yet…..
    I have spoken my mind, instituted processes here, but was told point blank to stay out of R&D and stay out of Mgmt Meetings – by the President / Owner who is my boss.  The only leverage I had was the former CEO who was axed last year – for no good reason, but a power struggle between old ways and new, compliant practices.
    I will push things to a point, but do not deem it worthy to risk my job. That would be stupid and suicidal – unemployment won’t pay the bills.
    When you’re dealing with the mentality of somebody else’s way or the highway, it doesn’t matter what’s “right” or “wrong” in their eyes.  This owner is a people-pleaser and stuck in the past as far as business practices.  If he didn’t need the ISO certification or quality system at all – I would have been gone by now, believe me.  He knows he needs me but does not like me – feels threatened by me and the quality “laws” and “structure” I attempt to uphold.  I do what I can and document everything.
    You can’t change anybody, all you can do is change your outlook or look elsewhere. I am doing that…may just try and venture out independently as a consultant.  However, for now, I am living in one of the highest unemployment areas of the country and this income is needed for survival.  That’s the facts. 
    I have been on both ends of the spectrum. I’ve worked for a company that supported quality and allowed me to “run the show” (unfortunately their doors closed – automotive) and the next company I worked for was politically oriented and did not appreciate or welcome “true quality mgmt”.  I was fired for no good reason.  This is the 3rd place of employment for me since 2006.
    Look at your own situation and try to look around you before you hash out advice of what type of person you’d hire or fire.  You never know, can’t say “never” or “always”. That’s reality.
     

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    #180745

    k
    Participant

    Stevo may be right – 98% of poster’s here may be idiots.  Perhaps at the very least, they’re unaware of reality.
    I’ve worked for large companies and small companies…companies that operate under “normal” sound business practices and those who haven’t. 
    I have always been self-driven, know my job, and will take it and run.  However, you have to know what kind of people you’re dealing with in the business world. You can’t always get the “buy-in” unfortunately because there are reasonable people and unreasonable people. There are stubborn, unwavering people and crooked people. 
    That’s reality.  I do what I can. I don’t stand back and wait for projects, but I am cautious about what I “poke and prod” into.
    I can’t change the idiots.  Hopefully they do – for their own sakes.

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    #180746

    k
    Participant

    Stevo may be right – 98% of poster’s here may be idiots.  Perhaps at the very least, they’re unaware of reality.
    I’ve worked for large companies and small companies…companies that operate under “normal” sound business practices and those who haven’t. 
    I have always been self-driven, know my job, and will take it and run.  However, you have to know what kind of people you’re dealing with in the business world. You can’t always get the “buy-in” unfortunately because there are reasonable people and unreasonable people. There are stubborn, unwavering people and crooked people. 
    That’s reality.  I do what I can. I don’t stand back and wait for projects, but I am cautious about what I “poke and prod” into.
    I can’t change the idiots.  Hopefully they do – for their own sakes.

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    #180747

    Mikel
    Member

    Peace.I hope you can move to a job that gives you satisfaction soon.

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    #180753

    SandMan
    Member

    K,
    It is in tough times that leaders lead and the 98% fall as fodder or disappear into oblivion. Creating a clear and realistic vision for quality systems and processes that brings the needs of your co. owner and promotes customers needs is not something that is going to happen overnight. You have a sound insight (alot more than us) of what is needed there and it sounds like you are able to stand up and be the leader in quality that they need. Go for it! Your original posting was that there was a “…QM has no voice…” hard to believe that now eh…? Perhaps you had more voice than you thought and all is not as bad as you thought… This is an opportunity to shine and show why they chose you. You are adding huge values to the company now… Show them the “K” factor! Promote the QMS to mgt in a way that is not creating resistance, get creative (echo..o..o..o)At least 2% here support you 110%. ;o)

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    #180762

    k
    Participant

    Thank you Sandman for the kind words and support.  It’s difficult to find the voice, however, when your paycheck is in the hands of another…  I’m know times are tough and corners are cut, but you can never compromise the cost of quality.
    I am going to re-pursue ISO consulting in the interim.  That way, my voice will always be heard and if it’s not……oh well, too bad for them.
    Thanks for the encouragement.  Those who haven’t knowingly encouraged me have.  Hahaha.  You’ve stirred up the anger and resentment I’ve had for the past year with these idiots.
    I just responded to a half-a**ed directed email from our Engineer to Mfg, Sales, & Mktg regarding a design freeze.  I stated that I will not proceed on any tasks until I see evidence of R&D phases complete.  I directed it only toward the Engineer & the Owner. I’ve been shut out from these meetings or reviews, but I’m tired of “feeding those who only eat junk food”.  (Wow, that was a weird analogy….)

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    #180763

    k
    Participant

    Peace Stan.
    I wish all of us quality folks happiness and satisfaction in our quests for compliance…most of all respect.
    “They” may not understand us, but “we” are looking out for their best interests, for all, for the greater good.   Aristotle was a legend.

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    #180819

    Obiwan
    Participant

    I have not read the entire string here, but one word screams in my mind…RUN!
    Obi

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    #180866

    GB
    Participant

    Andy,
    Send it to where?

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    #180868

    Sorry, I thought you had a link from this site. The link goes to: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.urquhart/My email is at the bottom of the page.Cheers,
    Andy

    0
    #180896

    Dennis Z
    Participant

    The handwriting is on the wall.  They don’t care.  Soon they will either be out of buiness either by loss of customer or by way of the FDA.  Look elsewhere, been there done that.  It’s not worth the hassel.  I have found that when people are on a power trip nothing can be done to sway them.  Good luck

    0
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