iSixSigma

Red X Master, better Than Master Black Belt

Six Sigma – iSixSigma Forums Old Forums General Red X Master, better Than Master Black Belt

Viewing 49 posts - 1 through 49 (of 49 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #53068

    Darth
    Participant

    I’ve been hearing on many message boards that Red X is the new Six Sigma, is this true?Not much information is found about it because they have stringent certification policies, and you cant certify online etc. Anyone have any good information on this? Happy Holidays–
    Darthy

    0
    #187743

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Darth,Shainin’s Red X concept predates Six Sigma and is no more than a reference to largest effect. For example, if the effect is an AB interaction, he would be call this the Red X.As you know there is nothing in Shainin’s techniques that can’t be achieved with greater power using conventional DOE, with the exception of component search and randomized sequence.Stating that an effect is a Red X or a Pink X can hardly be called a breakthrough strategy in my opinion.The only advantage of Shainin to my mind is the absence of some of the contributions of Harry Potter.Complments of the Season,
    Andy

    0
    #187748

    Mikel
    Member

    Having a slow day?

    0
    #187752

    Darth
    Participant

    Obviously not my Post since in all the years of posting, I never signed my post and certainly not Darthy. So, someone else has misappropriated my valued name and reputation.

    0
    #187754

    Mikel
    Member

    I predict it will enhance the brand value.

    0
    #187757

    Taylor
    Participant

    I bet it’s just another version of Robert S trying to instigate an attack.
     

    0
    #187769

    Severino
    Participant

    I’m just curious to know how many Red X Masters are actually out there. 

    0
    #187770

    Steve T
    Member

    I though this was some new beer. I never heard of the
    name before. I had to google “shainin red x master”
    to get any useful information.

    0
    #187771

    Darth
    Participant

    At last count there are 217 Red X Masters

    0
    #187776

    Stevo
    Member

    218 – Stan just certified me (I got a deal).
    Stevo
    Ps. – Red X Master is so going on my resume (won’t be the worst lie)

    0
    #187782

    Jeff
    Participant

    My company uses both with the primary difference being Shainin uses the contrast between the best and worst samples for a particular defect to identify the root cause.  It is faster than Six Sigma but contrasting good and bad samples are required.  We continue to use both methodologies in the company with Shainin focused more heavily in operations and Six Sigma in design.  We have completed about 250 projects globally using each method and our best problem solvers know both and use the strengths of each to their advantage to complete projects.  It is expensive to certify but the Journeyman certification is well worth it.

    0
    #187783

    Jonathon Andell
    Participant

    Based on the message thread, it’s not certain who really posted this original message. If it wasn’t “Darth” then you should post under your own ID.Keki Bhote wrote a book called “World Class Quality,” in which he uber-hypes the alleged superiority of Dorian Shainin’s methods. If you can get past the songs of praise, he provides decent descriptions of a few of the methods.I find that most of the tools described in the book are very simple and powerful, but the conditions under which the tools apply are extremely restrictive. In 22 years as a full-time quality professional, I have yet to encounter a specific situation in which one of those tools applied to the situation at hand.

    0
    #187789

    Mikel
    Member

    That’s sad.

    0
    #187797

    Tierradentro
    Participant

    You might want to try LEARNING the methods the right way and that would be by attending Shainin courses.  Everyone on this forum would definitely benefit from Shainin’s concepts.  After all, he was the one that proved Taguchi problem solving was full of B.S. and resurrected Motorola, not to mention 100s of other manufacturing plants.  There’s no guru that I know of that can claim the # of hands-on problems resolved that he is credited with.  Many of them at the end of his career were correcting mistakes of “Taguchi Experts”.
    The best Six Sigma Black Belts in my 30+ years experience were the ones that embraced and expertly used Shainin methods.  They are much faster, easier to understand and apply.  All of his methods were developed from practical, in plant, problem solving experience but are based upon classical statistic principles … just put into an understandable and easy format.
    But do not confuse Six Sigma with Shainin unless you want to resurrect him from his grave.  He was not in favor of the Six Sigma philosophy and had very good arguments against it.
    The same goes for Japanese auto makers.  If one would ask Toyota engineers what Six Sigma was they would give you a blank stare.

    0
    #187798

    Mikel
    Member

    What BS.Shainin did not resurrect Motorola and his methods are out dated for
    the most part.Shainin is taught as a religion which in itself makes it pure BS.

    0
    #187801

    Tierradentro
    Participant

    Have you gone through or even tried using Shainin Tools?  I was a consultant to Motorola for a short period and they used Shainin Tools after he made multiple and significant improvements inside that corporation.  Six Sigma did NOT change Motorola… that’s B.S.  A new attitude to permanently resolving problems did and they did this using Shainin Tools.  They are NOT outdated and a statement of such means you have NO CLUE!!
    I have been witness to countless Six Sigma projects that approached problems without first finding clues or didn’t understand how to find clues.  Instead, many dove directly into Designed Experiments without really understanding the direction they needed to go.  I personally had to get involved in several projects and correct mistakes made using Shainin Tools.  
    Unfortunately, on 2 occasions, after personally resolving long term problems at our suppliers’, I was overruled because the company didn’t ‘allow’ Shainin techniques.
    Now THAT is total B.S.  In one case, their ignorance (a very large manufacturer of household appliances) caused delay of 9 months for a new platform.  They put a huge team to work on the problem that basically ended up with the same solution.  The team I worked with, using Shainin methods, had resolved the problem in 1 DAY!!!!

    0
    #187802

    Jonathon Andell
    Participant

    I got a sneak peek at some Shainin materials once, and I’m not convinced that they’re far from what Bhote described. He somehow was a master at protecting some of his stuff as proprietary material, and some of the proprietary stuff looked OK.Everybody alive can shoot valid holes in an overall methodology. That includes Lean, Six Sigma, Taguchi, and Shainin. That’s because every one of those methods has times when they are useful and powerful, times when they are not the best choice, and times when they are used utterly incorrectly out of dogma or mismanagement.Every camp has its dogmatic followers. For my money the best “black belts” (I hate that term, but we’re stuck with it) are the ones who pick up a tool and put it back down as needed.Let’s consider one example os what I consider to be a glaring flaw in one Shainin tool: pre-control. The Shainin approach uses specification limits to establish the boundaries among the red, yellow, and green zones. There’s nothing of a “classic statistical principle” in that – in fact there’s tons of reasons never to use “Voice of the Customer” for setting objective decision rules.The more “Six Sigma” approach to pre-control is to use the “Voice of the Process” to set those rules – yellow starts at +/- 1.5s from mean, red starts at +/- 3s from mean. Now the decision rules are indeed linked with probabilities of outcomes.Even so, the conditions for using pre-control include: 1) continuous Y, 2) an “X” that can be adjusted to create a rapid and clearly known response in your Y, 3) sufficiently high volume to allow sub-group-like sampling, 4) a process that can be shut down and started up in a reasonable time when you encounter two yellows or one red. As I said before, I have seen dozens of industries and hundreds of processes, and not once did the stars align to make those conditions come together.If you invoke pre-control without understanding those issues, you (and therefore your client) are risking unwanted outcomes.

    0
    #187806

    X A Rand
    Member

    John,Full marks for your comment.X

    0
    #187809

    X A Rand
    Member

    I’m going out for popcorn!X

    0
    #187810

    Jonathon Andell
    Participant

    I admit to being obtuse – what was the underlying message there?

    0
    #187811

    X A Rand
    Member

    No, you are not obtuse. It is just this topic can generate so much heat and smoke. I may as well pop popcorn and watch.X

    0
    #187819

    Severino
    Participant

    I recall seeing a paper from Motorola referenced by Andy U which definetely showed application of Shainin tools (although he actually developed few of them himself) in the achievement of the “first” Six Sigma process at Motorola.  I have no way of vetting the “first” claim, but I did find it interesting nonetheless.  I doubt also that Shainin “reinvented” Motorola, however the parallels between the DMAIC model and his algorithm are definetely evident.
    I will also say this.  Being newly in a position to hire quality professionals, I would be more interested in hiring a Shainin Certified Red X Master than I would an ASQ Certified Black Belt (if that was the only criteria I had to go on).  If you review Shainin’s Certification requirements versus ASQ’s you will note a heavy emphasis on project requirements rather than on knowledge based testing.  Fortunately, that is not the only criteria I have to go by…

    0
    #187821

    Mikel
    Member

    I wouldn’t hire either if that is all they had to show.One is a paper tiger and one is a religious zealot.

    0
    #187822

    Kev
    Participant

    Doesn’t sound like you have the hiring authority.

    0
    #187824

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Kev:  Shouldn’t stick your richard out where it doesn’t belong.  It’s likely to get smacked.  I, for one, can personally attest to Stan’s qualifications to making hiring decisions. 

    0
    #187825

    Kev
    Participant

    He’s in HR. That explains a lot.

    0
    #187826

    SiggySig
    Member

    FWIW, I ran a quick check on indeed.com for job openings with the key words “Red X Master” and “Master Black Belt”, nationwide (US).
    Score:
    Red X Master – 0
    Master Black Belt – 1105
     

    0
    #187827

    Darth
    Participant

    Kev, again a stupid statement on your part. Stan aka not his real name not only does the hiring but owns the company. In fact, he has previously owned one of the largest SS consulting companies and was a pioneer in the field. That was after he led major operations at some of the first companies to apply SS. So, Stan is for real and you speak from ignorance.

    0
    #187829

    Valenti
    Participant

    Hold on Darth – give him the truth. “Stan” was one of 6 guys who owned one of the original SS training firms – however they had to sell it because none of the 6 could be in the same room together after a few years. And much of the reason why can be seen in this forum.

    0
    #187830

    Mikel
    Member

    Wrong

    0
    #187831

    Mikel
    Member

    Kev honey,I’ve been in on the hiring of 40+ BB’s and MBB’s in the past three
    months. About half to work for me and about half to work for a
    client. Those that don’t show their pedigree or only have ASQ have
    been utter failures in the hiring process. I’ve only had one who
    claimed to be a Shanin Master and they couldn’t tell me the
    application of any of the methods nor could they articulate the
    differences and similarities between the two methods. I’ve seen nothing worth having from the two automotive OEM’s that
    have followed Shainin for over twenty years.And yes, I know Shanin’s techniques and still use and teach them –
    without the religion. I knew Dorian and learned the techniques at
    Motorola over 25 years ago. I know they are not what was used
    when great progress and learning was going on. They are just
    tools, sometimes useful.

    0
    #187832

    Mikel
    Member

    Just to clarify, it was 5 and only two couldn’t stand each other.The other three just didn’t know I was right at the time. Now they do.

    0
    #187833

    Mikel
    Member

    Same website ASQ CSSBB – 16 openingsASQ and Shainin are in high demand.

    0
    #187834

    Kev
    Participant

    honey?  You haven’t even seen me.

    0
    #187835

    Rider
    Participant

    Stan,Why do they accost you so?Ghost Rider

    0
    #187836

    Darth
    Participant

    You’ve been posting here long enough to know the answer to that one!!!!

    0
    #187837

    Rider
    Participant

    I was hoping someone who is an accoster will respond.Ghost Rider

    0
    #187838

    Stevo
    Member

    Darth,
     
    This doesn’t mean he’s not a complete idiot.  I think it’s more “even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while”.  I predict that he fails miserably and is forced to work for “Giganto company”.
     
    Stevo
     
    Ps.  The verdict is in – Apparently it was me who brought down the financial industry after all.  I think the insurance industry is getting too big for their britches, maybe I go work for them.

    0
    #187839

    Darth
    Participant

    Apparently Ken Lewis played a small part as well in the banking meltdown and will be forced to take his ill gotten millions and go play elsewhere.Giganto is looking for a new branding idol. Possibly you could apply for that job instead of screwing up the insurance industry. The Senate has recently been berry berry good to them.

    0
    #187840

    Mikel
    Member

    You just sound like a whxxe, so I figured honey would be right.

    0
    #187841

    Kev
    Participant

    Does that mean the master blackbelt hiring manager profesional six sigma black belt company owner would see his way to hiring me?  I am bowing gratefullness as I write this response.  Would you mind if I changed my forum name to Stan2. Are you sure you did not invent the internet? 

    0
    #187842

    Darth_X
    Participant

    Wow I did not know this thread would turn so foul?
    I was just curious about the mystery Red X Master(s).
    Can red x masters predict 2012?

    0
    #187843

    Severino
    Participant

    That covers the “demand” portion.  I took a look at Linkedin to see how much “supply” came up:
    Red X Master – 1,026
    Six Sigma Black Belt – 45,741
    Some of the search results are not necessarily valid however it does give you a relative sense of population.
    Despite the negativity from certain respected members of the forum I actually admire the rigidity with which Shaininites apply the algorithm just as I do for Taguchiites.  There is a bit of a heritage there and while I don’t advocate loss of efficiency or effectiveness due to slavish adherance I also appreciate the value of having people on the fringe of the current status quo.  To date Shainin LLC continues to develop new tools methods to supplement their algorithm which are not in the mainstream, but may be effective nonetheless.
    If the two automotive OEMs (who I presume to be GM and Chrysler) that used Shainin methods extensively provide candidates to the market which are not viable employees, I’m not sure that’s a fault of the Shainin methodology as much as the company culture.  This is very similar to the AIAG manuals which contain great information and roadmaps for improving quality, but delivered less than stellar results because of the mentality of those applying them.
    As far as the forefathers of Six Sigma consultancy go I also find that subject extremely intriguing so if you ever happen to be in the Lehigh Valley and wouldn’t mind a blitz of questioning in exchange for a free meal feel free to give me a shout.

    0
    #187844

    Darth
    Participant

    As well as anyone else.

    0
    #187856

    Zakeriya Ameer
    Member

    SSBB os a great non-sense ,without any value,only to collect money!

    0
    #187872

    Valenti
    Participant

    “without any value,only to collect money!” – hhmmm, thinking that may be an oxymoron.

    0
    #187932

    X A Rand
    Member

    Jsev607,I would be curious to know how many of the “Red X” masters were the real thing and how many are the GM knock offs.X

    0
    #187951

    Severino
    Participant

    Unfortunately we’ll probably never know. 
    I wonder if we could get 2 or 3 foreword thinking companies to allow two different teams (one group of prestigous MBBs, one group of prestigous Red X Masters) to come in and work on their top 4 quality issues independantly.  We could then look at efficiency in time, experimentation, etc. to determine which truly is the most effective approach.

    0
    #187952

    Mikel
    Member

    Interesting dilema since the two auto companies have been > 90% of
    Shainin’s business for the past two decades

    0
Viewing 49 posts - 1 through 49 (of 49 total)

The forum ‘General’ is closed to new topics and replies.