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Scrap 8D and long live DMAIC?

Six Sigma – iSixSigma Forums Old Forums General Scrap 8D and long live DMAIC?

This topic contains 16 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  Michael Ohler 10 years, 6 months ago.

Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 17 total)
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  • #51997

    Michael Ohler
    Participant

    When having a DMAIC approach implemented in the company and when the tools (Minitab or other) and people (Blackbelts, Greenbelts) are available, is there still a point in conducting 8D problem solving?
    My impression is: no there is not. Convince customers and all the other stakeholders! Scrap 8D, do DMAIC (5 steps instead of 8)!
    I would appreciate if anybody found objections and could point out where the error is in my reasoning.
    Thanks, Michael
    PS: Some background
    The most holistic approach, in this context, appears to be the one chosen by Xerox (see Norman E. Fowler: Lessons Learned from an Unconventional Design for Lean Six SIGMA Deployment):- is it a product or a process?- if product, is it development or problem solving?- if problem solving, then use DMAIC.So obviously, they do not use 8D, right?
    I have worked in a company which implemented Lean Six Sigma in 2006. Until I left, end of 2008, we still continued to use the 8D approach in parallel to solve problems. We did that a) to report on the improvements towards customers who expected an 8D-report if they had been affected by a problem and b) to also drive our internal improvement when DEFECTS were observed.Thus, in a way, we ended up using the DMAIC methodology for fixing problems and 8Ds when we observed defects. I have worked with both approaches and my impression is: DMAIC is more “holistic”. Not least, it asks for a “business metric”, a “consequential metric” and it requires the problem and the goal to be phrased using a primary metric. – And so on, not to talk about ANOVA and other statistical tools typically not employed in 8D (though it would make perfect sense). However, when discussing with “8D-folks” I encountered strong resistance (notice: they were not trained in Lean Six Sigma).

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    #182206

    Torrance
    Participant

    Michael, from my own experience – I believe DMAIC
    gets the same results as 8D. It’s about taking a
    specific problem, finding root cause(es) and
    appropriate solution(s).
    My current company uses an “8 step process”. I can
    overlay DMAIC and include everything currently
    there. Same can be done with 8D.
    Be careful, though, of using the debate of 8 steps
    versus 5 – the content of the steps will vary.
    Using only 5 steps might make it sound like a less
    comprehensive method. (Although DMAIC has 5 stages
    – it still covers the 8 stages from an 8D)If you
    need containment, use the Scottish version – D
    McAIC, where c is the containment actions.:-)
    I would say use one or the other. Having used 8D, 8
    Step processes, DMAIC etc – I must say I prefer
    DMAIC.
    Each to their own!
    Davy T

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    #182207

    GB
    Participant

    Why scrap anything???   These are tools.   Put them in your tool box and use when applicable.   It’s about tools, not “religious” fanaticism and devotion to a particular “sect” of CI.  GEESH
    Assess the culture you are supporting and use the right tool for the right task. If you find yourself supporting an automotive environ, you may find 8-D more culturally-impactful.   DMAIC, PDCA, the 9 step model, etc… can all be used as needed.
    There is no need for zero-sum positions.

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    #182217

    Sloan
    Participant

    Sounds like we’re all mice looking at different parts of the same elephant.

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    #182219

    Kluttz
    Member

    I was going to say pretty much the exact same thing (though I would have done so in a much more mellifluous fashion). 
    In conclusion…. What he said.
     

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    #182270

    Jonathan Leahey
    Participant

    DMAIC is usually an overkill of analysis for most problems. In fact, it doesn’t offer much in the way of solutions if the process is unstable.8D and similar methods use subjective tools, for the most part, to clear away fundamental hurdles facing the quality professional. In fact, you’ll find that the tools entrenched in 8D are the very same techniques used in the early stages of DMAIC and across parts of lean enterprise.There is no need to scrap any weapon in your arsenal. Rather, you should focus on the complexity of the problem and determine what, if any, particular methodology is necessary to employ.If you would like a matrix of problem complexity and applicable methodologies, please advise and I will submit it to you.Warm regards,Jonathan Leahey
    President, LCG, LLC

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    #182293

    paul Allen
    Participant

    I would agree with a lot of what is being said, I have had to use 8D in lots of my clients and most of the time i use exactly the same, graphs, charts, ce diagrams etc that i would have used in Dmaic, I’ve just had to answer/follow 8 steps in stead of 5.
    If you didn’t realise 6 sigma is based on the laws of physics and as Scottie used to say ‘you cannot change the laws of physics captain!’
    So as long as you follow the same principles 8D or DMAIC will get you to the same conclusion if you do them right. Most companies don’t though, that’s probably why you’re finding trouble with the 2 approaches..
    Paul Allen
     

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    #182336

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Don’t be a slave to any specific methodology (or, heaven forbid, some consultant’s acronym) – use the method and tools that solve the problem.  8D tends to be very general, but one step on containment is something that is not specifically called for in DMAIC that is usually beneficial.  The “congratulate the team” step can get carried away in organizations.
    Each methodology has something useful, use it.  I typically start with an 8D type approach.  If the problem stems from a situation that is unstable and out of control, statistical tools are not going to help – you must first get the process under control and stable – this generally is just good problem solving.  If the system is stable and under control but there is too much variation to a variable, then DMAIC is a good methodology to follow to reduce the variation.  If you find that you cannot reduce the variation enough (have reached entitlement, but that isn’t good enough), or you need to create something that hasn’t been done before, then DfSS is the right approach to get it done right the first time.
    Just my humble opinion.

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    #182337

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Davy T:  That’s a good one!  I’ll need to pass that around!

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    #182344

    Ron
    Member

    Wrong! If you believe that an 8D and the DMAIC process are the same you do not understand the DMAIC process.
    An 8D is a piece of paper the automotive industry created to define the corrective action taken as a result of some failure. While the words may imply a deep analysis the paper is a simple one page document.
    Following the DMAIC process you truly research, gather data, analyze daat to discover the true root cause of a problem implement a improvement plan and monitor the process…over time.
    Most 8D’s are expected to be completed in 24 to 48 hours…
    So bottom line what is written on an 8D form captures the essence of what the out put of a DMAIC process yields there is a world of difference in the methodology of how you come by these conclusions.

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    #182346

    Union of Conjoined Projects
    Member

    8D’s are single pieces of paper?  Hmm, I must have been doing them wrong for all these years.  Because out of the dozens that I’ve done, none of them were contained on a single sheet of paper.  Nearly all of them contained a project scope, action plan, stakeholder analysis, FMEA, RCFA, process map, force field analysis, control plan & project summary.  And very few of them were completed in 48 hours. 
    A tool is only worthwhile if there’s some rigor, strategy and discipline put into it.  If you were doing 8D’s that could fit on a sheet of paper, then there probably wasnt much of a point to doing it at all.

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    #182348

    Herb
    Participant

    We have researched the problem solving tools to figure out which one would work best (PDCA, DMAIC, 8D, etc.).  Toyota uses PDCA.  The best approach, I’ve read, is the one your company standardizes all problem solving on.  I believe a company should standardize on one problem solving methodology so everyone is using the same approach.  A common methodology will let everyone know what questions to ask, what approach to take, and what to expect during the process.

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    #182350

    Gary Cone
    Participant

    How do you know if you have reached entitlement?

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    #182362

    Ron
    Member

    As you stated you were wrong…Thanks for admitting your errors.
    I supposed next you are going to tell ne GM is  solvent company with a great future.

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    #182365

    Kluttz
    Member

    I’d be more than happy to compare & contrast my experience with 8D (and most likely DMAIC) vs yours.  Because it seems to me like you’re confusing an 8D Summary Report with the actual 8D methodology.  Thats akin to stating that I can do a DMAIC on one sheet of paper since I once looked at a project charter. 
    I suppose to can keep going down this hole, but I don’t see much of a benefit for you. 

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    #182380

    Severino
    Participant

    “I supposed next you are going to tell ne GM is  solvent company with a great future.”
    What an elegant way to try and step around your own foolishness.  8D has about as much to do with the solvency of GM as MS Office does with the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers.  Nice try, you fail, bye bye.

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    #182992

    Michael Ohler
    Participant

    Dear Mr Leahey,
    I am in fact putting together an overview: “right approach at the right moment” and I appreciate a lot the comments being made.
    Your matrix of problem complexity and applicable methodologies would be most interesting to me. If you want to mail it to the following email, that would be perfect: ohlermichael@googlemail.com.
    Best regards,Michael

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