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Selection of Testing for SSGB SSBB Candidates

Six Sigma – iSixSigma Forums Old Forums General Selection of Testing for SSGB SSBB Candidates

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  • #39193

    Cravens
    Participant

    I am relatively new to Six Sigma and am trying to determine what is the best approach to use for SSGB / SSBB selection.  Is the interview method best or does anyone use a test of sorts to determine current skill level?  If testing is preferred does anyone know of or have one I might be able to start from? 
    Thanks for the guidance- Fred

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    #118738

    Heebeegeebee BB
    Participant

    Try a search on “testing”.    You’ll see what many of us think about testing.  (not good).
    In a nutshell, the project results( Cost/Quality/Delivery) and exec outbrief will tell you what you need to know.

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    #118743

    Cravens
    Participant

    Thanks for the feedback, however I tried searching “testing” first and came up empty for qualifying belt candidates Any other feedback out there? 
    Fred

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    #118747

    Royale with Cheese
    Member

    Agreed, testing isn’t the way to go. In my limited experience people that score well in testing are people that are more worried about statistics and tools rather than bottom line results. (No data, just a gut feel)
    Again, I have no data to support this, so please, Stan be gentle. I would look for the following traits in a BB or GB. They need to be results oriented, have strong communication skills in that they have the ability to sell an idea, but they can also know how to be a convincing yet stubborn pr*ck when it comes to facing the opposition towards change (this one is hard to explain, but I think you get my drift). They should have strong problem solving skills, understand how to run a project, (time management, planning, know how to delegate and mediate) and they should possess an aptitude for mathmatics.
     
     

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    #118749

    Garrett
    Participant

    First thing I would do is go to HR and find anyone with an engineering or math/stats background and try to get them on board. The next pool of folks are the IT/MIS Graduates. I would pick someone that has a degree for Blackbelt for starting off a program. A company I worked for picked folks who barely got out of high school for SSBB and they were not as successful, while us degreed Industrial Engineers had to be put on a waiting list for training. Needless to say the program at this company is not stellar.
    My $.02
    GG

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    #118758

    Heebeegeebee BB
    Participant

    That may be your personal experience, but:
    https://www.isixsigma.com/forum/showmessage.asp?messageID=11751

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    #119717

    krishna M Mulabagula
    Participant

    Dear Fred,
    I read your message. Let me share my thoughts/experiences , which may be beneficial to you.
    Selection should be based on testing, reviewal of their research thoroughly . let me some guide lines :
    CSSBB:
    1) Certification credentials .. : Under gone formal training , which institute, period.. ONLINE or CLASSROOM..? very critical this is .Many people undergo ONLINEbut could not practically perform onthe filed due to non exposure
    2) No.of projects undertaken: No.of tools applied, explanation of projects , whether in manufacturing, transactional , design etc
    3) Questions : try to put questions on ANOVA,REGRESSION, MSA, TYPES OF DATA, SPC, DOE.. DMAIC vs KAIZEN approach.. explanation on sampling,VOC etc .. These are someof core topics BB should handle and cannot forget. And also software profeciency MINITAB14..?
    4) No.of green belts mentored, trained . No.of hrs taught etc
    For CSSBB:
    1) No.of projects handled
    2) Type of certification
    3) Questions on PDCA , SPC, MSA , DMAIC  approach
    4)  What type of problems solved , project scope , type of industry etc
    Hope this info helps to certain extent
    Best of luck
    krishna
    973-553-0481

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    #119734

    Jim W.
    Participant

    You hit on a critical issue. Hopefully for a new program you would be able to find someone with at least a GB certification, and as previously mentioned, a good education. I would initially try to find someone who could show me a porfolio of projects and describe/demonstrate statistical tool usage and understanding. Minitab has several “canned” projects and worksheets that could be used to demonstrate proficiency.
    It’s a lot of work, but the first is critical….Good Luck

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    #119787

    vin
    Member

    Folks..
    One thought went through my mind , as i was going through all the messages where, You all missed one Important point which is very critical for Six Sigma Implementation in an Organization.
    Top Management Commitment- Six Sigma is a Business tool to Solve problems to Improve the Bottom Line of a Business..
    So Who should Drive this and Define Business case for the Projects.- it should be  from the Top Management..
    since the an Organisation will have Vast Domans, Like Sales and Mktg, Operations, Ordermanagement, Accounts and Finance, Quality, Supply Chain and  a business case can’t be Achieved in Just focussing on One Domain.
    So the Deployment MBB should co-ordinate a Meeting with Champion ( Director or CEO ) to Define the business case and Target and Communicate this to the Head of Dept. of Each Functions ( Sponsors..) so Let the  sponsor Define the project and The Team Leader who can Lead this project Linked to the Business CASE..
    In the initial Stages of  Six Sigma deployment- Top Management commitment is so Essential to Drive the projects to make the Leaders come out from the Inertia and prpgress..
    It can be monthly review with Toll Gate review for Each DMAIC phase..
    its one of the Tough Journey and Perseverance is the key for the Management, Support MBB’s  and you have to keep pushing to make things happen..Once the wheel starts rolling, it can go a Long way..
    for any further info and discussion pls mail- [email protected]

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    #119789

    Paul Gibbons
    Participant

    Vin,
    How do you know we missed it just because it is not discussed on the forum? Could it be that you have missed something; senior management commitment to the success of a project is as obvious as the need to have water to be able to swim.
    What about the other less obvious critical success factors?
    Paul
     

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    #119790

    Mikel
    Member

    What are you selling?

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    #119816

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Fred,
    The only effective testing I have seen for screening Belts was a technique called vector analysis. I won’t even pretend to understand how it works but it was used effectively at GEAE, International Truck, and GenCorp. Here is the scarey part – at least at GenCorp the model personality that were used to test against included Stan and me.
    The analysis said who they believed were the best fit (based on the model personality of a successful belt) but it also included insight into how to coach someone who wasn’t as good a choice but you wanted to use them anyhow. It seemed to be a very useful tool. Assuming you had a manager who was capable of coaching.
    You have a lot of advice that is a grab bag of good to marginal advice to some totally useless crap about deploying the program that has nothing to do with candidate selection and is canned rhetoric that you can get out of a hundred different magzine articles. 
    I will guarantee you that a degree is as idiotic a selection criteria as you can get. I would be willing to make you this wager. Select 10 belts – 5 with degrees and 5 without but are informal leaders in the organization. We run projects for a year. Not only will the non-degreed guys produce more benefits but the projects will be more sustainable.
    This isn’t to disrespect the effort someone has put into achieving a degree – a degree definately doesn’t guarantee you success particularly when you select someone who believes they have devine rights to a belt position because they hold a degree.
    Just my opinion.
    Good luck.

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    #119820

    BTDT
    Participant

    Mike Carnell’s Apprentice:
    The series pits five degree holders – “Book Smarts” against five informal leaders in the business – “Street Smarts”. At the end of each episode “The Mike” will choose who will continue and who won’t.
    The final winner gets to follow “The Mike” around the world for one year at the feet of the master.
    My money is on the “Street Smarts” team.
    BTDT
    Mike: Everyone could use a good sycophant :)

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    #119836

    Dayton
    Member

    No, BTDT.   I wanted to be Mike’s sycophant.    I’m well educated, have done a lot of really neat things and I’m a very accomplished sycophant.  Some of the best sycophants are a combination of book and street smarts. 
     
    You’ve worked with him in the past and he probably wants a new sycophant.  
     
    Maybe Mike can host a round-robin sycophant-off.
     Vinny      

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    #119839

    BTDT
    Participant

    Vinny:We have to have dramatic music and a weekly nail biting conclusion to each task put to the teams. The whole forum can follow the fragile alliances and bitter betrayals.The results of these tasks will be followed by “The Mike” looking all squinty eyed and pouty before saying, “At a p-value of greater than 0.05, you have failed to show you are significant”.At the three-hour finale one lucky sycophant will here the magic phrase, “You’re certified!”
    BTDT

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    #119843

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Vinny & BTDT,
    You guys are ruthless.
    We can get Darth to select something appropriate from Yanni for the music. I would rather follow the format of American Chopper if I have a choice – (conflict causes clarity) . Graduation is at Alabama Jacks on Key Largo (if it is still there). Anyone brings a computer or stats book doesn’t get certified.
    I do agree with Vinny the mix of the two would be best. If I am forced to chose between a degree and proven leadership skills – I’m sticking with the leadership and put more pressure on the trainer and site support people to get them through the training.
    Just my opinion.
    Regards

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    #119845

    tottow
    Member

    To heck with the sissy-souding name (sycophant).  I’d settle for just being a good old-fashioned bootlicker for Darth, Carnell, Vinny, Phil, any (or all) of the Stans, BTDT, or even BOAS. 

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    #119847

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    tottow,
    I would rather have someone who told me to FO if they thought I was wrong.
    Regards

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    #119848

    tottow
    Member

    I can do that too, carry luggage, pour drinks, whatever.  At least you are receptive to people telling you to FO if they think you are wrong.  My current boss doesn’t share that opinion. 

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    #119849

    Dayton
    Member

    BTDT,
     
    OK.  I’m in, application and detailed sufficiently self-serving servile CV (I know Mike likes alliteration) to follow.   Grovel well my friend; you might have met your ingratiatingly subservient sycophantic match.  
     
    The plane.. the plane… he screams as he points his stubbly little finger to the heavens….
     Vinny

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    #119850

    Dayton
    Member

    Mike,
     
    Everything you said sounds good, on target and just the way it should be done.   Please let me know how I can assist.
     
    I hope that BTDT didn’t offend you with his crassness – I’d never do that… 
     Vinny

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    #119851

    Dayton
    Member

    Man…. You’re going to be tough to beat.  We’ll have to gang up on you early…. 
     Vinny

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    #119852

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    tottow,
    My luggage has wheels and I don’t want the chi of mixing my own drinks disturbed.
    Check out a thing called the Bay of Pigs and Group Think. Having people with the integrity to tell you what they think will only make the group look better. But it still isn’t a democracy.
    We live and die by results. Nothing less.
    Just my opinion.
    Regards

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    #119853

    BTDT
    Participant

    Paul Senior and Mike – separated at birth, or the same person? Sure wish I knew how to post pictures – you’d all see!They both enjoy having people tell them to &*&#@ too.
    BTDT

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    #119854

    tottow
    Member

    Dang, lost in the ozone again! (See if you ever heard that one?)

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    #119855

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Vinny,
    I took a job at Compaq in the mid 90’s. Nobody can offend me more than I have offended myself.
    Regards

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    #119856

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Vinny,
    That was world class aliteration.
    I’m saving that one but I will always give credit for it. This isn’t TATA Consultancy.
    Regards

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    #119857

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    BTDT,
    It cracks me up when Paul Sr. says “I have to do all the work around here” then walks out to get a massage. I guess he doesn’t watch the show.
    Regards

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    #119858

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    tottow,
    It is a familiar feeling but I don’t recognize it. Any hints?
    Regards

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    #119859

    tottow
    Member

    http://www.commandercody.com/Discography.html
    Yes, a familiar feeling in the early ’70s in Kansas.

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    #119860

    IE major
    Participant

    Hello,
    I am an IE major currently taking a Six Sigma class as an elective.  I have taken a number of statical analysis courses and I thought 6 Sigma would be an interesting course not to mention that is a very popular topic in the industries.  I will be GB certified once I satisfactorily complete the class.
    I read the information posted on the forum concerning the Best Candidate for BB.  I noticed that the overall assessment is that non-degreed individuals tend to be better candidates.  Why?
    Tell me, what advise can you give me, in order to be successful seeing how I will be obtaining a degree.   I want to remain open minded and focused when applying what I have learned.
    Thanx,
    IE

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    #119865

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    tottow,
    There are some memmories.
    “my Daddy said son your gonna drive to drinkin’ if you don’t stop drivin’ that hot rod Lincoln.” We rodeoed with Lucky Martin in the early 70’s going down the road in an old Lincoln with suicide doors. Had that on an 8 track.
    My daughter named her first horse Commander Cody.
    Thank you.
    Regards

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    #119871

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    IE Major,
    First go back and reread my post. I don’t have anything against a degree. The question was criteria for selection of BB’s. A degree will not guarantee you results from your belts.
    My post specified informal leaders as criteria over a degree. The stats side of SS is so low on the Pareto for a successful Belt that the degree doesn’t matter on most projects. Obviously you can get into a technology driven project and you need that knowledge but it can be picked up in your team members. You will play much better to the group if you wait for an opportunity to let you apply your education that trying to find a way to show them how smart you are.
    The leadership side can make a huge difference. When was the last time you said “Hey I’d really like to hang out with that guy because he has never done anything successfully in his life.” The informal leaders have an advantage in that they have credibility, influence and respect. That is typically a function of a fairly successful career, being wise, being caring, etc. That goes a lot farther in excuting change and getting peoples support than walking in with a powerpoint of your diploma and telling them “You are to uneducated to be a BB but it is ok for you to be on my team. Now help me understand how this process works?”
    I will probably get myself into trouble with this one. When you get a person with a degree in something like an engineering discipline they want to understand a process completely – that tends to be in their nature that is why they studied that discipline. There are times when you do not need to understand the process completely. Most processes are a “target rich environment” (Top Gun). Moving a process to 5 sigma when everything around it is 3 or less doesn’t necessarily make sense. Frequently the person with no degree will run the project, hit control, close the project and move to the next opportunity. Execution can be almost a non-isuue for them purely because of who they are.It is purely a cycletime issue. It is business not a science fair.
    There are several people who post on here who are highly educated and great Belts. The two are not mutually exclusive. Picking a candidate based on education is just poor criteria in general.
    Being a fresh-out can be a big advantage for you on your first job. When you walk in you will have no credibility and they may respect your position but probably will have very little respect for you personally. You haven’t earned it. It doesn’t have to be a big deal it is the same thing that happens to a consultant when they get to a new facility. You tell them you’re new and you don’t know anything and you will probably ask some stupid questions. When someone tells you that a question is stupid just tell them you already told them that you would ask stupid questions and move on. Most of them will take the job of helping you. It is peoples nature.
    Just my opinion.
    Good luck.

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    #119873

    IE major
    Participant

    Mike,
    Thanx for the reply.  My assumption wasn’t that you are against a degree however I assumed that when you were comparing the 5 degree belts with the 5 non-degreed belts, you were saying that the non-degreed individuals generally produced better results and therefore are better cert. candidates or just better belts in general.
    Working as an intern certainly isn’t glorious and yes people treat you with respect but you aren’t respected.  That is fine!  Being an intern or new is my opportunity to shine, apply what I have learned and prove that I am capable.  So I definitely get what you are saying.
    Thanx for the insight,
    IE

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    #119875

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    IE major,
    This should be the best time of your working career. You can say and do the most off the wall stuff and people will write it off to you being an intern. What a great opportunity to change the way people do/see things.
    I hope you have a great time.
    Good luck.

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    #119876

    BTDT
    Participant

    Separated at birth or one and the same?BTDT

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    #119877

    BTDT
    Participant

    Maybe this will work[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14817030[img]
    BTDT

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    #119878

    Dayton
    Member

    There are many ways to gain expertise in a field.  When looking at the field of Six Sigma there are quite a few characteristics, character traits, information sets, and tools that must be effectively pulled together in an applied state to be successful.  
     
    You need to learn the Six Sigma process theory, tools and when and how to apply the tools.   That does not require a college degree.   The most significant thing is the application of the knowledge in starting and driving projects and teams to successful conclusion.   The application of Six Sigma analytics and process management is where the payoff is – not just in the knowledge of the tools.  You can know everything in the world and still not be able to successfully apply your knowledge.  
     
    Some of the most effective leaders that I have met were and are non-degreed and some of the best-educated people that I know can’t pour smelly liquid out of a boot – and never will be able to.   But there are also very capable leaders with advanced education and incompetent people lacking formal education.  
     
    I think the real point of all of this is don’t take the presence or absence of a degree as being indicative of capacity to learn, apply skills and effectively lead organizations or teams.  
     
    Smart, knowledgeable, hard driving, change effecting leaders make Six Sigma effective – some of whom will be degreed and some not.   
     
    I’d like to see a longitudinal study of statistically significant populations of non-degreed and degreed Six Sigma leaders, BBs and MBBs, ten years after they started their Six Sigma project work to determine which group contributed more to their organizations and which subsequently advanced further in their careers and also if there was a correlation between the two.   So some of you who keep asking the forum for a Six Sigma thesis or dissertation topic – there you go.
     Vinny

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    #119880

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    It didn’t work

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    #119881

    BTDT
    Participant

    IE:
    The degree is not on the ONLY thing you need. You can get enough credibility to get into the SS program with leadership, enthusiasm and hubris, but you will get further in a project if you are guiding and coaching the team rather than taking the bull by the horns and running with the whole project. One of the best facilitators I saw for a finance workout session was a marketing/sales guy with little, if any, knowledge about Receivables and Collections. One of the worst was a CPA with an incredibly detailed financial analysis of each individual line item at the corporate level.
    Saying that you need all the science fair whistles and bells is as bad as saying that you have 20 &*%$ years of experience and everyone should do what you say. One of the hardest lessons for highly technical folks to learn is that not everyone thinks the way they do. You do not want to be the ‘stats guy’, but the ‘project guy’.
    In general, we have found it easier for a high flyer to learn the tools than it is for a techie to learn to be a leader. The usual first projects during an implementation are more about having people work in a group than have all the data required for PhD level analysis.
    After you are certified, having GB/BB in your resume will get you past the first checkpoints, but you can’t expect to wave a certification or wave a degree and get much attention beyond that. You talk about what you can do within a team and how you got the best out of each person without being pompous.
    Remember the ad about FedEx shipping?”This has to be shipped to the customer today””But I have an MBA””O.K. – I’ll show you”
    BTDT

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    #119882

    BTDT
    Participant

    This doeshttp://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14817030BTDT

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    #119883

    BTDT
    Participant

    Forget it, I’m no techie.
    BTDT

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    #119884

    Dayton
    Member

    jeeze BTDT,
    Do a copy and paste on the PICTURE itself placing the PICTURE in the posting commentary field and don’t worry about links that work or don’t work.
    Vinny 

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    #119885

    Mikel
    Member

    Hey Paul Sr.’s mustache is much better than Mike’s. Mike’s only looks that good in his dreams.

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    #119887

    Mikel
    Member

    You’ll be needing cut and paste lessons from Darth.

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    #119888

    Mikel
    Member

    “Onward thru the fog” – Oat Willie

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    #119889

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Vinny,
    That was a good piece of logic. Certainly more eloquent than that long winded thing I wrote.
    I have heard that Bill Gates never finished college (I did some Google time and couldn’t confirm it) but if it is true it really adds to the argument.
    Linus Torvalds is another great example. All the people shooting at Microsoft and throwing tons of money into the fight and here comes this guy from nowhere with the most unthinkable strategy.
    David Zamos is another one. College student and he takes on the army of attornys from Microsoft.
    Certainly a degree, in particular an advanced degree tells you things about the personality, discipline and tenacity of an individual and that needs to be respected. It just doesn’t seem to be the correct indicator of a successful Belt.
    Just my opinion.
    Good night.

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    #119890

    Mikel
    Member

    Ah Commander Cody – Down to Seeds and Stems / Hot Rod Lincoln
    Two real classics that you don’t here on your local oldies station.

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    #119891

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    You still have that piece of t-shirt?

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    #119892

    Mikel
    Member

    Absolutely
    Last time I checked they were still in business in Austin and had not gone the route of Ron Jon’s

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    #119893

    Habib
    Participant

    You don’t here or you don’t hear?

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    #119894

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    I’ll have to check it out next trip back to the US. See if we can get you the whole shirt this time?

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    #119895

    BTDT
    Participant

    Yep:The iSS forum SW filters out the (at) sign from messages to prevent trolling for email addresses by the spammers. The link must not have the sign. If you edit the link below, its still funny.http://www.flickr.com/photos/48518448(at)N00/14817030/I could use some cut and paste lessons, too.
    BTDT

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    #119896

    Mikel
    Member

    Thanks for the English lesson. Careful, it’s probably a full time job if you want to straighten me out.

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    #119897

    Mikel
    Member

    It is pretty scarey that the “ideal” Black Belt is modeled after you and me.
    I have found the better tool is Predictive Index. Funny thing is that about 75% of the good BB’s we know from AlliedSignal and GE have the same profile and it is not the same as mine and I doubt it is the same as yours (we can check that if you want).
     
     

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    #119898

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    That’s funny. Thanks.

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    #119899

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    You gotta admit that is an awesome stache.
    After I have been in RSA for a month and have been trimming it myself it looks pretty bad.

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    #119900

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    There is a couple ways to check against a model with you and me in it. If the test shows no significant difference you can either hire them as a BB (assuming that Jim wanted more like us) or you don’t hire them as a BB (assuming Jim didn’t want more like us). I never asked him how he decided.
    Lets check the Predictive index out. We can do Vinny’s suggestion for a Phd. Maybe we can do a JV Phd and you can keep it a couple weeks a month and I can keep it a couple weeks a month.
    Regards

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    #119908

    Darth
    Participant

    Wow, this was some active thread. Sorry I missed it but had to actually work a little and then fly home. Not sure what a “sycophant” is but I can certainly fill the bill as a “psychopath”. Yes, Alabama Jack’s is still there and the favorite hangout for the big yearly motorcycle run. Looks like the real Apprentice is a S. FL local. This morning’s paper showed the Trump estate she will be remodeling….WOW!!!!

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    #119910

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Darth,
    Alabama Jack’s is that mandatory stop on the way into the Keys that basically lets your body know there will be a funeral for several thousand brain cells over the next few days.
    You guys seem to attract all the big names. I am assuming it is more than the traditional Conch house?
    Regards,

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    #119918

    DColvin
    Participant

    Although I feel a degree is extremely important (advanced degree even better) when I am evaluating whether or not to hire BB candidates.  However, much of it depends on the industry.  I previously worked in manufacturing and many of the “sharp” workers on the floor were successful BB’s.  Much of this was due to a strong knowledge of the process and related problems that they were experiencing.
    I now work in the financial services industry and would have a tough time imaging someone without a degree being able to successfully complete many of the projects that would be required.
    Just a thought…
     
     

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    #119919

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    DColvin,
    Without understanding your business it would be difficult to disagree with any level of integrity on my part.
    Just a thought. Are most of the people in your processes degreed? If they are then obviously you would use more people with degrees just because there are more of them. If they are not why would you believe that non-degreed people, who would be as familiar with the process as the people in a factory, would be any less aware of the problems or any less capable of resolving an issue.
    The one thing that we find when we are in a “white collar” environment is that they seriously lag the manufacturing sector in a continuous improvement mentality. Most seem to believe this is “blue collar” stuff. They rarely see themselves as a cause of inefficiency or waste. In most cases there is more waste or at least more easily recoverable waste than in a manufacturing or a service environment.
    You might want to consider doing a value stream map just to see where your revenue actually comes from. Take a look at who is touching the product and interfacing with customers. Maybe you are just picking the wrong projects?
    Just my opinion.
    Good luck

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    #119930

    fsutculer
    Participant

    Right question.
    In my opinion, blac belt candidates  have to be selected via interviews.
    Required skills should be; system thinking, Dialoque&discussion skill, Comunication skill etc.
     

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    #119940

    IE major
    Participant

    Mike,
    You’re right!! I am having a wonderful time.  I have been able to do some pretty radical things because I am an intern.  But what’s even better is that my input, when I do have some is valued.  But I try not to take the whole “I’m just an intern” thing for granted.  This is also my time to show that I could be an asset to the company.
    But thanx for your input!

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    #119941

    IE major
    Participant

    Vinny,
    Thanx for the comments.  I like and agree with your point and I think that is what Mike was trying to say earlier when comparing the degreed belts vs. non-degreed.  It’s not the education that will enable you to succeed, it is applying what you have learned.
    I certainly do not feel that I am anymore equipped to take on a task than someone who has not  presued higher education.  I think what will make you successful is the ability to understand your task, and apply what you know to resolve the problem.
    Btw, your project would make an excellent study. 
    “Shot Out” quickly to BTDT, thanx for the message!!  The UPS quote is a great analogy.
     

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    #167083

    senthilkumar
    Member

    Hi
          I am senthilkumar From india , and I wish to plan SSGB,
    can u send the Infromations to my mail id.
    Regards
    Senthilkumar
     

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