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Shainin vs. 6-sigma

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  • #50926

    shawn
    Member

    We are new to Shainin methods and are trying to come up with a method to decide which tool box to use on projects (Shainin or 6-sigma).Β  Does anyone have a set of guidelines to follow when chosing a tool?Β  What type of problems are solved with Shainin tools?Β  6-sigma tools?
    Thanks

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    #175714

    Mikel
    Member

    All the good Shainin tools are part of the 6s toolbox.Get a copy of World Class quality by Bhote and go take a BB class
    from a reputable 6s provider.

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    #175715

    shawn
    Member

    We’ve hired a Shainin consultant and also use 6s tools.Β Β We are trying to come up with a method of determining when a project should be a Shainin project or a 6s project.

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    #175717

    Mikel
    Member

    It’s a stupid question. If that is the advice from the consultant – fire him.

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    #175718

    Putnam
    Participant

    Opinion, but if you’re generating sufficient data to really use Shainin, and you’re getting results, I’m not sure you’d kick in SS.Β  The biggest challenge I see with Shainin is having a process / organization that allows all the needed data to be collected.
    SS may be better in a “low data” environment. (ex: infrequent batches)Β  There are more soft tools and it’s better known.Β  Certainly more people are trained to some level in SS.
    If you’re not generating sufficient data or the right type of data, you’ll have problems with either method.

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    #175719

    shawn
    Member

    I know there are companies out there that are successfully using both tools.Β  We’re just trying to understand when to use each one.Β  For example if you’re not interested in finding all sources of variation in a process and only want to find the root cause as quickly as possible Shainin seems to make more sense.Β  But if you starting a new process where you do want to understand all sources of variation 6s makes more sense.Β  Is anyone out there using Shainin and 6s?

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    #175720

    Vallee
    Participant

    Shawn,To solve problems with the same data that you already have is the definition of insanity. Do some research on confirmation bias. Not saying that your newly gained process does not work however, rarely do you have all the right people in the room to use the limited data that you have and you will need more. However, take Stan’s advice and look to see where Shainin fits into your current six sigma process. You should note that both have some strengths and weakness in areas but six sigma should be the guiding protocol. This should help you answer your own question.To qualify, I do teach a root cause analysis but you will see (look at other posts) that I don’t push what I do down people’s throats as a sales pitch. My posts are based on learned lessons and human factors. HF Chris Vallee

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    #175722

    Bob H
    Participant

    Hi Shawn,
    I’m a long-term “practitioner”, and I agree that Lean, SS, and Shainin all have a place in the tool-box, but there are some areas where Shainin is “better”…
    If you have a product, that can be physically dis-assembled, and re-assembled multiple times, while changing individual components, then Shainin’s “Component Swap” technique is great.
    If you have product with many continuous characteristics (length, straightness, alloy comp, …) that has an output Y where you can separate Best from Worst, Shainin is good.
    Tools like Isoplot for MSA are an ok first pass but need to be followed up with a real SS style GR&R in many cases.
    Finally there are tools that are equally useful in any project like convergent tree…
    For what it’s worth, when I made motors and assemblies I used Shainin fairly often, but not much in transactional, process flow, applications…
    That’s just MY experience…
    Hope it helps

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    #175723

    shawn
    Member

    Thanks Bob
    Yes that does help.Β  I’ve heard that when you have good and bad parts use Shainin.Β  If its more of a process flow like you mentioned or a transactional type of issue then 6s works better.Β Β Does this type of decision tree make sense to everyone?

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    #175726

    Sinnicks
    Participant

    You have to be kidding Shawn – asking for consensus from this group!

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    #175730

    Bob Rome
    Participant

    I’ve found that Six Sigma has much wider application in solving problems, but I do use some of the Shainin tools along the way.Β  Seems to have more application for high volume part/ass’y issues where comparitive analysis is needed – finding the BOB & WOW & multi-vari for example.Β  If you follow Shainin’s recipe solely it’s a lot of work and may not be effective in finding robust solutions – better on the up front diagnostics.Β  Looks better on paper than reality.Β  Best to be trained/experienced in both (and other disciplines) and use what fits best for the specific problem.Β  Don’t rely on one over the other and don’t get too wrapped up in the data/tools –Β include the process experts as well to get a complete perspective.Β  Take what your consultant says w/ a grain of salt – he’s got an agenda.Β  Do what give you best results for your industry/processes/environment.Β  I’ve done ptojects in a variety of industries and found each requires a different approach.Β  PFMEA’s workedΒ wonders in food & chem plants.Β  Plastic inj molding required more DOE’s and stat analysis.Β  But all require untilizing a good team – remember Six Sigma nor Shainin doesn’t solve problems – people do.

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    #175732

    Severino
    Participant

    Shainin is a borderline retard.Β  Don’t waste your time.

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    #175745

    Fonseca
    Participant

    Hello Bob –
    I’m in the middle with a discussion with our Customer in regards to GR&R studies via ANOVA and ISOPLOT. I’ve been through a Shainin training several years ago and I don’t remember how to plot and or calculate the DR. Would you have some document to send me so I can review over the weekend in preparation for tomorrow’s discussion? Regards
    –Marcelo ([email protected]

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    #175759

    Fontanilla
    Participant

    Shawn,
    With exception of Tolerance Ellipse, ALL of the “Shainin” tools were and are “Six Sigma” first!Β  Shainin merely re-stated some of them and later, with the help of his sons, put clever packaging on the rest.Β  For example, the “trees” are nothing more than convergence or fault tree diagrams.Β  Isoplot is nothing more than a Scatter Plot.Β  B vs C tests are Tukey tests.Β  Tolerance Parallelogram is a Regression analysis.Β  Component swapping is a DOE.Β  I’ve actually written a training manual that incorporates the so-called “Shainin” tools, without violating their many intellectual property claims.Β  See Wheeler’s and Bhote’s books.Β  Montgomery and Box also have many tools you’ll recognize in the “Shainin” box.
    Your consultant DOES indeed have an agenda i.e. to make maximum profits for Shainin LLC.Β  And, once they are in, they can be like a virus that you just can’t shake.Β  They will tell you Six Sigma is “X to Y”, that is, supposes causes then tests for them.Β  This is FALSE.Β  Six Sigma, done properly, follows exactly the “Y to X” that Shainin touts.Β  That is, Six Sigma leverages the clues found in the data to converge on the critical causes, or X’s, in the process.Β  Be very skeptical of their claims to the contrary.
    That said, Shainin is not all bad.Β  They do indeed help you to use your Six Sigma tools more efficiently.Β  Just keep in mind that “Six Sigma” tools are the basis for the “Shainin” tools.Β  They bring very little new to the table, technically.Β  What they bring is in organization.
    Good luck!Β 

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    #175760

    Bob Rome
    Participant

    Ya wanna know the difference between consultants andΒ BB problem solvers?Β  A good BB using the Six Sigma process can take a complex problem and break it down into a simple root cause & effect model – and offer sustainable solutions.Β  A consultant takes the simple and makes it complicated, pointing out all the risks until you’re paralized with fear and become dependent on them.

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