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Shanin for Mimi

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  • #28898

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Mimi,
    You asked who Shanin was (Last Saturday). I did an answer on the original question but it got lost int he pile.
    Dorrian Shanin was a consultant. He was primarily known for the “Red X.” He was good. I watched him fix a 19 year old problem in 2 days (used a technique called component search – it is worth understanding). He took a lot of flack from the rigorous stats people about his techniques but the bottom line was he fixed stuff. When the ____ hit the fan they called him not statisticians and he delivered results.
    He didn’t document much (at least publicly). You can find most of the stuff written up on him in Keki Bhote’s books.
    His son’s ran training courses in his tools and you could become a certified Shanin Master. I don’t know if this stuff is still around.
    I hope this helps.

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    #72724

    Mimi
    Participant

    Dear Mike,
    I cannot thank you enough for your kindness.
    You always provide us a lot of ideas of  Six Sigma and other related methodologies, management concepts and how we should use, combine, think about them. I feel your comments are including many, many precious management view points.
    I could have realized that we have to crate one’s way  to use and adapt those tools and concepts for each company or business.
    In my case, there are a lot of things I must learn and study, I’d like to make my best efforts to do so, it’ll be great my pleasure to get you advices,  your further cooperation on this site must be much appreciated.
    Mimi 

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    #72729

    Jim Johnson
    Participant

    I had the distinct pleasure of hearing a gentleman lecture on Shanin concepts using decision trees in the first week of my Master Black Belt training.  He is at Ford Motor Company in Dearborn.  I will try to get through to him and direct him to the site so he can tell you what he knows.  Mike has provided some excellent insight.
     

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    #72732

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Mimi,
    Thankyou for the compliment. I don’t travel as much as I used to (95-97 we werw around 200 days per year) when we built the business. This discussion group lets me see whats going on without having to climb on an airplane. For the most part it is fun and I lean a lot as well.
    If I can help you with anything please let me know. Email is [email protected].
    Good luck.
     

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    #72733

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Jim,
    Thank you.

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    #72760

    vin
    Member

    All,
    The Shainin group has a web-site and also offers training in what they call Red X, Green Y, etc.  Various levels of certification are offered (I believe they go by Apprentice, Journeyman, and Master).  I don’t know if the training seminars are totally open to the public or if you have to come from a client company.  Perhaps somebody else has insight on this
    As far as the statistical validity of Shainin tools, I should mention that some of his more powerful techniques are based on statistical tools but were slightly transformed into more understandable and practical applications.  An example of this may be B vs. C and its relationship to Tukey’s End Count.  I’m not sure, but Bhote’s book may be able to clarify.
    I’ve seen both Shanin/Red X and Six Sigma in action, and if I may so, depending on the application or type of problem, Shainin may be a much more efficent and effective methodology.

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    #72795

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Vin,
    We were doing OK until your last sentence. The tools are the tools. The efficency is a function of your selecting the proper tool. If you made a bad selection the issue is the decision not the tool.
    I have frequently used Component search in the Analysis phase. I haven’t seen itin any books on SS because they are typically written by authors not practitioners (or people who call themselves practitioners because they teach class or have been a champion). I am sure that when I am working on something as a project on my own there would be a lot of “MBB’s” who would scream that I am not following the methodology. That is the crap you get when you have third, fourth, etc. generation people who are self annointed experts. we have always allowed the latitude for tool substitution and placed much more value on a person making a decision to get out of the box and try something different rather than become a SS Zombie.
    I think I got off on a bit of a rant. Sorry. I thought 98% of you comment was great. That’s just my opinion, I could be wrong (I watched Dennis Miller last night).

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    #72800

    vin
    Member

    Mike,
    Thanks for your feedback.  However, just to clarify, I would like to say that I didn’t mean Shainin was better than Six Sigma in all respects, but that it may be better suited for certain applications.  I think that for a well-defined, very technical problem especially in an assembly environment, Shainin, with its Component Search and other related tools may be a better choice.  Also, proper use of multi-vari charts can uncover important information, yet this is not that well-covered, at least in my opinion, in a lot of the Six Sigma training available.
    If someone is working on a transactional project or is trying to build profound process knowledge on a manufacturing operation, then I believe Six Sigma is the better approach.  In fact, I don’t think Shainin is even meant to be applied to transactional…
    I am by no means an expert, but the above is my personal opinion.  As they say, “If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.”  I wonder if the overwhelming poplularity of Six Sigma will obscure other effective problem solving strategies like Shainin Red X…

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    #72854

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Vin,
    The part where I spoke about the third and fourth generation etc is where it starts to get obscured because they don’t understand the basic philosophy of the system. They become some mindless Zombie that can only execute what is in the training material which is typically written by some person who can’t fix anything to begin with (if Shar is reading this you are an exception to this.)
    Most of Shanins stuff fits well in Analyze. This frequently gets translated to Hypothesis testing and frequently morphs into hypothesis testing tools for Normal Distributions. The point is to understand the x’s. Nobody should giva crap about how you do it as long as it isn’t something like closing your eyes and using the force.
    I watch a lot of this stuff and see things like people running Minitab and don’t know what the nonparametric testing is. They don’t understand guys like Shanin, Wheeler (does good stuff with control charts), and Keki even does some good things every now and then.
    I hate the people who coin things just to be different but I call these people Intellectual Bigots. They become so focused on one tool they won’t tolerate any out of the box thinking. Like any other form of bigotry it is founded in ignorance and stupidity. They just pretent to be different because they are doing something “intellectual.”
    How do we prevent it. If I knew I wouldn’t be sitting around watching the stats experts taking over SS and turning it into intellectual masturbation rather than results.
    Vin you have a way of hitting subjects that really wind me up. Sorry.

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    #72880

    vin
    Member

    Mike – No need to apologize to me (as long as your more pointed comments were not directed right at me :)
    I definitely agree with you…some people have a propensity for playing “buzzword bingo” and follow the latest craze as if it were a newly-formed religion.  On top of that, some people will have you believe that some of these “new” tools are groundbreaking, yet they are actually based on other tools that date back to the first half of the 20th century!
    I firmly believe that commitment to any new management strategy / technique is key to its success, but also think that this needs to be tempered with some common sense and an open mind.  To mindlessly follow a new methodology because it is popular is silly, to put it mildly.  I am a firm believer in Six Sigma DMAIC/DMADV, but also realize that there are other tools and methods out there.
    I hope that in some small way our discussion over the past few days has encouraged a few of our colleagues to explore those other tools and strategies, regardless of their popularity.

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