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  • #51074

    Alireza
    Participant

    I am a PhD student working on implementing Simplified Six Sigma methodology in food industry. What do you think about integration of Six Sigma and food safety and food hygiene.
    Regards
     
     

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    #176462

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    And exactly what is Simplified Six Sigma? Are you doing some research or just have a part time job doing some SS work in industry? If your question is whether we think SS is compatible with food safety and hygiene…that’s a big DUH!!! and not worthy of a high school student let alone a PhD.

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    #176464

    Robert S
    Member

    Actually Alireza, you may be on the right track dispite Darth’s diatribe. (Please forgive Darth, he just read a post by Stan…they’ll do that to you.)
    The food industry is using the SQF 2000 Certification standard as the generally accepted approach to producing Safe, Quality food products. Where I’ve been involved in that process it is benefited by using some LSS methodology; process maps, FMEA, Poke-Yoke, root cause analysis & a few others – thereby meriting your title “Simplified SS”. It’s a stretch but there’s nobody authorized to tell you that’s wrong. An improvement program needn’t follow a precise pattern – it just needs to solve the problem; as soon & as easily as possible. Some are easy to solve, some very complex and some can’t be solved.
    Let me know if you want some specifics & perhaps a food industry contact with whom to work…we’ll hook up offline if so.
     

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    #176475

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    Robert, no need to apologize on my behalf. I stand by my original question. What does Simplified Six Sigma mean to Alireza, not you? I also stand by my statement that asking whether SS is applicable to the food industry is silly. You obviously agree that it is relevant and I agree with you. Not sure where the poster is going with the question. On the surface it was silly. Let’s see what his/her response is.

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    #176476

    Robert S
    Member

    Yes, Darth, from our perspective it is a silly question….perhaps not from his/hers. Don’t know their starting point. So, I tried to provide a little guidance in hopes of illiciting enough further definition to be helpful.
    I felt it merited that….vs. “tell me six sigma and how it to deploy”. Those questions don’t merit a response….or perhaps they merit a Stan-type response.

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    #176482

    Robert S
    Member

    I think the best application of Simplified Six Sigma in the food industry is just wash your hands with Darth soap and dry it with a Stan towel.

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    #176485

    Alireza
    Participant

    Sorry Robert, but the Food safety is not just washing the hand. There are lots of defects associated with the food safety that are serious as they are directly dealing with public health, although, the industry is not high value. We have different caste studies and projects regarding reducing the defect and increasing the profitability in food service which food safety wa spart of that. The simplified Six Sigma that I meant was using simple tools and techniques in methodoogy which is understandable ans applicable in food industry.
    I think we should not have old fashion view of Si Sigma, as we know we can use Six Sigma in any industry an dit is not just using fancy names and spending lots of money. I have already read few jurnal papers about implementing Six Sigma in food industry as there are few food manufacturing and service companies that already applied Six Sigma in their process improvement.

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    #176486

    Alireza
    Participant

    Robert,
    I do apologise as I did not read this message. Thanks for your supporting remark. Yes, I think it is really interesting. I have already applied LSS in two case study to reduce the lead time and increase the tensport productivity in a food distribution company by using DMAIC methodoloy. The result was excellent as the company is applying the solution and the process is under control. I think the most difficulty of implementing Six Sigma in food industry especially in Food service is to define the VOC and CTQ as the quality perception of every customer is different. What do you think. I really looking forward to have regular chat with you in this case. Let me know if you are okey with that and are you regularly visit isixsigma.
    Many Thanks

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    #176488

    Alireza
    Participant

    Sorry Darth,
    But, I think you have got it wrong. We have been doing the research program for three years and my research is not just about food safety and is about to improving the food service and distribution process such as warehousing and logistics through six sigma methodology of DMAIC. So, We have already used simplified tools and techniques in DMAIC to reduce the defects such as lead time in a food distribution SME. We have in fact used the LSS. I have to let you know that food industry is not just what you think. I think you do not have enough knowledge in food industry. It might be low value industry but it is highly concerened industry in terms of quality. So, it worths to look at the simplified systematic problem solving programs such as Simplified Six Sigma to promptly reduce the defects in food service and food manufacturing. Moreover, food hygiene is just part of our work as we are looking to every angle in quality of food service. Also, I meant Simplifies Six Sigma as using simpler tools and techniques in methodology which is understandable and applicable in food industry and nit to have old fashion view of Six Sigma such as fancy names and spending lots of money. The purpose is important. Have you ever heared about “KISS”?!!  

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    #176491

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    Thanks for clarifying although you are a bit condescending. If your perspective of Six Sigma is fancy names and spending lots of money then you have no idea as to what Six Sigma is all about. Of course I understand the extent of what the food industry is all about from the growing of the “raw materials” to the processing and to the distribution through the wholesale and retail supply chain. There are applications of the simple tools and for the more complex tools. It depends on the circumstances. You seem to have focused merely on the simple. Maybe that’s a function of your limited knowledge and experience or a result of the company you are dealing with. So KISS my axx and show us what you got.

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    #176493

    Alireza
    Participant

    Dear Darth,
    Thers was no need to be rude. It was just respond to your sarcastic remarks, although you could be a littel bit more reasonable. You may be a Six Sigma expert, but it does not mean to make fun of the other people’s researches. I am sure I have got a lot to say in implementing Simplified Six Sigma tools and techniques in food industry as many experts have already stated that interesting idea.

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    #176494

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    alireza,
    You are a long way from breaking new ground. We did a deployment in 97-98 in a food processing company from the UK. Rod Howes did a huge amount of work in Oz several years before that. There wasn’t anything new in the application than there was in any other deployment.
    The stats are not industry specific and neither is the methodology.
    Just my opinion.

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    #176495

    Alireza
    Participant

    Dear Mike,
    Thanks for your suggestion. I never said that we are doing this as the first time in food industry, as I have already read some journal papers and seen some works in this case. I strongly believe it is applicable in food industry. What we are working on now is to evaluate its impacts on improving the Supply Chain performance of a food distribution SME as a food service sector. So, this is the matter of food, SME, Service Supply Chain and some lean practices. I just replied to somebody who believed this is not practical in food industry
     

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    #176496

    Vallee
    Participant

    “What we are working on now is to evaluate its impacts on improving the Supply Chain performance of a food distribution SME as a food service sector.”Part of using KISS is to be concise, not keep the tools/process simple minded. Because you kept it too simple and non-specific, your initial question encouraged your responses. The statement above would have generated a post to look at case studies in integrated supply chains using six sigma. This is not new to your industry. You were just unaware.HF Chris Vallee

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    #176498

    Szentannai
    Member

    Hi Alireza,
    I think you’re asking the wrong question. For me the really interesting question to you would be: “Why do you think that Six Sigma needs to be simplified in the food industry?
    I would personally be very worried if it turned out that the food industry is somehow structuraly unable to use more complex tools (I presume you mean statistics, MSA and the like) and I really hope that this is not the case.
    BTW the most enthusiastic audience I ever had for a DOE training was coming from a cookie manufacturer.
    Regards
    Sandor 

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    #176499

    Alireza
    Participant

    Can you explain more that in which area spicificlly you worked. Have you worked in reducing the lead time or supplier development or reducing the food safety hazards? Are you using the belt structure, if so up to which level. Have you spent lots of money in training? Are you using any integrated model of Supply Chain objectives, lean and six sigma? Have you published any journal paper or case study?
     
     

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    #176500

    Robert S
    Member

    Alireza, what did I say about “washing hands”? Nothing!
    I said there is a standard in the food industry that deals with both safety & quality of food products – SQF 2000. You did not respond to that statement showing your knowledge of SQF – you’re a fake; you’re not associated with the food industry or you would have been on that immediately.
    See ya!

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    #176501

    Robert S
    Member

    What? You first responded to me without reading my post? Then want to move forward?
    No. I’ll stay with my last statement.
    See ya!

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    #176502

    Alireza
    Participant

    Dear Sandor,
    I meant using simplified tools and technologies which can be applied by an appropriate persons within the small teams in the SME to do the small projects in a food SME but with huge potential financial impacts. So, like a Green Belt equivalant as the team or peoject leader. So, do you think that using less complicated tools along side a good experience in industry and a good team working can continuously assure the success of the Six Sigma projects in a Food Distribution SME with limitted training and development resources?

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    #176508

    Vallee
    Participant

    I am going to let you do some homework. Search this forum and linkedin and you will find my background and focus. It appears that you are at a loss on how to transfer knowledge of six sigma best practices to this industry which means that you do not understand the six sigma or lean process. All industries have an integrated supply chain that must be utilized and examined. I also suggest that you explain what you see as problems in your current applied industry and ask specific questions. Anything less will be a waste of time and show that you have not done your homework. Can you compare Taco Bell’s supply stream with your local deli? Do you understand food wastes? Do you understand improving safety and efficiency at the same time? Do you understand the critical path and delayed product lead time? Do you understand quality of food to the customer and your core competencies in the market? Have you wasted money in a lean project just to find out it had a negative impact to another department or customer? Now don’t these questions just apply to the food industry….NO! Do your homework and realize that you are missing the fundamentals before you question the credibility of others and their knowledge. Read in between the lines of most of the posters to see what they are really saying.HF Chris ValleeHF Chris Vallee

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    #176510

    doost e aziz
    Participant

    Hey Sandor,
    I have worked in food industry long time ago, you have raised a good question, “Why do you think that Six Sigma needs to be simplified in the food industry?”
    The answer is very simple after reading these posts, it seems real Six Sigma is too much for simple people in food industry.
    I am realy intrested to know where Alireza is getting his PHD? “Azad” university perhaps.
    doost-e aziz
     

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    #176511

    Alireza
    Participant

    Dear Chris,
    Let me tell you something. We have implemented one Six Sigma project last year to reduce the delivery lead time and we managed to save up to £ 30,000 of customer loss due to delivery lead time in a very tense food service market. We have done this through process redesign in previous process which was loading process resulting in reducing the lead time of delivery. We are also working to rectify the link between many food safety programs or technologies with the six sigma tools as the facilitators (HACCP and FMEA or Traceability and Cause & Effect analysis)

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    #176512

    Alireza
    Participant

    Hey douste aziz,
    Before showing off , you are better to go and read what the simplified six sigma is. I think you have the conceptual problems. Go and read Jay Arthur articles. So, is your food company prepared to spend lots of money in six sigma. How much is the company’s turn over. Simplified six sigma means focusing on perpose and methodology rather than any thing else. So, got it?

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    #176513

    doost e aziz
    Participant

    Dear Alireza,
    Based on every Six Sigma book, training, news, ….. every BB in avarage saves $250K in a year. youe simplifid LSS just did 30,000. and this 30K was not real money, it was saving on customer lost opportunity, am I right?
    I think you are delusional, you have mistaken the Food Industry technology with Rocket science.  Cooking and packaging is not very difficult, all the pizza stores in my nationhood are doing it without having PHD.
    Everybody, please note that the only business which can not afford losing customer is the “Food Industry” wow !!!
    Cheers 
     

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    #176514

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    Sorry Alireza, you just blew any credibility by quoting Jay Arthur as your expert source of information. While he has created a neat little Excel based software program for doing simple stat stuff, he has zero recognition and credibility in the field of Six Sigma. Plus he is self serving in his promotion of Simple Six Sigma since that is all he has the capability to deliver. Here is a link to one of his books….give me a friggin break….a coloring book????? You diminish the value of the people you work for, yourself and the rest of the world’s six sigma professionals.http://www.amazon.com/Six-Sigma-Simplified-Coloring-Bks/dp/1884180132/ref=pd_sim_b_1

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    #176519

    Alireza
    Participant

    Dear Douste aziz,
    That £30,000 saving was the result of a five months project and it was part of ongoing program.So, it was not just one off saving in ayear as some more projects have been carrie dout in one year. It wa sjust one example. Moreover, the implementing six sigma is not just saving bilions in big companies. Ofcourse, £30,000 is impressive for the shareholders of the company with £4M turnover. So, I think I was right thinking that you are drawn in your fancy world of Six Sigma that belive six sigma is just for the big companies with big spendings. Go and look at how many SMEs implement six sigma. Also, I am not doing my research in Pizza shop. I am doing it in a food distribution company and I think it is better to remind you that it has different complicated processes as a food service company. Sorry, but I think you have the mentality of a takeaway staff not an academic person. Because you just think food industry is just pizza shop. have you just had your pizza last night. You might have read afew books or notes about six sigma but do not consider yourself as somebody who can critisize any body else, just because they work in an industry that you have no sense aboth it what so ever!!!.

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    #176525

    Vallee
    Participant

    A little less condescending which is better; however what is your specific problem with using the existing DMAIC or DFSS processes? Even the limited reading information of the book you quoted states to define your problem, prioritize, and work on the specific needs of the company. That is the process and it does not say to make it simpler and to take shortcuts. If you don’t to this, of course your going to waste money because you didn’t use the process correctly by taking shortcuts. You didn’t understand that reducing variation in a process and increasing your production of meatballs exceeded your product flow of individual cans and cases and spoiled before it reached the customer. KISS must be focused, concise, and correct.

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    #176529

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    HF, I found the food poster’s website and even have a pic of him. Check out the link and you will see a pic right on the front of the website.http://www.dominos.co.in/about_dominos.jsp

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    #176533

    Vallee
    Participant

     
    Darth,
    Hey…. I used to work for them when the military paid me big bucks as an Airman. You making fun of me? :)
    Still having trouble posting pictures?

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    #176536

    Szentannai
    Member

    Hi Alireza,
    I strongly think that you need to pick the right tools for each problem. Of course you will find in every industry problems thatcan be solved with a reduced set of tools (and I suppose you will find a majority of such problems at beginning of a Six Sigma introduction). Focusing on a simplified version of six sigma would mean to me that you consciously limit yourself to the simple problems. This could be a valid choice for a company not willing to invest much and being OK with getting limited results in return.
    On the other hand it would clearly be a swindle to sell this as something that delivers ALL the benefits of Six Sigma for a fraction of the cost. 
    Regards
    Sandor

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    #176537

    Clive
    Participant

    Can I ask why you think full six sigma is expensive? or do you think that full six sigma requires consultancies and expensive training?
    For my experience they don’t need to cost a great deal. Get a decent BB who can run projects and train staff and they easily make a return on your money.
    On using a sub set of the tools on a project this is what we all do but we start with understanding the full set so we can decide which ones to use. If you don’t know thw full set how do you know if your using the correct tool for the job. If you don’t you end up fixing the world with gaffer tape and a hammar.

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    #176539

    Severino
    Participant

    Just for the record, I believe that gaffer’s tape has solved more problems than six sigma.  Plus it’s so fun to rip!

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    #176552

    Robert S
    Member

    Clive, when you say “Get a decent BB who can run projects and train staff “, do you presume every BB brings with them the intellectual property, the course work, to train the various levels of belts?

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    #176556

    Clive
    Participant

    I think most BB’s have collected/ developed one or more sets of training material which they have adapted for their specific company, building in a running scenario, examples which works for the company.
    and if they don’t I know that you can licence these at a very reasonable price to use from third parties.
    In most cases the expense to the company is in taking people away from their day jobs. In a small company you may have to trust your BB and run small just in time training sessions while you build up a base of knowledge as part of the projects and impetus in the company and then once you’ve created savinging in the company fill the gaps in your chosen GB’s at this point you should have created time for them to do this in. You will also have seen the people work and know which ones are worth taking forward.

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    #176560

    Robert S
    Member

    Clive, I agree wholeheartedly with the training regime you describe. That approach, versus major deployment with massive training, will be beneficial for probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 99% of the companies in the world.
    My experience, outside the Fortune 5000, is GB and below skill sets will be capable of solving nearly every problem the majority of businesses have.
    My point is a company hiring a BB for internal training better be careful of the origin of the IP a BB would use. Because a guy got trained at GE or was an instructor at BMG, he/she DOES NOT own the coursework. So, if they show up with it, the hiring company may be putting itself in jeopardy. Better be certain the IP being used has been acquired legitimately.

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    #176569

    Severino
    Participant

    The only time anyone would care is if the company the GB went to did business with GE.  Let’s be real.  Most of the tools in the SS toolbox existed long before SS.  True, it brings them together in an organized way and presents a roadmap for their use, but that stuff is so widely publicized at this point that you would be very hard pressed not to pick up almost any book on process improvement or quality and stumble over it. 
    Before everyone gets hung up over IP, does anyone know any SS cases that have gone to court?  What was the result?

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    #176571

    Robert S
    Member

    Jsev607, I believe you’re taking far too a narrow view of the IP world. I assure you if an employee or contractor for BMG tried to use BMG’s course material outside their organization, Dave Silverstien would have them in court in a heartbeat.
    IP laws are abused regularly without recourse, however, if pursued they are easily proven. I’m just making a point that as the little guys outside the Fortune 5000 get into this they had better be aware of the IP violation risk.

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    #176573

    Jay Arthur
    Participant

    Darth,
    I found your response somewhat unprofessional. I’m on a mission to convert as many businesses and employees as possible to the improvement methods embodied in Lean Six Sigma. The only way I know to do that is to make it as easy as possible to take that first step into learning the methods and tools.
    Instead of trying to make everyone a statistician, a green belt, a black belt or MBB, I’d like more people to become moneybelts who can find and save lost profit in their organization. That’s why I originally created the QI Coloring Books, to take a non-threatening approach to Six Sigma. Based on customer feedback, those books evolved into Six Sigma Simplified.
    I’ve had Black Belts tell me that after 5-20 days of training, they give their graduates one of my books like Lean Six Sigma Demystified or The Guerrilla Guide to Six Sigma and tell them: “This is how to implement what you’ve learned.” It’s also why I created the QI Macros for Excel, to make it easy to create most of the charts and graphs to start making progress.
    Traditional Lean Six Sigma training usually covers too much material. As Robert suggests in a later post in this thread, you don’t need to know everything to start making progress. You only need to know a handful of methods and tools. I call it Lean Six Sigma Simplified. And I don’t license the material, I give it away with the software.
    I have found that most people are terrified of math, statistics and computers. If we don’t make it easy for them to dip their toe in the warm, inviting waters of Lean Six Sigma, then shame on us.
    I have found that the Lean Six Sigma purists and statistical know-it-alls are impeding the success of Lean Six Sigma. I can’t tell you how many employees I talk to that are afraid that someone will challenge their data or their analysis, so they don’t do anything. And that’s sad. Tremendous opportunities await even simple analysis.
    You’d hate my new book, Double Your Profits, because it doesn’t contain ANY Lean Six Sigma jargon or formulas.
    By your post, I can tell I’ve irked you in some way. Too bad. At least my clients are making progress. If I’ve diminished you in some way, I’m sorry.

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    #176574

    Robert S
    Member

    Jay, don’t expect a great deal of logic or innovative thinking here. For the most part this is old school stuff stuck in the 90’s. Only full time BB’s in the position for 2 years can accomplish anything and there are only 50 true MBB’s in the world who Stan himself trained….everybody else is an idiot. Darth is more pragmatic however the majority of the regulars are as I’ve described.
    I know, I sound bitter…guess I am. I’ve tried to use logic on a number of issues and continue to be ridiculed and insulted by the ole boys. I keep plugging though in hopes that those here truly trying to learn something….just may. Good luck.

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    #176579

    Severino
    Participant

    First, the situation for BMG is a bit different since as a consultant their business is basically SS while GE’s business is products and services and uses SS as a tool.  Second, While BMG might go directly to court if they found out, consider the likelihood they would even be able to discover their IP was taken.  Finally, assuming they discovered such an instance what is the probability they would actually win given the dispersion of SS information.  All a BB would need to do is change a few slides and worked examples, supplement with a bit of their own material and voila! no more IP from BMG.
    Fact is, even though consultants don’t want to hear it, there is a very low risk to anyone who steals your IP.  It makes threats of litigation laughable.

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    #176589

    Robert S
    Member

    You may well be correct….pretty sad statement on the integrity in the SS world, huh?

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    #176590

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    Because it is posted, does not make it so. Out of respect for you and Jay, I will be taking my time to respond to Jay’s thoughtful response and will get back to you guys later with my thoughts.

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    #176591

    Taylor
    Participant

    Gents
    One thing to remember here is that most and I would bet all, companies have documents in place which state that any IP developed while an employee of such company stays with the company and cannot legally be duplicated. That said, Nothing keeps you from changing the basic presentation to mean the same thing or tailor it to a different business, Something I’m sure BMG does for every customer, if they simply have a cookie cutter presentation for all customers then they are even more pathetic I thought. IP lawsuits are laughable, look at the China Market……….This stuff happens everyday in every business around the world. All it takes is one minor change, and in essence the product is different.
     

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    #176592

    marvinisarobot
    Participant

    In my trainings, i sometimes get such requests….can you give us a simplier roadmap? Can we just do FMEA and call it six sigma? Trust me…the logic and flow in six sigma esp DMAIC is the SIMPLEST roadmap you can ever get that is FLEXIBLE across process related problem solving. EOM.

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    #176593

    Robert S
    Member

    Chad I don’t take exception to most of what you say however be careful with the “one minor thing” phrase…don’t think you’re quoting IP law very accurately. And, in part, that’s my point.
    Kinda like religion….people create their own god to satisfy them. God is God and the IP law is the IP law….and it takes much more than “one minor thing”

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    #176597

    Taylor
    Participant

    I never said “minor” I said “One Thing to remember”. I’m not quoting any IP law, I’m simply stating that the companies I have worked for in the past, any and all engineering and development that I performed for them became the property of that company. Its not “law” its company policy and once signed by you, might as well be law. Does that keep me from going to the next company and taking my knowledge with me? NO, just means I have to be creative and make the changes necessary to satisfy copy righted material which may belong to that company. No Company can strip me of my personal knowledge of a program for which I have been apart of or have knowledge of.  
    Many companies are developing policy for non-compete, meaning you simply can’t work for a competitor over a certain time frame, or not without certain penalties. Of course they have separation clauses, such as firings, closures and others.
    As for Intelectual Property and BMG in the same sentence, almost an oxy moron
     

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    #176600

    Mikel
    Member

    Bobby,
    Chad is right. For example, OSSS is neither open source nor original. If you are right, why aren’t you gettting your butt sued right now?

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    #176602

    cheezer
    Participant

    You’re absolutely correct, Jsev607. Other than specific examples, the tools being taught are not novel to the companies claiming IP rights. If a company went after someone claiming IP infringement on how they taught something, they’d first have to prove they either invented the concept/tool or modified it significantly enough (recognized by peers) to be classified as IP. They’d also have to prove that they’ve properly protected their IP in all cases, not just this one, so if an employee had given something away one time, did they discipline that employee? Go after the infringing party? That is not an easy thing to do.
    This is why big companies often trample all over IP rights of smaller companies, as they know the burden of proof is on the company claiming infringement and the concept of novelty is quite grey. It’s almost always easier for the infringed company to accept whatever they can get rather than take someone to court on this.
    I’m not a lawyer but have had IP software infringed upon a few times by much larger companies. My lawyers have always said “get what you can” instead of going to court, because it’ll be too expensive to prove novelty.
    I’m not saying it’s right, but that’s the way it works. Also, it’s not segregated to the six sigma community.

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    #176609

    Robert S
    Member

    Chad, beg to differ. This is copied from your post – “All it takes is one minor change, and in essence the product is different.”. Not trying to make a big deal about – but it is what you said.
    And, while you may not see value in BMG’s material, it is IP and it is protected. So, if one learns things there, as you say, they may take the knowledge. However, they better start with a blank PP slide if they want to build courseware that does not violate IP law.
    The point to this string was a mid-sized company can hire a BB and run an internal program. They just need to be careful of the origin of the IP the BB uses. Low risk being caught – yes. But if caught – easy to prove a violation…if one exists.

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    #176613

    Robert S
    Member

    Because Stanny; while some of it may not be original, we own the rights to it. And, as I’m sure you know, we were sued by your good buddy, made some adjustments and received his sign off.
    What we license we have the right to do so. I wouldn’t build what has become such a successful business on any other foundation.

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    #176618

    Taylor
    Participant

    Thanks Robert, you just proved my point. Make the little changes and move on.

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    #176621

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    Jay,
    Thanks for your thoughtful response. Here are some of my thoughts:
    1. I harbor no ill feelings towards you and in fact, used your QI Macros many years ago in a large healthcare institution as a substitute for Minitab because I felt it was more appropriate for the audience and that the Excel platform was more comfortable for them.
    2. My excitable response was a result of the original poster’s comments that Six Sigma today is too complex and consists solely of over rated training and costly consultants. This was further exacerbated when he seemed to claim that Simplified Six Sigma is a viable SUBSTITUTE for classical Lean Six Sigma approaches. I take exception to that hypothesis.
    3. As Robert S pointed out, I have been in the business for three decades yet he claimed I am a pragmatist. That is true on both accounts. LSS, like all processes is and has been evolving since it’s birth. I don’t know many of the “old timers” that are stuck in a time warp and not evolving along with the industry.
    4. Regardless of whether evolution takes place, there are basic constructs that remain the same. While Man has evolved over time, there are basic things that remain the same…we still have one head, two arms and basically the same functionality we had eons ago. I believe the same is true of LSS. It is evolving yet the fundamental concepts, theories and methodologies need to remain the same otherwise we can no longer classify it as Genus Six Sigma.
    5. Those that believe that a chimp is a viable substitute for Man are wrong. They are complementary to Man and in some cases can help support the goals of Man such as in medical research or the early days of space exploration.
    6. Six Sigma and it’s basic tenets are solid and proven. A competent instructor can teach statistics or any other SS topic to any level of client personnel. I see it every week with the people I work with. Claiming that a coloring book or a Book for Dummies is a substitute for classical and proven methodologies does injustice to the entire field of SS. Getting a PhD or a Law Degree online in a year and claiming that it is as good as a 2 year university education is dangerous and fraudulent. Maybe good enough to deal with a parking ticket but totally inadequate to deal with anything of significance. I believe the same about SS products claiming to be Men when they are really Chimps, metaphorically speaking.
    7. I do believe that there are times where such surrogates can be useful complements to traditional approaches. But, if the marketing of such products claim them to be comparable substitutes then I draw the line and call FOUL.
    8. I believe that most will agree that any failure of SS deployment is proportionately due more to the failure of the organizational leadership to do what needs to be done rather than the teaching skill of the consultant or the fact that people were scared of statistics. I am afraid that coloring books and Dummy books cater to that fear and provide a way out of doing what needs to be done. But, again I see value in such things as possible complements but definitely not substitutes as it appeared the original poster was claiming.I hope that you understand my perspective and why my response may have been a bit passionate.

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    #176623

    Robert S
    Member

    Now we’re getting somewhere with some valuable, thoughtful presentations.
    Out of respect I’ll let Jay comment before I share my thoughts.

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    #176630

    Axel F
    Participant

    Darth
    You did state that Jay had no credibility in the business. Aren’t you stepping back here?
    I personally think this whole chain has more passion that figures behind it but I can conclude two things so far:
    1. The traditional Six Sigma training has some areas of opportunity in order to be made more accessible to everyone but we are failing to recognize and implement effective ways to go around it because we may be too stuck up in our own proven methods (why fix what is not broken? Because it’s ugly!).
    2. Even though this claims to be a data based thinking site, a lot of passion fires up whenever a guru is challenged (although I don’t particulary like Alizz posts). If a sensitive spot hurts, why not spend the time trying to develop a solution around it?
    Just my two cents.

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    #176632

    Robert S
    Member

    Axel, I think you’re due about $.015 change.

    0
    #176635

    Mikel
    Member

    Keep telling yourself that and maybe you’ll really believe it. In the meantime, we know it’s BS.
     

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    #176639

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    Axel,You make some valid points.1. Jay has a good product with his QI Macros but I would hardly call him a major thought leader in the very broad construct we call Six Sigma. By his admission, his coloring book is intended to help lower level folks better understand some of the most basic stat concepts and tools.2. Agreed that constant refining needs to take place to adapt to changing business needs and a dynamic business environment but let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water.3. I don’t believe it was a case of a Guru being challenged but stupid statements that SS is nothing but expensive consultants and useless training. Sort of sounds like the sound bites that are flying around between McCain and the Muslim, terrorist loving guy….see what I mean.4. The smart, successful consultants are adapting yet, at the same time, maintaining the integrity of the core principles that have made SS successful.

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    #176730

    Chris Seider
    Participant

    I sure wish OSSS would have publicly done acknowledgements of those who created the content as they said they would.  Of course, most of the six sigma material are related but some is sooooo watered down.    
    The difference among providers is knowledge about practical usage and ability to do knowledge transfer–oh and don’t forget about getting results. 

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    #176738

    Robert S
    Member

    Seider, where – “as they said they would”? Unknown to me.
    PS: No argument – the rubber meets the road in the ability to transfer knowledge; if you are a training firm…which we are not. We are providers of IP in the LSS arena and I will put the quality and content of our materials up against anyone.

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    #176739

    Chris Seider
    Participant

    Just ask your co-worker, Scot….. I would hope memory would register about public recognition of the major contributors.
    I appreciate your confidence in your materials (and you should have it) but since I was a contributor to them…..don’t think better stuff is not out there or other content can’t be produced again.  However,  I must always remind myself bottom line business results are a minor function of our training materials. 
    Sincerely, good luck on the interesting business model of OSSS.
     
     

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    #176741

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    Hey Stan, stop posting under a different name. We already know that you and Robert have some issues.

    0
    #176743

    Chris Seider
    Participant

    Darth, thanks for the compliment since he was my first mentor on the methodology but it’s not him–it’s me.
    I’ve always enjoyed your postings also….

    0
    #176744

    Robert S
    Member

    D – we’ve been amazingly quiet lately haven’t we?
    Guess we’ve each made all our points about 300 or more times…so let it go.

    0
    #176746

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    Just mess’in wit ya.

    0
    #176747

    Chris Seider
    Participant

    Well has been a while since had the desire and stamina for postings…..so thought you might have forgotten! 
    :)

    0
    #176748

    Mikel
    Member

    Wrong about how great they are. I’ve been considering posting an error in the content daily I figure I
    could go for a few years.

    0
    #176750

    Robert S
    Member

    Stan you bought and are looking at v8.0 which was significantly based on you-know-whose DMAIC; actually I believe you had a hand in that source as well from the real old days so I hope you’ve corrected your own material (thought I should say that since Seider has asked for source identification).
    v9.0 has been out quite some time wherein we did repair errors from the original source. v9.1 is about to be released. As is v10.0 which will be consistent with Minitab 15.
    Thanks for talking about it again. We appreciate you assisting in promoting it.

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    #176752

    Robert S
    Member

    Clarification of my last post in response to Stan.
    I was speaking solely of the three Belt courses. We have multiple other courses that did not originate where the Belt courses did and Stan had nothing to do with them.
    If fact Stan, we’ve got a terrific Champion course – you may want to purchase it and improve your offering. If you want I’ll give you a promotion code that will increase the price to you by only 30%.

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    #176753

    Mikel
    Member

    a small correction, I have version 9.0.

    0
    #176756

    Robert S
    Member

    Hhmmm….didn’t see that you bought v9.0. Sure you came by it properly? Or are you using even another alias?

    0
    #176757

    Taylor
    Participant

    I liked you much better as Brandon

    0
    #176758

    Robert S
    Member

    That’s what my girlfriend just told me….or was that her twin sister?

    0
    #176759

    Mikel
    Member

    Wow, #1 in every channel and you think you know if I have a legit
    copy? You think you know who I am, you obviously don’t.I spent several weeks helping a friend straighten out all the nonsense
    and wrong things in v9.0. v8.0 is clearly a rip off of some of my work from 94-95 – other things
    were so wrong I have no clue what kind of idiot came up with it.

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    #176760

    Mikel
    Member

    I agree with you Chad.Didn’t seem to be such a fool when he had an alias. Most people do the opposite,

    0
    #176765

    Mikel
    Member

    Have you ever read the definition of Open Source as defined by the
    Open Source Initiative?Your stuff clearly is not Open Source, but if you want to open it up to
    peer review and transparency, I’ll contribute.There are definitely some incorrect teachings in v9.0 and I suspect
    they will be in v9.1 which I will also have when released.

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    #176770

    e
    Participant

    Most open source programs out there use others to improve them but then they aren’t charging for the content produced. 

    0
    #176773

    Mikel
    Member

    So the use of the term “Open Source” is meant to be misleading?

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