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  • #46361

    Mansour Toloo
    Participant

    Hi:I am looking for an inexpensive but accredited Six Sigma Black Belt certificate program (either in Illinois and if not an online one). I have come across the following and wonder if it is accredited say by ASQ:http://www.sixsigmaonline.org/index.htmlThank you,Best regards,
    Mansour

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    #153002

    qualitycolorado
    Participant

    Mansour,
     
    ASQ does not accredit any Six Sigma Black Belt Training programs (or any other type of Six Sigma training). 
     
    Additionally, there is no other organization that accredits Six Sigma training programs.
     
    Hence, buyer beware is good advice. If you are looking for “inexpensive”, you may not be getting very good Six Sigma education. 
    That does not mean that all expensive programs are necessarily better, but the better training programs will probably not be in the “inexpensive” category. 
     
    You do not always get what you pay for (there are a lot of less-than-credible training programs out there), but,  my experience has been that you will never get more than what you pay for.
     
     
    Best regards,
    QualityColorado

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    #153003

    Mansour Toloo
    Participant

    Thank you for your reply. Any comments on the company I mentioned namely sixsigmaonline.org and their six sigma Black Belt training? Thank you.

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    #153006

    qualitycolorado
    Participant

    Mansour,
    I am not familiar with SixSigmaOnline.org — perhaps other discussion forum members are, and could comment.
    However, as most folks in this Forum know, I am NOT a fan of web-based training for Six Sigma Black Belts.  The BB is a Project lead — a very important role. They should learn their craft directly from other experience Black Belt Project Leads, and they should learn in person.
    Doing BB training by web-based training is kind of like a Physician trying learning surgery by only reading a journal article.  Even if he / she understood the article thoroughly, they need “hands-on” mentoring and practice (and FEEDBACK!!!) to perfect their skills, and that cannot be done by reading an article (or accessing a website).
     
    I recommend that you look for good, in-person training.
     
    Here are some questions you may want to consider, and some advice, when searching for a Six Sigma training company:
    1.  REQUIREMENT FOR A REAL PROJECT — Good Six Sigma Black Belt training will require a Project — by the way, a REAL project (NOT a simulated one!!!).  The Six Sigma knowledge does not become “real” until you try to apply it in a real situation. Make sure that your training company candidates require this for its attendees. If they do NOT require a Project, then look for another training company.
    2. ADVICE AND MENTORING — Also, the training, whether on the web or in person, absoloutely should come with advice and counsel (AND FEEDBACK!!!) from an experienced Master Black Belt (MBB), or at least an experience (and cerified) BB. The MBB (or BB) will help you through asking tough questions about your Project at every step along the way (and providing other counsel and mentoring).
    When you interview candidate companines, make sure they do this.  Ask the MBB who they have mentored in the past, and how they have done it. Ask them for references, and CALL the references.
    If the Black Belt training includes 1) a requirement for a real-life improvement Project, and 2) good advice throughout the life of your Project from an experienced MBB, then you may be looking at some good training. 
    Two more key considerations:
    3. CHANGE MANAGEMENT — In my experiences with Six Sigma, it has not been the “technical” side of the effort that is most prone to failure; rather, it is the people side (change management, change leadership). Most Black Belt training tends to neglect or marginize this very important topic.
    Ask potential vendors about change management (the “People” side of change), and how they train BBs about that.
    If the training excludes or minimizes any one of these, then PASS on the training and go looking for another training vendor.
     
    4. PRACTICING WHAT THEY PREACH — Also, one last item:  ask the training companies that you are considering how they apply Six Sigma in their own companies. NOT how they help others (though that is also useful to know), but what kind of Six Sigma improvement projects that they have in their own training company (or college / university).  If they are not using it, ask them why …. I doubt they will have good answers.  Anyone who TEACHES Six Sigma should also be USING Six Sigma.
     
    … just my 2 cents worth …
     
    Best regards,
    QualityColorado

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    #153012

    Allthingsidiot
    Participant

    Disagree.
    VillanovaU. has really  an  excellent program,with  the  weekly virtual  classes, and  the  continuous guidance and  feedback which allow  you to  go through  the  assignment step-by-step.They teach  you  how  to understend all  the details  and  figures  of  the  difficult  statistic,before  using  the  Excel or  the  Minitab.I  believe they  are  doing  excellent on-line courses.My  opinion?     

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    #153015

    Douglas Lowery
    Participant

    Mansour:
    Couple of comments
    ASQ Certification requires project work, I assume you have a project to work.  Adult Learning Theory says best to learn and apply.  Most BB training programs attempt to interlace these two elements together for maximun effective learning.
    Presently working with a client that has put eight BB through classroom traing, and currently have several going through on-line training.  The guys going through on-line training hate it, because of the lost interaction with other students in a classroom setting, the opportunity to see the application across several projects, expanding their network, dedicated and sequestered training and so on, changing the company culture etc….
    On-line works, however, for a very small a relatively narrow personality style.  Usually the guy that thinks its great for him thinks it works for everybody, and then wonders why it wasn’t as effective as they thought it should have been.
    Contact Chris Wilkerson at City Colleges of Chicago (Wright College).  They are getting ready to sponsor a Six Sigma BB Training wave in Q2. 
     
     
     
     
     

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    #153038

    Harold Schmurtz
    Participant

    Quality Colorado,
    Do you have any data to back up your opinions on online training?  Do you normally conduct a test of hypothesis without data from a representative sample, and would you accept that approach on a six sigma project?  I agree from my experience that project work is critical, and I agree that coaching is also important, but the data overwhelmingly show that there is no statistically significant difference between the effectiveness of e-Learning vs. classroom training.  For backup, see the DOD/Advanced Distributed Learning Initiative Meta-analysis on “Comparative Effectiveness of Web-based and Classroom Instruction”.    This is not to say that there is not huge variability in the quality of e-learning courses (just as there is with human instructors), so research is required to qualify the offering.  Given that classroom training is much more expensive, especially for an individual on an open-enrollment basis, why recommend an option that doesn’t work better, but costs much more?  That seems inconsistent with Six Sigma.

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    #153047

    qualitycolorado
    Participant

    Harold,Thanks for your reply regarding on-line vs. in-person training for Six Sigma Black Belts. I have reviewed the study you mentioned. I am even more convinced that web-based training for Black Belts is a bad idea generally. For other Discussion Board members who have not read this study, here is a quick synopsis: the overall results of the study that Harold mentions indicated that WBI (web-based instruction) was 6% more effective than CI (classroom instruction) for teaching declarative knowledge, the 2 delivery media were equally effective for teaching procedural knowledge, and trainees were equally satisfied with WBI and CI. WBI and CI were equally effective for teaching declarative knowledge when the same instructional methods were used to deliver both WBI and CI.Ah, but therein is the rub. Harold, the study you mention is really pretty limited, and does not apply very much to the training of a good Black Belt.The emphasis of the study is on “Declarative” knowledge — that is the real problem with this study and trying to apply it findings to Six Sigma Black Belt training. Bear with me on this one: “Declarative knowledge” (aka, propositional knowledge or factual knowledge) is knowledge that is, by its very nature, is expressed in declarative sentences. In other words, things that are black-and-white, like “Mount Everest is the world’s highest mountain.Well, not very much of a Six Sigma Black Belt’s training is concerned with declarative knowledge.There is another type of knowledge: “Procedural knowledge”. This is also commonly known as “know-how”: the knowledge of how, and especially how best, to perform some task; and “knowing of”, or knowledge by acquaintance (the knowledge of something’s existence). Procedural knowledge is often much more difficult to verbalize and articulate. Therefore, it is much more difficult to put into a web-based training form.Six Sigma Black Belt training efforts have much, much more “procedural” knowledge than declarative knowledge. The same is true of training for other professional, such as Physicians or Dentists. There is definitely some book work (declarative knowledge), but there is much, much more procedural knowledge involved.You can learn some very elementary Six Sigma stuff on-line, or even from from books and magazines. But a complete Black Belt education, and learning how to really be a good Six Sigma project leader, takes much more.Skip the on-line instruction. If you want just a cursory overview of Six Sigma, get a good introductory book. If you want to really become a good Black Belt, find a good in-person course from a reputable group…. just my (additional) 2 cents worth …..
    Best regards,
    QualityColorado

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    #153049

    Jim Shelor
    Participant

    QualityColorado,
    I agree with you on the usefulness of online training for the most part.
    I took the University of Michigan course.  It consisted of:

    Over 100 hours of video lecture.
    11 examinations during the course.
    8 case study projects to perform that were graded before you could continue with the lectures.
    A four hour certification examination.
    An actual project, certified by your company as to your role and the financial results, then graded by the instructors.
    If you passed this with a grade of 80% or better, you are issued a certification from UofM.
    If online training is approched correctly by the student (i.e., to learn the subject rather than just get it done) it can be rewarding and a very good learning experience.
    Jim Shelor

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    #153068

    Tim K.
    Member

    It seems to me that Mssrs. Schmurtz and QC agree on at least one point – practice is critical to becoming proficient at using the LSS tools – so called procedural learning.  What Mr. QC fails to point out is that the study also indicates that differences in effectiveness in teaching procedural knowledge between on-line and in-class instruction are statistically insignificant.  See page 22. 
    But moving passed this point – isn’t it fair to say that some degree of declarative must be acquired before you can get to the procedural type of learning needed for LSS proficiency?  So why not pursue on-line instruction for that declarative aspect of learning?  The data suggest it is be the better way to go.  Combine on-line with practice, and what have you got?  The study data support findings of a 20% increased effectiveness in teaching procedural knowledge, when a combined approach is compared to instructor-led training.  See, page 27.  So, the ideal would be to use on-line training supplemented by in-person practice. 
    I hesitate to close using “just my opinion” – there’s more to it than that. 

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    #153071

    qualitycolorado
    Participant

    Tim K.,Thank for your reply. Even on a Discussion Board (if you will, kind of like a web-based training environment), we seem to be seeing different things.
    Page 22 of the study cited says: “… across all studies, there is evidence that WBI is more effective than CI for teaching declarative knowledge, but not for teaching procedural knowledge … “, which is contrary to what you are apparently seeing on the same page regarding procedural knowledge.No matter; most of this is not very helpful to someone (like the original poster) who is thinking about trying to become a Six Sigma Black Belt. Your points regarding combining modes of learning are well-taken. Some knowledge can be learned efficiently on-line (or in books, via videos, etc.).However, the key question is still: should a person try to get a Black Belt via on-line instruction? remember, the Black Belt is THE key person driving an improvement project to completion for a client (a Sponsor or Champion).Despite the proliferation of on-line Six Sigma courses, including those aimed at Black Belts, I am still firmly convinced that in-person (classroom) work is the first choice for Black Belts.However, there are no definitive studies that weigh in for what is best for Black Belt training. What IS available is best practices for training Black Belts, as noted by several other posters. Here is my minimum:1. Requirement for completion of at least one project (and preferrably 2 projects) prior to Black Belt certification. REAL projects, not the “simulated” projects that some providers use. If a person has not already been a Green Belt, then a minimum of 2 projects, for sure.And, the projects have to go all the way through the completion of the “Control” Phase.
    2. Mentoring and feedback from an experienced (and certified) Master Black Belt or Black Belt (during the certification projects). Must include lessons learned and follow-up requirements from the BB or MBB who is serving as the Mentor.
    3. Inclusion of good training (and requirement for usage of) sound “change management” tools (the “people” side of change).
    4. Requirement that the training company itself actually uses Six Sigma in its own operations, and can show you how it has improved its own operations through the use of these tools (Six sigma training companies should practice what they preach). Ask for proof — ask the company to show you what Projects they have undertaken in their own company (they should have storyboards that tell the Project’s story).
    5. Cerification exams for both 1) the classroom konwledge and 2) the Project (or projects) used for certification. The exams should cover at least the material and areas that are on the ASQ BB certification exams (minimun requirement).
    If a training provider(on-line or otherwise) does not meet at least these very few best practices, then you should skip it and look for another provider.
    … just my additional 2 cents (or so) worth ….
    Best regards,
    QualityColorado

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    #153074

    Allthingsidiot
    Participant

    Excellent Opinion….

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    #153073

    Steve Harrison
    Member

    QC,
    Your minimum requirements are worth exactly that 2 cents only and no more! You’re missing a big point. What if learners do not have a real project to work on? Does that mean they remain ignorant? Absouletly not, that’s where the benefit and the idea behined the simulated project avails itself. It’s an opportunity that allows learners to go through the DMAIC steps from begining to end and reinforce Six Sigma learning and knowledge transfer, as well as certification, there is nothing wrong with that! At a later time, if and when a project presents itself, the learner can go for the in-house certification. The simulated project allows professionals who have been in the business for sometime, but for some reason (political, money, time), whatever it may be, to move forward. Some of your true colors are starting to show, no wonder you hide behind the facade of QC!

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    #153077

    qualitycolorado
    Participant

    teve, Wow, very flamed; but really missing the point. Sorry for going on about this, but this topic is too important a topic to leave other people with any misunderstandings.Remember, a Six Sigma Master Black Belt is a Project Leader, regardless of what the title is (Lean Master, Process Excellence Lead, TQM Project Manager, etc.) Regarding your question: “what if learners do not have a real project to work on?”The simple answer is that they should NOT be trying to get certified as a Black Belt.Is some kind of knowledge about Six sigma useful to these people? Absolutely!! I have been a big proponent of self-paced learning for my entire career.But, that does NOT mean that everyone should go for Black Belt certification (or Lean Master certification, Project Leader, etc.) If you and your company (or government organization, or not-for-profit organization, etc.) are serious about process improvement, then there WILL, absolutely, be Projects for the Project Lead (Black Belt) to work on. Even if the potential BB is at a univerisity or college as a full-time student, there WILL be Projects, if the institution is serious about learning and improvement.If the company is NOT serious, then there will NOT be Projects. Self-paced learning on Six Sigma is still good, but, under these circumstances, it will NOT lead you to a Black Belt-level of proficiency.It may, however, open the door at another company, which may, in turn, lead down the path to becoming a Project Lead (Black Belt) If your Black Belt training does NOT include the requirement for completing one or more REAL projects, then its really not Black Belt training. If I interview a candidate who professes to be a certified Black Belt, I ALWAYS ask to see his / her REAL projects. I had one candidate who was certified by his university, and did a Project as an undergrad at his university — she apoligized that it was not very “big” and was not in a corporate seeting but she did not need to apologize — she and her Project were very impressive, especially given the circumstances of the Project!!!!If someone is serious about getting Black Belt certified, he or she will, absolutely, FIND a Project — inside his company, at a local school system, at her local government … anywhere — there is always a crying need for good improvement Projects virtually everywhere in society.If job candidates don’t have a REAL project to talk, we really have little to talk about. Sorry, its really that simple and straight-forward.
    Best regards,
    QualityColorado

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    #153083

    qualitycolorado
    Participant

    By the way, I DO definitely believe that there is a lot of good material about Six Sigma that can be accessed through the Internet, especially for introductory material.If you search for the term “open courseware” on the iSixSigma Discussion Board search engine (upper right corner, and make sure to narrow the search to “Discussion Forum” only), you will find a number of free “open courseware” offerings.One of the best for the topic of “Introductory Statistics”, for instance, is this free course posted by California’s Foothill-De Anza Community College District:http://sofia.fhda.edu/gallery/statistics/index.htmlTopics covered include:
    — Sampling and Data
    — Descriptive Statistics
    — Probability
    — Discrete Distributions
    — Continuous Random Variables
    — Normal Distribution
    — Central Limit Theorem (CLT)
    — Confidence Intervals
    — Hypothesis Testing
    — The Chi-Square Distribution
    — Linear Regression — Correlation
    All of this, and its free, too!!!Q
    Please note that you can NOT receive college or university credit for this internet course. However, it is a terrific free resource for self-paced learners who want to know more about statistics. This can be very useful to new Yellow Belts, Green Belts and other folks who are just beginning to use Six Sigma (and perhaps as a refresher for Black Belts).This open courseware class has some features that many other open courseware offerings do not, including embedded video and a a video-assisted instruction module regarding usage of the TI-83 calculator:
    http://sofia.fhda.edu/gallery/statistics/calculator/calculator.html
    … hope this is helpful …Best regards, QualityColorado

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    #153084

    Steve Harrison
    Member

    QC,
    I’ve caught on to your bag of tricks offered in the disguse of  suggestions and warm hearted recommendations. Yes, as long as learners get simple training on Six Sigma, Lean, or PI, you’re okay with that, you’re not threatend, but God forbid they try to get or acquire their Black Belt, that’s a no no. You Mr./Ms. QC, are a believer in the Law of Scarcity, not the Law of Abunduance! You remind us of those who have the keys to the Kingdom, but will not go in it, or, for that matter, allow others to gain entry into it. Who are you to determine who can and who cannot get their Black Belt?
    As long as learners, are self-motivated, self-disciplined, and self-determined, they can learn or do anything they want. If you will not grant them the opportunity in your interview, then some one else will. The world does not revolve around someone who hides behined the initials of QC. Have a nice day! 
     

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    #153085

    qualitycolorado
    Participant

    Steve, fascinating – somewhat strange, but fascinating nonetheless!
    Mansour,There you have it — LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of different perspectives on your orginal question, regarding “… an inexpensive but accredited Six Sigma Black Belt certificate program …”.So far, unfortunately, none of the replies are from people with experience with the Black Belt offering from the “sixsigmaonline.org” site that you mentioned. Perhaps some other Discussion Forum members who read this later this week with bounce back with some specific experience with “sixsigmaonline.org”.Like any major purchase, buyer beware. There probably is no perfect answer to your original question. A lot of it depends on what exactly you are looking for. If you want just Six Sigma knowledge, there is a lot out there, much of it for little or no cost. For instance, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) offers a lot of material from many of its courses on-line, for FREE, through its “open courseware” site. MIT’s open courseware site has several courses regarding Six Sigma, including this one: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Engineering-Systems-Division/ESD-60Summer-2004/CourseHome/index.htm
    However, your original post mentioned finding an ” … accredited Six Sigma Black Belt certificate program …” As you may have picked up from the other replies to your thread, there is no central body for accrediting these Black Belt courses. Consequently, the “validity” of the Black Belt certificate you receive will depend on 1) what “meat” is behind the certificate and 2) who is looking at the certificate.If the Black Belt certificate is just for your own use to hang on the wall, then just about any course will do. If, on the other hand, you want to use the certification to pique the interest of a potential employer to advance your career, then you may want to consider some of the additional advice in the various replies.Be sure to let us on the iSixSigma Discussion Board know how your Six Sigma studies proceed. Best wishes for every success in your improvement studies!
    Best regards,
    QualityColorado

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    #153092

    Jim Shelor
    Participant

    Steve,
    This is obviously and emotionally charged subject for you, but you might consider lightening up a little.
    Everybody has an opinion, and we do not have the right to belittle others for their opinions.  We have a right to express a different opinion.
    QC is one of those posters that has something to say and tries to make a difference.  I always read QC’s posts because I know I am going to find something of substance in those posts.  I may not always agree with the post, and when I don’t, I say so.
    I may have a predisposition toward agreement when I read QC’s posts on this thread, but it seems to me that you are not reading QC’s posts here objectively.  Maybe you should go back and read through this thread again.  I think you will find that you have driven the things QC has said to the ultimate extreme to form your opinions.
    Just another opinion.

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    #153093

    Adam
    Participant

    Funny…
    You mention having the keys but not wanting to go in, yet you talk about getting the training but not wanting to do a real project.

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    #153094

    mid pacer
    Participant

    I agree with quality colorado.
    firstly go and check for paper published by
    snee and hoerl on asq website which is about six sigma black belt training and standardizing it.In that paper they discuss how urgent it is need for all big organizations to recognize some format(which is ASQ’s mostly) as standard format for Six Sigma Black Belt Training. They also applaud Arizona State University (one of few) which gives Black belt only after 3 semesters of statistics and project a black belt. Its no magic pill to be larned over web or two weeks course and save billion dollars. If that was case we would see six sigma guys everywhere. Mastery always takess time and personal attention.Mike Harry in his lecture at Arizona State University has specified clearly that one thing six sigma industry needs is standardization and consolidation. People with 2 weeks of statistics exposure can not do six sigma project he mentions. REMEBER EASY TO COME EASY TO GO
    HARD TO COME HARD TO GOI am amazed at people who are in hurry to learn six sigma for making some cool quick bucks.
    Isnt it amazing? its because of too much of buzz created by six sigma online consultants that philosphy is loosing its value because of too many quacks in the field.

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    #153095

    mid pacer
    Participant

    I agree with quality colorado.
    firstly go and check for paper published by snee and hoerl on asq website which is about six sigma black belt training and standardizing it.In that paper they discuss how urgent it is need for all big organizations to recognize some format(which is ASQ’s mostly) as standard format for Six Sigma Black Belt Training. The discussion paper contains replies from all recognized MBB’s and Chanpions from Industry.
    They also applaud Arizona State University (one of few) which gives Black belt only after 3 semesters of statistics and project a black belt certificate. Its no magic pill to be learned over web or two weeks course and save billion dollars. If that was case we would see six sigma guys everywhere shouting as vendors do in some market places in some part of world.
    Mastery always takes time and personal attention.Mike Harry(Phd ASU Industrial Engineerng) in his lecture at Arizona State University has specified clearly that one thing six sigma industry needs is standardization and consolidation. People with 2 weeks of statistics exposure can not do six sigma project he mentions.REMEBER EASY TO COME EASY TO GO HARD TO COME HARD TO GOI am amazed at people who are in hurry to learn six sigma for making some cool quick bucks. Isnt it amazing?
    its because of too much of buzz created by six sigma online consultants that philosphy is loosing its value because of too many quacks in the field.
    one of google recruiter said me one thing before interview PLEASE DONT SAY ME ANYTHING ABOUT SIX SIGMA I AM TIRED OF HEARING ABOUT IT. he was like its too much of buzz and fizz and no content for majority of people.
    SOMETHING TO KEEP INVESTORS BUSY.I was taken aback and realized that its loosing so much credibility because of 2 weeks black belt programs.
    and its disheartening as six sigma guy

    I will never acknolwedge any guy from web based program or 2 week program as six sigma professional.
    though I may be one in millions.

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    #153126

    SH
    Member

    Adam,
    Either you can’t read, you don’t retain what you read, or both. A real project is part of the in-house certification, meantime the process of learning and training DMAIC goes on without having to stop until a SS project presents itself (not every project in an organization is a SS project). Go back and read and re-read. 

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    #153145

    SH
    Member

    Agree, however, until that plane avails itself for the real thing, the learner can learn all they can possibly can by what ever resources or means possible. That’s it!

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    #153141

    Harold Schmurtz
    Participant

    Steve,Flight simulators are commonly used to train pilots – to give them experience in a safe environment while learning. But it’s not the same a flying a real plane. There are more variables than a simulator can possibly incorporate. Simulated six sigma projects are similar: they are USEFUL learning tools, but they are NOT THE SAME as flying the plane. Would you want to fly on a plane piloted by someone whose only experience was on a simulator? How about undergoing surgery by a doctor who only practiced on a simulated patient? How many simulated projects accurately incorporate messy real world events, like team members refusing to do their job, or managers in affected areas actively trying to sabotage a project? There is a reason why a premium is placed on real world experience – because there is no substitute.

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    #153183

    On line Training
    Participant

    Hello all, very nice replies. I have read them and I believe that on-line training is as good as any. I used to work for a Japanese tier 1 automotive supplier, I was doing most of the things in SS before I even knew what SS was. The Japanese called it TQM. I moved out of town and upon my new employment search, I noticed many companies were looking for SS BB, not knowing what it was I decided to get educated on the subject. I enrolled in the SS BB Course @ Villanova. I was suprised to see how much I had already learned from my previous employer and I had already completed some “projects” but called them something else. Just “process Improvements” I believe that the Simulated projects do make you go through the “motions” of a good project but the on line course doesn’t prepare you for the things that “pop-up” in the real world. But that only comes with experience anyway… so what is the difference really????? Any replies are welcomed..

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    #153187

    Lebowski
    Participant

    Toto,
    They are headquartered in Cleveland that should tell you something. I suppose you vacation in Pittsburg.
    Go see More Steam and get some value for your money. Unfortunately it is still Ohio but close to Columbus. Great bowling alleys.
    Lebowski

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    #153188

    Heebeegeebee BB
    Participant

    If you truly conducted due diligence and true data-driven analysis, you would have reached a far different conclusion…
    TQM and 6S share many ideas and priciples, but are not 100% interchangeable.
     

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    #153194

    Mansour
    Participant

    How much are the total fees?

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    #153198

    Jim Shelor
    Participant

    http://cpd.engin.umich.edu/cpd-site/index.html
    Includes Green Belt Course and Black Belt Certification.  $6000

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    #153203

    Mansour
    Participant

    Any good but inexpensive programs around in US?

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    #153217

    On line Training
    Participant

    Heebee, I’m just saying that they called it TQM, there were many, many, things that are in the SS toolbox that we used. Including DOE, regression studies and TOC to name a few. When I initially took the class I didn’t realize that there were so many things I had already done that pertains to SS. Things that the Villanova class covered pretty well. That’s all sorry for not clearly stating my post. Cheers…

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    #153232

    Jim Shelor
    Participant

    I researched many programs over about a month period before I settled on the University of Michigan.
    There are a lot of programs that are less expensive, but I am in no position to give you an evaluation of those courses compared to the University of Michigan course because I did not take any of the others.
    I can tell you that I rejected those that did not require an actual project for the certification.  There are 8 case projects in the University of Michigan course in addition to the actual project.

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    #153249

    Lebowski
    Participant

    on line training,
    If you are going to do training on line you need to sharpen those computer skills since you have answered a post to Heebeegeebee as if it were to my post. This skill set or lack there of will probably make your on line training a challenge. You are going to have to enter the correct answer under the question asked at some point. A little misdirection and no Simulated Black Belt Certification for you. That may not be entirely true Allthingsidiot got certified. It is similar to watching Ozzy Osborne on a reality show and realizing you can get a recording contract with less than a double digit number of brain cells.
    A very interesting view of TQM and Six Sigma. I guess I can just throw away that old book by Shewhart since the Japanese made it a TQM tool it must belong to TQM now. How about that Ishikawa Diagram? Do we just file it under TQM and drop that Ishikawa name. He probably wanted to be called the father of Ishikawa Diagrams anyway so we can just call them fishbones.
    Lebowski

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    #153280

    accrington
    Participant

    Oi, don’t you put Ozzy in the same category as Mr Idiot! Ozzy is the father of Biting the Heads Off Bats Sigma (BHOBS). Mr Idiot can become a Grand Master Bullgoose Black Belt in BHOBS if he sends me £4.95 and a stamped address envelope (he’ll have to provide his own rubber bat for his simulated project)

    0
    #153283

    mid pacer
    Participant

    Jim,what about robust regression
    what about Generalized Linear Model Theory
    what about one sample sie chart
    what about CUSUM and EWMA charts
    what about advacnved DOE’s PB designsthis is difference between a effective black belt and general black belt.thats why UMich Program is just good enoughI have seen the course and seen one session also
    I had option to choose between Arizona State University and U mich and I chose ASUReasons
    what about simulation tools
    what about OR tools
    and history is with ASU in way ASU certification is recognized in way by motorola On semiconductor General Dynamics B of America GE because these companies recognize ASU black belt(they may ask u to give simple exam thats it)Mike Harry is PhD from ASU Industrial EngineeringMBB from these companies have made statements about it on record.I dont say Umich program is bad it certainly is good
    but its just good.U have 26 modules of 2 hrs thats it???I have had two full sem of Regression, DOE, Statistical Six Sigma(MBB from above companies taught each phase in SS project), Adv Quality Control, Generalized Linear Modelnot to mention I have done project in all of the courses above( Regression , DOE(RCBD with 3 factors, )
    so effectively on getting my black belt , I would have done 4 projects already and then the big black belt projectMy verdict
    its best in the class of everything else being offered

    0
    #153285

    Phasor
    Participant

    Accrington,
    I recently cam across an old map of British football teams and found out there is/was a football  team called Accrington. I assume it is a town/city in the North of England, near Manchester.
    No wonder you used the word ‘pillock’ in a previous post. Do you think anyone in the rest of the world would undertand what it means? (Discounting Vanguard Consulting who refer to those who use Six Sigma as ‘tool heads!’)
    Personally, I prefer the term Whooper – someone who dances around whooping everytime someone else makes a mistake or asks a silly question :-)

    0
    #153289

    accrington
    Participant

    Hi Phasor
    Accrington Stanley Football Club was formed in 1891, and was one of the original teams which formed the foorball league. It dropped out of the football league about 40 years, re – entering the second division about two years. The English football league probably needs some explanation:
    We have four divisions. The Premier League, which used to be the First Division; the Championship, which used to be the first division when the first division became the Premiership and was the second division when the Premiership was the first division; the first divisioon which used to be the second division, and was the third division before that; the second division, which used to be the third division, and before that the fourth division. Before we had a fourth division, we had the third divsion North and South.
    What I mean by football, by the way, may be unfamiliar to my American friends. Football is played by two teams of eleven players, and is the most popular team game in the World The game is played over 90 minutes, with a break after 45 (half – time). There are no helmets or protective armour used, and no commercial breaks every ten minutes while the players have a rest. Also the World Cup involves countries from all over the world, rather than teams from one country, which may also cause confusion.
    It would take too long to explain the off – side rule.
    I myself, am not actually from the North – East of England, although my father was a Geordie. I was born in Wales and prefer Rugby to football

    0
    #153294

    Phasor
    Participant

    Thanks for the most excellent potted history of English football. Do you also have a ‘World Series’ like we do in the USA :-)

    0
    #153296

    On line Training
    Participant

    Lebowski, R U really that stupid? I never said TQM was to replace SS. go back and read the post…. otherwise go crawl back under your rock..

    0
    #153298

    accrington
    Participant

    Not quite. The football, cricket and rugby World Cups involve teams from more than one country, and are held in different host countries. Last year the football World Cup was held in Germany, this year’s cricket World Cup (started yesterday) is being held in Jamaica, and the Rugby World Cup, later this year, will be held in France, with some matches being played in UK and Italy. The neasrest to a football or baseball World Series is the World Professional Darts Tournament, which mainly involves players from UK and Holland, who, presumably, spend more time in pubs than any other nation, which is why they’re good at darts.

    0
    #153308

    Mikel
    Member

    Mikel’s PhD is not from the IE folks – do your homework and read his dissertation. You will not be impressed.

    0
    #153309

    Dayton
    Member

    Dr. Harry’s Formal Education
    Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.)

    Industrial Technical Education, 1984
    Division of Technology, College of Engineering and Applied Sciences & College of Education, Arizona State University, Tempe, Arizona.
    Areas of Study: Industrial Technology – Technical Education – Research and Experimental Statistics – Quantitative Research Design- Computer Intensive Research Methods
    Master of Arts (M.A.)

    Industrial Technology and Education, 1981
    Department of Industrial Technology, Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana.
    Areas of Study: Industrial Technology – Technical Education – Research Methods
    Bachelor of Science (B.S.)

    Industrial Technology, 1973
    Department of Industrial Technology, Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana.
    Areas of Study: Industrial Electronics – Experimental Psychology

    0
    #153307

    Jim Shelor
    Participant

    Okay.  Good for you.  I had a different opinion and chose U of M.  Everybody has an opinion and I respect yours.
    As I said in my originsl post, I am in no position to compare any of the less expensive courses to the U of M course because I did not take them.
    What exactly was it that tripped your trigger anyway??

    0
    #153323

    Mikel
    Member

    Got a copy of his dissertation? If not, I do somewhere.Probably with the worthless videotapes in the basement. I thought the
    dissertation was of the same quality as the videotapes and MindPro –
    a waste of electronic and physical media!

    0
    #153327

    Mikel
    Member

    Sure I can talk about it, but not on here.  Let’s go have a small gathering of friends in Berkeley or the Keys or Ann Arbor or one of those other bastions of decadent behavior and we can trade whatever stories you want.
    Suffice it to say that anything you here from or about the good doctor is 10% true and 90% embellishment.

    0
    #153326

    Dayton
    Member

    Stan,
    All joking aside, what has this person committed in attitude, behavior, or action that has caused to be so toxic towards anything related to him? Can you talk about it? or Ary you limited to what can be said?

    0
    #153330

    BTDT
    Participant

    Stan:According to the website, it is a natural product that * Improves memory and concentration * Sharpens mental focus * Improves recollection, reaction time and information retrieval * Complete multi-vitaminIt looks like MindPro really is just snake-oil after all ;)
    Cheers, BTDT

    0
    #153331

    Dayton
    Member

    Stan,
    Based on your last comment, it sounds as if you may have had past business dealings (guessing here!). But let’s suppose that a certain entity is getting ready to do business with said individual, are you in a position to share any positive and objective feedback? (Provided you can set your feelings and emotions aside!) What concerns or excitment would you have? Why or Why not?      

    0
    #153336

    Cheers!
    Participant

    If for any reason the first five don’t work, we’ll send you another bottle for free!

    0
    #153329

    Mikel
    Member

    BTW – ever seen MindPro or the videotapes or the white and black cartoon books?

    0
    #153339

    Vinny1
    Member

    I won’t get into another spat about who is/was the original Vinny and who’s the imposter Vinny, because as the first Vinny, I was also an imposter – however, to my knowledge, the current Vinny has no connection with Berkeley and/or its related decadence.   He or she as the case may be will have to stand or fall on his/her own accord versus pointing to a Bay Area induced chemical imbalance or rebalance, as the case may be.  

    0
    #153341

    Mikel
    Member

    That does it, the current Vinny is not invited to the party – his/hers
    quizes are to damn hard anyway.

    0
    #153342

    Mikel
    Member

    Ever noticed the clock on this site? Must have been purchased from
    some Berkeley grads.

    0
    #153332

    Cheers!
    Participant

    BTDT,
    You need to put in the following:
    www dot sixsigmamindpro dot com, but first make sure to take your dose of vitamins, so that you don’t forget! ;)
    Cheers!

    0
    #153334

    Mikel
    Member

    And if you buy 3 bottles, you get 2 free!It is also a supermarket and shopping mall in Zamboanga City.

    0
    #153340

    Mikel
    Member

    I did not realize this was a multi part quiz.Okay -Any positive and objective feedback? Yes, the good doctor sells big
    contracts – riding the gravy train!What concerns or excitment would you have? I’d have to find my
    titanium chasity belt again (cover my rear if you know what I
    mean).Why or why not? What kind of question is that?In all seriousness, if I had the chance and knew the conditions and
    was privy to contract and customer details, I’d consider it.The other side of the seriousness is try to imagine sitting through
    160 hours of that tripe by yourself – and anyone who knows lean –
    a whole 16 hours dedicated to Lean Six Sigma! He is selling hope,
    not enlightenment. I prefer to see people’s life changed forever to
    making the excessive money and blowing it on arrogance.

    0
    #153347

    Dayton
    Member

    Got it! Thanks for sharing.

    0
    #153348

    Dayton
    Member

    Allright, we’ll call you the “Definitive Vinny,” how’s that!

    0
    #153351

    Dayton
    Member

    BTW, have you authored or developed any Six Sigma or Lean training material yourself, that’s available to the public? Why or Why not?

    0
    #153352

    Lebowski
    Participant

    Rugby! A gentleman’s sport played by ruffians or is it a ruffians sport played by gentlemen. I vote for the former.
    Lebowski

    0
    #153353

    Lebowski
    Participant

    Vinny whichever,
    You have seen the repeated bashing of the Ford deployment? And whose consulting company was that? Six Sigma Academy with said Dr. at the helm. Nothing more need be said concerning his credibility as the self proclaimed Father of Six Sigma, Godfather of Six Sigma, Distant Cousin to the Person Who May Have Thought of Six Sigma, ad nauseum.
    If you want to see the good Dr. at his best watch how irritated he gets when he speaks with anyone with less than a Masters degree. Given that he must be interesting leading a team from a shop floor.
    Lebowski

    0
    #153354

    Lebowski
    Participant

    That is difficult to answer since you have not specified how stupid is that stupid.
    I also did not say that you said TQM was to replace Six Sigma. It is amazing that a group of people place a lot of know tools into a box called TQM and it is beyond you to imagine that the same tools and more could be used in another methodology. Wow! It does seem a little short sighted maybe even neanderthal. There may be room for you under the rock. We don’t care how you get here crawl, run, jog whatever suits you.
    Lebowski

    0
    #153359

    Mikel
    Member

    Yes, Reigle, I have. Why do you ask?

    0
    #153361

    Dayton
    Member

    1) Sorry to dissapoint, but this is not Reigle!
    2) Perhaps, because I’m not familar with any of your works?
    Do you have an ISBN?

    0
    #153368

    Mikel
    Member

    Dear Reigle’s daughter,I am not familiar with any of your work either. Not as small a world as
    they make it out to be.

    0
    #153371

    Definitive Vinny
    Participant

    Excellent.  

    0
    #153374

    accrington
    Participant

    It depends! In Wales, New Zealand, South Africa and Australia, the fromer. In England, Scotland and Ireland, the latter.

    0
    #153377

    BritW
    Participant

    I’m not a Harry basher, but I believe it is:
    Mikel Harry: Phd ASU Industrial Technical Education, not Industrial Engineering, 1984.
    Maybe a small difference bu just clarifying, as an IE

    0
    #153379

    Dayton
    Member

    Stan,
    BA was right, you are obsessive, compulsive, and fixated on anything Reigle, Harry, University training, or that is in any way, shape, or form connected with them. But yet you yourself have 1) never written a book on the subject of Six Sigma or 2) developed a training program to further advance the knowledge and promotion of Six Sigma to the world. Very interesting and sad at the same time. Peace be upon you! 

    0
    #153382

    IE
    Participant

    Not a small difference, a huge difference. One is focused on training, one is focused on doing.

    0
    #153384

    BritW
    Participant

    Actually, I think IE’s have evolved into both trainers and doers – at least my career has gone in that direction.
    Only reason I said “May be a small difference” is that I have no knowledge of the ASU program that Harry’s degree is in – may or may not have IE components.  I just wanted the poster to be correct in the education title.

    0
    #153381

    Dayton
    Member

    Dr. Harry’s Formal Education
    Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.)

    Industrial Technical Education, 1984
    Division of Technology, College of Engineering and Applied Sciences & College of Education, Arizona State University, Tempe, Arizona.
    Areas of Study: Industrial Technology – Technical Education – Research and Experimental Statistics – Quantitative Research Design- Computer Intensive Research Methods
    Master of Arts (M.A.)

    Industrial Technology and Education, 1981
    Department of Industrial Technology, Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana.
    Areas of Study: Industrial Technology – Technical Education – Research Methods
    Bachelor of Science (B.S.)

    Industrial Technology, 1973
    Department of Industrial Technology, Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana.
    Areas of Study: Industrial Electronics – Experimental Psychology
    Source: www dot mikeljharry dot com

    0
    #153383

    Mikel
    Member

    Reigle (aka BA and Vinny lately; Reigle’s daughter and about 10 other names where you exchange posts with yourself),
    I obsessed with liers? Yes
    Never written a book? Wrong
    Never developed a training program? Wrong
    The sad thing is an old, fat guy obsessed with a person who has kicked you so many times. Really sad.
    Peace be with you too.

    0
    #153385

    JAO
    Participant

    The world will always need and require great teachers and professional trainers, who have the gifts and talents of being both “Doers”  (application skills) and “Great Communicators” (interpersonal skills) to further advance knowledge into the world.
     

    0
    #153392

    Mikel
    Member

    Reigle,Grow up.

    0
    #153391

    Dayton
    Member

    Do your books and training programs exist in the public domain? If so, whre? Based on your description of Reigle, you may be fatter, older, or both! But, what is it that leads you to say that he gets kicked around? Have you personally observed this behavior? Is it your personal perception? or Are you making it up?
     

    0
    #153393

    Dayton
    Member

    Is that your final answer?

    0
    #153394

    accrington
    Participant

    Can I phone a friend?

    0
    #153396

    Dayton
    Member

    Yes, you may call Stan? But you must use AT&T! Good one.

    0
    #153398

    Mikel
    Member

    Not even close. As long as you come on here peddling BS, you’ll get
    me as soon as I detect you. Your writing style and arguements are
    easy to see.

    0
    #153404

    Mikel
    Member

    Talk to you again soon Reigle.

    0
    #153399

    Mikel
    Member

    Sorry, but you’ll have to use Brighthouse (cable, highest speed
    internet, VOIP) if you want to get me.

    0
    #153401

    Dayton
    Member

    Just when it was getting interesting! Sorry to tell you this, but your PDS (paranoid detection system) is defective. Anyway, wishing you all the best! 

    0
    #153409

    Dayton
    Member

    Look forward to it!
    Vinny

    0
    #153417

    Knoxville
    Participant

    Vinny,
    I was trained by Stan. He is not fatter or older than Reigle. He is taller. Stan never asked us to take a break every hour so he could have a cigarette either.
    Anyone who watched Six Sigma Academy launch that lame Supplier Institute during the AS deployment got to watch Reigle get kicked around for that. It is a fact.

    0
    #153421

    Heebeegeebee BB
    Participant

    Aw Knoxville, I had actually blocked that AS Supplier boondoggle out of my mind…Now I’m having flash backs…
    thanks alot!
    ;-)

    0
    #153425

    Dayton
    Member

    Thanks Stan (Knoxville or Charlotte),
    I have no reason not to believe you, as you may be right. Who can say? I’m guessing that you worked for the Academy at one time or another, were trained by Harry or Reigle, and things did not work out? Not sure.
    However, why do you allow such a deep animosity and enmity to exist between you? It sounds like you want it kept personal, but yet you always make the choice to display it in your communication behavior on this forum. I mean, aside from, money, fame, power, arrogance, and greed (guessing here), on both sides, what else occured or continues to occur to cause you to carry such deep resentment? Is it just a personality clash, an ego thing, differences in values/beliefs, etc.? Obviously, it is more than just a matter in differences of opinion? Do you care to share? That’s all!
    Vinny

    0
    #153427

    Knoxville
    Participant

    Dr. Phil,
    I am not Stan nor Charlotte.
    I think it is about taking credit for other peoples work. Harry was never at a single training class I am aware of for AS Automotive. Harry was never in our factory in Marysville for site support or any other reason. Reigle showed up to do some training after being expelled after the Supplier Institute because Stan and some others were trying to help him out.
    Do you believe Reigle knows Harry’s material well enough to quote it without Harry’s assistance?
    You figure out why it doesn’t go away.
    You brought age and weight into this to add a little emotion and now you want to preach peace and love and forgivness. I think you are speaking with two faces.

    0
    #153428

    Dayton
    Member

    Thanks for sharing Knoxville aka Stan, etc.
    Concerning the weight and age thing, you’ll need to go back and re-read your own posts, unless you’re dealing with sometimers!

    0
    #153431

    Dayton
    Member

    Hi Stan, It’s Vinny (not Riegle or Dr. Phil). BTW here’s your emotional post from earlier this morning discussing age and weight. Now go away!Posted by: StanPosted on: Thursday, 15th March 2007, 9:39 AM. Reigle (aka BA and Vinny lately; Reigle’s daughter and about 10 other names where you exchange posts with yourself),I obsessed with liers? YesNever written a book? WrongNever developed a training program? WrongPeace be with you too.

    0
    #153430

    Knoxville
    Participant

    Dr. Phil,
    Now you are rationalizing to make yourself feel better. You made a feeble attempt to be very cerebral and just looked silly.
    Your first sentence is incorrect therefor your second sentence is incorrect also.

    0
    #153434

    Knoxville
    Participant

    Dr. Phil,
    I am still not Stan.
    Have a nice afternoon.

    0
    #153438

    Dayton
    Member

    Oprah,
    I’m still Vinny!
    You have a nice day too!

    0
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