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  • #53009

    Bobby Joy
    Participant

    Dear All
    I would like to know details about six sigma certification in Kuwait or any e learning packages offered by any of the Certification organizations that are competent and has a brand recognition. i would like to know the course strucutre, the duration and the fees associated with training on six sigma.
    i am working as a service engineer after completing my b.e and my mba. kindly suggest…
    regards
    bobby

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    #187359

    Valenti
    Participant

    bobby, your nomenclature is incorrect. You should be looking for a training firm, not a certification firm. There are many companies who train, to varying degrees of competency; certification is silly in the LSS industry – no standard, means nothing.

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    #187360

    Lisa Marie
    Participant

    Bobby,
    There are many companies that offer a Lean Six Sigma certification online.  Two that I know do an excellent job are Villanova University and QPS, Inc.  The programs are very different. 
    Villanova University does Lean, Green, and Black in different classes – 3 months each.  They mail you dvds and you watch individuals (like George Eckes) train an group of individuals and you then have a weekly conference call to attend.  At last check the cost was somewhere around $7500 for all three.
    QPSconsulting.com offers programs in Lean, Green, Black, Biomedical, Service, etc. They use online coursework, binders, etc. for training purposes.  They offer a Master Certification – which is the Lean Six Sigma Green Belt, Lean Six Sigma Black Belt, Project Management, and Supply Chain Management.  At last check it was somewhere around $7500 for all three as well.  If you want just the LSS GB training it would be $1195.
    In the end, even though an individual posted earlier that there was none, you would be best to take the exam through ASQ (the governing body of LSS work) for it to become a well known certification. That costs roughly $200 and needs to be done in person.  Go to ASQ.org for more information.
    Best of luck in your services, LSS is a fantastic field to get involved with.
    Regards,
    Lisa-Marie

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    #187361

    Lisa Marie
    Participant

    Actually Freddy,
    The governing body would be ASQ.  Much like PMI for Project Management, ASQ offers the standardization and credibility one strives to have within the Six Sigma Field.  You can be trained by many competent firms and then go to ASQ with your certification / project documentation to take the exam.
    Best Regards,
    Lisa-Marie

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    #187362

    GB
    Participant

    Lisa-Marie,
    You are dead wrong on this issue. ASQ is a service and cert provider that is well known and respected for CQE/CQm, but their six sigma cert process is an abortive abomination. Their process is little more than a test-based, affadavit-dependant cert mill.Again, kudos to them for their CQE/CQM curriculum and cert processes, but they need to add some serious rigor. Having been in a position to hire BB’s those that came in only bearing ASQ BB failed to gain employment 100% of the time. Those that came in with solid industrial exp with 6S and had ASQ, did much better.

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    #187363

    Valenti
    Participant

    Lisa-Marie, I won’t be quite as animated as hb however I take exception to your post. ASQ is “a” certifier in the SS industry. However to cite them as “The governing body would be ASQ.” would be very wrong. The industry has not anointed them as the arms-length, centralized body to speak for it. There is no such entity as yet; although IASSC has now entered the fray in an effort to move this forward. Time will tell.
    Certainly such an entity is needed – as I was trying to say in my first post in this string; there seem to be no training firms anymore – they are all “certification” firms. How silly, how incorrect!

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    #187364

    Rider
    Participant

    Jeepers creepers and jimminy christmas Batman, who gives a rosy red fire truck where someone gets certified? If there is no experience, it doesn’t matter. Heavens to Betsys such things get old, but I just can’t help myself. Every certifying entity seems to have its supporters and detractors. I hire tech writers. I could care less than one iota what school they came out of, or if they even went to college. I look at the portfolio I’ve asked for and decide based on the contents therein. Holy smokes and jumpin’ geewillickers…Ghost Rider is aghast!

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    #187365

    Lisa Marie
    Participant

    Anybody can enter any training and certification program (or college for that matter) and trick the system but that is not the norm.  I am not “dead wrong” about them being the well-known certification company.  My point was not that EVERYONE they certify is wonderful – if that was the case then everyone with a Harvard degree would be incredibly smart as well (which has not been my experience).
    They have the most rigor around years experience, number of projects completed, etc.  You cannot say that just because you haven’t hired 100% of the BBs with an ASQ certification that the process is an abortive abomination – you need to look at the bigger picture.  That is, in fact, what they teach in week one – to look at the right data and move away from emotion.
    Will I agree that they have work to do – sure – any certification company does.  Are they perfect – no.  But your initial comments to the individual was to seek training and not certification because essentially without the governing body it didn’t mean anything and unfortunately that is incorrect advice.  Training alone is never enough – it takes experience with projects to solidify it, the exam, and the overall knowledge and right now ASQ is the only one doing a good job at it alongside being well known.
    Cheers.

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    #187366

    Lisa Marie
    Participant

    Hey There –
    Thanks for the posting.  While I agree that ASQ has not been given rights as the governing body ultimately they are the defacto one.  In many orgnizations they seek out the ASQ name for their standardization of the six sigma training.  There are other companies out there that may attempt to compete and ultimately perhaps someone else will win the title, but as it stands today – ASQ “governs” (and again I use that word lightly) what Six Sigma means to most and unfortunately as we know perception = reality.
    Good chatting with you!

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    #187367

    GB
    Participant

    Lisa-Marie,
    I can, because I have data to prove it. What you don’t know is that I and several colleagues conducted an experiment in our respective towns to test the validity, rigor and whether or not affadavits were being verified. Bottom line: the experiment demonstrated a lack of rigor in the areas noted above, esp with regard to affidavit validation.

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    #187368

    GB
    Participant

    They are not the defacto governing org. They have an excellent marketing team that puts their 6S process out there for all to see, minus rigor.

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    #187369

    Dharma Bum
    Participant

    Lisa,
    Are you affiliated with ASQ in any way?

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    #187370

    Valenti
    Participant

    Lisa-Marie, have to agree with hb here. ASQ probably has a decent testing process however, experience and project validation is, well – silly at best. An affidavit, please – guy in the cubical next to me would sign one in a heartbeat. Means nothing – nothing. At least I believe IASSC does not have that as a component of its process – stating all it can speak to with validity is possesion of knowledge. Application ability must be assessed by other means & over time (not at the end of 4 weeks of training) – much like what hb says.

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    #187374

    Lisa Marie
    Participant

    Dharma,
    Great question – sorry I hadn’t thought of it before.  Beyond being a member (I pay $200+ a year and am in 4 of their groups) – I am not.  I am an owner of a consulting company and provide training to groups on Lean Six Sigma, Quality, Biomedical, Project Management, Strategy and Development, etc. 
     Projects with my company are mandatory because as was written previously experience is incredibly important and I also have requirements to becoming a Black Belt before Green Belt.  I have found that many companies do not, which is why I like the rigor ASQ puts into their certifications.  Do I think it could be better?  Most definately – but sometimes you have to work with the structure that is there and help to make it better instead of merely criticizing its weaknesses.
    Best Regards,
    Lisa-Marie

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    #187375

    Lisa Marie
    Participant

    Hey There –
    Listen, I get it, I really do.  You don’t ASQ – you think they are too light – their certifications mean nothing.  Okay – so do something about it.  Contact them – see if you can help – they have just put together a team to look at the Master Black Belt Certifications – SPEAK UP!  Writing to me (although fun and interesting) isn’t going to do the system justice.
    If you and your colleagues have managed to put together a test to hold its weight in water – say 20% of Black Belts from ASQ exams that have been randomly selected and not just the ones looking for jobs (because lets face it – then it wouldn’t be random) then go to it with them.  Let’s help them.
    You know it is a bit like high school – everyone has ideas but nobody wants to do anything with them.  We take the time to write to them about in a blog but does that really help?  It is easier to point faults than it is to help create a) a betterment in the system or b) a new system to challenge the status quo.
    Good luck to you in all of your endeavors and if you have good data then I truly wish you would share it with them.  It can make a difference. 
    Happy Holidays.
    Lisa-Marie
    PS.  The entire point of this thread, however, was to help someone find training not discuss ASQ and its faults – unless you have more to post about good training groups the job has been more than done!  ;)

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    #187376

    Lisa Marie
    Participant

    Well that is sort of the entire point of a de facto.  Although the group was started for knowledge sharing, training, etc. in reality they have become a lot more.  Is this originally due to marketing – I would say no.  It was more to do with being the first big kid on the block with a solid idea AND a great marketing department. (Hah)
    If you ask leaders in the industries of biomedical, technology, military-based operations in many times they are going to ask for an ASQ certification as their “ticket to play”.  They were the first to really control it beyond just the members that took training with them.  It allows for companies to understand a black belt from Podunk university that received a 4-day training without a project (and yes there are trainings like that) from one that understands the material, has done projects that excelled, etc. 
    I am not, nor have I ever, said that their system couldn’t or shouldn’t change.  While some may be upset with their process, I don’t think anyone can say they lack rigor altogether.  Some areas can change – but can’t we all change something in even our own lives?
    Well – Happy Holidays to all.  I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread and chatting with you all – but unfortunately – must part for the day for a meeting.
    Best Regards,
    Lisa-Marie

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    #187377

    Valenti
    Participant

    Agree with your “PS:” entirely L-M. See my first post – unfortunately nearly all training firms are now “selling” certs, not training – check the wording of their ads. They’re not training firms, they’re cert firms. And ones such as BMG are now calling themselves “Universities” – are you kidding me? Wonder how their football team did this year?

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    #187378

    Lisa Marie
    Participant

    Hah – no doubt.  There are many that oversell their programs and because so many people want the certifications they sell what is needed.  I refuse to sell just a certification – I don’t teach people – I educate them.  I won’t teach to an exam – the exam only shows what you learned not what you didn’t.

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    #187379

    Dharma Bum
    Participant

    1) ditch the exam
    2) stand up a genuine mentor-protege process to impart wisdom and promote knowledge sharing
    3) Add rigor to the verification of cycles of learning and bottom line results. To include sign off by recognized 3rd Party Experts.Per a similar thread that came up months back, when visiting the ASQ BB website, the emphasis is placed on the cost requirements, methods of payment and explanation of costs, followed by more cost info.
    -see where I’m going?

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    #187380

    Valenti
    Participant

    OK, Dharma, reasonable logic behind your suggestion. However, care to move to implementation now? How do you think you staff this approach? What do you think this would cost? How is it accomplished throughout the world?
    When you move from concept to actualization things become a bit more of a challenge. Much easier to be a critic than a provider.

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    #187381

    GB
    Participant

    I have. Several of us have, to no avail. I presented our experiment findings to both the local ASQ Chapter and to national. They are not interested, as their current process yields solid financial results.

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    #187382

    Dharma Bum
    Participant

    You hear of, “think globally, act locally”?Local chapters are made up of folks that have been through the process and who work for different firms. Setting you a Mentor-protege process is easy. We did something similar for CQE/CQM and APICS. All it takes are willing mentors and proteges. Voluntary to start. As the model matures, take the freakishly exhorbetant fees paid to sit the exams and shift to developing a Cadre of MBB’s at the local/chapter level that would provide cross-company/industry mentoring and Peer/Student review of project work, Change Agency and BB basic toolset knowledge.Cost for adding Rigor? How about the cost of continuing mediocrity?Cost of ditching exams? uh, null?

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    #187383

    Stevo
    Member

    As a hiring manager of Six Sigma professionals, anytime I see an ASQ certification – red flags go up.  Knowing that it is not hard to pass the test and get certified, those candidates need to be screened a little tighter.
     
    I know some of you think it is a marketing advantage, but it may be a liability.
     
    Just saying….
     
    Stevo
     
    P.s. – With all programs there are risks and I’m sure some very good belts have come out there.
     
    P.s.s – A certificate from SSSS (Stevo’s Six Sigma School) is always gold.  $19.99 plus S&H

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    #187385

    Valenti
    Participant

    For the SSSS certification, does the project affidavit actually have to be signed in a legible manner? Or dated? Or even in a distinguishable language?

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    #187386

    Stevo
    Member

    It’s mostly an honor system.  I don’t like to assign “requirements”.  US currency only.
    Stevo

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    #187389

    GB
    Participant

    Stevo wins for best posts of the day…

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    #187390

    Valenti
    Participant

    I agree. But the competition wasn’t much to speak about. Like having the best hog at the Maine State Fair.

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    #187393

    Mikel
    Member

    I have interviewed hundreds just in the last six months for a client. A
    general rule I’ve found is those who lead with how they were trained
    or how they were certified are losers. There are also ones that want to
    talk about ludicrous relationships with folks who are not with us –
    99% are fabrications.Good BB’s talk about what they’ve done and give direct answers to
    technical questions.And those who talk the most usually have the least to talk about.

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    #187394

    Mikel
    Member

    IASSC? What a bunch of con men.It is a worse joke than the ISSSP.Go make an honest living.

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    #187405

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Stevo:  It’s that $35k S&H that’s the killer!

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    #187406

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    As you demonstrate with nearly every post.

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    #187419

    Mikel
    Member

    Robert, we’ve missed you (not really).Go sell your fake certification to the linkedin crowd.

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    #187420

    Stevo
    Member

    It’s cheaper than some….
     
    Stevo
     
    Ps – Not available in Guam, Ontario and Wisconsin

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    #187421

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Good thing I already have my “paper”.  But then, I’m not in Wisconsin at the moment, or for about the next 6 mos.
    Besides, I’m pretty sure that I’ve been with your guys at 3 different companies over the past 10 years.  Case/Eaton/Rockwell sound familiar?

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    #187424

    Dharma Bum
    Participant

    Beware,
    Per another post, “Freddy” may actually be our friend of many names and seller of services, Robert S.

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    #187427

    Dharma Bum
    Participant

    Stan,
    Ya think it’s him?whoa…makes sense

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    #187428

    Valenti
    Participant

    To use your approach – Wrong

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    #187429

    Rider
    Participant

    Sirs,I read the following from the IASSC Web site: “The sole objective of the CBB and CGB exams is to measure knowledge not work or project experience.”Am I missing something or is this just plain stupid?Ghost Rider

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    #187430

    Rider
    Participant

    Sorry for my last, Sirs. I just read the IASSC Manifesto and have discovered the answer to my query.Ghost Rider

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    #187432

    Mikel
    Member

    Nope, I’m right.

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    #187434

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Hey, how ’bout the “non-Sirs?”

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    #187435

    Rider
    Participant

    Sir MBBinWI, I use the term generically. Ghost Rider

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    #187439

    Darth
    Participant

    Was starting to wonder myself and thought it was only me.

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    #187446

    Lisa Marie
    Participant

    Whoa – so this Freddy aka Robert S. was really serious about a certification for 19.99?  I thought he was joking which is why I didn’t even reply.  First of all that is really pathetic if he was being serious (are we sure about this) and second wasn’t he the one saying to go to a “training facility” because certifications don’t mean anything?
    Confused.
    Would the real Robert S. please stand up?!  =)

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    #187448

    Mikel
    Member

    Got to have a backbone to stand up.He is the classic anything for a buck kind of guy.

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    #187452

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    It was Stevo who had the cert for $19.99.  And yes, he was joking.

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    #187576

    q8ia
    Participant

    I am also searching for the same information…

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    #187585

    Steve T
    Member

    What are the thoughts about Villanova university and
    there six sigma program? It is 8 months total time to
    obtain a masters certificate in six sigma (2x 8 week
    classes and one 16 week class). Is that worth more
    then most black belt certifications???? Looking for
    honest industry experience replys

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    #187587

    Mikel
    Member

    I hear their Masters is the best hands down. GE pays a minimum of $300,000 for anyone who completes
    their rigorous program.

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    #187590

    Kluttz
    Member

    I have a real world data point for you;
    I had a candidate apply for a job in my group.  She completed Villanova’s BB program (in addition to all her other qualifications).  I offered her a job with a salary of about $45k.  She accepted.
    What would I have offered her without the Villanova certification?
    About $45k. 
    Do the math.  Certification without actual project experience?  Meh.

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    #187591

    Steve T
    Member

    Interesting. There is only one university in Canada
    that offers six sigma at the masters level period.
    Their program is 10.5k Canadian. York University

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    #187593

    Possible Human
    Participant

    45k really? You can make more at mcdonalds. You’re a cheap skate!
     
    Long live Villanova and online six sigma mills!

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    #187594

    Taylor
    Participant

    PH, Next time you have a thought,
    well nevermind, I think you thoughts speak for themself

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    #187596

    Reade
    Participant

    Lisa-Marie,ASQ does not offer Lean certification, only Six Sigma. ASQ has partnered with MoreSteam to offer online LSS training, but there is no certification offered with it. It’s an important distinction, since claiming to have Lean certification through ASQ is an outright lie.Also, I don’t understand why you keep claiming that ASQ is the governing body for Six Sigma. Here’s how ASQ describes itself, from the website:”ASQ is a global community of experts and the leading authority on quality in all fields, organizations, and industries. * As a professional association, ASQ advances the professional development, credentials, knowledge and information services, membership community, and advocacy on behalf of its more than 85,000 members worldwide.
    * As champion of the quality movement, ASQ members are driven by a sense of responsibility to enrich their lives, to improve their workplaces and communities, and to make the world a better place by applying quality tools, techniques, and systems.Long-known as the American Society for Quality and established in 1946, ASQ has been the sole administrator of the Malcolm Baldrige National Quality Program Award since 1991. ASQ marks the 25th anniversary of its International Team Excellence Award at the World Conference on Quality and Improvement in 2010. ASQ’s participation and influence in international standards includes its role as the administrator of the U.S. Technical Advisory Group of the ISO 26000 standard on social responsibility, to be released in 2010.”Six Sigma’s not mentioned, even in passing, and they certainly don’t claim to be the governing body. Please stop saying they do.

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    #187621

    Lisa Marie Nesbitt
    Participant

    Okay – signing off from this whole “blogging” experience – I am finding it a bit miserable really.  No offense, but some people seem to have entirely too much time on their hands and others look to one post and then comment as if they have read all of them.  For those that were great to chat with – thanks for your time (I assume you know who you are). 
    I am so greatly sorry that I accidentally put “Lean” in front of Six Sigma (since that is generally the wording used) – you got me – are you proud?  I am “so sorry” that I somehow offended you by saying they had a L6S certification – tough crowd…
    If you read the entire post you would already see what I said about ASQ and the “government” (notice that it is in ” ”  or is that too subtle for you?) I said they offered.  The whole point was that even though they did not set up to be the governing body that many companies USE THEM AS SUCH and thus the certification carries much weight!!!!!  I hear many individuals, and see it for myself with those that I consult for, require ASQ certification since they seem to have the most standards / largest professinoal outreach. 
     Perhaps if you looked a little deeper beyond the little snippet below that you were so kind as to cut and paste you would see that they are heavily involved with Six Sigma and that a portion of what they teach in their quality and improvement is Six Sigma.  Not to meantion, they hold an annual LEAN and Six Sigma conference every year. 
    As far as I (and most I am quite sure) are concerned this post is pretty much over – especially since this all stemmed from a question on training that spun a little out of control.

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    #187626

    bbusa
    Participant

    LisaDon’t lose heart and sign off , that would mean easy victory for all the villains of this site . In any case we have been discussing mostly crap on this site , barring a few useful posts.bbusa

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    #187628

    Lisa,By any chance, do you have a connection with Austin, Texas and East Kildbride Scotland.Best wishes,
    Andy

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    #187630

    Craig
    Participant

    hbgb B^2,
    Can you share your DOE with the forum communiy? It would be interesting to see how you designed it and how your response variables were measured. The validation of project affidavit seems like a yes/no sort of a response, but how didou obtain this data?  Not sure how you quantify rigor.
     

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    #187631

    zippo
    Member

    Bravo Lisa.  You like many other  have truly seen that this site has become a forum for childish bantering.  I use to recommend this site to my black and green belts but no more.  Maybe if we are lucky it will be yaken off the web.  Daily six sigma tips have become old repeating themselves every few days.  Little if no help is given by “STAN”, ” DARTH” and the likes of them.  They are only on this site to belittle.  They should read the eitquette guidlines especially the part on respect.

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    #187635

    Darth
    Participant

    Hey Zippy, There are a few more etiquette guidelines you forgot to mention. In fact, if you weren’t so hung up you might even be able to see the correlation with failure to follow them and some of the more direct responses by some of our more vocal posters. Then you might go back and see where they were followed and the quality of the response. 1. Starting a new thread. Nothing solicits forum responses more than a well thought-out problem statement (in the form of a question), accompanied by as much data as possible…..The more information you provide, the more likely someone is to respond. If the issue is clearly stated, it may even be highlighted in one of the iSixSigma newsletters with circulation of more than 40,000 professionals worldwide – a sure bet you’ll receive the input you need. 2. Search before you post. Many questions have been asked on the forum before. Prior to posting, readers should make a good faith effort to determine if a similar topic has been previously discussed. For example, if you want information about Black Belt certification, search the forum for “Black Belt certification” (sans quotes) and sift through recently discussed topics. Or, do a search of iSixSigma articles or check the Six Sigma Q&A article. (Or even Google)

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    #187638

    Mikel
    Member

    Maybe you’ll be yaken. Whatever that means.We should be so lucky

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    #187639

    Rider
    Participant

    Sirs,I must admit to be taken aback my zippy’s comment that perhaps this forum should be yaken off the Web. Does he mean to suggest that as he doesn’t agree with certain posters or postings that we should just reduce the entire forum to a memory? That sounds awfully harsh. zippy, if you don’t like the forum, don’t read it or post. I don’t like a good many things online, but to suggest that they be removed, yaken off as it were, is a step even I am not willing to take. I do hope I misunderstand zippy’s comment; I am, after all, not the brightest lighter in the box.Ghost Rider

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    #187643

    Taylor
    Participant

    Nope, what that means is his left Hand doesn’t know what his right hand is doing.
    Think about that one for a while

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    #187670

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Zippy must be a “progressive”

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    #187685

    Blacklabel
    Participant

    I dont know why everyone is being so hard on the lady who is talking about ASQ being the main certification body and telling her that they are not and that they have nothing to do with Lean either. The certificate they gave me after I passed their exam says “Certified LEAN Six Sigma Black Belt”, so in their own mind at least they think they have something to do with Lean. 
    So ok maybe ASQ is not the authority or governing body or whatever for Lean or for Six Sigma, but if ASQ is NOT the place to get your certification and you are required to get one then who/where IS the place to get certified?
    All I see here in this forum is people saying there isnt one. So ok do we just all “self certify” and all call ourselves Master Black Belts because “I know I can do that stuff”? ASQ seems as viable an option as any in my book, bottom line if you dont have the real world experience along with it then the certification is useless anyway, right? You either know how to do this or you don’t, that will be found out quickly in the workplace or an interview. To me, the ASQ certification process/exam is at least rigorous enough to weed out those people who have no business being Black Belts, that in itself is valuable enough.

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    #187742

    GB
    Participant

    wrong. wrong. wrong.

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    #187745

    Mikel
    Member

    The only problem is it doesn’t weed out people who shouldn’t be BB’s.
    I have never found anyone whose only cert was ASQ that was worth a
    poop.

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    #188333

    shawn
    Member

    I don’t this it was completely pointless. In fact I am glad you posted. I have been trying to get in touch with someone who trained in LSS because my company used to think highly of it until a new leader came in place.

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    #188334

    Lisa Marie
    Participant

    Well if you would like to rake this offline please feel free to email
    me at. [email protected] of luck,Lisa-Marie

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    #188388

    shawn
    Member

    Just an FYI – I tried to send an email to that address and it bounced back undeliverable. So hopefully its a type or you may not be getting email people are trying to send to you.

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