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Six Sigma Certification Not Needed?

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  • #33082

    Charles Waxer
    Participant

    Hi everyone,
    I’ve been thinking about the whole concept of certification recently after receiving a good number of emails from readers. I’d like to use this forum as a vehicle for sharing thoughts on the subject, and I’d like to start with the following statement:
    Six Sigma individual certification is not needed. Certification, by definition, is the act of a “certifying body” issuing a document attesting to the truth of certain stated facts related to your knowledge, skills and experience. Certification makes perfect sense in fields where one cannot directly measure the financial impact of the person’s actions to a business’ bottom line, such as accounting, information technology, legal, etc. You would never see certification being a pre-requisite for sales, customer account management, or other customer-facing activities; nor would you see certification required for CEOs, COOs or other CXOs of your organization. In these latter cases, it’s the benefits that a person provides that earn them a “seat at the table” and their compensation. The same should be true for Master Black Belts and Black Belts, since they contribute directly to the bottom line of organizations. Hiring decisions and compensation should be based on delivered results, not certification. (It goes without saying that education is a necessity to delivering results.)
    I have a feeling that a bee’s nest may be stirred up. I welcome the discussion.
    Regards,Charleshttps://www.isixsigma.com/library/bio/cwaxer.asp

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    #88957

    NewBB
    Participant

    I agree with your reasoning, but, as a manager  I check cerification when I hire people. It is one more piece of insurance – along with a thorough interview, checking references and hands on testing of stats ability, – that mitigates the problem of not getting any info from the candidate’s current employer.  

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    #88967

    DaveG
    Participant

    Mr. Waxer,
    I don’t think a certificate, or lack of same, is very important, with one important exception:  many hirers want Black Belts with pedigrees.  I chose to certify through ASQ because, even though I have implemented many effective process improvements, many companies would not talk to me.  Have I changed?  Not at all.  But I’m sure my resume opens more doors for me.

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    #88972

    Kiranjit
    Participant

    DaveG,
    I agree with you 100% – and I am doing the same even though I am already CQE, CRE, and CQA by ASQ.
    Good Luck on your exam!
    Regards,
    Kiranjit 

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    #88982

    Charles Waxer
    Participant

    NewBB,
    You say that you check for certification when you hire people, in that it is one more piece of insurance. That is an interesting point.
    Do you consider one certification to be worth more than another? For instance, is ASQ more valuable than IQF? Is IQF more valuable than XYZ?
    Why do you place a value on certification when there is no agreed upon body of knowledge or certification body for the certification that you’re looking for?
    And finally a third question, do you find that training from a Fortune 100 company is more valuable than “certifications” from bodies listed above? In other words, would you think twice about certification if the person applying for your job is coming from Motorola, GE or Allied?
    All these questions and your answers are not meant to be the end all be all of this discussion — don’t get me wrong. This is meant to continue the dialogue on the subject because I find it very fascinating.
    Regards,Charles

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    #88983

    rast67
    Participant

    Greetings,
    This whole certification issue is for the birds.  I have been “certified” through a company formerly known as Compaq Computers.  However, even so I am “certified” I will still have to go through my new company´s certification process.  As far as MBB is concerned, this is even a bigger farse.  I have meet “certified” MBB´s who have not even closed out one single project.  It is the people you know, not the knowledge you aquired when it comes to “certifying” a MBB. 
    What it all falls down to is the savings.  Can you deliver? Will a piece of paper on the wall “certify” that?  I think not.
     
    Rast67

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    #88984

    rtg
    Member

    I see your point as far as the certification process is concerned and the lack of standards.  I’ve always found it interesting that there is a methodology preaching standarized processes and there is no standardized process for certification.  I personally value my certification and feel that it truly added skills to my inventory along with value to my resume.  I think it depends on the organization.  However, you are right in that it all boils down to the bottom line.  I believe that you can compare certification to the executive leader who has made millions but doen’t even have a GED.  This fact doesn’t make him unqualified, but it would certainly be difficult to hire him just on paper, you have to see a track record just as with BB or MBB.

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    #88987

    LeanSigma
    Participant

    I agree 100% with you. I have known people doing MBB couses with out even saving a penny to the company and people developing courses for MBB !!! I also know some who just learned about Lean, Sigma, VSM etc,. just a year ago and being selected for MBB courses (not even having teaching experience) here I am doing Lean six Sigma since last 10 years saved company Million dollars but not selected for MBB course just because I am diffrent and I dont kiss some …

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    #88988

    Charles Waxer
    Participant

    RTG,
    Interesting point you bring up:

    I’ve always found it interesting that there is a methodology preaching standarized processes and there is no standardized process for certification.
    Do you think that Six Sigma has become so useful and popular because it can be customized to each business’ specific needs?
    Regards,Charles

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    #88989

    Dr. Scott
    Participant

    I do not mean to be difficult, but how have you been doing Lean Sigma for 10 years when it is a recently named new fad (maybe three years old)?
    My real point is; Many folks here are concerned (pro or con) with Six Sigma Certification. However, what about the fad of Six Sigma, or Lean Sigma, or ________ themselves? The tools and even the process now called Six Sigma has been around long before it was named Six Sigma. Indeed, the original process of Six Sigma lacked much.
    What ever happened to just good ‘ol process improvement?

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    #89001

    rtg
    Member

    Charles,
    Honestly, I didn’t really think of the customization of the methodology for specific businesses but you may have a point.  However, the tools are relatively standard so why could the certification be standardized.  Also, I wonder if the popularity may have come with monetary conservation of the late 90’s and good PR for people like Jack Welch.
    RTG

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    #89003

    rtg
    Member

    Dr. Scott,
    I think you bring up a good point.  I am thankful for my certification as it was a requirement of my employment.  However, I always tell people that the tools have been around and other very good methologies use the tools as well and you’re right…it is simply long standing process improvement (makes me think of “Cheaper by the Dozen”).  I think we are experiencing the backlash of the fad which can be very damaging to all of us, Six Sigma isn’t a magic trick.

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    #89004

    Linc from C town
    Participant

    I am not certifed or work for  fortune 100 company but I did stay at a Holiday Inn  last night,  what are my chances at getting hired?  All joking aside I work for a company that brought in a lot of MBB & BB from other companies that were so called “certified” that I do not feel have  a strong working knowledge of six sigma. I am currently enrolled in green belt training and have been getting the run around trying to get answers to basic  questions and have had to resort to posting questions to this forum. My feeling is that there needs to be a standardized method of certification for GB, BB, MBB. 

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    #89009

    Dr. Scott
    Participant

    I am not certifed or work for  fortune 100 company but I did stay at a Holiday Inn  last night,  what are my chances at getting hired?
    Should be as good if you have proven expeience at making good numbers go up and bad numbers go down.
    All joking aside I work for a company that brought in a lot of MBB & BB from other companies that were so called “certified” that I do not feel have  a strong working knowledge of six sigma.
    Careful here. Sometimes what sounds strange or odd seems wrong. Process Improvement has always faced that challenge.
    I am currently enrolled in green belt training and have been getting the run around trying to get answers to basic  questions and have had to resort to posting questions to this forum.
    First, how do you know they are basic questions, if you have not faced answering the questions yourself? Second, I know what you mean. Most people saying they know six sigma have not been there the way you have.
     My feeling is that there needs to be a standardized method of certification for GB, BB, MBB. 
    Ok, but whose standard?? Six Sigma is like any other “wannabe”. When done right, it makes good numbers go up and bad numbers go down. But when done wrong, it is just another worthless way. There is not ONE right or standard way to make good numbers go up and bad numbers go down.

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    #89046

    Laura
    Participant

    There are a lot of good points here.  When I have been hired and am hiring.  The references are important, but I always ask to see a copy of the profolio that many BBs and MBBs have which is the affidavids that have been signed by their prevous champions.
    I have also been told that there are a number of people in the major Six Sigma companies that are being trained as Black Belts, but are not given certificates.  This has a lot to with the fact of BBs and MBBs changing jobs and taking knowledge with them. 
    I will say that I had to work with a group to get my certifcation, but when I finally recieved my certification had completed over 14 documented projects.  I had over $200M in savings.  So to me it also depends on what you are hiring for.  I can tell you I am not an instructor, I do very well at the large project and project scoping.
    So it would be great to have at least some standards on what should be done for certification.  Or at least if there was a requirement to document or log any projects without to much information to give up company proprietery information.
    Also, the other items that is not really addressed at many companies is on going and sustaing training as well.

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    #89047

    T N Goh
    Member

    You are absolutely right, Charles! (Sane voices are rare nowadays). Certification by itself is not a bad idea, but too many have attempted to create a certification racket basically for self-serving purposes.  If you just look at the debates among the statisticians you will realize the futility of all the arguing – the issue of certification has been bugging them for decades, yet today there is still no official certification of so-called professional statisticians.  The fact is, good statisticians continue to do good work, and not so good ones get found out after some time. So let’s be honoest about this whole issue: in the field of Six Sigma, how good a person is cannot be satisfactorily reflected by any certification process – with due respect to the folks doing this at ASQ, etc.  The proof of the pudding is in the eating: I want an X-belt with a demonstrable track record to work for me, not just a “certified X-belt”.

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    #89050

    Pareto
    Participant

    Hi,
    I don’t agree with you. Money is a part of the issue, not the whole arguments. Six Sigma is a cultural change, and some good fellows can change your company withouth big savings, but your company/quality will increase in the next years and, as indirect effect, you’ll have bigger earns, for eg., but that money is not so simple to correlate to yours BBs. Then there are some strategic projects that BBs can complete that are VERY important for a Company, but because of their transational or simple strategic issue can not be easely connected to real money.

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    #89052

    Joy
    Participant

    Thats a pretty appropriate way of describing, I’d say.
    The problem is that many of the companies who maybe 10 to 20% the size of GE or Motorola tries to ape what their newly hired Quality Chief (typically from GE or Motorola) prescribe to their HR counterparts or CEOs as the case maybe.
    I know of at least one case where they wanted me to implement Six Sigma  (DMAIC) projects in a 1200 people strong localised organization when I had only had completed my training with a multilocation 150000 people strong company. And obviously it was a failure, without champions, MBBs or any external support. The President or COO most of the times did not even know there were Six Sigma projects going on in the company… and many a time the sales folks would ask for a “write up on our Six Sigma journey” to sell.
    So maybe a lot of the hirers believe that “Certification” maybe the only way out.
     

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    #89054

    Dojo Sweden
    Participant

    Charles,
    Im not sure that I understand your question.
    Regarding Certification of a certain skill, this is part of the whole 6S idea. Regardless of the company you recieve your training, if done properly, the certificate displays your skills within the 6S area to other companies. The certificate itself does not have any practical impact just like the diploma you recieve from school.

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    #89061

    Bob Gouwens
    Participant

    I am jumnping on just to learn other parties opinion about this interesting subject.
    Thanks, RGG

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    #89063

    howe
    Participant

    To certify, “to attest as being true or as represented or as meeting a standard” which in turn means certification is ensuring some one or thing meets certain standards.  As far as Black Belts or Master Black Belts there are certain standards we should meet in order to influence people or companies to meet the performance levels Six Sigma is known to give.  In past posting on this site I have seen questions regarding “qualifications” of Black Belts.  Just because someone has a degree in statistics doesn’t mean they can form a team and get that team to prefrom to the levels expected from Six Sigma.  They may be great at numbers but getting the “numbers” i.e. the team to the level expected may be another matter.
    I believe there should be some level of satandards established for being known as a Six Sigma Black Belt and a process such as the one for testing to get a Black Belt certification from ASQ.  But as we know there are those that are book smart but do not have the leadership qualities to form a team and get the results as a team versus as an individual.
    If a certification process also shows how well an individual can react to situations teams face, especially in the “stroming” situations then maybe the “certification” process can be more credible.  Also how well someone can convey and interact with the companies leadership in getting Six Sigma projects accomplished in a timely manner and with bottom line improving results, then we may have something.
    BB from ICT

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    #89064

    Drew, CVS
    Participant

    This has been a very enlightening discussion.  Not like some previous non-value added rants & tirades.  Thanks to you all for following Charles’ “high road” approach.
    My perspective on certification is that, if well founded, demonstrates that an individual has met the minimum standards for competence in a field.  Remember what they call a person who graduates last in their class in medical school?…..”Doctor”    That implies there are recognized standards and a well respected and unbiased certifying body (sounds like an acceptable MSA, doesn’t it?) that evaluates applicants’ to those standards.  I am associated with such an organization for Value Methodology – VM (or Value Analysis/Value Engineering) called SAVE International (formally Society of Value Engineers).  (See http://www.value-eng.org)  Their certification board assures that successful applicants have both training and experience in following the Value Methodology standard.  There are many people who practice “value something” and even sometimes improve value.  But many other just “cut costs” without considering the overall value (function & cost).    This causes erosion in the public’s view of VM.  I’m worried that this is beginning to happen with Six Sigma. 
    A well recognized standard and certifying body (ASQ, IQF, SAVE, etc) would “keep the bar up” rather than eroding a local certification process and thereby diminishing the practice and success of six sigma.
    That’s my $.02 worth.

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    #89065

    nancy
    Participant

    We have been having a lot of discussion around this particular issue in our Quality Department.  I have been arguing against “certification” and have been supporting the “results” theory.  If you have a proven record of improving efficiency by say 45%, who really cares whether or not you are “certified”.  Quite frankly, the “certified” black belts and master black belts in the Quality world that I have come across are more philosophers rather than doers.  Its really what you  know, how you apply it, and the results to the bottom line.

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    #89067

    Pipkin
    Participant

    There is theory – and there is reality.  Certification is theory – results are reality.  Depends on who you are talking to as to which one they are looking for.
    A certification (such as ASQ’s CQE) should only be used as a starting point.  You read the books, your passed the test.  Certification in Six Sigma is a little more complicated.  Know you are talking about dollars and cents (sometimes sense as well, if you’re lucky). 
    Anyone looking to hire someone for Six Sigma should ask the hard questions and know what they are looking for.  If you only rely on certification, you will end up with plus or minus 3 sigma for candidates.  On average you will be OK.  If you dig deeper, you move your results toward the “positive” side. 

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    #89069

    redsoxfan
    Participant

    Certification programs are designed to recognize the unique qualifications and expertise of those professionals engaged in a particular discipline. These certifications provide distinction in today’s economic climate and afford the opportunity to certify their expertise in areas that are critical to improving processes.

    Benefits: Communicate competency and subject mastery, obtain contemporary professional knowledge and develop skills and abilities that are valued by successful businesses, convey commitment to an exemplary standard of excellence, enhance career development and professional promotion opportunities. Unless a BB or MBB is home-grown, certification is just one element a prospective employer has in identifying qualified candidates.

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    #89074

    Bob Peterson
    Participant

    I would think certification is more like icing rather than the cake if I may be allowed the metaphor.  Achieving sustainable results is the bottom line issue, and certification does not necessarily lead to results.
    I would think there is value in certification for many individuals.  It is a bit like taking 3 college years of something and then not driving through to “graduation”.  That last year brings a lot of disparate concepts into focus.
    Bob Peterson

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    #89081

    Pipkin
    Participant

    There is theory – and there is reality.  Certification is theory – results are reality.  Depends on who you are talking to as to which one they are looking for.
    A certification (such as ASQ’s CQE) should only be used as a starting point.  You read the books, your passed the test.  Certification in Six Sigma is a little more complicated.  Now you are talking about dollars and cents (sometimes sense as well, if you’re lucky). 
    Anyone looking to hire someone for Six Sigma should ask the hard questions and know what they are looking for.  If you only rely on certification, you will end up with plus or minus 3 sigma for candidates.  On average you will be OK.  If you dig deeper, you move your results toward the “positive” side. 

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    #89083

    Wolfgang Kusser
    Member

    Dear Readers,
    As with many things I would say the need for certification depends. A pilot for example has to be certfied not only once but he/she also has to maintain certification  and I would think many would feel uneasy if that were to change. I respect certifications that are based on rigorous and comprehensive testing of knowledge and skills. Issuing certificates for mere attendance or disqualifying proven performers for lack of a certificate show that they cannot be used and applied the same way  across the board.
     

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    #89085

    Myles
    Participant

    I am in the results camp. There are very good people who are Lean – Six Sigma MBB trainers who can post a good resume, but do not have the skills to lead people through a project to produce new standardized work processes. The real resume must show me your portfolio of certified projects with before and after metrics and finance validated cost take out.

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    #89087

    Ovidiu Contras
    Participant

    So , what criterias do you have in mind for certifying things like : soft skills , teamwork , conflict resolution , driving change , that make the lion’s share for what a Black Belt should be good at ?

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    #89105

    T N Goh
    Member

    Yes Nancy, what you said needs to be repeated many, many times to HR types and decision makers who judge others (when it comes to Six Sigma) by certification papers!
     

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    #89110

    Gulshan
    Participant

    I do agree Certification must n’t  be considered  limitation to opportunities.

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    #89112

    Kim Niles
    Participant

    Great question Charles:
    Certifications are:

    some form of support for what we do and say
    a reward for some form of efforts made
    a cheerful reminder of some success in our area of interest
    a nice looking picture on the wall (art)
    a symbol of hope for our future
    a requirement for gainful employment
    a form of benchmark for our profession   
    a sales tool used to impress the customer as he / she enters your office
    an example of proof to show our parents that we lived up to their expectations
    a statement we make to our kids of what success is all about
    Like everything in life, there is variation in certifications such that some are hard to get, some easy, some costly, some nearly free, some highly correlated with abilities learned, some not, etc., but they are all valuable in some way or the other. 
    You brought up another excellent point, why don’t we have CEO certifications?  Don’t we think CEO’s should have proof of anything other than some form of prior success and or financial aptitude?  If only a small percentage of these recent Enron want-to-be CEO’s had prior basic ethics training, think how much better the world would be today.
    Sincerely,
    KN – https://www.isixsigma.com/library/bio/kniles.asp 

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    #89114

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Certification is a sort of proof for the personnel who has worked rigourosly using Six Sigma.  I had spent almost more than 4 years working through different phases of Six Sigma and for me it is a certification which qualifies me as an expert in Six Sigma methodology. Ofcourse it all depends on the Internal standards used.  In my Company… Six Sigma has always been given a High Regards and Priorities.  The training and the Certification criteria’s are very stringent and it makes sure that the person really deserves it or not.  I went through all the phases of the certifications.. Green, Black ( 2years full time with  4 million hard savings.. sustained ) and  MBB.  I really support the need for certification…

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    #89115

    Rudy Pilotto
    Member

    I agree with Charles Waxer’s comments re certification.  I get the feeling that the big business in six sigma these days is providing training for green belt, black belt etc.  
    My six sig experience goes back to 1990 when I attended seminars run by Mikel Harry from Motorola’s Six Sigma Research Institute.  I was working in the TQM field at the time so Six Sigma seemed a logical progression.  At that stage my associates and myself were already acutely aware of the need to properly implement, monitor and reinforce the leadership and cultural changes necessary inorder to make six sigma work.  We achieved (and continue to achieve) great results when we worked on changing leadership behaviours and performance management systems that reinforced continuous improvement, innovation and customer satisfaction. 
    Certification is ok because it provides a competence measure, it does not however guarantee success. 
     

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    #89116

    sreedher
    Member

    In my opinion there does not exist one single answer to this question.  You will find people who have recruited ‘certified’ people but in vain, as results did not show up, on the other hand you will find companies who have recruited people without certification in six sigma black belt, but found employment profitable.  I hope many would agree to the fact that, business results is something which cannot be achieved by having just ‘qualified’ or ‘certified’ people around. It involves many other aspects such as leadership, vision and the commitment of the executive leadership to visualize, organize, train, and lead the organization to achieve the business vision.  Having qualified / certified people is just a part say 20%, (if you visualize it in 80/20 rule). 
     
     

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    #89118

    Soumish Dev
    Member

    Albeit, certification is essential to test a BB’s credibility, but it depends how did he get his Certification and also from where.
    However, other than Certification one should also look in to how many BB projects did he complete with the kind of rigour in terms of analysis, tools and methodologies followed, timeline of the project and also the versatility of the projects the BB has completed. One should also look in to the mentoring the BB has provided to other BB’s/ GB’s and other members.
     
    Soumish

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    #89119

    Certificate less
    Participant

    I don’t have a certification – and I also don’t have a formal degree either (okay I was stupid and dropped out). However, I have over 20 years experience with process improvement, total quality, etc. Saved my former employer a heap of money…. but all that being said – when I was laid off, my job search was hindered by the lack of either a certificate and/or diploma.
    I was actually told by some that if I had gotten the certificate, I would havae been hired despite the lack of a diploma.  Not that the certifcate would have made me any smater…. it just would have gotten my foot in the door.
    Personally, as a someone in charge of hiring – I would rather see the results versus looking a piece of paper called a certificate.  However, because there is a fixation on those little pieces of paper… a lot of good people, with impressive track records, are overlooked simply because they don’t.
    Personally, I don’t care about the certification – but professionally, if I am ever job-hunting again… that piece of paper would be nice to have.
    Bottom-line – certificates don’t make you smarter – but they can get your foot in the door.

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    #89125

    Hemant Urdhwareshe
    Participant

    I tend to disagree! With this logic, no certification is required. Neither engineer, nor doctor etc! Ultimately doctors performance is measured by how many patients he/she is able to cure. Similarly, an engineers performance can be evaluated by quanitified performance measure depending on nature of work. A certified black belt is likely to deliver better and quicker results.

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    #89127

    sreedher
    Member

    Quite true: and I understand your position.  We may further consider the case to be:
    Certification is needed – for an individual – when you are on the lookout for an opening and certification is one of the criteria.  But the hirers should not make it the sole criteria.  Full points should be given if he/she has achieved business results without certification, if bottom line improvement is what matters to the company.
    Certification is not needed – when the company is just bothering about what can a ‘prospective’ candidate add to the bottom line of the company.  Certification may or may not prove critical over here.  It is a representative of your knowledge, but knowledge is not all that is needed to bring about improvement.  There are ‘skills’ and ‘attitudes’ as well.
     

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    #89138

    BLOCKED
    Participant

    ~BLOCKED~

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    #89145

    David Oakley
    Participant

    Charles
    I started using Six Sigma in the mid 80’s. I was laid off earlier this year. In my resume and elevator speech I list the training that I have had, some of the projects that I have done and the total confirmed savings of the projects.
     
    I recently took a class and obtained a Six Sigma Green Belt. I’m now getting more responses from job applications and more referals from people that I network with. I think that people can relate to “Green Belt” better than they can “improved quality of composite assemblies”.
     
    David

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    #89292

    Donna Whitaker
    Participant

    I am a recent graduate of IS with a concentration in PM. I am also returning to Grad School in November for a second Masters.  It is s abit disturbing to me that everything I look at has like 10 years of experience or certification. I am not close to being certified but how is a recent graduate to get experience if they are not given a chance.
    I went back to school because I was tired of running down the deadend jobs going no where and using no brain power. So I decided to work towards certification myself.
    I don’t think certification should be the sole basis for hiring someone but it certainly show they are a Master in their Field.

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    #89421

    Paul M. Mrozinsky
    Participant

    I am an EE who has worked 25 years of my career in the fossil fuel industry. This avenue took me through many of the fossil fuel fired generating stations in the US and abroad. When I add that to the myriad of coal preparation plants and coal sampling systems that I have engineered during those years, I have an expanse of knowledge and experience that today is not in demand minus Six Sigma which was not part of that industry.Two major stumbling blocks to stepping into another “electrical engineering discipline” are the famous Six Sigma Green or Black Belt certification and the DOD secrete security clearance. These are being added to the requirements to qualify many of the undefined engineering qualities in the rush to fix our utility power problems together with our “Home Land Security” issues. There are a myriad of jobs for the electrical engineer with these “political correct” attachments to their BSEE degree and experience. The real problem with the situation is that one cannot just take a continuing education class to acquire a Six Sigma certification, and a DOD secrete security clearance. The objective is not to generate these individuals but to entice them from another employer.I have done considerable research on Six Sigma and although many engineers with 15 – 20 years of accomplished experience are performing in the Six Sigma guide lines, the management world wants to see certification rather that expence the time to investigate an individuals accomplishments. This certification has become part of the “Lean and Mean” mentality of 21st century business.During the 1970’s bean counters covered the manufacturing floors assessing the productivity of the workers. Today that efficiency monster is again upon us in the guise of Six Sigma, only this time for management personnel instead of labor. As long as the time factor to investigate a prospective employee cannot be tolerated then Six Sigma certification will be remain the “Lean and Mean” justification for it.”Been There, Done That”

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    #95300

    black belt
    Participant

    Do not agree with what is stated here….its a must & amount of devotion expected from BB/ MBB into the job will not be there.

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