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Six Sigma (good for semiconductors- nobody else)

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  • #38872

    Broomfield
    Participant

    Lean /6 sigma / etc; = Too little, too late !Inspecting in quality is little different from building in quality. six sigma is just an academic’s avoidance of facing the fact that quality is designed in. How many of the great gurus were designers ? or come to that, ever made anything using their own skill? Most gurus are really salesmen selling ” The kings invisible suit of clothes” (Hans Anderson)
    This is why few ideologies are directed at design quality – its beyond their understanding.
    I have been in engineering (and quality)for over 40 years and have never seen any of these very costly ideologies achieve the claimed benefits. The only one who talked any sense is the late Phil Crosby.
    Quality and cost savings are designed in – addressing quality afterwards is just human waste !
    Alan – MIEE, MIQA

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    #116985

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Alan,
    British institutions are well known for their creativity and inventiveness. What they are not known for … is an ability to design production-worthy products :-)
    Andy
     

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    #116986

    Broomfield
    Participant

    Quite agree andy,
    look back and you will see that britain has a dreadful record of designing expensive unmanufacturable products that are subsequently cancelled due to the cost / quality concerns.
    Their is nothing SQA can do to an incoming product to make it better than when it left the factory.
    Equally their is no point in Lean manufacturing / six Sigma etc trying to save money by complex process controls when the designer could have designed out process variability.
    Think differently, grease is almost always an excuse for poor mechanical enginering. Work it out – for example a simple screw breds the need for other work and other parts faster than rabbits bred each other.
    Lean / Six Sigma / SPC are all too late and just add cost, – tackle the problem at birth.
    Design quality is the way forward. Just think about a while and you will see its right.
    Thanks for responding.
    Alan

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    #116987

    Ron
    Member

    No one can really believe that an engineer can eliminate process variaition do they!  If they do they do not understand what process variaition is.
    A product designed poorly has little chance of improving during processing, however, the variation inherint in a process will always be there unless someone does something to improve it. Just as a poorly designed product can only get better if it is re-engineered to improve.
    That is why we developed the Design For Six Sigma curriculum to teach engineers how to do a better job designing products in the first place.

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    #117001

    Mikel
    Member

    Alan, you had me in your camp until you got to the Crosby statement – and then it hit me – this guys not on the right track, he just does not have a clue hat he is talking about.

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    #117005

    Darth
    Participant

    Alan, I believe that if you study the history of Six Sigma, you might discover that Bill Smith and the gang at Motorola developed the concept within the context and need of design work.  As for Crosby, I agree with Stan, he was the biggest salesman of them all.  Lots of hype, little substance, no methodology and a quick demise.
    Darth – BSIE, MSIE, MBA, PhD, BFD, Lord of the Darkside

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    #117007

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Alan,
    I seem to have a different view than the others. I do believe you have your head so far up your butt that you would have to cut switchbacks to find it.
    The assumption that everyone except a designer is a second class citizen. Pretty elitist attitude. Most DMAIC projects stem from launching something that has design flaws or the production side problems could have been avoided or minimized with an integrated design team (include some of those second clss people).
    Before you get yourself to puffed up about all this maybe you need to take a look at the quality Toyota produces – basically a disciplined approach to what the US has renamed Lean. Another idea that has been proven to work but you can’t seem to figure out.
    Crosby on a good day was cheer leader. I believe it has been called Quality by exhortation. Your hero in my opinion is about as shallow as spit.
    “Costly idealologies.” Cost measured how? Deployments done well pay for themselves. Nothing is more costly than launching a bad design and we have already covered that.
    I suppose we are supposed to be impressed with your 40 years. What sigma level are you launching your products at?
    The last time I heard Six Sigma – Good for Semiconductors – nobody else – was from that visionary group in the mid-90’s that ran Compaq. They turned out well – lets drive a business that is number 1 to being bought out. You might fit right in.
     

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    #117009

    Broomfield
    Participant

    Many thanks for all your replies its good to talk and to know that we can’t always agree – just like all other professions. You have all made some good points as I hope I do.We all work for competative companies so we can each practice our favorite ideas and learn from from them (as I have done).
    One final word – I have noticed over many years
    “There is never enough time or money to do it right but always enough time and money to put it right”.
    hope to meet up with you all one day,
    all the best
    Alan

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    #117011

    walden
    Participant

    Alan,
    Agree with Mike on this one.  Check your history…
    Six Sigma cut its teeth in the design realm.  Why would someone outside of design modify Six Sigma to suit their needs?  Hmmm, maybe because it works (and works, again, and again)?
    As for gurus, any self professed guru should be viewed with caution, no matter how many years experience or what their results.  The designation of “guru” or “expert” implies they have *the* answer, which is nonsense.  Crosby read one book by Deming and was a self proclaimed guru?
    Just my opinion,
    Chris

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    #117017

    Mikel
    Member

    BFD?
    Stan – BSIE, MSIE, MBA, GPMBB, DHAC

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    #117018

    Mikel
    Member

    I thought Compaq was the definition of world class – go figure.
    Have you read Product Developement for the Lean Enterprise by Kennedy? If not, give it a try. The ideas are rational and beat the pxxp out of the world class developement processses all the guys are out there paying so much for.

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    #117020

    Anna O’Connell
    Participant

    Hi Alan –
    While I disagree with some of what you say, I think you are right on in noting that it is impossible to inspect quality into a product.  However,  on both 6 Sigma and the Brits, you are slandering at least a few people who I know deserve better. 
    Back in the 1980’s, when  6 Sigma was being invented, Motorola was also very actively pursuing the “Design for Assembly” methodology, which was originated and popularized by Geoff Boothroyd and Peter Dewhurst, a pair of Brits.  But, like many prophets, they had not been sufficiently honored (with profits) in their own country, and so came to the United States.  I became a Ford Motor DFA Specialist and one of the reps to Boothroyd and Dewhurst’s  ?University of Rhode Island “corporate advisory committee” in 1988
    Based on the reports from Motorola staff who were active in the DFA program at the time , the DFA people and training for the engineers (delivered via Motorola University) were added to / combined with the 6 Sigma initiative with especial attention to design efforts.  The reason they gave for this, more than once, and in multiple forums, was that Motorola just couldn’t break through a “quality barrier” around 4.5 – 5 sigma UNLESS they re-designed the product to 1) minimize the number of separate parts (ie. minimize pyhsical interfaces where variation affects functionality) and 2) minimize the products’ sensitivity to inherent process variation. 
    But this takes time, and effort, and training for lots of people.  It also absolutely requires that the designers get clued in to what variations are inherent to the various processes which will be used, and what the process capability really is.  Whan I left Ford, almost 3 years ago now, the people in Ford’s 6 Sigma office were just beginning to get the data that was going to lead them to the same conclusion experienced at Motorola 10 years earlier.  You can’t get 6 Sigma quality by addressing and improving ONLY process variation.  You must also design (or re-design) the product to be as immune as possible to process variation.
    On the other hand, to be fair to the finance folks, you also cannot wait for your entire product line to be re-designed and released to realize cost savings and quality improvements.  You’d be long out of business. 
    Anna O’Connell                                                                                                          (The once and future Annonymous!)
     

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    #117021

    Darth
    Participant

    Big Fxxxxxx Deal

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    #117022

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Stan,
    I am assuming that the Compaq comment was a little sarcastic. I think you tolerated more crap from the Church Group than I did. I didn’t have to deal with them that much.
    I’ll get the book, I haven’t read it yet. I did read one by a lady who is autistic and develops handling equipment for cattle. It was very interesting to see how she leared to use her thought process to her advantage. I can’t remember the name of it.
    Regards

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    #117025

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Sir Ronald Fisher (a Brit) made a fairly significant contribution as well.

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