iSixSigma

Six Sigma in China

Six Sigma – iSixSigma Forums Old Forums General Six Sigma in China

Viewing 81 posts - 1 through 81 (of 81 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #31055

    David Sanchez
    Participant

    My company is looking at the opportunity of opening offices in Beijing, China. Does anyone have any experience or know any Six Sigma contacts in China that I could hook up with and share experiences?Regards, Dave.

    0
    #81625

    NKK
    Participant

    Hi David, I’m a quality consultant from Malaysia. Please email me at [email protected]

    0
    #81626

    Withheld
    Member

    Industry that is subsidized by a Communist government, no human rights, no environmental standards and a GDP per capita about 1/8 that of the USA and you want to add 6S to the competitive edge???
    Wow.

    0
    #81627

    HGC
    Participant

    David Sanchez, I think you are taking on an admirable endeavour. May success attend your efforts.
    “Withheld”, jumping the gun a little on whether or not 6S would survive in Chinese business? Don’t all businesses have a set process that is followed? Do not all processes have room for improvement?
    Are you sure you were properly trained in 6S methodology? Or maybe you skipped a few chapters in your “6S for Dummies” book? Let me remind you of one of the fatal flaws when trying to implement anything using 6S methodology, DO NOT JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS. But maybe you’re “that guy”. Take care.
    HGC

    0
    #81628

    Heebeegeebee BB
    Participant

    Actually, I’d have to agree with “Withheld”.    The Welch’s, Bonsignore’s, and the CFR have already undermined the US’ econmic position in Asia, now 6S on top of it???   Forget it.    Though of  1/4 Chinese heritage, I can’t suport such an undertaking in light of China’s abysmal Human rights record, not to mention there unfettered access to US markets.   Who do you think makes all of those little kick-knacks, toys, sandals and other cheap goods we use everyday?   It is well-documented that the Chinese gov’t turns a blind eye to child labor, prison/slave labor and  the like when it comes to the Billions they make.    I remember a WSJ story a few years ago about the summary field execution of a factory Manager whose quality metrics were down and his scrap/rework numbers were high.    The “factory Vanguard” (read: political officers)   charged him with treason (gov’t owned factory) and had him taken out back and shot.
    Now someone wants to intro 6S to make a quick buck?!?!?!?!?IMHO that would be a morally-reprehensible act.   Unfortunately, I’ll bet that several of the “big dawgs” have already done so through their mainland affiliates.
    my $0.02 (and some!)
    -Heebee

    0
    #81631

    GoAhead
    Participant

    If you have ever been to China in recent year, you will have different opinions. You can find the best world-class facilities in China. Some of the large local enterprises started Six Sigma about two years ago, and some large US companies like GE and Motorola have transferred Six Sigma concepts to their facilities in China years ago
     
    In order to implement Six Sigma successfully, like here in US, the most difficult part is not about using the statistics but building up the whole Six Sigma management scheme and changing the culture. Give me an email at [email protected]. I can share my experiences in implementing ISO9000 and SPC in China with you.
     
    Logan

    0
    #81633

    J. P. Rothery
    Participant

    Hi David
    I have been based in China for the last few years working for a very dynamic Chinese software developer. I was responsible for the companies first year of Six Sigma deployment. I have to say one of the most rewarding experiences in my working life was providing 6S training to my Chinese colleges. The company has a very strong 6S and CMM deployment policy and is very much open to change and quantum improvement.
    I detect a certain amount of resentment in this thread, which will get your economies nowhere. The lack of understanding and comprehension of the Chinese culture, economy, and the misrepresentation of China by western media will allow the Chinese become a dominator of the world market leaving the traditional big guys behind.
    Some of the worlds biggest companies are outsourcing huge amounts of work to China. This trend is growing at a fantastic rate because (don’t laugh) the high quality, low cost, and the Chinese ability to ramp up to the challenge of providing products and services.
    I will not pass comment on the derogatory remarks made in this thread because I do not think it is politically correct, but I will say this where is your data try living here move out of Smallvill.
    David if you have any questions or need any help let me know.
    Kind RegardsJ P Rothery

    0
    #81634

    Murray
    Participant

    Hi Withheld,are you a politician of six sigma? I don’t think there is any relation between 6s and Communist government. I can hardly believe you know anything about 6s or china.

    0
    #81637

    David Sanchez
    Participant

    J.P.,
    Thank you for the information, sounds like we could do this and get some return success.
    I’d like to schedule a phone call or email chat with you, as I think you have some interesting points.
    Can you drop me you details to [email protected]
    Thanks,
    David.
    p.s. Mr withheld, thanks for your comments….. not unlike the former Chinese Government….you seem to be hiding behind a vail of secrecy. Thanks for your support!! 

    0
    #81640

    Wingjohn Lau
    Member

    Withheld,
    I have to say that your comment is absolutely bull shit. Come to China and open ur eyes. U r welcome anytime.

    0
    #81643

    Withheld
    Member

    Wingjohn,
    Is it possible that you read some things into my brief comments that were not said? The comments I made are quite easy to verify. Which of them drew your fire and why?

    0
    #81644

    Withheld
    Member

    Nick,
    I have reread my comments and wonder which of them would lead you to your conclusion? Let’s assume you have concluded correctly about my lack of knowledge. Please correct my ill-informed comments with the facts.

    0
    #81650

    Heebeegeebee BB
    Participant

    Interesting development of this thread.  
    No one seems care much about the morality of assisting an oppressing regime in attaining world-class economic status.    The majority of responses seem to be dealing with the acceptance/success/etc… of 6S methodology in Chinese business.    The moral ambiguity I sense in this thread  is really shocking to me.
    Can the 6S community be successful in China?   You bet!   However, the real question is not “Can we” be successful, but rather, “should we” choose to sell our souls to make a name and a few bucks in an emerging market that openly dismisses the idea of equality, democracy and individual thought/expression?  
    Again, I know that many companies wish to take advantage of China as an emerging market.   -Makes good business sense.   but what about the human cost of doing so?
    As for being politically correct, you can throw that nonsensical idea out the window.   IMHO, Political correctness is nothing but a veil which folks can hide behind because they lack the courage of their convictions.   
    My family has a long history of being on the wrong end of the oppressors whip.   My Grandmother, born in Indonesia to full-blooded Chinese parents, suffered terribly, first at the hands of the invading Japanese Army (interred in a concentration camp on Sumatra), then by the post-war Indonesian nationalists and finally by the ChiCom-backed Indonesian Communist revolution.    My Grandfather, of Dutch-Indonesian heritage (due to the Dutch- East India Company’s foray’s into an “emerging market” in the 1600’s) ended up in a separate concentration camp and died as a result.   In both cases, they fell victim to a regime which invaded solely for Indonesia’s vast resources and logistical opportunities (rubber, coal, iron, gold, etc…)
    I’ve seen, first hand, the scars and the hurts of such regimes.
    All I ask is that we weigh the human impact of aiding and abetting a Nation/Gov’t which is so openly brutal to those it means to rule.
    -Heebee 

    0
    #81651

    BB GEE BEE
    Participant

    Hi Heebeegeebee BB
    I totally agree with you – if we were really smart and we improve our processes we would be able to dramatically reduce our products costs.  For example if we lean out our processes we would no longer have the warehouses full of inventory that is necessary if you order product from overseas.
    We need to take a systems view of our manufacturing/logistics and if we’re smart we’ll keep it inhouse and improve our overhead absorption rate and protect our long term future.
    If I buy “stuff” it better have a made in USA, UK, Germany or Scandanavia on it or elso I dont buy – keep the work in countries that pride quality, workmanship and morals.
    have a safe flight home Heebeegeebee BB.

    0
    #81655

    The Flow Guy
    Member

    Pretty lively discussion thread. My initial thought is: Wow. A few of those summary executions ought to help squelch some of that nasty old “resistance to change” we keep discussing. I wonder if my corporation would consider letting me take a few of my resident “cement heads” out back and shoot ’em?
    To David Sanchez:
    Now that I have had my small attempt at humor, I can relate my own experiences in China. I have done some Lean Projects and Six Sigma projects there.  I found it a very rewarding experience, but the cultural roadblock you really have to face there is getting them to switch from the ingrained “loss of face” oriental mentality and embrace the “make it ugly” concept so they can make the root causes visible and solve the problems.
    As for our political contributors in this thread:
     Look at the timelines and find me a country that hasn’t at some point operated at less than an acceptable level of Human rights and I’ll send you my next paycheck. Ever heard of the American Indian? Let me think, weren’t we fighting a war less than 50 years ago where we weren’t even letting another race sleep in the same barracks? (While at the same time we chastised the other countries on human rights issues).
    Given China’s ramp up on the social scale just in the last 10 years I would expect that those of you waving the “They are commies”  flag out there would be harder to come up with viable ammo in as little as 10 years from now.
    Myself?  I am a little more interested in continuous improvement than politics regardless of the source or challenge. If we in the US don’t accept the same challenge and make the commitment to continuous improvement to try to maintain or increase whatever edge we hold on Industry and technology; then that’s the nail we put in our own coffin by not embracing the techniques as thouroughly as asia. Does the name Deming ring a bell?
    Just an opinion
    The Flow Guy.
     

    0
    #81658

    Heebeegeebee BB
    Participant

    Ah yes,Mr. Deming…Who, by the way, went to POST-WAR Japan and helped them to rebuild.    POST-WAR indicates the disintegration of the Imperial Japanese Army’s control over the governing of  the country.   Post-War Japan was under the control of an American Military Governor and the goal was to rebuild Japan from the ground up and “bring them into the fold”.   This forced us out of our isolationist shell and opened our culture to the idea of international trade w/ asia.   Note however, that we didn’t go into Japan to aid/abett/assist/rebuild, until we forced them to there knees via “fat-man” and “little boy”..   Once Japan capitulated, the US chose to rebuild and nurture a new Japan.   Their success is evident.   
    China, I feel, can be dealt with in a similar manner, although without the need for WMD’s.   The US is in a unique position to influence China’s political and economic policies in a peaceful environ.
    I agree with you concerning the U.S. embracing change and C.I., however, your ref to Native Americans treatment doesn’t hold water.    Yes, the US treated the Native population horribly…about 150-200 years ago, but since, “we have repaired “ourselves”.    There is much more to do, but the outright oppression has stopped.   Today, we have a real chance to influence China to repair themselves in the area of Human rights.
    As to your other analogy of segregation, again, “we” have repaired “ourselves”, while China has not.   Look at the the issue of Taiwanese separatists.    This struggle for freedom could very well turn into a war.   And for what?   Because the Mainland gov’t covets what is not theirs.
    China’s ramp up on the social scale?   Come on, let’s be realistic.   The trade balance between the US and China is so out of whack, it’s scary.   We are continually flooded with goods while we have to pull teeth to import a few cars.   Did you know that counterfeit Jeep Cherokees are being pumped out by the thousands in gov’t owned factories?
    ridiculous.
    oh yeah, your “commies are coming” comment evidences your lack of understanding of the point of my initial post.    I’m not the rabid right -winger you seem to think I am.   However, my opinions of the “-ism’s” is solely based on the effects upon family, friends and associates who have endured the unimaginable.   There faces tell the whole story, there scars shout it to the world.
    There are many posters who know first hand, what living under the thumb of such systems is like.   Many risk their lives by visiting and posting to websites like this one.   
    Again, my reason for posting initially was to raise the question of Moral ambiguity, not effectiveness or cultural acceptance of 6S.
    Heebee

    0
    #81659

    billybob
    Participant

    Hello folks,
    I for one have never had a shirt lost or for late for pick up at my local Chineese Laundry.  I think they know well how to be lean and the basics of JIT. 
    The rye-bakery on the other hand keeps running out of ryes late in the day.  How can they use 6S to know just what the customer requires?  
    My Italian taylor had to alter my suit three times before it fit right. Whats the COPQ? 
    I won’t even go into the roaches at the Greek sandwich shop.
    Happy Holidays,
    Billybob, Ma, and Possums

    0
    #81660

    Withheld
    Member

    Flow Guy,
    Your comment regarding acceptance of the challenge and nailing coffins deserves a response.
    We in the USA do not need to “accept” any challenge as you describe it since such acceptance is implicit with the fact that the vast majority of the world’s technologies and methodologies are invented, tested, improved and perfected here long before they are seen and enjoyed elsewhere. That fact is mainly attributable to our system of government – one in which the vast potential of humankind is *free* to strive to reach its full potential in whatever form that potential exists.
    The same is not true of other forms of government – such as that which exists in China. The *people* of China are blessed with the same potential as any people anywhere and I doubt many would argue that point. The *government* of China is the issue.
    My figures are off the top of my head, but the GDP per capita in China is about $4K while the GDP in America is about $32K. That fact speaks directly to the ability to “compete.” Add to that the strict environmental controls placed upon industry that help support the quality of life we enjoy, the strict laws regarding worker’s rights and protection of children, etc, etc, etc … all of which help support the significant quality of life we enjoy, and compare it to the repressive Communist regime in China.
    If the measuring stick is “price,” how can “we” compete? Indeed, why would “we” want to try?

    0
    #81663

    Arthur
    Participant

    I read in the paper the other day the U.S. put a high embargo on the importing of steel.  It appears that the European community has to lay-off thousands of workers to reduce they steel production because the U.S. cannot compete do to poor productivity.  So now pressure is being put on the steel industry. (Perhaps some of you lean experts should look into it, bet it pays pretty good, especially with U.S. pressure).  Or maby they could bring their technologies here and hire americans.
    So here we set, pompass-ass-americans thinking there is no other country that can out manufacture us.  If we sit long enough even the Japaneese will out produce us in quality goods. Oops, forgot they already have.  Well then maby some day the Germans will out engineer us. Oops, forgot, they already have.  Well, then many China will combine their endless resourse of people and out produce us… like maby Mexico is doing.  Oops, their already trying to do so.  Oh, well, forget what I said, its more fun being a pompass-ass.
     
     

    0
    #81665

    Withheld
    Member

    Maby, just maby.

    0
    #81666

    a Chinese black belt
    Participant

    You must have never been to China. May I remind you that Six Sigma is fact based methodology. So please see with your eyes and what an emerging market really means.

    0
    #81668

    Jackie
    Participant

    Hi guys,
    I am from the People’s Republic of China. I guess you guys have never been China according to the discussions posted here.
    Yes, China need to improve in many aspects, such as human rights etc. especially in economy. Communist is not stupid, (otherwise how could they rule a country as big as China) they know the improvement of people’s lives will not only benefit them, but also consolidates their ruling. So, any technology that promotes the economic development of China will be definitely welcome. As a matter of fact, Chinese policy in economy is approaching to western model, many private enterprises are rising and become the main stream of the economy of China. They are looking forward to adapting international latest standard and advanced production and management methods. China is a place, where a huge market is opening, to make money, but not a place for politics. So, you have to know what you want from China before making a decision, money or politics. Besides, the Western media only focus on the dark side of China, seldom mentions the improvement and development of China. (I am in North America now, what I said all are based on what I see.)
    By the way, I want to say, politics itself is dirty, the only difference between so called western democratic system and Chinese whatever system is the way in which politicians reach their target. Therefore, don’t think about what kind of political environment you are in, the politics always serve for economy.
    Ok, hope help to you guys
    Jackie
     
     

    0
    #81669

    daihl
    Participant

    I want to know whether GE get so much by six sigma?

    0
    #81679

    Edwards
    Participant

    Witheld,
    That’s what I like to hear!!!  As long as Americans like you sit back on your @ss, with the no one can touch us mentality,  countries like ours will forge even further ahead than we already are.  Wake up and smell the bull shit that seems to flow from you.
    Merry Xmas, david

    0
    #81680

    Withheld
    Member

    Merry Christmas to you as well, David.
    I have noticed a recurring trend during this discussion. The people that take issue with the comments I’ve made sling insults without addressing any issues. I’ll ask you the same question I’ve asked the others: Which of my comments drew your fire?
    By the way, you summarized my point of view incorrectly.

    0
    #81690

    Peter Martin
    Participant

    Withheld
    I wonder if your original intent has been misunderstood a little.  Am I correct in assuming that you believe that 6S in China will provide an even greater competitive edge than what they have already and some of the reasons for that competitive edge are as you stated, albeit a little carelessly?  From afar the emotive responses you generated seem a little out of character for those espousing 6S philosophies.
    We all have industries that are subsidized by our respective gov’ts to varying degrees, usually to suit particular political purposes.  Your “no human rights” comment may have been better rephrased.  Human rights certainly do exist in China, maybe different to what we are used to, but, have we got it right yet?  We should draw aside the drapes, lift up the carpet and look in our own backyards first.  I’m not sure why you raised this point?  Were you suggesting that the Chinese workers are being exploited and that this gives them a competitive edge?  The Chinese workers I have met and worked with are certainly not being exploited and are in fact very proud of what they are doing and achieving.  Is it true that once you have been to prison in America you become a felon, and in most States you don’t get your civil rights back?  
    Environmental standards certainly do add to the costs of doing business – I’m not sure about there being no environmental standards in China, except to say that if this is the case then what can we say about the morals of the Western Multi-Nationals flocking into China to open up new production facilities.  Remember these people have been living and working on the land for thousands of years and probably have a far greater affinity for the environment than we do. 
    A GDP per capita about 1/8 that of the USA – is this the best metric you can come up with.  Your way may not be the best way for everybody.  Here are some other metrics:  life expectancy for men; proportion of 18 year olds with no vocational nor academic training; social mobility (exit rates from poverty from the botton 20% for eg); the gap between Chief Exec and Blue-Collar salaries; output per man hour, and so on.
    Of course 6S will give the Chinese a further competitive edge and you were so right to say “Wow”, but not for the reasons you suggested.  I have just returned from 2 weeks of teaching 6S in China and all I can say  is that I was mightily impressed.  Teamwork has long been  emphasised in Six Sigma training – it’s like a second skin over there.  Their attitude to work is not as confrontationist as we often experience.  And of course the cost of living is not as great, but that is changing.  And finally they have a respect for knowledge I wish my students had!
    Sorry folks, lecture finished.
    Peter Martin
     

    0
    #81691

    zhou
    Participant

    To all not having been here,
    When asked about impression of China, all 7 American collegues told me ‘ …much different from what i thought of’ after their 1st visit here. If you have chance to be here,i’m sure the probability that you’ll have the same feeling is >0.99999…
    David
    Welcome to China. This is a land full of hope and opportunities.
    Besides Beijing, Shanghai and Sehnzhen are good consideration also
    A Chinese BB

    0
    #81694

    Jacqueline CUI
    Participant

    Great comment, objective and philosophical.
    Jacqueline
     

    0
    #81711

    Withheld
    Member

    Peter,
    You’re correct that it seems my original intent was misunderstood, but that’s ok. If you look back you’ll see that I’ve used very few words in this discussion. That is because I stated rather easily supported facts (http://www.mrdowling.com/800gdppercapita.html) and felt no urgent need to qualify them with politically correct drivel since I was not attacting anyone. Your opinion that some or all of my words were careless is just that – your opinion. Although many seem to share it, I do not. I’m quite comfortable with what I have said and how I have said it.
    You may disagree, but I find the idea of doing business with China offensive because I consider it nothing more than subsidizing the Communist regime that runs the country. This subsidization serves to degrade countries like America because our middle class jobs are going there faster than you can say, “Bill of Rights.” It also sevres to deepen the exploitation of the *people* under the thumb of the government.
    You never hear of trade imbalances between Westernized countries because they all share some basic values as it pertains to human rights, protection of workers and the environment, quality of life, etc. You only hear of problems with the third world because people are treated like dirt and are paid accordingly.
    I would like nothing more than to see the good people of China enjoy the same freedoms and rights as I enjoy in the USA. Such a thing can never happen if we continue to turn a blind eye to the repression and associated injustices by trading with the repressors as though everthing is just fine.
    By the way, apologizing for the wrongs of the third world by finding past problems with America is a typically used tool of the left wing. It is a strawman argument that can be easily debunked if you choose to pursue it.
    How many Communist nations are left in the world? China, North Korea and Cuba come to mind. ‘Nuff said.
     

    0
    #81712

    Never Mind
    Participant

    Even when it can not be scientifically derived from your words, it seems to me that you vision of “human rights” is “Americans’ rights” (and with “Americans” I mean USA citizens, excluding of course all other Americans from the rest of the American Continent, specially those from Central and SouthAmerican third-world countries, like myself).

    0
    #81713

    Withheld
    Member

    You would be incorrect. The United States is not the only Democratic country in the world. In no specific order, some of the others are Great Britain, Japan, Canada, Germany, France, Austailia, Spain and Italy. There are others, of course. China is not one of them.

    0
    #81714

    Never Mind
    Participant

    Yeah, and also Rusia, Israel, Venezuela, Argentina and Colombia are democratic countries, aren’t they?
    Do a small list of the top countries whith which you think it would be non ethical to do bussiness and the reasons, and I would provide two more lists. One with some countries with the same conditions but that are highly supported by the US stablishment, and another with some countries that would be “elegible” for support but are left behind.
    USA did and does have large asymetries when treating with countries, deppending mostly on what is better for USA now. And “supporting the human rights outside USA” is clearly one of those fields.
    Please, do not missunderstand me. I think that USA is a great country, that it is the icon of the freedom and equality, of the life style and the comfort. But all that is valid for inside USA only. If you are American, you have all those opportunities. If you are not American, well, it’s a pitty you are not and that you will never be (we won’t let you). When dealing with international commerce, with international enviromental agreements, with making the war to deffend the human rights in a foreign country, with condemning or supporting a dictatorial goverment, etc. the set of values that is used seems to be different from that used inside USA.

    0
    #81715

    Withheld
    Member

    Just as you ask me not to misunderstand you, I’ll ask the same courtesy.
    We are all human beings. No matter what race or culture we come from, our similarities far outweigh our differences since our differences are basically limited to skin color, hair color, etc… little things. My observations regarding governments are not to be taken as affronts to the people of the country. My comments are grounded in a belief that people are the same all over the world. The *system* (to bring the discussion more to the subject of 6S) in which they are free (or not) to pursue their potential as human beings is all that is different.
    I am blessed to live in an immigrant country – one that not only welcomes diversity, but relies on diversity. Indeed, I believe it is that fact – being an immigrant country – that offers the USA a unique bully pulpit from which to promote freedom world wide.
    Frankly, I am disappointed that my country does not use that bully pulpit to better promote freedom. I am also disappointed in the corporations who subsidize oppression by doing business with oppressive regimes.
    My belief that people from oppressive forms of government deserve no less than that which I enjoy has drawn fire from all but one of the contributors to this discussion. I wonder why?
     

    0
    #81717

    Never Mind
    Participant

    Ok, in those terms we deeply agree, in all but one point:
    “Cheap” countries exist. Never mind if you like it or not. For some (many) companies, not producing in such countries would left them just out of the bussiness. From the corporations investing in those countries, there are those that take the “full adventage” of the system, and there are others that keep the same policy, prectices and code of ethics that in the countries of the G8. They make money, keep the company working (pesserving the jobs even in countries like USE, jobs that would dissapear if the company would not invest in those countries buecuse the company itself would disapear), and help the people of those countries to have a better situation, to be trained, and to see that there is a different way of doing things than what thay have been used to. It’s the spark that can light the change, don’t you think?
    You said “My belief that people from oppressive forms of government deserve no less than that which I enjoy  …” How do you think tha your belief can turn reality? By wars, by blockings, etc… that the first (and mostly the only) thigs they do is to lower even more the life level of those societies and create a feeling of anger against the occidental systems that are punishing them?
    I really hope tha many responsible companies have a great (and responsible) success in those countries that leads the success of the country itself.

    0
    #81722

    Pai
    Participant

    Dear all,
    MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OF U !!
    RAJESH

    0
    #81726

    chew
    Participant

    Withheld,
    You did not only create anger among those Chinese, the way you linked 6Sigma with Communist Party, Human Rights, 1/8 of US GDP, etc…leads majority of world wide six sigma communities think that you are “not actually that worth”.
    China economic is growing much faster than you believe. The number of multinational companies are just huge. They need to build quality products and have quality management. Six Sigma fit well into their needs.

    0
    #81733

    Withheld
    Member

    Never Mind,
    You said, “How do you think tha your belief can turn reality? By wars, by blockings, etc… that the first (and mostly the only) thigs they do is to lower even more the life level of those societies and create a feeling of anger against the occidental systems that are punishing them?”
    I am enjoying our conversation, thanks. As evidenced by the fact that many in the world are still suffering – even in this day and age – the answer to your question is elusive.  Addressing the issue of anger, though, is not so elusive. Bar none, the USA is the single largest source of economic aid and charitable works outside our borders in the world. http://www.usaid.gov/
    I believe the anger you mention is the result of poor public relations, jealousy and ignorance among other things. Given the fact that very little (if anything) is expected in return for the aid, the anger is surprising. A simple, “thank you” along with an expressed willingness to help us help them would go a long way.
    I would be interested in your answer to your own question.
     

    0
    #81738

    Never Mind
    Participant

    We both know that charity is very necesary as a containment to avoid disasters of huge magnitude. But we both know that it is only that. A containment action. No improvement is reched with charity.
    Education, dignity, values, leadership, opportunities, aligned targets, etc. are in the way to the solution, I think. And I also think that, if the local goverments do not provide that, may be some big corporations can (only ethic ones, please). Show them the difference, on-site, give them vivences, and thy will choose what is better.
    But the way some top countries manage some international affairs point to the opposite direction. Freedom, free commerce. But if you dont like our system, then freedom and free commerce does not apply. We will block you, we will set restrictions for the import of your product (some times we will do that even if you actually support you system), we will forbid our people and comanies to buy from or sell to you… Justice, right of deffecne, right of a fair trial. But if you live outside our country, we can forget all that and give someone a ticket to execute your sentence to deth. Instant sentence with no deffecne, no judge, no jury. We support human rights, unless the dictaorial goverment is convenient to us. We will deffend a country that was invaded, specially if there are important economic affairs or if the invader is our enemy, etc, etc, etc.
    It is easy to the more powerfull country to show that a system they don’t like does not work. They just make it fail. They have enough power to do that. It is the autoacomplished prophesy. It’s easy for me to guess that you will die in 1 minute with a gun in my hand and you sitting in from of me. Please, I really think that the democracy (including freedom, equal opportunities, social responsability, human rights, etc.) actually IS the better system, by far. I just wish the more powerfull countries could show that with the example not only inside the borders, and that they would apply outside the borders the same values that inside. Let’s make a better world, not just a better country.
    To any company that wants to invest in a country with the problems you described I would say: Invest, create jobs, pay more than minimums, do not employ children, do not expliot you employees, teach them, train them, listen to them, encourage them to be proactive and to participate in the improvement projects, apply any tool you can to improve (including 6 sigma), achive a great quality with a great ROI, and succed. That would be a great example of which system works better.

    0
    #81740

    Withheld
    Member

    Chew,
    You won’t get any argument from me that business investment in China is booming. Indeed, that fact is central to my argument.
    Who benefits from the boom? Is it the workers or is it the businesses taking advantage of the slave-like wages and the Communist regime running the country?

    0
    #81741

    Withheld
    Member

    Never Mind,
    I would submit that all of the things you suggest to fix the “problem” are being done by the USA already. If you disagree, please cite an example.

    0
    #81828

    BB
    Participant

    Hi,
    This is one hell of a thread..Well, your post really impressed to (kind of subdued..in this agitated discussion..my piece of compliments..), but was it actually which is attracting MNC’s to china? Is it the cost, quality or delivery?
    bye
    BB

    0
    #81830

    zhangweidong
    Member

    Hi Everybody, Happy New Year! I comes from China. I don’t understand what is relationship between 6S and human right? If you are never in China, you have no right to say anything. All you have as bad idea upon China — only result from mass media controlled by your government or some targeted realted issue.  I recognize we have a lot of problems in economics healthy and bureau system, but it is not business of 6S. By the way, we are not rely on cheap goods. On the contrary, quality is hot topic in China and we are learning and want to learn advanced any quality tools. 
    For 6S, to be frankly, most of chinese company are not ready for it, the easy way is to implement quality system such as ISO 9000. Some of our clients really want  6S to make their customer satifiaction and cost saving  rather than pursuing trend only.

    0
    #81834

    Dr. Steve W.
    Participant

    for someone who has never been to China to talk about issues on China. I am from China too but I agree with some of these assessments about China.
    To say that the mass media here is controlled by the US government is ignorant. It just shows that you are totally brain-washed by the CCP. I feel sad for you, really. If the government here controls the media like the CCP does, the Clinton and Monica thing would not have come out during Clinton presidency.
    It is time for you to wake up, my fellow country man.

    0
    #81851

    Jackie
    Participant

    I think cost, quality and delivery all are the factors of attracting MNC’s to China. But the most important is the huge market in China because of its huge population. Those companies who want to occupy this market must have competitive price. The most common and efficient way to lower cost is using relatively cheap labour. Moreover, to sell companys’ products locally will not only save the cost of delivery, but also help build those companys’ reputation in China.    
    Jackie

    0
    #81853

    BB
    Participant

    Hi
    Thanks for your inputs. We are thinking of exploring china both as a customer and supplier for our company.
    BB

    0
    #81855

    Jackie
    Participant

    Good luck on your exploring to China, and you will find it is a rewarded exploration.
    Jackie

    0
    #81864

    Withheld
    Member
    #81865

    Withheld
    Member

    Cost is what attracts business to China – period. The fact of the matter is that China’s vast consumer market is not open to foreign companies – unless those companies produce the product they wish to sell in China.
    I wonder what makes Communist China any less dangerous to the Western world than the former USSR? I wonder if Cold War “victory” could have been claimed if the Western world had subsidized the USSR the way it subsidizes Communist China?

    0
    #81869

    Jackie
    Participant

    I don’t know what product the company doesn’t want to sell in China, and what product chinese people don’t need. If china’s market were not open to foreigh companies, how Chinese people can get anything in China’s market that we can buy in U.S.
    One more information about China, the unemployment rate is increasing greatly recent years in China. Do you know why? Because those  foreigh companies investing in China occupy the market, which used to be controlled by Chinese enterprises, resulting that many Chinese enterpriese are closed. (I don’t think any western media ever mentions something like this. In the world, nothing is 100 percent perfect , as long as you want to find some defects, you can).  But those Chinese people don’t complain those foreigh companies, they know every step of advance need price. Those Chinese enterprises facing challenge from foreigh companies are seeking to survive. They need more advanced techniques and management.  That is why SS will have a great market in China.   
    Besides, I know nothing about politics like Cold War. In my eyes, all politicians, no matter where they are from, so called communist nations or so called democratic nations, are all same. They have same target of obtaining profit for themselves, never really care about common people. What I know is if you want to get a friend, you have to treat people like a friend, if you want to get a enemy, just treat them like an enemy.
    Last but not least, the world is changing quickly and getting smaller because of the rapid development of science. All countries are striving to develop themselves, China, with glorious history and intelligent people, is not a exception. Just like a long distance running competition, when we feel challenge from other competitors, we can’t stop them, what we can do is to improve ourselves and compete fairly. everone has his or her own advantages, think about how to use the advanges is more efficient than try to stop other people.
     So, if you have never been China, you may want to visit there and get a brand new idea about China with your own eyes and intelligence.
    Thank you for your patience to read my lecture in advance
    Jackie 

    0
    #81870

    Jackie
    Participant

    Dear Dr.:
    We are here for discussion. Do you know what discussion means, it means everyone can display their opinions, no matter it is wrong or right. Even the opinion is “wrong” as you called, you don’t need to prove you are “smart” or “right” by abusing other people. Evidence is already enough. Trust us, we have very-normal brains to make a judgement.   
    By the way, I guess you must have obtained your whatever Dr. degree in someplace beyond China. Hopefully your brain were not washed by US or whatever.
    Jackie
     

    0
    #81874

    local
    Participant

    Yes, China is a huge market to neauly every company in this world. But there is also potintial risk exists. I think some of you have been to china, and I believe most of you just have been to Beijing, Shanghai or Shengzheng which are to top cities in China. They are differ to many other medium or small cities of China. So I want to know do you know who will be your customer, and what are their requirements? Many chinese local companies have developed and they are eagle to new and advanced management method in this world.
    But comparing with 6 Sigma, I think most of local small company in China need correct quality idea. Quality is just inspection to them, they more focus on finished parts inspection but not control the process variation. Many quality staff in china don’t know what is SPC.
    Welcome to china. But I have to remind you will  not be succeed unless you work hard.

    0
    #81876

    Jackey
    Participant

    Yes, i agree with the words from Jackie. And I want to ask a question: Do all the westen countires especially USA open all their the markets to China and any other countries? And please rember our nation is People’s Republic of China, don’t make mistake any more. Do you know China? Welcome to China, but please don’t make any conclusion before you see my country in your own eyes. In chinese words: “there are wine to the firends, and there is weapon to the enemy”.

    0
    #81877

    Withheld
    Member

    Hi Jackie,
    Although I hope I have already made it clear, my concerns are not with the people of China – they are with the system of government. In that regard, I’d like to differ with one of your comments. *Politicians* are not the same all over the world – *people* are. In my country politicians have to earn their office through free and fair elections. The only way they can keep their office is to perform to a standard that causes *people* to want to vote for them again.
    Please accept my compliments for the gracious way you have conducted yourself in this conversation.

    0
    #81878

    The MBB
    Member

    Don’t know why a simple question turned into a heat debat.  Back to answer the original question, Six Sigma in China does have a future.  So many multinationals have long been implementing Six Sigma in their local operations, such as CAT, 3M, Honeywell, Siemens, etc.  Recently, the China Association of Quality even establish a National Six Sigma Promotion and Education Committee which is headed by a vice commissioner of State Economic and Trade Commission.  The purpose of such a government agency is to help local Chinese enterprises implementing Six Sigma.  I don’t think Six Sigma, like any other management practices, has any political or national tag attached to it, so it does not matter what companies, whether state-owned or private, American or Chinese, are implementing it.  They all help advance the knowledge of it.To be sure, I am not a fan of China, especially the regime at all.  But Six Sigma is certainly benefitial to the private enterprises, so a good thing.BTW, I think it is really stupid to argue anything without much data to back your opinion.  After all, this is about Six Sigma–Show me the date first, otherwise, SHUT YOUR MOUTH!

    0
    #81879

    Fair BB
    Participant

    Hi,Withheld:
    Where “free and fair elections”is? in your country?really?
    But remember we are talking about Sixsigma?

    0
    #81883

    Withheld
    Member

    FairBB,
    Yes – really. Upon reaching the age of 18, Americans gain the right to vote.Whether or not the exercise that right and whom they vote for are completely their own choice.
    Since we’re talking about 6S, what statistical tool would you use to determine the validity of the recent unanimous election with 100% voter participation in Iraq?

    0
    #81889

    James Stout
    Participant

    Dear Jackie,
    What is the status of Six Sigma in China?  I am newly-arrived in Hong Kong, and am implementing a quality system for an established manufacturer.  My experience in other parts of Asia as well as in China is that ISO certification is not nearly as rigorous as it is in America and Europe.  Although this particular company is ISO-certified, using a local affiliate of an international registrar, in its present state the quality system would not have been certified by an American or European registrar.
    My hope is to begin developing Six Sigma in the factory as soon as we have implemented a stable quality system, hopefully within about six months.
    I am curious as to your thoughts.
    Sincerely,
    James Stout

    0
    #81906

    Fernie
    Participant

    Withheld
    So, you think we live in a true democracy ??
    A true democracy in which ONLY the top dollar fund raisers get their party’s nomination and support for office??. A true democracy in which ONLY two official political parties exist??. A true democracy in which the ONLY factor for political success is money??. A true democracy in which our governement imposes sanctions and embargoes to the poorest nations in the world??. A true democracy in which the human rights of the minorities are ignored ??. A true democracy in which our governement can initiate a war without consulting it’s own people??
    As someone pointed out “there’s no perfection in this world”, not even our “true democracy” is.  I’m in no way a fan of communism, but I do recognize our own system is far from perfection.
    Open your eyes…
    Fernie
     

    0
    #81907

    Withheld
    Member

    Fernie,
    Each of your comments prior to “there’s no perfection in this world” are demonstrably false. Never one to dismiss the possibility that I am mistaken, I will be happy to open my eyes provided you offer something within stiking distance of the truth as a starting point.

    0
    #81912

    Fernie
    Participant

    Withheld,
    I have come to the conclusion that it’s absolutely pointless to keep a discussion with someone who doesn’t want to listen. Do you want the truth??, just watch the news every day and observe how our governement conducts its democracy all over the globe. News are facts, and nothing is more real than facts.
    Best regards,
    Fernie
     

    0
    #81913

    Withheld
    Member

     Fernie,
    Boy – you told me, huh? In case you’re interested, here are facts demonstrating that you are wrong: 
    1) Fernie’s Folly: “A true democracy in which ONLY the top dollar fund raisers get their party’s nomination and support for office??.” 
    Actual fact: “Sununu’s campaign in the spring spent $198,113, less than one-quarter of Smith’s expenditures and less than one-fifth of the amount Shaheen’s campaign spent in the same three-month period.” Full story at http://www.dscc.org/newsroom/inthenews071602/ 
    2) Fernie’s Folly: “A true democracy in which ONLY two official political parties exist??.” 
    Actual Fact: Jesse Ventura of the Reform Party has been the Governor of Minnesota for the last four years. There is an elected Independent in the Senate and there are more “official” political parties than you can shake a stick at. Some of them are Libertarian, Green, Communist, Socialist, Republican and Democrat. 
    3) Fernie’s Folly: “A true democracy in which the ONLY factor for political success is money??” 
    Actual Fact: See item #1. 
    4) Fernie’s Folly: “A true democracy in which our governement imposes sanctions and embargoes to the poorest nations in the world??.” 
    Actual Fact: Sanctions are imposed for behavior – not relative wealth. In fact, the United States is the single largest source of charitable contributions in the world. Visit http://www.usaid.gov/ to do some research on the matter. 
    5) Fernie’s Folly: “A true democracy in which the human rights of the minorities are ignored ??” 
    Actual Fact: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/hr/ 
    6) Fernie’s Folly: “A true democracy in which our governement can initiate a war without consulting it’s own people??” 
    Actual Fact: Ever hear of the War Powers Act (1973)? Here is just one link: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/statecraft/warpow.html
    Perhaps it is *you* that should open your eyes, Fernie.

    0
    #81923

    Jackie
    Participant

    Hi! James,
    To be honest, I have no idea what the present status of SS is in China since I have been leaving mainland China for more than 2 years. Currently I am in North America. However, I would like to talk a little bit about developing SS in your factory.
    According to my work experience back in China ( I used to work in multinational company), I do agree with you that ISO-certified in China (but I don’t know how about in Hong Kong) is not as rigorous as it is in America. I know, from your message, you know much more about SS than I do.  In my point of view, SS is like a new-born baby in China, and has a promise future. I think if your factory implements SS before your competitors, that will help your company with occupying the China’s market. Of course, the prerequisite is you have, as you said, a stable quality system.
    Above is only for reference
    Good Luck on your new life in Hong Kong
    Jackie
          

    0
    #81924

    Dr. Steve W.
    Participant

    I checked, I realized that the CCP did much more brain-wash on me than any other government. This guy could not tell a biased media from a government-controlled media. I feel embarrassed by his post; otherwise, I would not have told him to wake up. Moreover, he was not being nice either.

    0
    #81948

    Heebeegeebee BB
    Participant

    Hmm…
    So many replies, so little on the moral aspects of supporting a totalitarian regime.
    So many opinions on the business case, so little on the human cost.
    So much on the Academic/Leftist/Elitist/philisophical, so little on the human tragedy being swept aside in the name of commerce and “enlightened”, “koom-by-yah” world-view.
    Six Sigma is not a political tool, however, rushing towards an “emerging market”  (remember the Dutch East India Comapany?) without any political consideration…Well, it’s just irresponsible.
    I am so very saddned by the moral ambiguity I have encountered on this thread…very disheartening to read.   Reminds my of the movie, “Wall Street”.   I guess Gordon Gecko is alive and well.
    -Heebee

    0
    #81951

    Withheld
    Member

    Heebee,
    Very well said. You will take fire, of course, for your insight, but your POV is supported by the facts.

    0
    #81969

    Heebeegeebee BB
    Participant

    Thanks Withheld.   I appreciate your encouragement.   Also, I appreciate your attempts to steer the convo back to a data-driven/ Human impact direction.   I visited the link you posted…fascinating.
    You are right about taking fire.   That’s ok though, i’ve got my domestically-produced flak-jacket and Kevlar helmet.  No worries!
    ;-)
    -Heebee

    0
    #81974

    Jonathan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Not sure about your talking roots from the beginning. Can I ask anybody knows what MNCs are applying 6 sigma in China while I am looking at the possibility seriously of going back there. Thanks a lot!

    0
    #81975

    Mikel
    Member

    It’s Kum By Ya by the way.

    0
    #81985

    Disgusted
    Participant

    Thank you oh wise one.  What would we EVER do without you on this forum correcting people’s spelling (I can sleep at night now that I know how to correctly spell that little campfire song) and making fun of people who don’t know everything about diesel engines and telling people to go read a book when they have a question.
     

    0
    #81990

    Stsn
    Member

    Dear Disgusted,
    Get a sense of humour.
    The writer is trying to take on world hunger (or just the politics of China and western business), I was just trying to lighten it up a bit.
    It entertained me at least.

    0
    #81994

    sqe
    Member

    I always love it when someone on here corrects another person’s spelling or grammar and then can’t spell his own name right on his post.  It makes me smile.   : )  

    0
    #81995

    Stsn
    Member

    Dear seq,
    What makes you think I can’t spell my own name right?
    Fred

    0
    #81996

    sqe
    Member

    Dear Fred,
    Thanks for the chuckle.

    0
    #82000

    HGC
    Participant

    I say we pounce on this emerging market and reap it for all its worth and then some. Leaving nothing behind. Kill first, ask questions later… all while using SixSigma methodology of course.
     

    0
    #82001

    Withheld
    Member

    Unfortunately, the emerging market is only available with a rather significant caveat. The only thing available without strings is the slave labor.
    http://www.tradealert.org/page_215.asp

    0
    #82003

    HGC
    Participant

    don’t knock slave labor until you’ve tried it. slave labor is what makes the world go round.
     
    hgc

    0
    #82005

    Mikel
    Member

    HGC,
    The RNC is looking for a few good men like you.

    0
    #82189

    Heebeegeebee BB
    Participant

    http://www.herring.com/insider/2002/11/fools-rush-china-110702.html
     
    volatility + irresponsibilty = unintended consequences galore.

    0
    #82237

    Withheld
    Member
    #82242

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    David,
    I have worked in Beijing and Shenzen. I would be willing to talk about it with you. [email protected]
     

    0
    #83517

    yilihizi
    Member

    Hello,everyone,
    I am a BB in china, of cause I am chinese,Maybe you can talk with me about the 6sigma  in china, Isixsigma.com is a very good site which provide us some chances to communicate the 6sigma tools,the cases.I like here,if someone want to talk about our country,our human right,please move to the other place.of cause if you want,you can contact me by http://mailto:[email protected] . Maybe America is good,but I love my china. I know some peoples want to know how the 6sigma is in china,we can discuss it by [email protected], Yes,we meet some barriers to stop us achive our goal during the period of 6sigma implementation, but we are confident that we can do it well. It is my last time to response this message.
    Thanks!
    Yilihizi , BB china
    2003-3-5

    0
Viewing 81 posts - 1 through 81 (of 81 total)

The forum ‘General’ is closed to new topics and replies.