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Six Sigma in the Automotive Industry

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  • #51710

    Ron
    Member

    As a disciple of Lean Six Sigma I see more entries into this area coming from the now defunct automobile indusrty.  I evolved from the aerospace world.
     Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of a successful deployment in the U.S. auto industry?

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    #179992

    Mikel
    Member

    One of the finest examples out of Motorola was their Automotive
    Group (AIEG). They had some of the best factories in all of Motorola
    and were among the first to achieve 6 sigma capability on key
    processes. This has been documented numerous places, try a book
    called The Hunters and the Hunted as a starting point.Does anyone have first hand knowledge of a successful deployment in
    the aerospace world?

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    #179994

    Nolan
    Participant

    “now defunct” – sorry, that’s not the case. Challenged – of course, but they are all still in business.
    Not sure of the point of your post Ron. Are you attempting to link the auto co. challenges to whether a SS program was successful or not. That would not be the case. The challenges they face are far larger than removal of variation from their processes.
    Just what is it your are asking?

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    #179997

    Ron
    Member

    As a hiring manager responsible for lean six sigma personnel I look to various sources for people who have received a well rounded and hands-on lean six sigma training.
    As the auto industry dumps people into the marketplace I have interviewed several who received their “training” from automotive companies and they have not met my standards. 
    I was wondering if anyone has first hand knowledge of the training that is given and who gives it in the auto industry. Also if their is a company that anyone would state has a very good training program.
     

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    #180000

    Eng
    Participant

    Some divisions of car parts manufacturer Magna have an excellent Six Sigma training program which includes lean as well.

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    #180008

    Nolan
    Participant

    OK Ron, now your query makes sense. I’ve done work with one Tier 1 auto parts supplier yet their deployment died on the vine so I can’t help you. I do believe the other poster is correct – if you are to find good deployments it will be among the suppliers, not the OEM’s themselves. Good luck.

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    #180012

    Dennis Craggs
    Participant

    There is a big difference between training and education. Training directs people to apply certain tools. However, if you have been trained to use a hammer, then everything will be treated as a nail. Alternatively, if a person has a solid education in applied statistics and a technical discipline applicable to a particular industry, then they have a good chance of being successful problem solvers and analysts.

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    #180026

    Ron
    Member

    I disagree. classical Statistics has existed for hundreds of years.. Six Sigma methodology has taken these tools and put them in a methodology that has proven to be very effective. The DMAIC methodology is the break through and being properly trainied in how and when to use the corrct tool is the difeerence.
    I assume by your responsethat you have not participated in a six sigma training experience you thought was any good or you have never gone through the training
    This is what I have been asking about.

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    #180027

    Ron
    Member

    Thanks for your response

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    #180030

    Roger Ellis
    Member

    Hi Ron.  To help you understand my perspective, you should know that I worked for General Motors in manufacturing and manufacturing engineering from 1967 until my retirement in 1998.  My terminal assignment was teaching and implementing the Toyota Production System approach at the Fairfax KS assembly plant.  I believe that I have the “first hand knowledge” you are looking for.  For the past 11 years I have been a self-employed seminar leader, trainer and consultant specializing in Project Management, Lean and Six Sigma.  I received my lean training at GM during hands-on workshops that were conducted by folks who had worked directly in the GM-Toyota joint venture in Fremeont CA (NUMMI) and had been taught directly by Toyota experts.  I made several short development visits to NUMMI, which included working on the line assembling vehicles.  At GM, as was true in the rest of the auto industry, we never claimed to be using Six Sigma.  We did have a structured problem solving process that was well documented and in fact was the DMAIC process.  We used all of the same tools and approaches – Motorola just got all of the publicity when they won the first Malcolm Baldridge Quality Award.  I first learned about Theory of Constraints by attending a one-day workshop conducted by Eli Goldratt (an unforgettable experience), followed by a two-day workshop conducted by two of his top leaders, including Donn Novotny.  I had the privelege of attending one of Dr. Deming’s four-day seminars.  I attended hands-on training sessions conducted by Shainin Consultants LLC.  I completed a master’s degree in Engineering from Purdue University late in my career (1994) and took graduate courses in quality control, SPC and DOE from Purdue professors.  I attended other training programs, too numerous to mention, on topics as diverse as QFD, systems engineering, DFMA, SPC, Taguchi methods, Gage R&R, and dozens of others.  If names and organizations like Goldratt, Deming, Shainin and Purdue don’t meet your standards for training, I can’t imagine whose would.  Since retiring from GM, I have personally been involved in training individuals from more than 1,000 companies and organizations, including some Tier One auto suppliers.  I can say without reservation that automotive OEM’s and automotive industry suppliers are more sophisticated and advanced in engineering and manufacturing than 99% of the organizations I have dealt with.  I welcome comments or further questions – my email is [email protected]   Regards,  Roger C. Ellis, PMP, Six Sigma Master Black Belt

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    #180032

    Gary Cone
    Participant

    Ron,You have made a sweeping indictment of automotive – “they don’t
    meet your standards”.I have experience with both automotive and aerospace and I believe
    automotive is about a light year ahead of aerospace. However both
    industries still suffer from a culture of saying one thing and doing
    another. Automotive falsifies PPAP data on a regular basis and
    pretends to have capability that they do not maintain. Aerospace
    doesn’t even have capability to maintain and they still play the MRB
    game of chicken on a daily basis.Please tell us about “your standards”.

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    #180035

    HR
    Participant

    I find this thread very interesting. I am a black belt at a manufacturer that I would consider fairly low tech compared to automotive and aerospace. Yet, as we’ve interviewed candidates that are coming out of the automotive industry (and there have been many recently) with lean and/or six sigma backgrounds, we have (apparently like Ron) been very disappointed with their level of knowledge. It is like they were trained on one very specific task in automotive and do not have a well-rounded, broad view. They have tended to lack creativity in applying principles of lean or six sigma. 
    I know, we could debate sample sizes and even sample set selection of what candidates were even selected for interviews, but all I can say is that the set we got, based on a pretty robust screening process, were well below expectations. My recommendation to our leadership has been to avoid Michigan and focus our recruiting elsewhere.

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    #180036

    Gary Cone
    Participant

    Wow – The U of M has got the most aggressive Lean program in the
    world – with Shook and Liker. It is the finest public Engineering
    school in the US (not an opinion – it is well documented over
    decades. Look at what they say about it in Outliers).I will agree, as I said previously, that many in automotive are
    participating in a wink wink culture still, but to conclude to avoid
    Michigan is cutting off the nose to spite the face. Go look at what
    is really available.Just as a challenge – Mike Carnell and I come out of the automotive
    industry and I am even based in Michigan. Want us to come and
    show you what your people have missed?

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    #180047

    GrayR
    Participant

    I have worked in different supplier plants to the aerospace and the automotive industry.  I have to agree that the auto companies are more agressive in using Six Sigma tools, but in general, the auto industry seems to require its suppliers to have better quality planning tools, systems and improvement methods.  I can’t say that means the auto companies themselves have better systems, but it seems that the suppliers (being part of the auto industry . . .) have a better grasp of quality and the use of statistical improvement methods. One thing that I did see in the aerospace industry is reliance on multiple inspections and redundant systems.  This seems easy enough to do when there are fewer competitive pressures, but in the auto industry these excess costs would quickly make you uncompetitive. I know that when I suggested the aerospace suppliers reduce reliance on inspections (not necessarily eliminate) by focusing on improving product & process capability, the responses that I got were along the lines of – these are safety critical items and the inspections are important.  Seemed to me to be a lack of understanding basic quality and variation principles. 
    So there may be differences in individuals that come out of the industry, but it probably is less related to individual skills than the expectations of those that work in the industry.

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    #180054

    Adam
    Participant

    The few on this discussion with experience in the Automotive Industry are the outliers of the industry.  However, several Detroit companies have already beat you too the punch and have hired the automotive six sigma professionals.  So…you could be receiving the less desirable six sigma candidates and that is putting a sour taste in your mouth.  Recall, the automotive industry has been failing for quite sometime, wouldn’t you jump ship if you knew it was sinking?

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    #180057

    Nolan
    Participant

    Wow, Roger, very impressive history and I presume, helpful to the original poster.
    I have one question however – you’ve been retired 10 years and have trained people from 1000’s of companies. Presuming the minimum of 1000 even though you imply it’s more, on average, that’s 100 companies per year or a little over 8 per month. Sorry, but that’s not possible. Could this be why the automotive industry is challenged? Even their SS people are not very good with numbers? Perhaps you need to attend at least one more prestigious eductional institution and learn how to do simple math.

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    #180060

    Nolan
    Participant

    GrayR, you say the “auto industry requires its suppliers to have better quality”. The auto industry is nothing but suppliers. Ford, and perhaps the others also I just don’t have first hand knowledge of them, does two things – designs and advertises. They don’t manufacture or even build anything – they are only an adminsitrative firm.
    Parts come from all over and go to Visteon who assembles and ships. Ford has nothing to do with it.

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    #180065

    GrayR
    Participant

    I really don’t disagree with most of your comment, but some of the auto industry does manufacture — Toyota and Honda still assemble their own cars.  And as a whole, whether you are Tier 1, 2 or 3, I think that you are still part of the ‘auto industry’, and my comment was that the ‘industry’ has expectations in terms of quality, systems, planning and improvement.
    Regards.

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    #180067

    Ziggy
    Member

    How humble..
     
    Realistically I know of no program in any of the U.S auto makers that sustains a decent six sigma or lean program.
    Referring to Shook and other that were able to sell some books.. most of that is now outdated with new and up to date material.
    The world has changes since the 80’s time for you and Mike C to get on board or retire.
     
     

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    #180070

    Nolan
    Participant

    Yep, I agree with that.

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    #180072

    I like Ziggy
    Participant

    Hey Ziggy I liked you point, yes, they should retire and let SS move on … they are more like my old fasion Grand Pa ….

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    #180074

    Gary Cone
    Participant

    Les,I don’t know where you get your information. Ford, Chrysler, and
    GM still do their own assembly. I’ve been in Rouge River in the last
    year and was in Chrysler’s plant where they do the 500, Charger,
    and Challenger two months ago.The main difference you will see at the assembly level is that some
    of the Detroit 3 don’t do their own body stampings and those that
    do don’t always do them in the same facility as the car assembly.They still make their own engines as well.The whole discussion is about some sweeping indictment of the
    auto industry. They are like most any other, some companies are
    pretenders, some are real. Same as people calling themselves BB’s
    and MBB’s.

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    #180076

    Nolan
    Participant

    Gary, please note I made the caveat that I knew only about Ford in this regard. And, I do know first hand since I served as a Program Coordinator (for lack of a better description – it was on contract; along with BB for Hire work) between Siemens VDO Automotive, Ford and Visteon relative to the Explorer instrument panel. Visteon did all assembly of the Explorer line at two locations – in Missouri and Kentucky.
    Might some of the parts for the Explorer been manufactured by a Ford owned plant and shipped to Visteon – perhaps. I can’t speak to that. I just know Ford and Visteon are definitely not related parties.

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    #180084

    Gary Cone
    Participant

    Les,I am not going to beat this one to death. I respect your
    contribution.There is a difference between automotive subassemblies and
    automotive assembly. If your point was about continued
    outsourcing and consolidation of subassemblies, you are correct.Rouge River is Ford assembly and continues to produce today. I
    know there has been talk of outsourcing the final assembly but
    with the exception of joint ventures I know of no company that
    does not do most of its own engines and all of the assembly work.This started with a sweeping indictment of the Six Sigma
    population in the auto industry and was further narrowed and
    expanded to all of Michigan. Some of the best in Lean and Six
    Sigma are from the auto industry (OEM; Tiers 1, 2, and 3) and
    Michigan.The statements being made are no different than saying everyone
    from Alabama, or everyone who is white, or everyone who went to
    Yale. Such statements are just plain ignorant.I’m done on this one.

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    #180087

    John Shook
    Participant

    Can you tell us whose material is more current and what has been
    updated?

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    #180090

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Ziggy,
    What is it you would like me to get on board with?

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    #180091

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Les,
    I was in River Rouge last October and they were doing something that looked a lot like people assembling trucks.
    I do realize that the world has changed since the 80’s but when you have a bunch of parts moving down an assembly line and people bolt stuff to it, that is what we called assembly in the 80’s and the 90’s and I am pretty sure in the 2000’s.
    Just my opinion.

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    #180097

    Nolan
    Participant

    Sorry, I realize my comments were too broad. I am familiar with the assembly of the Explorer line – the greatest majority of that line, if not all, was performed by Visteon. And to Gary’s point, perhaps Ford made the engines.

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    #180103

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Les,
    Not a problem.
    I feel much better knowing that the thing I used to recognise as an assembly line is still an assembly line. I appreciate your help with that so now I can tell Ziggy not everything has changed.
    Regards

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    #180106

    Roger Ellis
    Member

    Dear Les:  I didn’t say 1000’s of companies – I said 1,000.  It is not only possible, but it is true.  I currently do seminar work for American Management Association and Key Performance LLC, and have done this type of work for many other organizations over the past decade.  The open enrollment sessions that I facilitate usually draw between 10 and 25 individuals, most from different organizations.  I can count very well – in fact I keep a spreadsheet with the attendance at each session, as well as a copy of all of the attendees.  Perhaps you should verify the facts before you spout off in a public forum.  Regards,  Roger Ellis   

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    #180109

    Nolan
    Participant

    OK, I stand corrected on two issues – you said over a 1000 and I made the erronous assumption that when you said training that knowledge transfer was occurring. I didn’t think about the possibility that you were doing churn seminars were nothing occurs.
    So, I stand corrected and you may well have “faced” people from “over a 1000 ” companies in 10 years. But don’t try to tell us training was going on.

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    #180110

    Roger Ellis
    Member

    I won’t try and tell you anything further – you already have your narrow mind made up.  Regards,  Roger

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    #180111

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Roger Ellis,
    No assurtions about truth or not. But 1000 companies over 10 years is an average of 100 companies per year which is an average of a new company roughly every 3.6 days. I would really like to talk to your marketing guy.
    Regards

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    #180112

    Mikel
    Member

    Roger,You claim to be a Master Black Belt, but from your profile on Linkedin
    I don’t see anything to lead me to believe you have the experience.How did you become a Master Black Belt?

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    #180115

    Nolan
    Participant

    Stan, a bit of a weak argument here. Your LinkedIn profile says next to nothing either.
    PS: Yes, you’re right. I don’t have one because this is not my real name. Oh, yours isn’t either but you still went to the length of creating a false LinkedIn profile too. Wow. You might want to see someone about that.

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    #180118

    Mikel
    Member

    I even had some people write recommendations for me but I had
    those taken down. A little over the top even for me.It’s funny what people will write when asked.I’m pretty sure you’ve called the bluff on a fraud here. Good job, that
    was my job at one time. I think the guy is a self anointed MBB in the
    fine tradition of 90% of the ex-GE MBB’s.

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    #180218

    GB
    Participant

    Hey Roger,
    What is the color of the boathouse at Hereford? 

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    #180220

    Taylor
    Participant

    Wasnt he one of the Six Sigma’s on 30 Rock? Ummmm
     

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    #180222

    Severino
    Participant

    Woah!  How is DMAIC a breakthrough?  Do you smoke crack between interviews?   

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    #180227

    Hi Roger,Could you tell me more about the ” Toyota Production System approach at the Fairfax KS assembly plant?” The reason I’m interested in because in my experience, Japanese companies can be quite flexible …In our case, there was a Japanese guy who spent most of the day sleeping in our office until we (a joint venture) decided to implement single-flow. We then found out he was the companies production expert, who had trained with Tai-ichi Ohno: I guess he was saving all his energy for the right moment…Anyway, I’d be interested in your insights and whether there is any scope for the UK and USA automobile industries to implement TPS as practiced in Japan.Cheers,
    Andy

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    #180229

    Roger Ellis
    Member

    I became a Master Black Belt via Six Sigma Partnering LLC.  I gained the necessary knowledge and expertise during the decades of experience leading up to the time that I was “certified”.  In addition to the seminar work that I have been doing since I retired from GM, I have completed numerous consulting engagements that have included enterprise wide deployments of lean.  I have personally trained and certified almost 100 Green Belts and several Black Belts while working for Key Performance and Florida Atlantic University.   Regards,  Roger

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    #180230

    Roger Ellis
    Member

    GM and Toyota formed a joint venture, New United Motor Manufacturing Inc. (NUMMI) in 1982.  The joint venture began building cars at the site of a former GM assembly plant in Fremont CA in 1984.  GM created a liasion office at NUMMI and over the course of the next several years, and hundreds (probably thousands) of managers, engineers and executives and toured the facility and spent short term work assignments there over the following years.  Managerial jobs at the plant were shared by GM and Toyota employees.  Most GM folks spent two years working and learning at NUMMI, then rotated back to their home divisions.  The car division that I worked at, Midsize Car Group, formed a Competitive Manufacturing departmen that was headed by gentlemen such as Mike Brewer and Roger Smith who had worked at NUMMI and learned directly from Toyota teachers.  I joined this department and was trained to train others in the Toyota production system.  The terminal assignment that I had at the Fairfax Assembly plant included working on the launch of a new product, then implementing aspects of the Toyota Production system such as error proofing, workplace organization, standardized work and workstation layout.  Tremendous progress was made.  When people ask me what is wrong with GM, I respond by telling them they are asking the wrong question.  The question that they should be asking is, what is right about the competition (specifically Toyota).  There are no secrets to the Toyoyta Production System – it has been analyzed and publicized to death.  Getting it ingrained into the culture of an organization to the extent that has happened at Toyota is the challenge.  

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    #180231

    GB
    Participant

    Dollars to doughnuts, he doesn’t know the color of the boathouse at Hereford.

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    #180232

    Hbgb b^2,I believe there is now some recognition that Lean is not the same as TPS – at least at Ford.I’ve tried to share my information with Quality colleagues in the hope that our society won’t continue to fall for this kind of deception, spin, and exaggeration.The fact that this guy stated TPS has been published to death tells me he has not worked on a singee-flow line.No wonder Western industry is in such a sorry state.By the way, there is no boat house in Stirling Lines … although there is a clock tower. Good point though .. I like Robert De Niro.Cheers,
    Andy

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    #180234

    GB
    Participant

    He doesn’t know the inscription on the tower either…Beautiful as it is…

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    #180237

    Bill M
    Participant

    Chad, this experience level must put Roger right up there in that top 3 in the world list you are keeping. How do his numbers compare to those you have gathered for the other 100,000 or 200,000 MBBs? I mean you made that statement based on data didn’t you?

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    #180242

    Taylor
    Participant

    Excuse me Jack ass but I never rated anyone. Read the post idiot
     

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    #180244

    Frank Whittel
    Participant

    Read the story of the Ford Edge … another perfect disaster … riddled with faults despite 10,000 black belts.
    Compare this with Toyota and their TPS Deming approach.

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    #180252

    Kluttz
    Member

    Read the article.  Got about four sentences into it and found at least two spectacular displays of ignorance.  The 91% is a bogus number based on a bogus study competed by a biased consultant.  If you’re not familiar with the study in question, then I’d question your aptitude to be a process improvement professional.  Their “definition” of the Hawthorne Effect was also pretty iffy.
    Aside from that, I’m not entirely sure that you get it.  I’m a Black Belt.  But that doesn’t mean that I’m unaware of the existence of TPS or the use/application of its tools.  Every GB/BB class I’ve ever seen has taught JIT/HoQ/7 Wastes, etc.  So you’re either galactically ignorant of where SS has been over the last 20 years, or you’re just obtuse.  You seem to be caught up in the whole “1.5 sigma shift” thing without realizing that your point is almost entirely moot.  Your posts are just so inane that it makes me wonder if one person can really be that oblivious.
    Regarding Ford, WaMu etc; 
    Six Sigma didnt tell WaMu to offer nothing but subprime & interest only loans at the expense of conventional 30 yr fixed options.  Any Black Belt could have done an FMEA and dertemined that wasnt the most prudent course of action.  And Six Sigma didn’t develop Ford’s employment & salary structure. 
    Even so, the current economic climate is going to have more of a say in a particular business’s success or failure than any herd of BB’s.  In some cases, the best we’re going to do is delay the inevitable.  When you try to claim that correlation equals causation, you just sound dumber and dumber.

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    #180259

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    We could also bring up that other disaster called the Fiero. That is an interesting story.

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    #180261

    Bill M
    Participant

    Sure you did Chad. You’re the one who told me MC was in the top 5/3 in the world and did 100’s of deployments. This guy Roger must be in their also. Just asking where he ranks since you know all that stuff.

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    #180264

    Taylor
    Participant

    No Bill M, You are wrong, go back read the post, HBGB^B2 made that comment. I never rated Mike Carnell. If you wish to continue to prove your an idiot, go ahead and be my guest.

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    #180265

    GB
    Participant

    Chad is right, Bill is a dufus/muckraker
    I was the one who brought up the “top 3” issue.
    A-T-T-E-N-T-I-O-N    T-O    D-E-T-A-I-L…

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    #180266

    Kluttz
    Member

    Ummm, I may be wrong, but didn’t you go away when I started asking about your Grand-Canyonish breadth of Six Sigma knowledge & experience?  I remember something about a dairy and a tier 1 supplier something-or-the-other.
    But I digress….. now that you’re back, you can answer my original question – what was the extent of your “deployments”?

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    #180268

    Bill M
    Participant

    First Chad, sorry, guess it was HB. So, HB where does Roger rank since you have maintained the data for the top whatever it was? You do have data right? You didn’t just throw that out there without data did you?
    Second, Union, I answered your question. I never professed to being in the top 5; not even the top 5000. So you have no basis to derate me on my expereince. I simply challenged HB to justify his ridiculous statement – which he has not done.

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    #180297

    GB
    Participant

    Challenge on, Muckraker!
    I stated an opinion…Did not write it on “official paper”.
    Per 30-Rock, I think I know which Pillar of 6S you are…

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    #180604

    GB
    Participant

    Gary,
    You make a valid point…I ripped the auto industry in a diff thread, but after reading this, I realize that my observations are endemic to most industries, including my own…

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    #181274

    Avgeek
    Participant

    It’s a regulatory requirement to carry out multiple inspections during a manufacturing process on aeronautical parts and provide certification for accountability purposes.
    Remember if aviation industry as a while operated aircraft to Six Sigma there would be a major commercial airline crash approximately every four days.

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    #181281

    GrayR
    Participant

    There were no regulatory requirements on the parts that we were producing. The entire airplane supply chain does not work to the same regulatory requirements — do you know anything about how they mine aluminum?  BTW, airline crashes are not the measure of six sigma capability.  Go back one or two steps in your supply chain, back to the multiple inspections that you are talking about.  What is the sigma capability level at those inspections?

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    #181282

    Severino
    Participant

    There are two sides to aero: civil and military.  They do not carry the same requirements.
    Please point to the section in the CFR that requires “multiple inspections” during a manufacturing process.
    In point of fact, most of the engine manufacturers are actually trying to drive their suppliers to cease their dependance on inspection and focus on process control.  Honeywell calls it MPC, UTC calls it Process Certification, and Rolls-Royce has similar requirements in their SABRe program.  I’m pretty sure I could find similar efforts from the airframe manufacturers if I were of a mind to go looking.
    It is true that there are some safety critical items (turbine blades come to mind) that will likely never be relieved of the 100% inspections imposed on them, but that is due to the stochastic nature of the processes which produce them.
    Finally, your argument about airline crashes is a spurious at best.  I can operate 1,000 manufacturing facilities a day without killing anyone.  Should I then claim that I have better than SS quality too?  The idea is preposterous.  Every day there are flight delays due to mechanical issues, in-flight shutdowns, etc. etc..  The simple fact that planes aren’t falling out of the sky does not mean that the airlines are operating anywhere near a six sigma quality level… if they were we might actually get somewhere on time. 

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    #181283

    Avgeek
    Participant

    I guess you’re talking about standard parts (Nuts and bolts etc.) that
    conform to established industry or U.S. specifications. (As per FAR
    21.303). Thats cool. I was thinking more along the line of the
    manufacture of complex components such as avionic equipment
    which have different rules applied to them as far as inspections go.

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    #181285

    Avgeek
    Participant

    Excellent – a heated response! Job done!My remark about airline crashes was definitely flippant, and for that I
    apologize.I think the issue with multiple inspections is that they are not
    necessarily carried out to improve quality but they are to provide
    accountability.

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    #181307

    GrayR
    Participant

    Another way to look at the failures in the industry is to look at mechanical & electrical failures of the airplane, and nonfatal pilot errors. Some of them would cause ‘crashes’ if the inspection processes (pre-flight checks, etc.) didn’t find them.  Just because a crash didn’t occur doesn’t mean that there was not a failure in the system.  Include these failures into your equation and the industry would probably rate much lower than six sigma.
    I agree that multiple inspections don’t necessarily improve the quality.

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    #181369

    Avgeek
    Participant

    Thanks for your responses – I think we’re getting a wee bit off the
    topic of the thread though so I’ll refrain from making any more
    controversial statements.

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    #181370

    Avgeek
    Participant

    Thanks for your responses – I think we’re getting a wee bit off the
    topic of the thread though so I’ll refrain from making any more
    controversial statements.

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