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Six Sigma – The Next TQM Tragedy?

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  • #53080

    Darth_X
    Participant

    Whats everyones instinct on the six sigma future? Will it be disgarded like a christmas tree on the side of the road like TQM and the flavors of the decade?
    is my gramars ok?
    -Darth_X

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    #187845

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    I asked the same question more than a decade ago so I guess the answer is it “ain’t no instant pudding”.

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    #187857

    Zakeriya Ameer
    Member

    Yes so this why I suggest a new  (future) SS ,and it should be implemented on “Banadora” plant ,it is called “Avatar-SS”!  

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    #187862

    RM
    Member

     
    Yes it is. SS is required only after basic quality disciplines are maintained by any process. In most of the service industry they don’t follow minimum process hygiene, but try to talk about variation reduction by SS methodology. They are doing so just because the top management don’t know what is SS and the client also like vendor’s talking SS language. In reality neither client nor vendor knows what is SS and blindly use to get good name in the competition. In the run the escape goat is the BB, who gets frustrated and keep on changing organizations… Surely Six Sigma is going to be ISO.

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    #187910

    JJ
    Participant

    FYI
    The next tragedy is that ISO are in the process of launching an ISO standard for Lean Six Sigma! 

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    #187916

    gamefish42
    Participant

    Looking to the future one only has to look at the past.  When TQM was all the rage, all the consultants made loads of money providing TQM training.  When the TQM well dried up the training industry moved on to ISO to six sigma to lean and now lean six sigma.  It is hard to understand who is the driving force behind quality systems changes, the companies and firms who actually deploy the quality systems or the consultants always looking for the next band wagon to latch onto.  I belive that the U.S. Army has it right with CPI (Continuous Process Improvement where Six Sigma, Lean, Lean Six Sigma, IDEF and Process Modeling are the building blocks / tools used by the quality assurance professional. You can also through 8D Problem Solving and 5 Whys into the mix.  I think that is better to be a quality assurance general practitioner rather than being a specilaist.  I also believe that we are training to many quality assurance specialist and not enough general practitioners.
    So where will we be in the future, your guess is as good as mine. Just follow the money.

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    #187918

    anupam
    Participant

    Darth,
    It is already changed to LEAN SIX SIGMA my dear.
    Anupam

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    #187922

    John Brown
    Participant

    A new mixture of SS+TQM+ CM+Excellence Model will come up!

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    #187933

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    I am sorry but you do not know me well enough to call me “Dear”

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    #187934

    Mikel
    Member

    Oh I am pretty sure he MUST know you.

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    #187936

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    And this coming from a guy who always refers to posters as “Honey”?

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    #187940

    Kev
    Participant

    I’m a little confused.  Dear, honey – is this a professional forum or a place for guys to meet guys.  I would think after reading many of these responses over the last several weeks we would hold each of ourselves to much high values.  Expecially those who have the responsibility of hiring 100’s of black belts every month.
    Are we the future of six sigma or simply a group trying to get some much needed attention?
    I’m done – and I would suggest some of you should also should exit, unless your’re interested in “men gone wild”.
    Signing out.
     

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    #187942

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    Given your lack of any significant contributions over the last several weeks, I am not sure you will be missed. Maybe you should try to set an example and grab one of the meatier questions and show us your depth of knowledge and expertise. And please don’t use “we” since I am not sure I wish to be included in your assessments and judgments of the profession.

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    #187943

    Kev
    Participant

    Due to your quick response, do yu have a life other then staring at your monitor.

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    #187944

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    I might ask the same to you given your quick response. And the answer is no I don’t or I am sufficiently intelligent to multi task. Then again, your question is of no value to the Forum although I politely asked you to make a significant contribution and provide an answer to a tough question. Assuming we have one tomorrow, I will prompt you as to which question I would like to hear your opinions about, if that is OK with you. Or, just leave as promised.

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    #187947

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    please add TOC

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    #187948

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Dear Honey Kev:  If you pulled your head out of the infinitely variable orifice you would have noticed that the one person whom you selected to pillory is the one who just provided appropriately gaged help to a forum poster. 
    Since there are so few substantive and worthy posts, many of us choose to amuse ourselves with banal banter.  If you don’t like it, then leave.  Or (as suggested) you could provide useful assistance and help instead of just deriding others.

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    #187954

    John Brown
    Participant

    Agree
    TOC and Lean-SS should be added

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    #187955

    John Brown
    Participant

    With all the great respect for your wide knowledge and experience I wonder why you don’t try to establish a new Institute or University (I’m serious!).Having suffered from my bad experience with Villanova University (just collecting money and submitting fake certificates!) I will the first student who eill be enrolled in your “University” (believe me ).At least I will guarantee that I will receive real practical knowledge that may enlighten me .Please go ahad with this idea and I suggest the name of this University : SUSS (Stan’s Univesity for SS).
    God Bless You

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    #187956

    John Brown
    Participant

    Who are you?

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    #187962

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    be careful of what you ask for, Mr. Brown.

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    #187965

    Mikel
    Member

    I dropped out of the training market when it started to be flooded
    with people only interested in taking money. The customers didn’t
    know the difference and so I decided not to play.

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    #187969

    Taylor
    Participant

    This thread has Marlon Brando’s name all over it

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    #187971

    Shafi Khalisdar
    Member

    Darth_X,
    General principle is that “if something has a
    beginning it must have an ending.” So, question is
    really then is “when.”To answer this let’s see what Six Sigma is used for.
    There are three elements of Six Sigma: processes,
    defects, and variations. As long as there are
    processes producing defects and varying in their
    customer satisfaction scales Six Sigma will rule.
    However, customer expectations, technology,
    political situation, environmental changes,
    scientific discoveries, engineering breakthroughs
    among other factors will require more challenging
    and applicable improvement techniques for the time
    when the issues rise. For this reason we should not
    be surprised to see if Six Sigma evolves to
    something better and more effective in solving the
    problems companies face in the future.Forget not that TQM, Lean, and Six Sigma are roots
    of the same improvement tree. Just like basic math
    is not discarded when we need to apply Trigonometry
    or Algebra for problem solving any improvement
    methodology cannot be discarded after discovering
    better way of solving business problems.So, I would say Lean Six Sigma will be here for a
    long time.Shafi

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    #187974

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Well said, Shafi (or typed, rather)

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    #187989

    Rao
    Participant

    Darth_XSix Sigma is now married to Lean. S&OP ‘s joining them for a triangular polygamy in the client’s interest… A pure survival instinct.–Rao

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    #188015

    John Brown
    Participant

    Why!?

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    #188016

    John Brown
    Participant

    Is it the late “Marlon Brando”,the famous actor coming out from his grave to shine in a new role or what?!

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    #188017

    John Brown
    Participant

    Very good english !

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    #188019

    Taylor
    Participant

    John Brown, do a search and you will see why I said that. The original question has the same tone and connotation as that the Poster using the name “Marlon Brando” used.
    Can’t believe I just explained that

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    #188022

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Darth_X,
    Gramars? How about your grampars?
    Why are you asking the question as if there has to be an ultimate tool? TQM was discarded? Does this mean that the continuous Improvement process is the only process that doesn’t need Continuous Improvement?
    TQM never lost its effectiveness. It became inert only because it was taught by a bunch of people who chose to sit crosslegged on a desk sipping herbal tea and pontificating. At the end of the day you either earn your right to stay on the bus or you get thrown under the bus. SS showed up and produced business results – period. Like it or not if you were in a Bossidy or Welch organization you produced results or you were gone and we produced results. Just remember in tose days there were no certification mills and the focus was on the customer. Todays market is focused on certification with no deployment and therefor no results and it is used to drive out cost which may or may not have a customer impact. It doesn’t have anything to do with the methodology.
    Will it last? Business Improvement will last as long as we have people like Kev out there wrapping themselves up in words like professionalism when they don’t deliver anything beyond trying to make a show of themselves by giving Stan and Darth a bunch of crap.
    Just my opinion.

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    #188027

    Mikel
    Member

    Kev giving me crap? The boy’s not out of diapers yet, that’s the only
    crap coming from him.

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    #188031

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    you just might get it!

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    #188037

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Just a part of that endless chain that is trying to give you crap. Better?

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    #188044

    John Brown
    Participant

    So what?!

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    #188045

    John Brown
    Participant

    Well said
    Great Wrapping-up

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    #188048

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Chad:  I wouldn’t waste my time on this one.  Doesn’t seem to get the side-light aspects of the posts.

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    #188050

    Kev
    Participant

    Stan, you have a dedicated group of followers. Apparently you have convinced them to drink the kool-aid.  Are you for real, or living an internet life.  Don’t talk about diapers until you know the facts. The life of a consultant who hires 100’s of black belts (by your former company of 5 employees – the one that didn’t work) every week is much different from spending time on the shop floor implementing solutions and recoginzing six sigma opportunitities”.  Get real.

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    #188051

    Mikel
    Member

    I forgot, do you have a point?

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    #188053

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Shouldn’t that kinda’ make you wonder what we know that you don’t?
    Only morons dig the “stupid hole” about things they don’t understand, and then continue digging in the face of overwhelming data.
    Since you don’t show the aptitude to accept data as presented, might I suggest that you find another line of work.  There are too many of your type purporting to to know what they’re doing already.

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    #188057

    Blacklabel
    Participant

    The main issue I am seeing that is causing organizations to abandon Lean/Six Sigma is that people found out that you actually have to live with the results of the project. There are a lot of decision makers that swear they already know the problem and the solution for anything that is identified as needing a SS project or event. Something that was identified by the customer as a problem yesterday, when I submit the charter the next day for an event, that process owner always says “oh THAT, its already fixed” (when it is not fixed of course)
    So I am having huge problems with managers saying that SS interferes with their ability to “make decisions” because the result of the project makes the decision for them. So they prefer to make decisions based on what they think and feel and seem to feel threatened when told that we just need to define the problem, collect some data, analyze it and then implement the solutions that fall out of that process. They are finding it isnt the solution they expected and more importantly not the decision they WANT in some cases, so they are just avoiding the whole process.
    I dont know why the huge resistance to data driven decision making, isnt that the way you ALWAYS make decisions. Or am I finding out that they have all just been guessing what to do all this time? Are the people who get promoted not really the experts but just the ones who guess right more times than other people? Hmmm……
     
     

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    #188059

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    welcome to the real world.
    and they don’t even have to guess right more often than not.  sometimes they just have to be able to shift away from the issue before it comes back around.

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    #188061

    Blacklabel
    Participant

    Yeah I hear you. I was promised in the fantasy world of SS training that SS would prevent all this real world stuff from happening but it doesnt. My TQL/TQM experience was the team coming up with an idea based on what they wanted or how they felt something should be done. Then the decision makers just saying “nope, not gonna do that cause I feel different, give me the solution that *I* want”.
    My SS experience differs in that no decision makers rarely want to participate because they dont want to be restricted to making the solution that data or VOC tells them is the right one to make. Strange indeed.

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    #188063

    Mikel
    Member

    Unfortunately, in the “real” world, SS is no substitute for an intelligent
    Quality System and management courage. However, it is an excellent
    compliment to those things.

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    #188064

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    “complement” not “compliment”. And I second the welcome to Blacklabel. My only suggestion to him/her is that they learn to post shorter responses. While the content has been very thoughtful please realize that many of us are pressed for time and really long responses may be skipped because of time. But so far, your contribute has, in one day, exceeded that of Kev who has hung around for months.

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    #188066

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Amen, brother!
    (succinct enough for you Darth?)

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    #188067

    Mikel
    Member

    Hey – what do you expect for 3am?

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    #188071

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    Yes.

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    #188073

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Kev,
    You really need to either stop posting because you are making yourself look foolish or spend some time thinking about what you are posting.
    You want to wrap yourself up in some flag because you spend time on a shop floor. I spent plenty of time on a shop floor or two before I started consulting in 1995 on the Allied Signal deployment. I believe enough in what I know and can do that I purchased my own factory. How about you put your money where your mouth is and instead of talking about spending time on somebody elses shop floor – lets see how much you believe in what you do and buy your own factory.
    MBBinWI talked about hitting rock bottom and then stopping diging. It seems when you hit it you just change bit and look for a new level of low.
    Stan never convinced me to drink the Kool-Aid but over the years I have learned a lot from him.
    Just my opinion.

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    #188074

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Thank you.

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    #188113

    Blacklabel
    Participant

    ok shorter responses. got it :-)
     

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    #188122

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Blacklabel,
    I have been taking crap from these guys over length of posts for years. Put up what you think is appropriate and if they don’t want to read it that is their problem. Darth is headed for one of the most boring countries in the world so he will have lots of time to read besides is is old and grouchy so you just take it with a grain of salt. Besides it will give Stan something to read at 3 am.
    When Stevo gets on you about the length of the post then you need to check the length.
    Just my opinion

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    #188124

    GB
    Participant

    Darth,
    Safe journey.

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    #188128

    Ken Feldman
    Participant

    Carnell, with you it is the incomprehensible grammar that is at issue….plus the tedious length. But, as you say, I will have plenty of time to read over the next two weeks.

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    #188130

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    You are just jealous because Stan and I won the awards last year and Robert got a Honorable Mention.
    Safe travels.
    Regards

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    #188156

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    and I can’t imagine what it would be like if you TYPED with a drawl!

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    #188161

    lepinekong
    Participant

    It’s a wonder that it lasted so long as Deming has always dismissed six sigma see
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXVgsPxQR54There seems to be a bug with isixsigma so remove the isixsigma part to go directly to youtube or copy and paste directly the above url.

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    #188163

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Once again, your link is to a video of Mike Micklewright, not Dr. Deming.  Since Dr. Deming passed away in 1993, he would have had the opportunity to make some observations/comments about six sigma.
    Deming advocated that all managers need to have what he called a System of Profound Knowledge, consisting of four parts:

    Appreciation of a system: understanding the overall processes involving suppliers, producers, and customers (or recipients) of goods and services
    Knowledge of variation: the range and causes of variation in quality, and use of statistical sampling in measurements
    Theory of knowledge: the concepts explaining knowledge and the limits of what can be known
    Knowledge of psychology: concepts of human nature
    Each of these elements fit in well with a properly constructed six sigma implementation. 
    Where Deming would criticize is how many organizations and consultants have implemented the methods.

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    #188167

    lepinekong
    Participant

    I have answered in the other post
    https://www.isixsigma.com/forum/showmessage.asp?messageID=162266As I said I don’t know this Mike, I will try to join him but I have invited when I was still student in my engineering school a close friend of Deming in my country who did translate his book, and now twenty years later, this video corroborate what he actually did say about Deming’s opinion on Six Sigma and Iso Standard: that it didn’t respect the spirit of Quality as Deming and Shewhart made it.He said the six sigma use spc inadequately like if it was pure mathematics whereas Shewhart did say you cannot apply mathematics to real world as defined by classical probability. That Crosby was his colleague at ATT and because he didn’t understand statistics he did invent a slogan the Zero defects which was a disservice to Deming’s Quality Spirit because people did understand the reverse of the spirit.That Deming told him he never succeeded in implementing the spirit of Quality in America like he did in Japan because American Engineers focus too much on fake mathematics and the tools.I am software project manager today, as Agile Alliance is becoming a huge trend against Waterfall, I have immediately make the link with what I heard from Deming’s friend and now from this video.

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    #188170

    Rao
    Participant

    Today, I cast down my chrismas tree but keep using six sigma and his avatar TOPS-8D.Slender DMAIC begins R(DMAIC)SI.
    Is this albumin or simply bad fat!

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    #188176

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Dude, get some different drugs.  The ones you’re on have turned your mind to mush.

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