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Six Sigma Toyota

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  • #47277

    Jose
    Participant

    Six Sigma. Toyota is not using Six Sigma and would do it because they use TPS ( Toyota Production System ) and use lean Manufacturing Techniques. One more point is the Six Sigma accept 3.4 defect per million opportunities and Just in Time (In Toyota ) do not accept any defect. Another point is that Toyota do not using sampling …this mean they check 100% their products.
    Now the big question, What new tools could be apply in Six Sigma ?
    Could Six Sigma be equal to TPS ( Toyota Production System)…this mean accept 0% of defects ?In my research in Japan, I have not found any company that use and will use SIX SIGMA in a near future. Why do you Think ?
    Jose

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    #157480

    JM
    Participant

    Hello Jose,
    Based on your statement, that we do not know yet.  Whether or not they will use or acknowledge the fact that 6sigma is good in the production.  I have worked with Japanese company for 5 years, and yes, they do not quite acknowledge the impact of 6sigma.  According to them, it is just a “fashion” trend.  For Toyota’s case they lived and improved in the environment of Lean Manufacturing-anything and everything that will eliminate MUDA (waste).  Likewise, TQM is one of their tools, in which in some ways, some methods fall under 6sigma.
    6sigma is very good, lean manufacturing as well. Japanese discipline is also a profound method.  Combining all, you could have a very reliable and credible process.
     
    Best Regards,
    JM

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    #157489

    steved4
    Member

    Six Sigma can be good. But in my experience a combination of Lean and SPC (meaning training everyone on the 7 basic problem solving tools) is the best. So in essence, I would prefer 100 white belts over a black belt anytime. Of course key to it working is a company culture dedicated to continuous improvement. For example, in this culture if someone complains about something or has an idea; the first thing a manager would expect would be data to back up the assertion. Further, the employees would know they better have the data ready.
    I have a colleague that asked Mikel Harry one question; “If you started Six Sigma out all over again, what would you do differently?” The answer was close to what I typed in the first paragraph.
    Six Sigma as it exists today, in my opinion, is too complicated to implement for most companies (especially those in which processes are transactional – not mechanical). The money to train creates an expectation that misses the point of continuous improvment – evidenced by companies that put into job descriptions – belt will complete 3 projects saving $200,000 each – ridiculous.  It is far too susceptible to “red bead experiment” type results and the Hawthorne Effect. It can create a negative culture in which simple, good ideas must be shoved through as a Six Sigma project to get attention and support – when in reality they should just become part of a simple PDCA cycle.
    The problem is, on the forum like this, you have a bunch of people with a lot at stake personally so they like to look at the emperor and admire his cloths.
     
     
     
     

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    #157491

    Olawunmi Sarumi
    Participant

    Six Sigma can be quite expensive especially in terms of the people aspect (training etc), Japanese seem to be keen on focusing on teamworking and productive interaction amongst employees which doesnt necessarily have to follow the DMAIC methodology. However it is worth highlighhting that productive interaction can bring substantial gains in terms of people and business success.
     Though a Black belt myself, i need to clarify that not all projects qualify as Six Sigma projects and some things have to be in place before projects can be classified as Six Sigma projects. Perharps the Japanese have alot of quick wins and their working culture also supports continous improvement.
    I hope my contribution is useful

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    #157498

    accrington
    Participant

    I agree with you Steve. Using the DMAIC process on every problem, and checking which of the tools you have used, according to the Six Sigma prescription, is like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
    Unfortunately, most Six Sigma training is carried out to make as much money as possible in the shortest possible time, with the maximum number of bums on seats. The result is a bunch of toolheads (Black Belts), with little understanding or practical experience of what process improvement is about, or even what a process actually (given the selection criteria suggested by many of the Six Sigma books, it’s unlikely any of them been anywhere near the factory floor, let alone have any experience of it)
    That is not to say that the more advanced tools do not have their place, but the areas where they come into there own (in my experience) are more in the R & D/ New Product & Process Development/ Consumer Testing, etc. areas, or for achieving breakthrough performance in existing processes.
    Unfortunately, many of the newly – minted 4 weeks trained black belts that I have met do not appear to have the skills to use the tools they have learned in a flexible manner, i.e. according to the specific problem in hand. They are more one – trick DMAIC ponies ( the control chart is frequently the last tool they would think of using, and frequently used wrongly)
    We should also remember that Six Sigma has its origins in Semiconductor Wafer Fabrication ( I worked in the industry myself for 8 years), where the nature of the process lends itself more to the use of enumerative statistical methods. The same methods are not necessarily applicable to, say, Paper manufacture, or a steel rolling mill, or car assembly (how much success have Ford had with Six Sigma compared with what they were doing in the late eighties?)
    I expect I’ll get a kicking from this forum over the next week. Have a nice weekend

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    #157499

    AJ
    Participant

    I am amazed how many emotional so called experts in process improvements there are out there who bash Six Sigma or another methodology like it’s the anti-christ’s mantra.  Grow up! 
    IF you are a true professional, you would know that there is no one magic bullet to fix all defects in any process.  Six Sigma, TQM, Lean, TPS… and so on are all packaged methodologies that help PROFESSIONALS improve their processes.  I agree that Six Sigma is difficult to impelement and may not suit all organizations.  But that also goes for every other flavor of process improvement technique as well…. even the ever so glorified Toyota Production System has it’s flaws. Six Sigma may not even be the best methodology for your company but it is a methodology and if your company can pull it off and become successful in it, most likely, your company will be successful in business.   
    Folks this isn’t a popularity contest.  Your jobs will not be in danger if you know what you are doing.  You do not need to feel the need to start negative propaganda against another methodology to secure your seat in the office. 
    Just be mature about your posts.  There is no need to degrade a methodology because you don’t fully understand it yourself or you have failed to become successful in it.  In the end, all that will happen is that you will sound foolish. 

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    #157504

    Fake Gary Alert
    Participant

    Excellent  point  of  view

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    #157522

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Jose,
    You need to spend some more time reading about this. Toyota does TPS (of course) and Lean? Lean is a US name given to TPS. It has been a pretty effective marketing thing for some. Check out the book “The Machine That Changed the World.”
    Does Toyota do Six Sigma – by that name no. In the Continuous Improvement step of TPS they have Kaizen and Kaikaku (a breakthrough strategy) which is what Six Sigma is. TPS understands the need for two separate strategies and they have both. If you want to be superficial about this and go for the emotionally charged statement that Toyota doesn”t do Six Sigma have a ball but understand it makes you knowledge appear shallow.
    If you cannot find companies in Japan that have used or are using Six Sigma then you are not looking very hard. I have consulted with four and there have been several different deployments by other consultants.
    As far as sampling it isn’t sold as a part of the Six Sigma curiculum. It is and has always been a part of statistics. The 100% inspection is not inspection – it is sorting. That is 100% Nonvalue add.
    Good luck

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    #157524

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Olawunmi Sarumi,
    Classifying Six Sigma as expensive is pretty short sighted. The cost of training is negligible to most companies compared to other investments they make into equipment and brick and mortar. They justify that by looking at ROI. The training aspect of SS can be evaluated the same way. Our last deployment was breakeven at 6 moths and a 10:1 payback in the first year – that is not expensive.
    If you are worried about cost you might want to evaluate what it costs in terms of wasted time by classifying projects as SS, Lean, etc. What value does that add? You train your people to solve problems and give them a complete set of tools. You select projects that need to be addressed and align with the organization. Then you give a project to a person who has been trained and get out of the way and let them fix it. If they choose Lean or SS or whatever it shouldn”t make any difference as long as they aren’t closing their eyes and using the force.
    Your contribution is just another brick in the wall that gets built between a company and efficient results. Identify one tangible benefit from classification of projects. One time where it has put a single dollar on the bottom line.

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    #157525

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Jose,
    There have been plenty of strings on this theme. A simple search would have let you know this is a long way from original.

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    #157526

    Olawunmi Sarumi
    Participant

    Hello Mike,
    Thanks for your response. While i appreciate your point of view, i am of the opinion that you have taken it abit far. One of my comments was that Six Sigma can be quite expensive in terms of training, please note i wasnt emphatic about the cost. It was an assertive statement, and you referring to it like an emphatic statement is abit unfair. Coming from an SME where cash can be tight, trust me making a case for training can be difficult. I can only hope that you see my point of view, and help use this forum for constructive things, rather than critisize each other. We all come from different industries and the experience can vary substantially.
    Regards

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    #157528

    Craig
    Participant

    Mike,
    I think I am going to document and roll out a generic methodology called “Improvement”. This way, no one can deny that they use it or that they would want to use it! This would bring harmony to the world!
    Just time for a little humor on a Friday. BTW, I enjoyed your post.
    HACL

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    #157530

    Dr Ted
    Participant

    Why limit yourself to only one tool when there are so many effective tools available? Although Toyota uses their own method, it was not developed in a vacuum. I agree that no defect is acceptable, but getting there is the important part – the process – and it will not happen overnight because Quality is cultural. What works best for Toyota may not be the best for Company B. But there are tools, concepts, etc. that will. The fundamental rules of business always apply 100% of the time, so remember the KISS principle. The way to warm the cockles at the “C” level are to show: cost reduction, increase in market share (Red Ocean/Blue Ocean) and profitability – and don’t forget to scare them with what their competition is doing (Fear sells). BTW, from experience, most enterprises spend too little on training. The best approach is to be a “sponge”, and to soak up as much as you can from different sources. Then share the knowledge!DR. Ted, Certified MBB

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    #157536

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    hacl,
    Man, am I glad the weekend is here. I have a bottle of Squirt and a bottle of rum and I am headed for the back dock. So a person has a less than stellar week and then you run into one more person “Toyota doesn’t do Six Sigma.” You want to say “Who cares what anyone else does. Do what works for you.” Even the mensa candidates that are still wrapped around the axel about the 1.5 Sigma shift have more brain waves going that the “Toyota doesn’t do it” guys. Let’s see these must be the yuppies reading their back issues of Fast Company while they sip their herbal tea. Where has the substance gone? Damn that was cathartic.
    Good idea on the improvement thing. Lets not certify anyone so that people don’t get distracted with certification and just make their companies work better.
    I have noticed some of your posts getting a little edgier. Very nice.
    Have a great weekend
    Regards

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    #157539

    steved4
    Member

    I agree completely.

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    #157542

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    olawunmi sarumi,
    Cash is always tight everywhere. Take a look at the cost of the Moresteam course and tell me that the cost of the training versus the value is beyond your business reach. If that much money is an issue for your business then you have more issues that six sigma will fix.
    I missed the answer to that question on classifying projects. It created value where?

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    #157545

    steved4
    Member

     “If that much money is an issue for your business then you have more issues that six sigma will fix.”
    Money is tight when an organization doesn’t really understand process improvement.
     

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    #157546

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Or if the process improvement people are spending their time trying to classify projects.

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    #157549

    Jose
    Participant

    Thanks so much to everybody. I am doing my best in Six Sigma and in my Opion….every company should star implementing Six Sigma Methodology.
    Thanks so much
    Jose

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    #157553

    Fake Gary Alert
    Participant

    Why  do  you  insist on that?

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    #157554

    Fake Gary Alert
    Participant

    There is  no  harmony  or  chemistry any where,you can  only  recognize  conflicts and  troubles  every where

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    #157557

    Chris Seider
    Participant

    People need to understand not everything has high gross profit margins like pharmaceuticals, semiconductors, financial services, or specialty chemicals.
    Many industries like commodities, grocery retail, or even plastics, just look at why GE Plastics has been agreed to be sold, have cyclical or globally created market reasons for low profit.
    Do NOT take this post as in indication of a lack of need for continual improvement.  I think many people are unaware of what issues are on the other side of the fence and we should always reserve judgment about profitability or cash flow until we begin to understand with data.

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    #157558

    Praveen Gupta
    Participant

    Six Sigma was designed to solve chronic problems that needed significant resources and a lot of help to produce high yields. Based on its success, we used Six Sigma to more opportunities, then eventually for trivial projects. And lost purpose and value of Six Sigma.
    Six Sigma lost its handle, and was used as a hammer without its handle. The Six Sigma handle is to improve a lot quickly using process knowledge and data, and statistical tools when needed. Now Six Sigma is more about statistics rather than building process knowledge.
    Of course we like to see a new President every four years. It is boring to have a same methodology crowned for 20 years, appears.
    We should welcome change. But we do not throw away our hammer. If we do not learn how to write, does not matter whether we use pencil, ink pen, ball point pen, or computer. In case of Six Sigma we need to learn to strive for perfection. That’s what Toyota aims for. Six Sigma was designed for striving for perfection. (Let’s not question Sigma shift or 3.4 DPMO once we get there!)
    If we design our processes and products with performance targets to produce high yields to begin with, we may not have to use any of the branded methodologies.
    Praveen

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    #157559

    Praveen Gupta
    Participant

    Let’s question 1.5 Sigma shift or 3.4 DPMO once we get there. Trying to put too many thoughts in one message.

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