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Six Sigma vs. Deming Methods

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  • #27017

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Does anyone have a nice short but complete comparision of the differences between Demings methods and Six Sigma. I need to explain it to a VP but I am not up to speed on Deming’s process enough to explain the differences.
    Thanks.

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    #65708

    Kevin Mader
    Participant

    The differences are significant. Here are a few for your consideration:

    Deming’s SoPK Six Sigma
    ————- ———-

    Intrinsic Extrinsic (Reward System, MBO)
    Views System as whole Views relationships
    Optimization of whole Maximization of relationships
    Profound Knowledge No Profound Knowledge
    Long Term Thinking Short Term Thinking
    Focus on the Process Focus on Results (goal setting)

    I don’t know if this helps much. To understand more, you would need to do some reading. The proof is in your own understanding.

    Regards,

    Kevin

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    #71067

    Ropp
    Participant

    As for me I am a huge fan of both Deming and 6Sigma.  However, I view Deming in a philosophical light, and I see 6S as a tool to improve my business.  The thing for me is the idea of truly empowering your employees to make decisions themselves using GE’s breakout sessions, and providing these employees up and down the ladder the tools to improve their company.  Through out the old measurement systems and manage through knowledge of the company and thru confidence in your people.  Use 6S as a methology for making decisions.  It is my opinion that 6S is a process, not a goal.  Anyone who expects you to reach 6S will also expect you to never make a mistake. 
    There are also many similarities between the heart of 6S and Deming; Take for instance the idea that competeing companies can work together to establish customer expectations.  This is Demings comment from “The New Economics”.  6S also guides us to work with common companies and seek out best practices.  Deming stated that managers who do not know a business will manage by charts, because atleast they can read a chart.  6S will ensure those “charts” are based on customer focused data.  The biggest thing for me, is the Deming point about businesses not understanding their customer’s needs and 6 Sigma demands that we focus on the customer needs first (CTQ). If you recall Deming talks about a high school orchestra playing a piece and a professional orchestra playing the sdame piece.  Both give the customer the same product to the same specifications, but what does the customer really want. 
    In my readings, Deming states some feelings that 6S will or may not work.  I think he saw the faults America would build into the system.  The typical “line in the Sand” attitudes, the 6S or else mentality.  Look at Deming as a philosopher and 6S as a tool/method not a goal and it may be more clear.

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    #75740

    Gaurav Gautama
    Participant

    Hi! I am to do my first six sigma project on idle time reduction. I have done Fault Tree Analysis and created logic tree dia.s for different prodcution lines where i am to reduce the idle time. for the major idle time contributing factors like Shortage, Breakdown and Defect. No idea what to do next. Pls help. This is idle time reduction prjt for an entire manufacturing unit with 3 different product lines.
    thanx.
    gaurav

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    #75745

    Marc Richardson
    Participant

    I liked Kevin’s analysis but next time, please, use some punctuation. Deming is hard to sum up. He was not in the habit of providing worked-out, cookbook solutions. He laid out the principles and expected people to think for themselves and develop their own applications. I would highly recommend that you read “Out of the Crisis” and “The New Economics” at a minimum. Deming advanced the System of Profound Knowledge (SoPK) which he said consisted of four main subheadings:
    Knowledge of Variation, that is, a knowledge of common cause and special variation.
    Knowledge of Systems, that is, understanding that all the parts of a business are related in such a way that if you focus on optimizing one part, other parts may suffer.
    Knowledge of Psycology, that is, what motivates people.
    Theory of Knowledge, that is, how we learn things.
    Deming was against numerical quotas. He was against performance evaluations and forced rankings. He was for driving fear out of the organization and managing by undestanding how variation works.
    Here is a link: http://deming.ces.clemson.edu/pub/den/. It is a good place to start.
    Marc Richardson
    Sr. Quality Assurance Engineer

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    #75746

    Ropp
    Participant

    Marc is very right as is Kevin.  For me it still goes to the philosophy side of the teachings more than anything.  SoPK is so key to understanding Deming, that unless you read and understand what he is saying, then there may always be confusion.  “The New Economics” was the book which really opened my eyes.  It tied together everything I thought was wrong in business, and everything I felt was right.

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    #75759

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    I think there has been plenty of good advice in this string. The only thing I would like to add is that if this VP is heading off to do some improvements then he really should take a look at Mary Waltons book “The Deming Management Method” and read the section on the 7 Deadly Diseases and Obstacles.
    Good Luck

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    #75762

    Dave G
    Participant

    Excellent reference.  Mary Walton’s book is excellent.  I have all my supervisors read it.  I know I’ve said more than enough here.  Thanks for the open discussion.

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    #75768

    Savage
    Participant

    You might want to search on some past articles that do a great job with Deming and Six Sigma. One source is if you go to http://www.pqsystems.com/ and then search on Deming, you will see some articles.

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    #75785

    austin
    Participant

    what is the seven deadly disease and barriers as you mentioned in the artical?
     
    thanks

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    #75789

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Austin,
    The 7 deadly diseases are things that Dr. Deming felt US management suffered from and were potentially fatal unless corrected (pretty much a quote from page 89). The obstacles were considered not quite so serious.
    The interesting part is that we get so much traffic in this discussion group with people who claim to be so firmly entrenched in the TQM/Deming methodology, and they are the worst offenders of some of the things on the list, inparticular Searching for examples, our problems are different, and anyone that comes to help us must understand all about our business.
    Take a quick read of Chapter 19 and then read the questions in the discussion group for the next week and see how frequently the diseases and obstacles have filtered down below the management level and are permeating the ranks of people who actually do the work.
    Good luck.

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    #75790

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Dave,
    Thanks. She did a great job of making a lot of his stuff easy to understand.
    Thanks again.

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    #75814

    Schuette
    Participant

    If you are the Mike Carnell I know you always bashed and made fun of Deming. what makes you an authority on him now?

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    #76039

    john beaudoin
    Participant

    Let me see what I can do.  I just completed an MBA course in TQM using the textbook the Demming Dimension.  I have also been a Greenbelt for a couple of years now.  Here is what I see:
    Demming: Has the 14 Points.  I won’t retype them here as anyone should be able to find them in the library or the web.  In general, Demming stressed the business philosophy should be focused on Quality, not Productivity and that Productivity would come by improving Quality as there would be less rework and no need for mass inspection.  Demming also emphasized that 95% of quality comes from management and not the individuals doing the work. (Management designs the process, is responsible for training, and also hiring of individuals and thus the output of the process is dependant on them).  Demming stressed to eliminate work standards, quotas, and other numerical goals for the workforce to drive out fear, to note that there is normal variation in the processes and it is not fair to reward individuals who happened to see good numbers due to luck of the draw in the randomness.  The idea is to eliminate internal competition between individuals and build a cooperative workforce.  Note Demming pushed for a philosophy of continuous improvement, a management environment that did not intimidate employees and actuall helped remove barriers that prevented them from doing a better job.  Demming’s background was in statistics, and thus he was a firm beliver in using statistical tools to help improve the business.  He stressed the use of control charts to determine if processes were in control and ups and downs were part of random variation.  He advocated using these charts to look at special causes, which could lead to break-through process improvements.  He also advocated DOE modeling.
    6-Sigma:  Focuses on Statistical tools for process improvement.  Management should use these tools or results from others using the tools in making business decisions.  6-Sigma doesn’t strongly advocate doing away with year-end evaluations, productivity, goals, etc. However, it is believed by the followers of TQM that by asking the 5 Whys and doing the detailed analysis that someone perfoming 6-Sigma analysis could show that there is no benefit to year-end reviews and other internally competitive reward and recognition programs.  As a result of 6-Sigma not including some of Demming’s “radical” philosophies in its program, I feel it is a much more successful program than TQM was to companies that tried it in the 80’s and abondoned it because they could not correctly implement it.  (Ford is one such example).
    Juran came out with his 10 steps, which simplified Deming’s 14 points.  Ishikawa also had some points which management should follow along the same lines.  KBM (Knowledge Based Management) and the Baldrige Criteria are also out there for quality philosophies.  The point is that if your company is ready to buy into a quality philosophy, in addition to changing how you manage your business, 6-Sigma is a tool that you can use to identify quality problems, causes, and to implement solutions for continuous improvement.

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    #76041

    RR Kunes
    Member

    Six sigma is a methodology with tools to aid in the implementation and application.
    Demming not unlike Malcom Balrdige and CMM had platitudes to strive for.
    Six Sigma = methodology + Tools
    Demming = Platitudes to strive for.

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    #86082

    John Marsh
    Participant

    Dr Edwards Deming’s (I wish people would spell his name right) 10th Point was to eliminate jargon, slogans & hype. Six Sigma is riddled with terminology which creates barriers for normal human beings. The System of Profound Knowledge and the 14 Points were about working it out for ourselves in our different organizations. I personally heard Dr Deming ridicule Six Sigma very late in his life. I don’t believe the two approaches are compatible. Does Jack Walsh emulate Deming’s principles or any of America’s top leaders as they scramble for their performance related pay linked to dividend value and continue to sacrifice the future for the short-term benefit?

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    #116597

    R.Soundara Rajan
    Participant

    There are some Universal concepts that hold true ad infinitum.
    One such is that Quality (defect free work) comes first and productivity (Speed / Volumes / unit time whatever) comes next.
    Deming got that right.
    Soundar.

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    #116602

    john beaudoin
    Participant

    If you really want to be enlighted on improving a business organization and ultimately to have a maximally productive and maximally efficient organization in a changing environment, check out a book written by Kenneth MacKenzie on the Organizational Hologram.  He has nailed it.

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    #120902

    Jim Braun
    Participant

    This has been a very interesting thread, so I have to add my two-cents…
    I’ve been a passionate follower of a great many quality philosophies and methodologies for the last 17 years, and though I too have my MBA with a specialty in Quality Management, I continue to find out how little I really know as I try to apply the overall philosophy and methods in every-day business practices.
    I believe each of the quality philosophies, methodologies, standards, awards, tools, etc… were designed to strengthen a weakness of that time; within either our national management culture (whether US, Japan, etc..) or a weakness within an industry.  They each have their strengths and weaknesses, and when viewed as a “set,” you can see potential guidelines for a variety of settings.
    As one example, I’ve been working with customer service centers for the last 7 years and have found a combination of methodologies work best in that industry.  We use the ISO9000 standards for documenting our processes, COPC 2000 (call center industry standard based on the MBNQA) for their best practices and benchmark data for call centers, and Six Sigma for our process improvement methodology.
    In my humble opinion, I believe none of them are a “best practice” as a sole methodology, but combined they serve as a reference library for best practices.  I guess if I have to use an analogy, I would look at it like a football team’s strategy for winning a game.  You’re going to find yourself in a variety of situations on the field and the only limits to your potential successes are how well you practice and work as a team, how knowledgeable and motivational your coach is, and of course, how good your game plan is. 
     
    – Jim Braun
     

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    #135230

    A ODonnell
    Participant

    Jim,
    Thanks for the summarization. You are right on. We need not compare apples to oranges. Six Sigma is the tool set ( actions ) to complete the philosophies that came before it. I do not see much debate once this is realized.
    Al ODonnell

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    #138059

    julio_slsc
    Participant

    Six Sigma or 6 sigma does not work. The tools existed prior to 6 sigma. Six Sigma throws in questionable financial data, data accountants never intended for operational or marketing decisions.
    Compare Toyota to Ford. Ford uses Six Sigma to drive them to bankruptcy.
    Toyota uses Deming to drive to domination of the world auto market.
    It is that simple.
    Six Sigma is a disaster.
    [email protected]

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    #138062

    Haugen
    Participant

    Ford is not using Six Sigma to drive them to bankruptcy.  Ford is using poor management execution to drive them to bankruptcy.  Six Sigma is just along for the ride.
    Give credit where credit is due.

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    #138063

    Alfred ODonnell
    Participant

    You are comparing apples and oranges. Actually part of what Deming focused on was variation and how to react to it. Six Sigma measures that variation in order to understand it. The best system in the world can be applied incorrectly and fail. The bank failures of the 1980s was not caused by the tellers………..or Six Sigma or Deming………I am afraid the management of those banks will have to take the responsibility. 

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    #138064

    Ksherrell
    Participant

    Im sure GE and a number of other very sucessful companies would disagree.

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    #138066

    Andejrad Ich
    Participant

    Let’s hope they’re all in Toyotas on this drive to bankruptcy or they’ll never make it.
    Andejrad Ich

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    #138068

    Darth
    Participant

    Sorry to break it to you Julio but Ford was the first US company to hire Deming back in the 80’s.  Guess they failed to listen to his wisdom.  Arrogance has a tendency to do that to business leaders.

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    #138071

    Charles H.
    Participant

    Deming went to Nashua Corp in 1979 and they were featured in the NBC Whitepaper: “If Japan Can, Why Can’t We . . .?”  This is when many “got religion.”  The people from Ford went to Nashua to “learn.,” as well as hiring Dr. Deming to consult at the senior management ranks.  Some did learn – like Don Peterson. Unfortunatey, guys like Red Poling, from the old North American Automotive Division “blood and guts” type of management theory, later got the reigns of the company and they got back to the good old slash and burn methods with which they were more comfortable.  Just force the Q1 “system” on all of the suppliers, treat them like egg-sucking pigs and we’re “doing quality.”  Nothing could be easier.!

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    #138073

    Brent
    Participant

    Concerning Ford forcing their Q1 program, some VP of Procurement declared that “all suppliers will be Q1 Certified by X date”…guess what-to achieve that, they had to drop the standards!
    So when we qualified suppliers, we always asked WHEN they received their Q1 flag.  It made a huge difference!!

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    #138074

    Darth
    Participant

    You are right Charles.  Forgot about Nashua.  Must have been because they fired the CEO and just about went belly up.  In fact I placed a call to Deming after the firing and essentially asked, “If what you are teaching is so good then why did they fire him and why are they in so much trouble?”  He reply was something like, “My philosophy doesn’t prevent stupid decision making.”  Some idiot decided that since they were in the paper business why not import copiers and try to compete in that market.  Almost put then under.

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    #138076

    Charles H.
    Participant

    Yeah, Darth – it was defintely iteresting times back in the 80s and early 90s, as the Chinese would say.  I especially liked how Bill Conway, after “leaving” Nashua, then went out and developed his “13 steps” and started selling his approach to the Deming philosophy and methods.  We got into Conway Quality at GenDyn Convair around 1989 / 1990 and it never took hold.  The 13 series tape lessons became a running joke:  we called it the “Bill and Ted Excellent Adventure Series,” as the guy that co-hosted with Bill Conway was some guy named Ted something-or-other.  Most memorable Bill Conway quote (in his New England twng): “You knooooow, Teeeeed, they don’t have the wherewithaaaaaaal . . .”  We dumped it pretty quickly and got back to the basics.

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    #138077

    Charles H.
    Participant

    It was maybe worse on the inside.  When the product engineering guys from Diversified Products would go over to the assembly plants to do process audits, it really got crazy.  At Dearborn Assembly (Rouge Plant), we had to go through the plant manager’s office and write our final report and get it cleared through him before he would “let” us leave the plant.  We asked him if he was holding us against our will – he let us go and the inital report stood, without all of his creative editing and data “decoration.”  We were never let out on the assembly floor again, in his plant.  We could only do end of line audits out in the boonies of the shipping and holding area.
    But hey – they did coin a really cool slogan, which I am sure that Deming supported whole-heartedly: “Quality is Job 1!”
     

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    #138091

    Darth
    Participant

    Charles, you know Deming hated signs and slogans and the elimination of them was one of his key 14 Points.

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    #138098

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Charles,
    My view as a supplier (in the past) is Quality has never been job 1. I was in a situation where we manufactured a sensing element in the ignition module – a variable capacitor. Between the time I arrived and when the spec was written something had changed in the capacitance requirements and the “good” sensors were not in spec. I stopped shippments and was given a 10 year deviation to the capacitance requirement because the Ford management had decided to drive the changes after Job 1 would impact the SQE’s bonus so that they could drive changers to before launch. We got a deviation rather than a spec change.
    Exactly the same situation when I was at a plant that produced hardware with a non-asbestos friction material. It is about the game not about quality.
    Anyone who was anywhere near that injection molded bed on the Blackwood knows what a complete fiasco that was. Spec? Don’t worry about the spec let me tell you what I will accept.
    We won’t even discuss the trips to Windsor or Jon Jon’s.
    Regardless of what type of supplier I worked for I have had to watch a endless progression of SQE’s walk through my plant dishing out BS and demanding things such as control charts be put in place on things that did not mean anything. In one factory we had 3 people who had a full time job maintaining, training and creating the 80 some charts that this parade of moroons demanded and there were probably a total of 10-15 across 3 production lines that were relevant. There is some COPQ.
    When you have lunch with one of these people and they make the comment “I have never understood attribute control charts. They can’t follow the normal distribution.” then you understand the quality of the guy who is supposedly watching your quality.
    I do not know what the system is today but when we re-certified a plant in 1990 the determining body on the Q1 was Purchasing not Quality or Engineering. Why would a system be set up that way? (you don’t need to be a MENSA candidate to figure that out).
    In the time I have worked at places where we were suppliers to Ford it has been frustrating to watch the mix of good and bad individuals and the complete farce they have made out of some decent efforts to produce a decent product. It wouldn’t have mattered who they brought in as a consultant – the system is so poorly driven that there was no chance any consultant could have moved the company.
    Just my opinion.
     

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    #138102

    julio_slsc
    Participant

    I give credit to Deming and Toyota for their obvious success.
    Ford had success wtih Deming in the late eighties. Then went to Six Sigma under Jacques Nasser.
    Should we not arrive at a conclusion?

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    #138105

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Julio_slsc
    What a completely inane sense of logic.

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    #138107

    clb1
    Participant

        Every year, from late May to early October there is a linear increase in the daily sales of ice cream cones in the U.S.  Every year, from late May to early October there is a linear increase in the incidence of swimming pool drownings in the U.S.
    Should we not arrive at a conclusion concerning the effect of ice cream cone sales on the frequency of drownings and prohibit their sales in 2006?
      There is confounding of effect in the above and there is confounding of effect in the Deming/Six Sigma – Toyota/Ford analysis. Both are equally devoid of meaningful content.

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    #138109

    julio_slsc
    Participant

    I know that Ford hired Deming in the late eighties. They did better that the 70’s. They introduced the Taurus that outsold, with some manipulation the Acord and Camary. They did not embrace Deming completely.
    I like breaking to you the following:
    In the nineties with Jacquess Nasser, Ford embraced your 6 sigma. Six Sigma is guiding Ford to bankruptcy.
    May I ask, how do you explain Toyota’s success?

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    #138111

    julio_slsc
    Participant

    I don’t invest in Six Sigma companies. Insane logic does pay off.

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    #138113

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    julio_slsc,
    I hate to pop your self agrandized bubble but you are not breaking anything to anyone.
    You are the one that believes that the differences in TPS and SS are what drove Ford to the brink of bankruptcy. Prove it with something other than coincidence. Let me break something to you correlation and cause and effect can be two different things.
    Before you crawl any further out on the limb you need to take a break and understand TPS.
     

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    #138115

    Charles H.
    Participant

    I know, Darth . . . I just couldn’t help myself.  The one I always liked was at Convair: “Nothing Short of Right is Right!”  Now that one really insired us all to “do quality.”  It was a carryover from Rueben H. Fleet and WWII . . .  Sixty years of tradition, unhindered by change!  Don’t ya just love it?

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    #138118

    julio_slsc
    Participant

    I love to repeat myself when I don’t get an answer.
     
    How do you explain Toyota’s success?
    They don’t dither with Six Sigma or 6 sigma.
    They must do something right.
    Here is another for you. Why do many Six Sigma consultants claim that Honda and Toyota use Six Sigma?
    Please help me out. You know so much. You can answer these two simple questions from a simple man like me.
     
    julio

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    #138119

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Charles,
    In the mid 80’s I had a factory where we made bomb fuses (the one you will find discussed in Mario Perez Wilson’s book “Six Sigma”). Being the good quality people that we were – I purchased some of those floor mats that had the slogans on them and placed it by the doors coming into the factory. Everyone has one of those people who is a pain to talk to and I had one of those. He stopped in front of the mat that said “Do it right the first time” and asked me to come over. When I did he pointed at the mat and asked “What the f__k do you think I try to do all day?”
    The mats were gone that morning.
    Slogans have little or no effect on the general public – they are just part of the background noise. For those that do notice them they can be a demotivator because they can be insulting.
    Just my opinion.

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    #138120

    Charles H.
    Participant

    We are in violent agreement.  The worse thing that ever happened to two of the Ford suppliers I’ve worked with was when they got on the Ford radar screen and they started to be brought under Q1.  And they thought becoming Tier 1 would be the path to gold!  It created nothing but havoc and chaos, reduced the quality levels in preference for schedule – you know, the typical laundry list of what not to do.  Then Ford wondered why the quality was suffering and they started their draconian methods to beat the suppliers into compliance.  And, oh by the way, we might get around to paying you guys the $7MM we’ve owed you for 2 years on those engineering changes, but don’t bet on it.  That company got out of the automotive supplier business.  The other one plods along as best they can.  They were bought out by Fiat . . .
    We tried to have our BBs create a handshake with Ford’s BBs to work the common issues and projects, back during the days of Jaques Nasser (sp).  Some of the BBs from Ford were darn good and really wanted to make a difference, but they eventually got killed off and the political cast took over.  It became nothing more than another means for Ford to force their will upon the suppliers, and schedule always ruled at the expense of quality.
    Like you, I don’t know how Ford is doing under the “new” management . .  but I haven’t been impressed by what I’ve seen from the outside looking in.  It’s a shame, too.  My father retired from Ford after 35 years and I spent six years with them – some of the most fun I’ve ever had in a “job.”  Especially liked the high-bank test track!

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    #138122

    Charles H.
    Participant

    Slogans are nothing more than a poor excuse for and an abdication of leadership.  It assumes that the worforce is in control of the systems and processes they use to make a quality product.  We all know what Deming thought about that subject, and I totally agree with him.  Management owns it.

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    #138123

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    julio_slsc,I’ll answer your inane question since you obviously don’t know anything about TPS.They are successful for a lot of reasons. Design, styling, distribution, purchasing, etc as well as quality. Following your logic we can use TPS on a Checker Cab and it will become a large seller – no it is more than TPS.TPS does have many components and one of them is Kaikaku which is a breakthrough strategy. Do they do SS by name? No. Do they understand there is a difference between incremental improvement and breakthrough? Yes. Do they have both strategies? Yes.If you want a response on that show me where I said it. You won’t be able to do that.Your turn. Justify with something other than inuendo and coincidence the relationship between Ford, bankruptcy and Six Sigma. I think your last post was pure cowardice because someone called you on your nonsense and you can’t admit what an ignorant statement you chose to put in writing.

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    #138124

    julio_slsc
    Participant

    Well since you so elegantly inferred profanity and used insults, I can only conclude as you your level of education. Do you have the qualifications to write on this board?

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    #138125

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Charles H,
    Be careful Charles this seems to be a tough day for cause and effect. Management owns it unless they have chosen to do SS. At that point anything that goes wrong has been caused by the SS process or so I have been told. You know if there are particularly bad days when you are doing SS and the moon is full it can also be an interaction that is causing the problem but that can be off set by burning incense in a circle of stones and painting the door and window sills blue to keep out evil spirits.
    Regards

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    #138126

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    I have a few. Obviously you don’t.
    Still avoiding the question aren’t you. Come on – lets see you put the logic together beyond coincidence that SS was the cause of Fords bankruptcy. You’;re ducking down every alley to avoid backing up some grandiose statement that was complete nonsense.

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    #138127

    Learner
    Participant

    Julio, he just think and write as is. If this is the level of sixsigma professionals, why wonder of sixsigma failures ?  

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    #138128

    Charles H.
    Participant

    WOW!  Thanks Mike.  I was looking for something that would take the place of my Deming mantra: “Deminggggggggggmmmmmmmmmmm . . .  Deminggggggggmmmmmmmmmmm . . ”  Sometimes it just doesn’t work well.  I think it may have something to do with the Juran Curse.  Or it may be the vultures hanging out looking for roadkill on the State Hwy.  The incense might really help out with that one.  Thanks again.
    Do you think Julio knows where Toyoda, Ohno and Shingo learned from in the beginning?  Another example of the “student” becoming the “teacher” in that one, huh?

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    #138130

    Charles H.
    Participant

    Okay – I’ll bite.  Is part of it having anything to do with the debt base of the retirement packages that the existing workforce and sales have to support?
    Would another part of it have anything to do with the Management Team and the Board making stupid decisions?  I am really glad that Ford now has “Innovation” as their slogan.  Unfortunately, I have seen unbridled “innovation” kill many good products and services.  Innovation without a spoken aim – what a concept.

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    #138131

    julio_slsc
    Participant

    No real concept of 6s exists at this point in time. That is good for shareholders since obvious disasters abound. Your infamous black belts and other hues of belts have proven a disaster. Do you obtain feedback from the departments?
    Duck the question? You ducked the one on Toyota and Ford.
    Six Sigma led to lower quality at Ford. Do we really need T-birds with steering wheels coming off. Six Sigma is supposed to prevent that. It did not. It failed. We all know what that does to revenues and expenses.
    What are you going to do now, Karate chop me with your black belt.
    “Black Belt,” Do you realize how odd that sounds to other business people?
    julio

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    #138132

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Charles,
    If you can get one of those vortex things going on it really helps as well. Some salt on the window sills will keep things pure.
    I think Julio was looking for one of those storm the bastile responses and ducking and diving to figure out how to get out of the hole he dug. Best advice – stop digging.
    Regards

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    #138133

    Darth
    Participant

    I remember walking around one of the manufacturing plants and came upon two doors leading to the shop floor.  One said, “Quality is Job #1” and the other said, “Safety is Job #1”.  What a quandry?

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    #138134

    Charles H.
    Participant

    Alright!  All they needed was one more door with a donkey behind it and they could have done the Marilyn vos Savant exercise for real . . . .  Now, let me see . . . Is it better to switch or stay?

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    #138135

    julio_slsc
    Participant

    I have two major problems with 6s,
    Goofy hued belts denoting magical powers
    The misues of accounting information for managerial purposes.
    Experienced CPAs can make use of accounting information and provide guidance.
    as for magical mulit hued belts?
    Spare me the magical multi-hued belts.

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    #138137

    EdG
    Participant

    julio,
    Might the difference be the effective implementation and use of a toolset (doesn’t matter which one) versus the ineffective implementation and use of a toolset?
    If Toyota possess the correct combination of culture, leadership, and employee empowerment to “get it right” and Ford does not; then the results may have still been the same if the toolsets were reversed.  Meaning it is MORE than the toolset.
    I had a teacher that once said, “Never underestimate anyone’s stupidity.”  That probably applies to arrogance also.  If you are too arrogant or ignorant to correctly use a tool, then it probably doesn’t matter which tool I place in your hands.  You will probably still foul things up…
    my 2 cents…

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    #138138

    Darth
    Participant

    Charles, if you want, I can send you a copy of the picture of me and Deming.  You can put the candles on either side to help achieve your state of serenity.

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    #138139

    Charles H.
    Participant

    It’s very clear to me now.  Ford is near bankruptcy because they use milti-colored belt schemes.  Sounds logical to me.  You know, I never could trust those “belts” myself.  Turn your back on them, and the colors change and do all sorts of bad stuff.  I caught one color sneaking around and “decorating” the data, just for fun.  We fired it and got a different color that was much more a team player.  I think it was pink.

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    #138140

    Charles H.
    Participant

    Thanks Darth,  Much appreciated.  I have one of my own from the June 92 seminar, one he took with the guys I worked with at GenDyn that were in the inaugural Deming Scholars class at Fordham (the only one to actually be taught by Deming before he died) and one of my old mentor and boss, Bill Lareau, with him as well.  Actually, come to think of it, go ahead and send it.  I can use all the positive karma I can get.  ;-)

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    #138141

    Darth
    Participant

    Julio, are the experienced CPAs you are referring to the same ones that worked at Enron?  The procedures were in place, the rules were known, the methods and tools work but did it prevent management from doing something stupid and illegal?  I think that is the point Ed was making and what Deming said to me years ago.  The tools and methods work, the key is execution and implementation.  Ford and the companies you referenced all had similar tools.  Toyota and Honda used them better.  Why are some airlines better than others?  They all buy the same planes, have similar reservation and online capabilities, hire similar profiles for pilots and flight attendents etc.  It is execution and use of the their resources.  Don’t blame the gun if it is used by a deranged SS consultant to kill a Forum Poster.  The gun works but how it was used was wrong.

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    #138142

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    julio_slsc,
    “No real concept of 6s exists at this point in time.” Interesting since you just asked me if I was qualified to post. I suppose my assumption that your are not has become more valid.
    The answer is there on the Toyota and Ford you just need to be intelligent enough to understand or else you have conveniently low comprehension. The strategy is common although the name is not. Something happened at one and not the other. Where is your cause and effect. What you are suggesting is a one factor regression. Bankruptcy = f (Six Sigma). That falls apart since not everyone who files bankruptcy does SS and not everyone who does SS is bankrupt.
    “Six Sigma led to lower quality at Ford.” Another glittering generality. Prove it.
    “Your infamous black belts and other hues of belts have proven a disaster.” Another glittering generality. Prove it.
    The little karate chop thing is infantile but when you can’t get the egg off your face I guess anything will do. You delivered your own karate chop when you started balsting with no knowledge of what you were speaking about and then admitted it. It is what we call a lack of integrity.
    Before you think something sounds odd. Check out the job postings on the home page. there are a lot business men trying to hire what you believe sounds odd. Lets see, is Jack Welch a business person? Yes. I believe he is a fairly well recognized business person. Does he think it sounds odd? He uses the term extensively in several of his books – the assumption must be Jack Welch does not want to write a book where he sounds odd so he must not believe it sounds odd. We can do the same for Bossidy and several other bussiness persons. Maybe you just don’t get it.
    Every now and then you will see when children play, one child run from the others and throw dirt over their shoulder as they run so the other kids chasing them will not see where they went because of the dust. That is how you appear at this moment.

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    #138143

    Darth
    Participant

    I can also send you my closet full of multicolored belts.  I gave them up years ago because Julio is correct, they detracted from my ability to properly use SS tools.  I now wear colored suspenders with matching color socks.  It has done wonders.

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    #138144

    julio_slsc
    Participant

    6s has two major flaws:
    Multi hued belt college kids that have magical powers due to their belts but no knowlege of the process. They rob the guys on the line of their decision making power . The belt kids throw wrenches in the process.
    Misuse of accounting information.
    I would also add a third, supplier abuse.

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    #138145

    GomezAdams
    Participant

    Mike and Darth.
    You silver tounged devils!!!!
    Julio,
    What orifice has your nose been in lately!
     

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    #138146

    Charles H.
    Participant

    Thanks for the heads up.  My belts just became ties.  Dang, now I have to start wearing ties again. Can you tie a Windsor knot in a karate belt?  I hate this six sigma stuff!  Gets too hard to do the dance, sometimes.  I guess I could go for the suspenders and socks, but that would be an added expense . . .  Tough decisions abound!
     

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    #138147

    julio_slsc
    Participant

    Prove Six Sigma led to lower quality at Fix or repair daily.
    Gee, the head guy said do 6s
    Then the place fell apart.
     
    and the black belts got bonuses.
    and the stockholders got egg on their faces.
     
    julio

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    #138148

    Darth
    Participant

    Mike,
    You and Charles are having way toooo much fun with this post.  I’m on lunch break…..what’s your excuse? :-). 
    By the way, we have been in touch with our mutual, the Indian Mikel Harry.  Coincidentally, the contact on our side is another old associate of yours from the dark times at the evil consulting company.  Life is so connected.

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    #138150

    Darth
    Participant

    Julio, on conceptual level I agree with you.  Inexperienced personnel with little process knowledge who try to impose change without input is a bad way to do business.  Unfortunately, that label can’t be isolated to just SS folks.  Any internal or external consultant, manager, engineer, etc. has done that at some time.  Misuse of accounting information has already been covered by the Enron issue and has nothing to do with SS.  Supplier abuse has been around since the dawn of the industrial revolution and is not the sole domain of SS.
    As to the continued references to belt colors and their magical powers that argument is not worthy of discussion and is nothing more than colorful (don’t mind the pun) hyperbole on your part.
    You sound particulary bitter so I will assume that you feel you have been wronged by some SS deployment somewhere.  You have sought out what appears to you as the obvious villian, SS.  Yet, the wrongs you keep describing have been prevalent in business for hundreds of years and will likely be around for eons to come.

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    #138151

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Julio_slsc,
    That is lot more of the accusations with no facts from a guy who admits no knowledge of SS.
    It sounds to me more like some BB fixed something you screwed up and you have a problem. Now you are going to show up here and slap a little more egg on your face.
    The benefits numbers from my last deployment were audited and said to be understated by two major accounting firms.
    Do yourself a favor and stop digging.

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    #138152

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    gomezadams,
    Welcome to the jungle on this interesting Thursday morning.
    Julio has a self esteem problem this moring and he seems to believe that self flagelation will help.
    Regards

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    #138153

    GomezAdams
    Participant

    No problem.
    Remember the case of “attempting to argue with a wall?”

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    #138154

    Charles H.
    Participant

    Come to think of it – didn’t the Monks in “The Holy Grail” wear black belts as they beat themselves while marching in line humming something or other?  Hmmm . .  it is all becoming much clearer now.

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    #138155

    GomezAdams
    Participant

    Nope!
    They had rope belts!
    Thats what the gents at Enron dictated. You can see how well they are doing.
    Now they have another use for their belt.

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    #138156

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Charles,
    I have run into some great people at Ford that I enjoyed working with. The unfortunate side is that they seem (or at least used to) to use the SQE slot for in plant retirement. When your plant is outside San Antonio Texas you learn to dislike the winter months because you can do a simple Chi Square test and show a statistical difference in the frequency of visits in those months where the weather is bad in Detroit.
    There was a person on here who claimed to have created the 8D. No way to verify but no real reason not to believe either. The discussion showed a lot of integrity in the creation of the method. The implementation at the supplier level is punitive so they can run back with this paper in their hand and say “look at me I am showing my supplier how to do it correctly.” Then you go to TOPS training and when they tell you it is not a punitive tool. You feel as if you are sitting on one of the concentric rings and watch every supplier in the room convulse.
    A friend of mine was a supplier to Ford. Bought a Mecury (I think) and the seat caught fire. When he called in and asked someone at Ford to respond to why his seat caught fire on an 8D they refused. Why? It is supposed to be a good thing right?
    Ford is like any other company. It has a distribution around the talent and the intelligence at some level. It truncates as it moves up but what it truncates to is set by whomever is at the top.
    Congratulations to your father. 35 years is a demonstration of dedication.
    Regards

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    #138157

    Charles H.
    Participant

    I must have them confused with your Uncle Fester, then . . .  Didn’t he have a black belt over his robe?

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    #138159

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    I remember “Don’t try to teach a pig to sing. All it does is irritate the pig.”
    I used that is a class in South America once and the guy in the front row looked at me and asked if I just called him a pig. Not then but maybe this time.

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    #138160

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Clearer? “I thought it was onward through the fog.” (that one is for Stan – it was sign over his desk).
    In julio’s case “ignore facts, data, or logic – keep digging!”
    Regards

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    #138161

    EdG
    Participant

    julio,
    With a little bit of research anyone can identify a handful of companies that just as equally failed through the implementation and use of Lean (TPS) vice Six Sigma.  Does that prove the antithesis of your assertion?
    As I said poor leadership, inappropriate use of tools, and zero empowerment will overcome the PERFECT toolset.  Regardless of the toolset.
    I believe the concept of CAP addresses this.  E = Q x A  If A (Cultural Acceptance) is very low, E (Effectiveness) will also be very low even if Q (Technical Quality) is “perfect”.  However if Q and A are at a moderate level, the measure E will be much more effective. 
    10 (Q) x 1 (A) = 10 (E)   – no matter how you slice it.
    6 (Q) x 5 (A) = 30 (E)   – three times more effective than the perfect technical solution used in the first example.
    Darth,
    How’s GG treating you?  Hope all is well.  I’m about ready for a padded room, but so goes life…
    EdG

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    #138162

    Joe Druecker
    Participant

    Having studied under Dr. Deming for a number of years and having been invited to his statistical seminar at NYU in 1991, I am confident in saying that there is no conflict between his philosphy and Six Sigma.  The Doctor said it himself, “If I had to sum up my philosophy in a few words, I’d say it is to reduce variation.” The six sigma methodology when enfolded in the Deming philosophy will be most powerful and effective.

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    #138163

    Heebeegeebee BB
    Participant

    Julio, Julio, Julio…Where to start?
    You have been completely outclassed.   You fell on your own sword concerning correlation and cause/effect.   Stop digging yourself in deeper.
    Take a breath.
    Do a little search on this forum and on google/yahoo/whatever for Mike Carnell.   His credentials speak volumes.
    now tha being said, Mike, I think it’s finally time to eat our young.   you get first dibs.
     

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    #138164

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    gomezadams,
    The Sam Kinison thing on Jim Baker comes to mind where Kinison says “Baker you loser! Kill yourself.” Makes sounds of rope creaking. Unfortunately according to the Houston Cronicle, Ley has taken the Regan defense and claims he doesn’t recall being told the restrictions on his $80,000,000 line of credit (I know – if I was giving someone that much credit – why would I actually tell them what they couldn’t do with it – a post it note on the forehead of their PA should be sufficent). Now they are considering letting this guy off because he may not have known! In the words of Lewis Black “I took a pencil and shoved it in my eye because if I am going to hurt that bad I am going to do it to myself.” 
    Welcome to Texas where you never get justice in a coutroom with a ceiling fan and money will buy you a fair trial.
    Regards

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    #138165

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    JD,
    This may be a paraphrase (I only saw Deming once – he was extremely old had taught all day and was doing a discussion at night so he dozed off frequently but in the words of Jim Blanden I just wanted to bath in the aura). The point around eliminating numerical targets at one point stated without a method to get there. That does bring SS into the realm of what he would support. He may or may not have agreed with the tools and structure but it is a long way from quality by exhortation.
    Just my opinion

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    #138166

    Darth
    Participant

    Ed, things are good.  If you are ready for the big time, we could use a guy like you.

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    #138168

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Heebeegeebee BB,
    I think I would have to pass on julio – it could be to bitter.
    I had a guy in Detroit introduce me to a person once and we started to talk. About 2-3 minutes into the conversation I was looking for a graceful way to get out of the conversation because it lacked any intelligence or continuity. About 30 minutes later I made my exit. As we walked away the person who introduced me said “Don’t you feel dumber after talking to that person?” Deja Vu.
    Regards

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    #138169

    Charles H.
    Participant

    Again, I totally agree, Mike.  Some of the best people I’ve ever worked with were at Ford.  My immediate boss, a Principal Engineer over the Charging System, was the best I’ve ever worked for.  Knowledgable, empowering, and of the highest integrity (that group is part of Visteon, now).  Like my father, there were, and I am sure still are, many who really love and care about the product and the company.  They want to do the right hthing, whatever that is.  And yes – I still drive nothing but Fords.  I do follow the old addage of not buying a first year production run car, though.  I still have nightmares of those new car plant start-ups and the pre-production validation runs.

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    #138170

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Charles,
    I enjoyed the Sci Lab people. It was like watching that professor Irwin Corey in person except there was usually a payoff in the conversation somewhere.
    Unfortunately from my experience as a supplier to Ford I refused to purchase any of their products (almost). I had an old SUV – 4th or 5th generation hand me down expat vehicle. Its the airport/beach/fishing car these days (and the one some teen age drivers borrow from time to time: the definition of fear – a teen age driver in a car that has no value).
    Regards

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    #138172

    Charles H.
    Participant

    I’m not too sure Joyce Orsini over at Fordham or the gang on the DEN at Clemson would agree with your statement.  The DEN participants seem to really get their ire up over Six Sigma.  Must admit, I haven’t heard what Joyce thinks about it all.  Darth, have you heard anything?

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    #138173

    GomezAdams
    Participant

    Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

    0
    #138174

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Darth,
    What a rush. After several weeks on antibiotics when my friend tried to kill using the weather I wake up to this! I returned to my place of solitude and find out that it has been taken over by people who have lost their minds.
    We do need to speak about the tales from Scottsdale. Very cathartic.
    I’m not sure if it is linked but the SS world does seem to be incestuous.
    Regards

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    #138176

    Charles H.
    Participant

    You wanna know what real fear is?  How about a lease role car from the company given to two teenage male speedracers.  One of the benefits my father had from Ford and my brother and I had the rental car attitude.  That lasted until my father caught me doing a burnout in a 1972 Mercury Brougham.  Smoked them tires!  Right in front of himas he pulled in from work one day.  So much for the lease car driving for about five months.  He said the guys in the HQ garage in Dearborn wondered why we were going through rear tires so fast .

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    #138177

    EdG
    Participant

    Darth,
    Are you and the Emperor trying to tempt me with the dark side of the force?  No… I must… resist…
    I’ll keep that in mind.  Thanks for asking though.
    Have you heard the latest?  We are merging all of the various programs and training materials into one package.  My but I have been busy with that.  Given all of the players that we have had involved with this, it could very easily become the standard for big navy or even dod.
    Take care…  Is it happy hour yet?  This past weekend I have a mighty tasty Rum Runner onboard the Wonder…  Kind of tastes like another…

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    #138178

    GomezAdams
    Participant

    Lost our minds???
    Be gentle O illustrious lords of light!
    Its just our monthly PM scheduled “Cranial Enema”!!!

    0
    #138179

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    GA,
    You tell them turn right and they go left (from the right lane) and you ask which is your right and they say we don’t cover that until our senior year – you want to change the HOV lane to teenage drivers only lined with old tires and mattresses. I had no idea an old SUV could turn that sharply. The blur made the drive interesting.
    Regards

    0
    #138182

    Darth
    Participant

    GA, Carnell mentioned the loss of mind, not me.  I certainly agree that a regularly scheduled CE is just the thing before a long holiday weekend. 
    By the way, it is Darth’s birthday tomorrow so the Force will be unusually strong especially in SoBe thanks to Don Julio and all his friends.  The Vadermobile will be ready to go.  DarthDog will have on his best collar and Mrs. Darth will be dressed up as sexy as can be.  Hope she decides to go out with me.  If not, I have alternative plans with Babe of a Sister….Mrs. Stans’ not mine. 

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    #138187

    GomezAdams
    Participant

    Mike,
    I can relate with the teenage drivers.
    Had five of them.
    Morticia and I kept an old blue Astro van specifically for their formative years of driving.
    We had it come home from IU South Bend one day with the whole side torn to ****.
    Our daughter (now a police dispatcher in Alaska) conveyed that she could’nt recall what happened.
    When I went up to the school to teach an FMEA class that evening,
    I noted a dividing wall going into the underground garage sporting a
    random smattering of blue paint. Go figure!!!!!
    So yeah,
    I agree with the whole tires and mattress thing.
    More specifically, the keeping of an older and useless vehicle for their personnal use.

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    #138190

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    GA,
    Did you send her to Alaska for wrecking the car?
    So far nobody has hit these two and I have no idea why. If I thought about doing some of this stuff someone would hit me.
    I cannot imagine surviving 5. I survived my two and a friend has two. It is amazing what you will do for a homecooked meal (other than my home).
    Regards

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    #138191

    EdG
    Participant

    Mike,
    Did julio decide that he doesn’t want to play anymore???

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    #138192

    Darth
    Participant

    Would that old and useless car happen to be a Ford?  According to our disappearing Julio, that’s all that they are useful for.

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    #138193

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Charles,
    Cool. I would have given anything to be able to smoke the tires when I was that age.
    Regards

    0
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