iSixSigma

Six Sigma/TQM – Which is Better?

Six Sigma – iSixSigma Forums Old Forums General Six Sigma/TQM – Which is Better?

  • This topic has 192 replies, 117 voices, and was last updated 11 years ago by nggf.
Viewing 93 posts - 101 through 193 (of 193 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #116154

    Gem
    Participant

    Hi everyone,
    I have now got the form to gain permission so i can put the Dilbert  stip in my dissertation on Six Sigma and TQM. Would anyone be so kind as to tell me the date the article was published or else it costs me and extra $25.
    Thanks

    0
    #116167

    Darth
    Participant

    I understand that Stan will tell you for only $24 so you save money.

    0
    #116168

    Mikel
    Member

    I don’t know Darth, this one is a smart one. Going for a disertation and all. Besides that, they found the place on the Dilbert web page where you can buy permission to reprint a cartoon – and they haven’t even been exposed to those waste reduction tools except in an academic setting!!! Did it in only four days. As Gomer used to say – Sheezamm!
    I’ll sell it for only $23.99. For an extra 50 cents, I’ll throw in a GB certificate with a forged signature of the infamous Dr. Harry Mikel.

    0
    #116189

    Gem
    Participant

    Sorry, is any one really able to help me?
    I really think this site should be a little more welcoming. Surely this forum’s aim is help people and discuss relevant and topical issues, not for sarcastic comments. Obviously, I am a student and am not as clued up on Six Sigma as others on this sitre, but is there any need to patronise?  Every time I post on this forum, I am worried about the negative comments I will receive and I also see this directed at many other students on this site. Surely this is not a way to attract new people to this forum? Is there any need for negativity? It surprises me that grown adults behave in such a shameless way. Im sure you were all students once, and appreciate that we should be treated with as much respect as other members on this site.

    0
    #116190

    Gem
    Participant

    Oh, and for the record Stan, I have worked at both Xerox UK and Centrica who both implemented Six Sigma, during my time there, so your assumption that I ‘haven’t even been exposed to those waste reduction tools except in an academic setting’ is completely unfounded. I am in fact a yellow belt, it may not be much, but it is a start. As I said in the previous post, please refrain from patronising students, in this unnessesary way. 

    0
    #116191

    Gem,
    This subject has received a lot of attention over the years .. I guess many are tired of it.
    I don’t know if you’re are aware, but Japanese companies often refer to their quality systems as ‘Total Quality Control,’ which includes TPS Lean – not Womach’s Lean!!!
    Now if you were to re-phrase your question I would reply TQC, but then that would be misleading because Japanese engineers invented Cpk, management by facts, and many other aspects of Six Sigma.
    In fact, in 1987 when Motorola launched the Six Sigma programme it was in response to the Cherokee Project – a joint venture between Motorola and Toshiba; and all they did was change the name of the existing program to Six Sigma – we all had to change our Powerpoint slides! The original Motorola quality improvement program began in Phoenix under the tutelage of Dorian Shainin. Later Austin launched their won quality improvement program under George Fisher and Bill George. Anyone who tells you any different is either lying or doesn’t know what he/she is talking about!
    Regards,
    Andy

    0
    #116194

    Gem
    Participant

    Sorry that wasnt what I needed help for. I was just wandering if anybody knew the date when the Dilbert Six Sigma/ TQM cartoon was published as am in the process of asking permission to put it in my dissertation.
    Thanks

    0
    #116196

    Mikel
    Member

    Gem,
    I apologize if you think I patronize students. I do not. Not in the condensending meaning of the word or the sponsorship meaning of the word.
    It does not have anything to do with students. It has to do with people who 1) want to be spoonfed and 2) are blowing the opportunity to really learn something on a nonsense topic.
    On the spoonfed side, I went and did about 5 minutes worth of looking before I posted my response. What was I looking for? Google – dilbert. Ten seconds later I am on Scott Adams site dilbert.com. Looked for another 15 seconds and found –  dilbert in your publication. Found out how to buy after reading what they had posted there. I am one minute into the exercise at this point. I then when to the archives and have to admit their search capability could be better. But since you don’t know it, let me introduce you to one of the best shallow research tools out there – Google. I was poking fun at your revelation after 4 days that was less than a minute of work for anyone. Does not have anything to do with whether you are a student or not.
    On the learning side, Why would you waste time on this topic? So much hype, so much wasted words. You want something interesting, do research on what really works – go back to Deming, Juran, Shingo, Ohno, Taguchi, Shainin, … Forget the stupid labels, predict what a company should be doing in 2010 if they really want to compete in the world market. Is that tougher than what you have chosen? Yea

    0
    #116197

    Gem
    Participant

    Stan,
    I did use google, I did find the site, which I have been in correspondance with in order to gain a request form. However, as you admit, their archieving searching facility is poor, which is why I looked to the members on this site for help. Im sure if you recall there is a particulary long thread on the subject of this cartoon. I did not use this site as labour saving device. Thankyou.

    0
    #116198

    Gem
    Participant

    In fact Stan, if you had bothered if search the archieve, you would see that the archieve only covers the previous months cartoons, which is no use to me. Hence I turned to this website. As I said previously, not everyone may be as clued up as you, but all people ask for is guidance, not spoonfeeding. Sorry for posting a lot of replies to you, but I have NO time for people, who gain pleasure from making others look small.

    0
    #116199

    Mikel
    Member

    By the way, if you stepped up to the task of research with substance, there are several on here who would patronize you (meaning to assume the sponsorship of, we believe in the concept of a champion). You have Andy U who has lived with the hype and is forging a path he knows is right even though I know he could be rich by selling the hype. You have Mike C. who is doing the same. You have Dr. Darth and Phil and Vinny – all with PhD’s, all with humility and a sense of humor. There are many others, including me who bothered to learn and dedicate careers to helping others learn (you really learn when you take the leap to helping another understand). Yes, I come on here to play and poke fun at those selling hype and at those who don’t seem to be taking the hard road of really learning. I also help. I have provided course materials, excel add-ins that I wrote myself to some that don’t have access to Minitab, and I have even sat down and written tem pages on a topic for some. The common thread for those I really help? They have done something to make me think they are not just another member of the Six Sigma cult chanting and going through the motions. I think if you look – about 5% of the people on here have knowledge and will share, another 5 -10 % are truely seeking to learn, the rest either provide advice on things they don’t have a clue about or wait to be spoonfed.
    If you want some real help, ask a different question than give me a specific Dilbert comic and oh, by the way, I don’t Google and I am not willing to spend a few hours searching the Dilbert archives.

    0
    #116200

    Mikel
    Member

    Gem,
    Go have your hissy fit somewhere else. Come back if you want to learn.
    By the way, a Dilbert cartoon adds no value to research.

    0
    #116202

    Gem
    Participant

    But that is the only help i require, as I remember it was a guy called Tony who said he had it. I have found the actual comic strip, but the date is too small for me to read and when enlarged becomes even more harder to read. Im sure if you remember, whilst being a student, money is tight and am trying to save an extra $25 needed for them to search from it. As simple as that.
    PS. you would not have been able to search through the Dilbert achieve as they only have the previous months strip, as stated in my last posting.

    0
    #116203

    Mikel
    Member

    Gem,
    I’ll make you a deal. If you take on something of substance, I’ll buy you the search capability subscription for six months and I’ll buy you the actual strip – a value of $40.
    What I get in return is the right to have Andy U, Mike C, Darth and myself give you an honest critique before you present your findings.
    Interested?

    0
    #116208

    Gem
    Participant

    I would have been, if it were not due in next month.
    I am also fully aware that the topic I have chosen is not especially original, nor stretching, and as bad as this sounds, my priority was not to research something which would be of any use to the quality profession, but merely to pass my dissertation. I fully appreciate that it is a career to most of you and dont get me wrong, I am interested in the Quality movement (in fact hoping myself to perhaps look at graduate jobs in this field), but for this specifc case, I am more interested in gaining my degree. In my university, there is more emphasis put on the methodology and evaluation used within a dissertation, rather than the subject.
    As bad as this may sound, it is the truth.

    0
    #116212

    Mikel
    Member

    Thanks for the honest response.
    If you ever need help beyond an archive of Dilbert cartoons (I read them but do not save them), email me at [email protected].
     

    0
    #116235

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Gem,
    I really don’t want to get into this thing but you need to get a little thicker skin if you are going to do public forums or more specifically publish. Any time I have anything published I get some nice responses from a fairly regular group. You need to see some of the emotional stuff you get as well. Just what happens.
    You do need to watch the copyright iisue though. You would think a professional consultancy like Tata would know better.
    Good luck.

    0
    #116242

    hollie
    Participant

    Gem: I’m interested in the Dilbert strip too.  Would you mind sending me a copy at [email protected]?  Thanks…

    0
    #116822

    Cannizzo
    Participant

    First, I would like to thank you fine Gentlemen for the entertainment.  The fight to be alpha-male was quite enlightening.  Although, researching 6sigma was my goal I came away with something more valuable.
     
    TQM vs. 6 sigma jumps to a Dilbert cartoon resulting in the dissipation of actual knowledge sharing. 
     
    Conclusions: 
    1) Men are easily distracted
    2) A nice rack is more distracting than Dilbert. 
     
    ACTION:  When in doubt stand tall and let the girls take over.
     
    This post is in accordance with all 8 Etiquette requirements.
     

    0
    #116823

    Gem
    Participant

    Sorry- did you mean me?
    Not sure if you did or not, but just to clarify, Gem is short for Gemma.
     

    0
    #116824

    Dayton
    Member

    1) Men are easily distracted
    2) A nice rack is more distracting than Dilbert. 
     
    Amen.   Quite insightful and accurate (or was that “precise”?) – sorry, I got distracted….
     
    Vinny

    0
    #116827

    Mikel
    Member

    Carol,
    This is a site focused on having data. Since Gem has established that he does not have a good rack, you must be referring to yourself. We need data if we are going to let let such an outragous assertion stand.
    On the easily distracted claim, that can be easily measured in many tests  and is called a low drive for stability. It is kown to happen in as many women as men, so your stupid sexist comment is without merit. It would be like me saying that only women make stupid comments.
    BTW – it’s nice muscular legs that distracts me.

    0
    #116834

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    That is a very shallow and superficial comment. A sense of humor is very important. Haven’t you noticed how hilarious most of those models are?

    0
    #116846

    Gem
    Participant

    Im a she!! Not a he!

    0
    #116847

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Congratulations. So………………………?

    0
    #116849

    Gem
    Participant

    It was just as someone referred to me as ‘he’. No big deal.

    0
    #116850

    McD
    Participant

    With all the weird nicknames and eight bazillion different cultures on this forum, there’s no way to tell.  For all I know, “Mike Carnell” might be an obvious female name to a Tibetan.
    The good news is that on this forum it doesn’t really matter and you don’t get PMed every five minutes with “r u m or f?”
    –McD
     

    0
    #116891

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Gem,
    Carol obviously has issues and wanted to make gender the issue so we got the alpha male thing – makes her sound very aloof and detached. It is a behavioral comment and not necessarily gender specific – actually there are a fair number of women that will scare you worse than men at this behavior.
    Just my opinion.
    Good luck.

    0
    #116896

    Wong
    Member

    Hi.. I’m interested in the Dilbert cartoon. can you email a copy to me? thanks.

    0
    #116898

    New VGB
    Participant

    Disagree??

    0
    #116904

    MudaSensei
    Participant

    Now I am getting worried…………….
    ……………I have nice muscular legs…(must be to do with all the cycling)
    Stan, just got your email…..I was away on business trips, will be back in Holland from 29 th March……sorry I missed you whilst you were in Amsterdam…..perhaps next time round !

    0
    #128374

    Mandalia
    Member

    Hii Tony,
    I am immpresed by your article on six sigma and TQM diffrences.
    Can u tel me  guide me for the exact diffrences between QS & Ts16949.The same way , which u had done for six signa and TQM in form of diffrence table.

    0
    #128384

    Titu John
    Member

    Well  6-Sigma is a subset of TQM and I agree to this fact , if you look into the philosophy of TQM /just the way TQM is defined it says ,”Total Quality Management (TQM) is a management approach that aims for long-term success by focussing on customer satisfaction. TQM is based on the participation of all members of an organization in improving processes, products, services, and the culture/society in which they work.
     
    Sigma refers to a measurement of how far a given process deviates from perfection. Achieving Six Sigma quality requires producing no more than 3.4 defects per million opportunities for quality in meeting customer specifications. Six Sigma is a methodology for eliminating defects through process improvement, and its practices ensure repeatable success.
     Hence six sigma is very narrowly focused on to just a process, it can rather be called as a process improvement tool, with specific time lines & objective.

    0
    #128388

    Titu John
    Member

    The more significant changes to requirements in ISO/TS 16949:2002 are :

    Requirement to define Quality Objectives and Targets (clause 5.4.1.1)

    Increased requirements for Management Review (clause 5.6)

     Determination of employee competence (clause 6.2.2) and employee motivation & empowerment (clause 6.2.2.4)

    Inclusion of requirements for Process Design (clause 7.3)

    Enhanced Supplier Development and Supplier Monitoring requirements (clause 7.4

    Enhanced Customer Satisfaction requirements (clause 8.2.1.1)

    Increased requirements for Internal Audits (clause 8.2.2)

    0
    #128428

    anu anurag
    Participant

    I feel Both Six Sigma and TQM emphasize the importance of top-down support and leadership. Both approaches make it clear that continuous quality improvement is critical to long-term business success, there is nothing like technies or CEO’s used it or developed it…
    what i think is
    Six Sigma 1st developed as step of improvement (DMAIC)…but now mature as philosophy
    TQM is first come as Philosophy then we tailored it into Business excellence model
    here is the new way of comparison TQM and SIX SIGMA

    TQM
    TQM new look/ Best way to look
    Six Sigma

    A functional specialty within the organization.
     Structured framework which focused on Business result by developing the Business process through leadership and strategic planning
    An infrastructure of dedicated change agents.  Focuses on cross-functional value delivery streams rather than functional division of labor.

    Focuses on quality.
    Focuses on Business result (customer focus & Market Focus)
    Focuses on strategic goals and applies them to cost, schedule and other key business metrics.

    Motivated by quality idealism.
    Its “In and Out ” approach by focusing on HR,Measurment,Analysis & Knowledge management
    Driven by tangible benefit far a major stockholder group (customers, shareholders, and employees).

    Loosely monitors progress toward goals.
    Insure the well developed Process which will insure fruitful benefits (tangible & intangible )
    Ensures that the investment produces the expected return.

    People are engaged in routine duties (Planning, improvement, and control).
    Self- motivated, empowered people continually improve the key process for creating customer value while respecting the cultural diversity of the workforce
    “Slack” resources are created to change key business processes and the organization itself.

    Emphasizes problem solving.
    Emphasizes on  Business Excellences
    Emphasizes breakthrough rates of

     
    improvement.

    Focuses on standard performance, e.g. ISO 9000.
    Focus on the Key process and its result by integrating Human Resources
    Focuses on world class performance, e.g., 3.4 PPM error rate.

    Quality is a permanent, full-time job. Career path is in the quality profession.
    Quality is Permanent, full-time job i.e responsibility of all not of the QA dept.(chalanges for QA team)
    Six Sigma job is temporary. Six Sigma is a stepping-stone; career path leads elsewhere.

    Provides a vast set of tools and techniques with no clear framework for using them effectively.
    TQM Models MBNQA,Deming Prize,EQA,IMC which provide an framework to excel
    Provides a selected subset of tools and techniques and a clearly defined framework for using them to achieve results (DMAIC).

    Goals are developed by quality department based on quality criteria and the assumption that what is good for quality is good for the organization.
    Goal are set and timely evaluated on the following matrices by Customer-focused result, Product and service result, Financial and Market Result, Human Resource Result, Organizational Effectiveness Result, Governance and Social Responsibility Result
    Goals flow down from customers and senior leadership’s strategic objectives. Goals and metrics are reviewed at the enterprise level to assure that local sub-optimization does not occur.

    Developed by technical personnel.
     
    Developed by CEOs.

    Focuses on long-term results. Expected payoff is not well-defined.
     
    Six Sigma looks for a mix of short-term and long-term results, as dictated by business demands

    0
    #131137

    easyas123
    Participant

    Maybe this is the dilbert cartoon everyone wanted: http://www.asq.org/pub/sixsigma/past/vol1_issue1/dilbert.html
    It was pretty easy to find. If you want more dilbert cartoons, then search in that site. Google is great and it’s obvious that people are lazy.

    0
    #131146

    sillyidiot
    Member

    I suggest  a  new  name:”Creative  Improvement Strategies” (CIS) as  the new  version of  Advanced  TQM .I  believe  SS is  becoming “sick” and  it  will  “pass-away” in  few  years.Remember my  name “Sillyidiot” as  the  inventor of CIS.Please  don’t  attack  me ,it is  just  my  opinion????

    0
    #132749

    Deepak Negi
    Participant

    hi
    can you tell me something about Six Sigma implementation for pharmaceutical company.
    bye
    deepak

    0
    #134158

    Shilpa
    Member

    hi tony
    I am just a first year MBA student. i sought out to do a six minute presentation on six sigma a few days back and since then have immersed myself totally in its research.
    Could u pls send a copy of the cartoon to me at [email protected]
    Thanks & regards
    Shilpa

    0
    #136273

    Aquinas
    Member

    Hi,
    I am very late with this one. But can you please send me the cartoon also if you still have it?
     
    Many thanks,
     
    [email protected]

    0
    #136740

    amrev
    Participant

    Hi Tony,
    I am new to this forum and all that postings on the Dilbert cartoon has made me curious.Can you plz mail me that cartoon at [email protected]
    Thanks.
     
     

    0
    #137576

    Rik
    Member

    Please send me a copy of your overview.
    Thanks!

    0
    #137594

    a viray
    Participant

    Does anyone have the Dilbert cartoons regarding Six Sigma/TQM? I would apprecriate an email of the cartoons if you have them.
    Thanks

    0
    #137608

    Sorour
    Participant

    We lost track of “Six Sigma/TQM- Which is Better?”
    The challenge with TQM was that it was poorly defined, meant different things to different people, and results were promised after three years, which was about the average stay of the Quality Manager on the job. People got tired of trying TQM, which eventually became a Total Quality Mess.
    Six Sigma is an accelerated method for achieving improvement in short-term, which is equal to the project duration of 4-6 months, and when institutionalized throughout, Six Sigma can lead to long term improvement.
    Six Sigma evolved beyond methodologies such as JIT, TQM, and Benchmarking, however, it does incorporate principles and tools of these methodologies.

    0
    #137614

    Charles H.
    Participant

    Paul,
    While I agree that TQM became a “total quality mess,” I must disagree with your root cause analysis.
    TQM was well defined in terms of its philosophy and concepts.  It was well rooted in the same principles as Six Sigma: Deming, Shewhart, et al.  It was not prescriptive in the methodology for the very fact that it was well understood that each organization, each management team, had to do the struggle with internalizing the concepts; learning them, adapting them and applying them in a way that made sense.
    Frankly, many of those who struggled with TQM are now struggling with Lean and Six Sigma.  They believe that “best practices” and case studies can be used as a template for their deployments.  “Hey, let’s do exactly what GE did!”  When it doesn’t work, they say that Six Sigma doesn’t work.  It was the same with TQM.
    IMHO, I don’t care what you call it, if you try to do a one-size-fits-all, cookbook approach to any initiative, it will not deliver its full potential.  We saw it with TQM and we see it now with Lean and Six Sigma.  I hope that one day these managers will wake up and realize that there is nothing to be done but the hard work necessary to improve the business.  There are no “silver bullets.”  An “overview” or “champion” training session doesn’t suffice.  One cannot delegate the responsibiity to a “belt.”  They must be inextricably linked and involved at a personal level.  It must be  a never-ending process of learning, adapting and applying.  Nothing less will work.
    Best regards,
    Charles H.
     

    0
    #137619

    Elbrin
    Participant

    It is not about which method is better.  Six Sigma is no more than an evolution of TQM.  Motorola took the TQM model and constructed a robust application of its principles in Six Sigma.  The difference between the other companies mentioned in which TQM did not work is that they lacked the leadership and discipline to make it work.
    Jack Welch became a personality after leading the turnaround at GE and then later from his book.  When Jack Welch credited Six Sigma with GE’s transformation and made it famous, the die was cast.  American business leaders thought to themselves, “I just have to do what Jack did, Six Sigma that’s the answer to my problems.”  They didn’t get it then and they don’t get it now.  Continuous Improvement is not a program it is a culture.  It must be woven into every aspect of your business, woven into the minds of every employee.  This can only be accomplished by leadership, and the discipline to stick through the difficult even painful transformation of a corporate culture.  These characteristics are conspicuously absent in top management throughout American business.  How has GE performed since Jack left?  Was it really Six Sigma that did it; or was Six Sigma just the tool used by a disciplined leader?

    0
    #137627

    John MNLSS
    Participant

    Congratulation  for  your  Excellent  Answer.You  just  hit  the  Target through  clarifying  the  real  difference  between  SS & TQM in  just  few  words.As  it  was  described  by  Bill Smith:Adding  a rigour statistic  to  the  fuzzy TQM plus  (as  you  have  said) do  it  in  just  4-6  months  instead  of  2-3  years,plus  (my  point  of  opinion) make  it  the  concern  of  everybody  in  the  organization (with  top  management  commitment  and  support?)  ,instead  of  the  quality  persons ??Who  are  very  arrogant and  perform  a  lot  of  miss  in  the  organization. Just  my opinion.

    0
    #137628

    Sorour
    Participant

    Yes, the improvement initiative must become a culture. They require passionate hardwork in applying proven tools creatively, and a very direct and disciplined leader. One can either make a choice of copying somebody else’s successful practice, or learn from the successful practice and adapt to ones organization. We are too much tuned into reproductive thinking rather than productive thinking.However, I still do believe that TQM was the ill-defined TLA (three letter acronym), which was first time defined through ISO system, which has its own problems due to adultrated role of accreditation and registrar bodies. That’s a different topic for discussion.
    Paul
     

    0
    #137634

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Paul,
    Interesting post. I agree with most of what you state. One issue is what you believe to be the cause of death of TQM (I believe something else but it doesn’t make what you believe incorrect). TQM became a training exercise. We were inundated with people who loved to appear enlightened and stand in front of class after class an pontificate on the seven basic tools. People tire quickly of spectators who claim they know the path to enlightenment, never get in the game and urinate all over everyone elses work like a drunken alley cat.
    Wrapping projects around SS training put the people back in the game. The whole idea was to force the application and that forced the trainers out of the pontification and into application.
    If you look at all the current product offerings for certification Six Sigma is slowly following a similar path. The Allied and GE deployments were never about certification. They were about results and certification was an ancillary effect. The fact that people are seeking certification in a company without a deployment is indication that it has turned from results to resume building. If you could watch a BB from a successful deployment have a discussion with a mail order BB the difference becomes obvious. The deployment guys understand that the tools need to be there but the issues around change management are as important.
    I do have an issue with your one comment at the end (and I may be reading to much into the post) “Six Sigma evolved beyond methodologies such as JIT, TQM, and Benchmarking, however, it does incorporate principles and tools of these methodologies.” Just as a refernce when I say the 7 Basic tools these are the tools I am referencing:
    Process Flow Diagrams
    Pareto Charts
    Histograms
    Run Charts
    Ishikawa Diagrams (Fishbone Diagrams, C&E Diagrams)
    Scatter Diagrams
    Control Charts
    Near as I can tell these are tools that were developed independently as a stand alone tool. Someone gathers them up and says behold “The 7 Basic Tools.” Someone else looks at the 7 Basic Tools and says “those are the tools of TQM.” Now anything that touches these tools was begat from TQM. Shewhart in all likelyhood never heard of TQM and may find it somewhat offensive to find that his control charts have now fallen through the TQM bunny hole. That is that mentality that says “wood floats therefore anything that floats is wood.”
    Sorry for the rant on tools. Nice post
    Just my opinion.
    Good luck

    0
    #137635

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Elbrin,
    Your first sentence is very true. The rest of your first paragraph is nonsense and you second paragraph is a glittering generalization that has nothing behind it.
    There were a lot of guys that wanted to be “just like Jack.” but that certainly doesn’t mean that none of them get it. Take a look at a guy named Timothy Tyson – this guy is great and he gets it.
    Just my opinion.
    Good luck

    0
    #137637

    Sorour
    Participant

    Mike:
    I agree with you about inclusion of seven and many so called TQM tools in the Six Sigma tool box. By saying ‘beyond TQM’ did not mean to exclude TQM, I meant Six Sigma was built upon previously known tools. I hope it clarifies it.
    Thanks for your comments,
    Paul

    0
    #137640

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Paul,
    Thanks for the response.
    If we follow the TQM logic Control charts are now the property of TQM and Shewhart is a footnote therefore the Six Sigma guys can clain ANOVA as theirs (sice TQM didn’t take it first) and Sir Ronald Fisher is now a footnote?
    This has been a long thread.
    Just my opinion.
    Regards

    0
    #137666

    Elbrin
    Participant

     Mike,
    I don’t know your background or experience.  Judging by your other postings on this site you seem very intelligent and knowledgeable about Six Sigma.  But you seem to be slightly blinded by the brilliance of the Six Sigma sun.  Six Sigma boasts it origins from the works of Shewhart, Deming and Juran.  After digging through my old TQM guide, I see the names Shewart, Deming, and Juran there as well; I see control charts, scatter diagrams, perato charts, process maps, SIPOC maps, and so on.  Having been in the quality industry for some 17 years I have seen programs come and go, and Six Sigma to be sure is the best most comprehensive I have seen.  It melds statistical data driven decisions with a rigorous project management methodology.
    My argument is not that DMAIC is a poor method; I practice it myself as a certified BB and part-time MBB.  My argument is, who heard of it outside of GE and Motorola until Jack made it famous in his book. And that the explosive adoption of Six Sigma is due to the copy cat mentality of modern business leadership.  The fact is that nation wide we are seeing only isolated success.  This is due to the lack of leadership by top management.  I have witnessed too many cases where management hires just a handful of BBs or maybe one MBBs and tells them, “Ok, Six Sigma us.”  They still don’t really believe that quality is the key to being competitive.  It takes the entire company to achieve and maintain world class quality.  And this kind of dedication to an idea requires leadership by example, and the discipline to stick to that goal.  We live in a business environment of chaos managers, and leadership by edict.  Where top management only descends from their ivory towers and mahogany covered walls to beat employees over the head for not meeting some arbitrary ill-defined objective.
    Yes this is a generalization but one that I have observed to be prevalent.
    If any of you reading this are a VP or above, ask yourselves, when was the last time I walked the floor without my entourage or a microphone in my hand, and asked how things are going, or what can I do to make your job easier.  People follow those they have met and feel they know.  Not some picture on a website.
    I have seen some very successful leaders, the one thing they all had in common, is they spent 30 to 40% of their time walking the production floor.

    0
    #137670

    Elbrin
    Participant

    Mike,
    It seems Timothy Tyson is a graduate of the U.S. Military Academy; hmm maybe he has had some leadership training.

    0
    #137684

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Elbrin,
    I have never seen a non-leader go to leadership training and become a leader. I have seen them become a less of a bad manager. 
    Maybe the Military Academy just has a way to identify leaders at admittance.
    Either way that wasn’t the point. You said they (management didn’t get it). That is another glittering generalization that is inaccurate.

    0
    #137687

    Elbrin
    Participant

    Mike,
    Yes, my statement was a generalization.  As I stated in the related reply.  This generlization is based on my observation across some 25 companies, and conversations with 100 or more senior managers.  Admittedly a small sample, none the less my observation.  Where I have seen success it is not a single method that creates that success.  It is the leadership which drives it.  In fact most success stories I have witnessed use more of a TOC and Lean approach than pure SS.
    Respecfully

    0
    #137688

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Elbrin,
    If you think I have been blinded by the Six Sigma light then you have not read very much. I am not sure what your intent was with the 17 years experience. Normally when I run into people who begin a discussion with I have X number years experience, it is an indicator they are about to pntificate with nothing behind it and we are all supposed to just swallow whatever nonsense they are about to dish out.
    You haven’t made a point that hasn’t been made repeatedly in terms of the tired old argument that there is no silver bullet. Old news.
    As far as Jack Werlch’s role check ou the model in “The Deviants Advantage.” There is nothing new to the evolution of Six Sigma that Watts Wacker doesn’t cover in his model. So is this thing with Jack Welch special? It is not. It is simply how products and ideas mature. Nike made a fortune on people who wanted to be “Just like Mike.”
    As far as MBWA another old idea but not necessarily a bad one. When was the last time I saw it? December when the CEO strolled into the office and spent 4 hours talking with the belts.
    Before you decide I am blinded you need to get a little retrospective and check ou the jaded nonsense. There is nothing more boring or irritating than the comment “I have seen programs come and go….”. People are busy, motivated, interested etc in trying to make a diffewrence and to have to spend one nanosecond placating the attitude “hey I saw that before” is a waste of time.
    Just my opinion.

    0
    #137689

    Elbrin
    Participant

    Mike,
    I don’t pretend to be the an authority on anything.  The 17 years is just a clarification that I did not just start in C.I. and quality after a 3 day online BB course.  You are right nothing I have written is new or inovative, yet mangement as a whole doesn’t seem to adhire to these commonly accepted practices.  Most of the generalizations I make are upheald by various articles in the Harvard Business Review.  I really don’t think we disagree that much, other than you don’t seem to like the way I make my point. Which was purposly worded to draw debate.
    Put concisely, it is not the method that makes the success it is the leadership.  In my opinion good leadership is much too rare in top management positions when looked at as a whole.
    That is really all I am saying.
    As far as reading, I try to, but I find myself too busy doing, to read as much as I would like.
     

    0
    #137732

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Elbrin,
    “…..good leadership is much too rare in top management positions when looked at as a whole.” This seems to be degenerating into the same discussionas we had last week as you latch on to the same passifier about top management. As a whole I find more leadership in top management than I do in middle management – particularly when looked at as a whole. Your management position is in top or middle management?
    “As far as reading, I try to, but I find myself too busy doing, to read as much as I would like.” This attitude would scare me if anyone of our people were to say something like that. Superficially it sounds good however that makes the assumption on your part that you have all the knowledge that you need and that there is nothing that you could read that would make you more efficient or effective. That is a dangerous attitude in a fast changing enviroment that we operate in today. The thing would be even scarier is if you made that decision 17 years ago when you started in CI.
    I thankful that my IT guy is never to busy doing to take the time to up date his skill sets.
    I am thankful that my physician is never to busy doing to update his skills.
    I am thankful my accountant attends conferences every year to update her skills and knowledge of tax laws,
    I am thankful my attorney attends classes regularly so she stays current on the laws that affect our business.
    The great part for you is you have such complete knowledge that you no longer need to stay current because nothing is changing in the continuous improvement arena? That is a bit of an oxymoron don’t you think?
    We do disagree considerably on a very basic level.
    Just my opinion.

    0
    #137744

    Learner
    Participant

    Mike, I’m a middle manager and I have not doubt to understand your position on middle mgt. Top mgt are your customer, operators are at too low level, so the best choice is to blame middle mgt. It is too clear, but for an experienced guy like you could know that if middle mgt is bad it is a failure of top mgt. Do you agree ? From your post seems yes, because you say that your middle mgt is good, also thanks to your policy, as top mgr. Is it right ?

    0
    #137761

    Elbrin
    Participant

    Mike,
    This discussion seems to have broken down into personal attacks.  Your ability to pull a single line from my post and explode it way out of context is a bit disheartening.  With this sort of ability I am sure you would make a great politician.

    0
    #140556

    Clare L. Natel
    Participant

    TQM, 6S, Lean or how about FISH! They’re all good when fully engaged. A mixture of fad and fact. Isolate the tool that work and stop wasting time debating the merits or demerits of each.
    The pursuit of perfection is an illusive dream with actual moments of bliss. Embrace the moments, linger as long as possible to recharge for the peak to be scaled. This is a human aspiration (aka “happiness) in our professional and personal facets of life.
    I can’t help but wonder how much ROI or LEAN before we reach a state of souless anorexia or worse, death??? Life is a stage…eventually the play ends. At that moment, on what will we reflect?
     

    0
    #140565

    Hans
    Participant

    You’re overdosing a little bit on the Christian Network …

    0
    #140567

    Heebeegeebee BB
    Participant

    More like the feel-good, new agey coom-by-yah network…
    favorite quote of the day, “your aura is dim”
    hee hee
    My aura is bright, because I had beans for dinner…
     

    0
    #140572

    Clare L. Natel
    Participant

    Hardly! Won’t bother to counter your unkind sentiment.  You remind me of the way I use to be — ugly.
    Enjoy your discussion forum (lol) and have a nice day! 

    0
    #140576

    Heebeegeebee BB
    Participant

    Please Claire, oh transcendant being of all things yummie and gooey, please stay and contribute..
     

    0
    #140579

    GomezAdams
    Participant

    Be careful or she will pull out Shelindrias wand and take it to you!
    (Recall Willow???)

    0
    #140584

    Heebeegeebee BB
    Participant

    Wow, you pulled the willow-trigger…nicely done!
    My Siva-lingams will toast her shellindras!
    and I still can invoke a Tantric Vajra as a last resort.
    Man, My aura just cleared the building…sorry!

    0
    #141845

    Pom
    Participant

    Dilbert Cartoon Please

    0
    #141850

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    TQM is  a  philosopy and  concept,SS is  a  methodology with  statistical  rigour,intead of  PDCA there  is  the  DMAIC cycle,instead  of  CS we  use VOC. 

    0
    #142719

    vishwakarma
    Member

    hi william,
    i am student in sweden and working on tqm .
    if u can please help me by providing some information on it.
    thanks and bye,
    sandeep
     

    0
    #142725

    anon
    Participant

    Elbrin,
    Ignorant personal attack through anonymity is the way this forum operates.  There are much more professional six sigma forums available on the net.

    0
    #143368

    Fish
    Participant

    I was in TQM as well as Six Sigma
    Basically both program are applying more or less same methodology. Bottomline want to see result. To me, TQM are more customer satisfaction focus and do not provide a systematic procedure for problem solving. Usually TQM apply small group activities and most the time only target for current problem solving. Whereas, Six Sigma is more profit oriented, all improvement project turn on is expecting to give impact to the bottom line company benefit. i.e “profit”. Six Sigma procedure is more systematic which I like it very much. If you apply Six Sigma DMAIC methodology on current problem solving, then, you will not see the different between TQM and Six Sigma, but when we come to breaktrhough improvement, you will the different. I am currently writting my PhD thesis regarding application of Six Sigma in high level menagement practice. For those who wish to deploy Six Sigma in your organization, pls feel free to contact me. I welcome the opportunity to work together.e-mail : [email protected]

    0
    #143925

    KASHU
    Participant

    pls send me a reply.

    0
    #143929

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    TQM is  a  fuzzy huge  concept,SS is target-oriented  methodology (project-wise).

    0
    #146989

    laila ali
    Participant

    i have forign body in my abdomin. if you are take of that , please send an email , i will send email with my whole reports and tests investegations. please reply my email soon.

    0
    #146991

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    What  you  are  talking  about Laila?This  is  not  a  medical site?

    0
    #146997

    Pipkin
    Participant

    SS = 80% TQM + 10% Harry’s statistical crap + 10% Harry’s marketing BS.

    0
    #148706

    Doc Hollywood
    Participant

    I have an MBA in TQM/SPC and a PhD on organizational
    management and leadership and the basic difference I have seen
    between the two is that Six allows for more management
    governance in the process whereas TQM is heavy in statistics. With TQM, the numbers are the primary focus when obtaining zero
    defects. TQM also requires management to address the reality of
    hard data over politics and this is where many executives get their
    feelings hurt when their view of reality isn’t backed up by hard
    data.In essence 6 is more QUAL/QUAN whereas TQM is heavy QUAN.
    TQM is VERY, sometimes overtly SPC heavy and face it, even those
    who majored in stats often wonder why they did.

    0
    #148708

    Doc’s little smarter Buddy
    Participant

    How incredibly wrong for a PhD.   It must have been from a very non-rigorous program.   
     
    TQM’s failing was that it was primarily theory and no process – a lot of well intentioned alignment with customer needs but not enough process to make it happen.  
     
    Six Sigma was a natural evolution adding project management, step-wise analytical problem solving and statistically-based mathematical application to the well intended customer focused theory.
     
    Kind Sir, me thinks thou art more Hollywood than Doc…      

    0
    #148716

    Darth
    Participant

    Makes my program look rigorous, wouldn’t you say.

    0
    #148920

    Doc H’s little buddy
    Participant

    As much as I hate to say it, yes it does.   
     
    But then you might (or might not, as the case might be) want to get into a discussion of applied programmatic rigor and begin to address the question of whether or not even a normally rigorous program might occasionally become diluted and therefore academically adulterated via it’s ongoing linkage to one of the true giants in a particular field who’s well past his contributory prime, subsequently failing to apply requisite intellectual and analytical critique to the work of those under his tutelage.    
     
    While that might occur in some even closely related fields, it would certainly not have been the case with Operations Research because giants such as Charles W. Churchman (as a somewhat randomly picked example), even when getting on in years remained not only sharp as the proverbial tack but didn’t get lost in the typical rebuffing crankiness of some aging pioneering intellects. 
     
    Of course your logical counter to that would be to question the viability and appropriateness of a field-furthering pioneer’s habitually and unkindly suffering no fools versus habitually and kindly suffering fools, and I would suppose it entirely depends upon whether or not categorically you’d have had to have been suffered.      

    0
    #148921

    The Ancient Mariner
    Member

    Oh! the joy of Lancaster’s equations – the reds versus the blues!

    0
    #148926

    Doc H’s little buddy
    Participant

    Multiple eigenvalues and forum kill rates, kind like predicting in a Stan/Joe BB exchange the Joe BB survival rate, actually not too much like that at all with the kill rate approaching if not already at 1.0 – circulant matrices not withstanding.       
     

    0
    #148929

    Darth
    Participant

    Wow Dr. Vinny, your recent posts have been really over the top.  Glad to see you are back in form…..and doing the early bird special on the egg nog.

    0
    #148932

    Markert
    Participant

    You have missed the very essence of TQM
    “With TQM, the numbers are the primary focus when obtaining zero defects.”
    TQM is definitely NOT about reducing defects.  TQM focusses on reducing VARIATION.
    Defects relate to the spec. As Bill Smith said 13 years ago, you can place spec limits anywhere you like, as a way to cut defects.

    0
    #155382

    Schuette
    Participant

    TQM is about quality regardless of cost, Six Sigma is about quality to reduce cost.  These two philosophies could not be more opposed initially but complementary when applied in sequence.  Deming said shut down the line if poor quality is discovered – cost (sometimes emense cost).  Six Sigma gets you to a spot where you can quantify cost savings with the inference that quality will also result.  Kinda counter intuitive.  GE has had success with six sigma because they had quality and wished to see if they could maintain that level of quality in a more ‘lean’ environment.  Simpler and fewer processes are easier to accomplish with a quality result.  In my opinion, TQM first to acheive quality and Six Sigma next to maintain and streamline the processes that produce a quality product and reduce cost.  TQM is the rigor Six Sigma the application of lean and cost reduction to an already rigorous process.

    0
    #158761

    Chugh
    Participant

    Can any one let me know which hospital in India have successfully implemented Six Sigma?
    I am told by many Six Sigma consultants that it is a failure in Healthcare – how far this is true? and will it survive in Indian healthcare scenerio, where basic management and business infrastructrue is not in place. Indian healthcare is still people driven, yet to shift towards process driven – Performance driven is still a dream…. any one would take this and respond.
     
    rgds
     
    Manish  

    0
    #158763

    Anand
    Participant

    I had couple of discussions about deployment of Six Sigma at Moolchand Hospital in Delhi, unfortunately the thing didnt work out. In my opinion Indian hospitals are looking forward to implement Six Sigma but as of now I dont think any of them has successfully implemented it.
    Still, it was good to see a dedicated team for Quality working hard to get their ISO certifications at Moolchand.

    0
    #158788

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Manish,
    There is a sistersite to this site that is entirely dedicated to healthcare. If you look at the winners of last years WCBF Global Award winners you will find that there were several healthcare (hospitals) involved in the competition and some winners as well. The industry has nothing to do with the success of the deployment.
    If it is working in some places and not in others and your consultants are telling you it isn’t working then you should probably question why those consultants would choose to take that portion of the market off the table as potential clients. I would be more inclined to believe that they have such a narrow bandwidth of application that they just can’t figure out how to make it work.
    Good luck

    0
    #158793

    Chugh
    Participant

    Thanks for your response Anand,
    Can you please call me if possible on +91 9820520303
    We can discuss some issues in healthcare at length.
    rgds
     

    0
    #160073

    Khare
    Member

    How are you.
    I have left Fariyas to join Mayfair Banquets and we are today having the annual sales meet of Ispat Dolvi at our premises.
    My ID is [email protected]
    Sumit

    0
    #186260

    nggf
    Participant

    goooooooooooooood

    0
Viewing 93 posts - 101 through 193 (of 193 total)

The forum ‘General’ is closed to new topics and replies.