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Student introduction to Quality

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  • #37039

    porpon
    Participant

    Hi,
    Is Six Sigma a good way to introduce students (assuming never have any professional quality control experience) to a world of qualities? Suppose there is a way to involve students into an actual project.
    I thougth SS is a good way because SS use maths, and that allow student to really ‘see’ numbers and improvement, ie. saving cost. Math makes Quality control become more ‘tangible’ rather just learn about concept and take test. And also it involves alot of team work (crucial skill in work force). I think most college student can handle Greenbelt statistic, and Black belt is the extension of that. That’s why I thougth SS is good place to really dig into quality control process.
    Any thought?
    Porpon

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    #108280

    RubberDude
    Member

    I would not go so far as to say SS is a good “introduction” to quality.  If anything, I would make it an “intermediate” course after basic quality concepts and methods.  There are too many pieces of the SS pie that have to be tasted first, such as gauging, basic statistics, statistical techniques (SPC, capability etc.), project planning, et al.  After these basics are “mastered,” I would be of the opinion that SSGB would be a good overview to give them more “real life” application knowledge.

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    #108304

    porpon
    Participant

    Hi RubberDude,
    I would disagree with that. What about a new fresh employee at GE that GE send them to get greenbelt training? I know one friend works in GE in financial unit, i bet she did not have any of those quality basics?
    What about you? Did you learn those ‘basics’ before learning greenbelt?
    What I am thinking of is sending student to get greenbelt, then work WITH BLACKBELT to get other essetial stuff, ie. ‘basics’. Blackbelt would be the one who do project planning etcc…. where greenbelt learn from that person.
    Is that a good approach?
    Porpon

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    #108315

    RubberDude
    Member

    I was learning the basics before Motorola started launching the SS project in their own organization.  When I went into GB training, I already had the concepts and tools used in my belt (no pun intended.)
    According to what you intend to do with the students you are introducing, I might agree with you.  However, if the students have a basic understanding going into it, GB training is much smoother and (in my opinion) will lead to better projects and easier transition for those going on to BB.
    My opinion, you are getting “the cart before the horse” by going to GB training then “basics”……
    But my question would be, why did you ask for our opinion if you already are in disagreement?  Sounds as if you’ve made up your mind and want someone to justify your actions.

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    #108372

    porpon
    Participant

    Hello RubberDude,
    As you say…
    “But my question would be, why did you ask for our opinion if you already are in disagreement?  Sounds as if you’ve made up your mind and want someone to justify your actions.”
    Without any emotional attached, the answer would be that you brought up important issue, which is to have basics before SS. And that is the issue that I never thought of. So once you bring it up, I think about it (and you agree), and I respond to it. I think that’s how we all live, respond to new issue. I hope that clears out misunderstanding.
    Anyway, what is the course should student take to get those ‘basic’? Which online school offers this? I don’t think it can be learnt through work experience, they just don’t teach about it. If it is cost-justifiable, then I would agree with you to be a good start. But if it is as expensive as SS GB, then I think it is ok to jump right into GB like many employees do, and guide by BB.
    Thanks!
    Porpon

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    #108383

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Porpon,
    You do appear to have your mind already made up that it is a good idea but let me give you something to consider. The basic selection process for a belt when we did the deployments at Allied and GE was to take people who were subject matter experts (SME’s) and enhance their expertise with a methodology that would help them. These were people who were recognized by management and their peers. The credibility component is critical to being able to create a solution and execute a change. People fresh out of school have no track record of success and no credibility. They can be the smartest person in the company and do wonderfully in some strile academic training program if that is what you want – a training program. There is a saying in SCUBA diving – if you train in a swimming pool you will be a great swimming pool diver. Your proposal will make great pool divers.
    If you want results you had better get you head past the academia stuff and to the implementation part of the program if you intend to produce results. If it were just the stats training you would not need a belt you would just need to hire a statistican and I think we all have been down that road a couple times.
    Any decent MBB carries a lot more than just the training they received. It is more than just stats. Stats are a hygene factor in the Hertzberg sense of the word. They have to be there but they are not what makes the difference in a world class program and a mediocre program.
    Just my opinion. Good luck.

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    #108391

    Porpon Pichanusakorn
    Participant

    Hello Mike,
    I see your point and totally agree.
    You said:
    “If you want results you had better get you head past the academia stuff and to the implementation part of the program if you intend to produce results.”
    And that is true. Perhaps I did not mention this in this post. But if you look at my other SS topics, I did mention clearly is to use the model of get GB training, then work with “real BB” from “actual company”. So by working with real project, the student has passes the “academia stuff” and they did “implement” it.
    Now, I think this post got confused because RubberDude introduce the idea of having quality basics before SS. So I ask him how would one get the basic?
    I would like to repeat model. I won’t send student just to go GB training course and that’s it. I would put them through non-profit or even profit-seeking companies and so that they can really do a project. And I am sure if student are willing to invest their time in GB training (which it won’t be credited to GPA), then they would have the desire to the actual project. And that is one kind of a very successful people, not: “People fresh out of school have no track record of success and no credibility. They can be the smartest person in the company and do wonderfully in some strile academic training program if that is what you want – a training program.” Remember: these students are willing to invest their own dollars, own time for no GPA result or credit hours and willing to do projects for “free”, I think that they deserve more than “fresh out of school with no track record of success.” That clearly showed the opposite.
    What do you think?
    Thanks. let’s be honest, no emotion attached.
    Porpon

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    #108394

    RubberDude
    Member

    Mike and Porpon,
    The view I have of this original post is that Porpon is suggesting taking students with no real background (SME) and throwing them into GB training as an “introduction to quality.”  My reply, while making some assumptions, is intended to guard against an all to common problem –  going right over the heads of your students.  If these students are introduced to basic statistics and other quality methods prior to going into SS training, would this not be of greater value?
    I suppose I would compare this using your scuba training as an example.  Did you not get an overview/introduction to the equipment before they strapped it on your back and threw you in the water?  And I’m not advocating that this can’t be a part of the SS training.  I guess I’m just cautious of getting trainees too deep into SS before they are ready.
    By the way, Mike…. A friend with years of diving experience did his first diving off the coast of Hawaii last year around the lava flows.  He said it was mezmorizing…..most beautiful diving he’d ever done.  Just wondered if you ever had experienced that.

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    #108397

    Mikel
    Member

    RubberDude,
    I don;t know how they did it in AR, but in FL, real men (pay attention Darth), strapped on the tanks and went into murky lakes with alligators by age 12. Of course, we were taught to swim by throwing us out of a boat.
    But alas, FL is a kinder, gentler place now full of Yankees and with a governor from Texas that is slightly smarter than his brother (I think on the likert intelligence scale that makes him a dolt). And yes now there are laws about buying air. What ever happened to natural selection?
    More seriously, yes we need to step back to basics before turning people loose thinking they have superior knowledge of quality.

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    #108399

    RubberDude
    Member

    Stan,
    Actually, in AR we did not use tanks.  We simply jumped in the muddy water of the local creek and held our breath while our dad’s held us under yelling “did you find him yet?” in reference to our search in the holes, sunken hollow logs, and indentations for 30 + lb catfish.  The practice, commonly known as “noodling” or “hogging” did not include gators in my youth (but now does thanks to our Cajun neighbors to the south.)  However, the occasional Cottonmouth was brought to the surface, to which the father would respond with a loud string of profanities, monsoon like splashing, and a climb up a 12 foot mud-slick bank in 34.5 milliseconds falling in front of 3-8 beer swilling “friends” who were, by this time, rolling on the ground with laughter.  Then, the noodler would notice that his catch was NOT a flathead, and throw the confused snake onto the bank in the midst of the aforementioned “cronies.”  This would cause mass confusion reminiscent of the Keystone Cops movies.
    Successful captures would entail reaching into the fish’s mouth, grabbing his tonsils, and holding on for dear life.  If you’ve ever seen the Professional Bull Riders on ESPN, those guys are merely in training for hogging catfish.
    And I think all the Yankees in Florida are moving back to Chicago and NY because of all the hurricanes…. LOL
    (Thanks for the backup….)

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    #108401

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Rubberdude,
    I understood your position very clearly and I agree with you. Teaching some improvement methodology to someone who has never seen anything work correctly let alone try to figure out if it is broken is going to produce minimal results and maximum confusion. We had Wave 2 of the Allied Automotive deployment in 95 was primarily people hire (with experience) and several had their first day in the classroom. They considerably under performed Wave 1.
    My daughter and I learned to dive doing beach dives in Mexico. Lived on the beach for about 10 days in a tent and dove all day long. Never any panic when we hit the ocean because that is how it has always been.
    I dove Kaui for a couple weeks. The lavav flows are pretty spooky at first when you are used to reefs with lots of coral and vegetation. There is a place called the airport (underwater) where there are lots of turtles. Great dive.
    Regards,
    Mike

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    #108402

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    RubberDude,
    We were having a nice peaceful morning and you had to bring the PBR into it. You are talking athletes with skills. The guys I have seen noodling are anything but athletes and with diminished capacity – other wise why would you be willing to blindly reach into a bunch of tree roots, stick your hand in a fishs mouth grab him by his gills and try to drag him out – and all we have is cottonmouths – no gators.
    Swimming with the gators is bad enough.
    regards,
    Mike

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    #108403

    RubberDude
    Member

    Mike,
    Just to clarify…. That part of the post was directed more at Porpon…. I hope he picked up that post.  I was attempting to emphasize your comments.
    I friend has started dating a guy who is a fresh water diver who spear fishes.  It’s got my interest up in taking up the sport.  One of those things on my “Krispy Kreme bag” list of things to do.

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    #108404

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Porpon,
    I am having some mixed emotions on this. Everytime we are working issues with a customer and some jaded “experienced ” guru leans back in their chair and says “we tried that back in 52 and it didn’t work.” I want to snatch them up by the scruff of the neck and throw them out of the room (can’t do that either). The mixed emotion is because I am starting to feel like I may be giving you one of those jaded responses. If I am I apologize.
    We have been down this road and there seems to be a couple problems. The students have no context – actually experienced people struggle with it. You see it on here all the time “We are different. Those tools don’t apply.” It is easier than saying “help me. I don’t understand.”
    There will be a time when the implementation of a solution witll fall on its butt due to lack of credibility. I don’t see a way around that.
    You seem committed to your plan. Think it through and try to anticipate the issues (sounds like an FMEA). We are all just giving you are views and they are basically worth what you are paying for them.
    Good luck. Let us know how it works out.

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    #108405

    Mikel
    Member

    RubberDude was just trying to bait the professional cowboys of Six Sigma, Reigle and company. We have not had any interesting nuggets of wisdom from him lately you know. 

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    #108406

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    RubberDude,
    It is a wonderful world under water. No cell phones, no email and nobody talking to you for about an hour. It seems to be the last peaceful spot left.
    If you like noodling, fresh water will be boring (the occasional gator gets you heart beating until you find out they aren’t that interested in you as long as you don’t step on them). Try salt water where occasionally you are not at the top of the food chain (unless you are a vegetarian then you are used to it). When you get used to that then you night dive. There are those infrequent random moments where you aren’t sure how it will turn out. As Patrick Swayze says “It’s a killer rush.”
    You need to get that one out of the bag soon.
    Regards,
    Mike

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    #108407

    RubberDude
    Member

    Ah, I do have agree with you.  I have spent a total of 9 seconds (3 rides at 3 seconds each) on the back of an 1,800 lb T-bone before I came to my senses and decided to leave that to the real men.  Of course, this was when I was much younger and thinking with the part of my body that was trying to impress those cute barrel racers in those skin tight Wranglers with their names on the back of their belts.
    As for the noodling, I’ve seen 85 lb teenagers up to their elbows with a 65 lb flathead, and it did resemble a PBR ride in the water……..

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    #108408

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Stan,
    Sorry about that. I missed the subliminal stuff.
    Still a card carrying member.

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    #108410

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    RubberDude,
    I did it at an amature level for seven years. You wake up one morning in a hospital with a fractured skull and eyesocket, busted nose, stiches in your eye and the bones from you nose stiking through your skin and you look in the mirror and go “WTF are you doing?”
    In our younger and gentler days we could tell if the Wranglres fit right when they had a dime in their pocket and you could tell if it was heads or tails. As far as their name it was to much information. (Thank god those days are over but I wouldn’t trade them for anything)
    Most of the people I see noodling around here look like Larry the Cable Guy. One of those little one may be fun to watch.
    Back to my western days: Congratulations to my daughter Lacey who’s horse “Classey” won World Champion in two amateur classes this week (maybe more by now) and can be seen on http://www.Bepetton.com. (under fillies) We are proud of you. (thats not spam she doesn’t do Six Sigma)
    Good luck
     

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    #108411

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Stan,
    Just an FYI. That thing you showed me about blowing air in the BC, throwing it in the ocean and putting it on in the water. It fraks out the Dive Masters, but it works.
    Regards,
    Mike

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    #108412

    RubberDude
    Member

    OK Mike,
    The guy in the red suit in the pics of Classy looks out of place…….
    My fiance’s best friend made it into the state barrel racing finals this year (first time and she’s 40.  Her 17 y/o daughter is 4 places ahead of her in the standings….) and we’re going down this weekend to watch her run.  And yeah, I remember the Wrangler dime check……..

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    #108413

    Mikel
    Member

    Hey, what do the dive masters know anyway?
    I must admit I keep a dive log these days which seems pretty NVA, but did it to get a PADI masters certification. Got 1,242 hours logged. NITROX is my new toy. Get better grouper deep and the lobster are more plentiful too. Fewer dive masters down there too.

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    #108414

    Joy Cowling
    Participant

    Mike,
    Congrats to your daughter.  Classy is beautiful.  Thanks for sharing the website. :)Joy

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    #108417

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    RubberDude,
    I don’t have a clue who he is but I can’t say much (for once in my life) because he could be the President of the association or something.
    Have you caught Ron White “I had the right to remain silent but I didn’t have the ability.”
    Congrats on the barrel racing success – you could have a great weekend. Those were simpler times.

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    #108418

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Joy,
    Thank you.
    We have missed you. I lost your email in one of my many cyber melt downs. We need to catch up. Please send it to [email protected].
    Australia was muy bien?
    We are headed back to Africa so I probably won’t get back to you until Monday.
    Regards,
    Mike

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    #108419

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Stan,
    It is only the idea that control who does and who does not dive. The look on their face when you thrw it in is worth the emotional spike you have to listen to.
    Between the Citizen watch and a cyber log it has gotten much easier. Nitrox is great – we do 2 deep (relatively) dives in the morning and switch to nitrox in the afternoon and at night. Then we switch to tequila or rum (no more diving). A formula for a good nights sleep.
    Regards

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    #108421

    RubberDude
    Member

    Yeah, it will be a good weekend.  The Southern Council Federation of Fly Fishers Conclave is this weekend.  We’re splitting time between fly fishing and rodeo.  “It don’t get no better’n this!!”

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    #108426

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    RubberDude,
    I am jealous. My weekend is that maraton flight from Atlanta to Joburg. Have a great weekend.
    Regards

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    #108433

    RubberDude
    Member

    What… about a 22 hour flight?  I remember long distance travel to exotic places only to find the veiw from my hotel room was of the hotel across the street…. and was stuck in the hotel 22 hours a day….Leaving only two hours to “see the sights”….. which usually amounted to back alleys full of winos, beggars, street urchins, and panhandlers…..
    Aaaaahhh…. how I yearn for those days….. NOT!!!!!

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    #108436

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    RubberDude,
    They tell me it is about 17 hours – still a long time.
    The great part is the accomadations are spectacular and South Africa is a very exciting place right now. The environment around the mine is very dynamic. It is that little twist that is always there on each deployment that makes one just a little different from the next.
    We have some serious fly fishing down there as well.
    Regards

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    #108437

    Joy Cowling
    Participant

    Australia was muy MUY Bien.  I fell in love with Sydney.
    I’ll send you an email so we can catch up.
    Joy

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    #108438

    RubberDude
    Member

    Yeah, in fact one of the top casters in the world is from SA.  Of course, my dream would be to fish Ireland or Scotland…. Opting for Scotland splitting time between fishing and golf……

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    #108442

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Joy,
    Fantastic. Looking forward to hearing about it.
    Regards,
    Mike

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    #108443

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    RubberDude,
    Take a look at southern Chile. Cold water, big fish and very few people.
    Tight lines.

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    #108449

    RubberDude
    Member

    Hmmmmm…. sounds like more than my 4 wt might be able to handle….. but does sound very interesting.  Thanks.
    “And if ye angler take fysshe;surely thenne is there noo manmerrier than he is in his spyryte.”Dame Juliana Berners,The Boke of St. Albans [1496]
    “Fur of hare’s ear, wing of duckTail of deer, and neck of cock,Wound and spun on hook of steelFool the fish my fly surreal.”- Agust Gudmundsson

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    #108459

    Darth
    Participant

    Try snorkeling at Walker’s Cay with the 100 sharks circling below looking up and commenting how much you look like a turtle.  Me I preferred to put on the tank and get in the midst of them.

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    #108493

    SPF Diver
    Member

    How about underwater spelunking?  Domestic, dangerous and the dark unknown. . .
     

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    #108499

    JJmcd
    Participant

    But alas, FL is a kinder, gentler place now full of Yankees and with a governor from Texas that is slightly smarter than his brother (I think on the likert intelligence scale that makes him a dolt). And yes now there are laws about buying air. What ever happened to natural selection?
    Wow a “likert intelligence scale”… huh…..anyway,  the deceitful practice of reification of intelligence shows up again. If a Governor from Texas and the President of the U.S are “doltish” with the President being the least smartest, I wonder how, you an internet forum drone, can comment on someone else’s alleged intelligence score. 
    Man what a joke…….keep peddling your nonsense
     
     

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    #108944

    Pinoyako
    Participant

    I don’t know why there should be a big fuss as to how to properly train students in quality.  We simply ask our students to apply the 7 tools of SPC in a real company and to come up with concrete recommendations on how to improve quality.  In these projects, they come to realize that quality improvement is not just statistics and other theories, they also find out that implementation is tough and requires you to understand the process.  IMHO, I’d encourage students to use the 7 tools because they’re simple, yet effective, and they equip them for basic quality improvement work.  The use of DOE and other tools would follow.
    If you want to see sample student papers, please feel free to e-mail me at [email protected].

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