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Summit kudos.

Six Sigma – iSixSigma Forums Old Forums General Summit kudos.

This topic contains 79 replies, has 26 voices, and was last updated by  Darth 10 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #51685

    GB
    Participant

    Kudos to Mike C., Janeane, Jessica, Mike M., Carlos and the rest of the Isixsigma/CTQ gang for an outstanding summit!   
    My hats off also, to the “Usual Suspects” who added some cayenne to the recipe!
    Number one takeaway:   Richard Willett’s (NewPage Corp) culture-changing act of making GB a coveted, competitive phasegate to their bonus structure.
    I really like it.
     

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    #179795

    Nolan
    Participant

    HB – what format of GB does Willett use? There has been significant variance presented in another string – from 5 days to 11 days I believe.

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    #179796

    Darth
    Participant

    I second HeeBee’s kudos. Here are the details:1. Congrats to all the companies who competed and those that won. Shows what leadership and commitment can do.
    2. Congrats to Stan for being the most Prolific Poster….big DUH!!! Stan was not around to pick up his award so Carnell accepted on his behalf. Mike tracked Stan down at the 15th Street Precinct. As a result, Stan’s true identity is still unknown.
    3. Congrats to Real Mike for winning the undeserved…I mean well deserved award as the Most Helpful Poster. Unfortunately, Mike had to surrender his award at the end of the day as a result of obliterating a participant for asking what he thought was a dumb question. Mike explained that he was just answering on behalf of Stan and begged to keep the award. Fake Mike is still deciding whether to let him or not.
    4. Stevo in person is as flaky as Stevo online. HeeBee was paranoid about protecting his identity so he didn’t wear his name badge and the darn bag over his head kept getting in the way of his eating. His true identity remains unknown. Since I didn’t win anything and Carnell refused to accept it on my behalf anyway, I still remain just an online icon.
    5. Congrats to the Smith family for Bill’s induction to the SS Hall of Fame. His daughter gave a short and touching acceptance speech.
    6. Sally, you are correct. Lots of money has been spent on arm candy and it is likely more will be forthcoming in the near future.
    7. Finally, thanks to Fake Mike and his terrific staff for putting on a first class session and outstanding experience from the speakers, venue, food, drinks, networking all the way to the Cuban cigars.

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    #179797

    Carnell’s Muse
    Participant

    Darth,Mike certainly deserved his award and I am proud to admit that I am his inspiration and the reason he is so successful. I hope that you and the others at the Summit appreciate how I dressed him up and how handsome he looked today. I hope to continue inspiring him to excel so he can save the Six Sigma industry from “dilution pollution”.

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    #179798

    GB
    Participant

    Darth, Muse,
    Very eloquent!
    I finally had enough of the paper sack… now I can eat!
    phew!

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    #179799

    GB
    Participant

    Oh yeah,
    That guy’s question was dumb.  He was fuming…completely butthurt.   Ironic, since the q had to do with Consultant’s “sensitivity” to cultures…
    Buck up, bucko!   It’s about bottom line, disruptive, tectonic-plate-shattering improvements, not passing woobies and warm-milk sippy cups out to your target audience.  Definitely the “B-team”.
    Also, The good Dr Rayl’s use of Machiavelli…right on!

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    #179804

    Singh
    Participant

    Could you please share the dumb questiion with those of us who were stuck at work in Cali? :)

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    #179810

    CT
    Participant

    When ever I’ve seen GB part of a bonus/promotion structure all that it’s engendered is people doing GB not to learn but to get a tick and projects being shoe horned into a structure which was not required making them last twice as long as required. All this leading to lots of GB but not much culture and in the end synasism.
    Can you say how Richard Willett’s got round these problems.

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    #179816

    Darth
    Participant

    Question was to a panel of Carnell, Gary Cone and Dr. Martin Rayl. Questioner was from healthcare and wanted to know how consulting companies select people to fit into the culture of their clients. Seems that the questioner’s organization had some consultants come in who offended some people via his interactions and who did not know the ins and outs of their business. The always helpful and sensitive Carnell jumped on the guy and said his consultants are there to create quantum change not to hold hands and sing campfire songs….I’m paraphrasing. He said that the questioner needs to quit being so sensitive and focus on what the consultant is trying to teach the organization and should worry more about implementing change, and not petty issues such as jokes. Gary supported the notion and Marty suggested that maybe some clients are not worth doing business with. Although not on the panel, I chimed in from the audience that the difference between small independent consulting companies and Giganto type consultants is that Giganto caters to these emotional needs often to the detriment of the deployment by sending in people that may fit in better and not make waves rather than the aggressive, assertive type that, while they may piss someone off, have the depth of knowledge, experience and passion to cause breakthrough improvement. That is when Mike was asked to give back his Most Helpful award. Five minutes later Fake Mike closed the conference. Nice way to end a couple days of very productive exchanges. Nice going Carnell!!!!!

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    #179818

    Carnell’s Muse
    Participant

    Darth,
    I was there during the exchange although you don’t know who I am. Mike was fabulous in his reply and although I have been coaching him on holding back a bit you saw how well that has been working. While I agree to a point with Mike, Gary and Marty, the guy asking the question has a point. If the consultant on site is offensive and turning people off, it is human nature to shut down regardless the value of the message. I guess the consultant has to walk a fine line between a scorched earth approach and being so vanilla that he or she is ineffective. Small consultancies may be more independent and tell the client to go to hell. The big ones, as you pointed out, may have to kiss butt a bit more because of visibility. Anyway, I thought Mike was charming in his reply despite the noticeable intake of breath from the audience.

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    #179819

    Joe the Plummer
    Participant

    This reply answers a lot of my questions about a lot of the posters on this site. When answering questions on the stats side of SS they’re great but on the softer side their people skill seems to be completely lacking.
    In what way is offending people going to bring about change or get buy in to a program and to keep change moving when you’re not there. 
    By what you say the panels replies were everything bad about the world of SS a group of people who always think they know best, are patronising and have minimal people skills. I thought this was their on line personas but it’s nice to know that it isn’t.
    Just my 2 cents worth.

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    #179821

    Jered Horn
    Participant

    You know…
    Some people have very effective “people skills” when they scream, yell, and throw chairs.  Of course, it’s not called “softer side” or “people skills”…it’s called MOTIVATION.  And it works!!!
    Personally, I am not that kind of person (and don’t think it is always the best strategy).  But I have great admiration for those that are good at it.
    And I have very little admiration for people that use “I was offended” as an excuse not to do the right thing (in any situation).
    I don’t believe it’s true that the entire world of Six Sigma is “a group of people who always think they know best, are patronising and have minimal people skills”.  I’m quite sure the distribution of knowledge, condescention, and people skills in the world of Six Sigma would all pass the test for normality.
    Just my opinion.

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    #179823

    Joe the Plummer
    Participant

    Maybe it’s a conutry thing but over in the UK shouting, throwing things and the like doesn’t get results or at least not the ones intended.
    I’ve realised that I didn’t make myself fully clear in this. The main problem I had with this story was the presumption that the customer was wrong and the consultant was correct. This just stinks of closing ranks which is never a good thing.
    I also didn’t say that all the people are like this but it’s the preception people have of process improvement people and I think that’s because of the type of person it can attract.

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    #179824

    John L
    Participant

    Joe, I agree with you. So much machoism in this garbage. Small consulting firms are small because they take the approach advocated by Carnell. And, little is accomplished by yelling at intelligent adults. I’ve always been told and have validated through experience – you get a whole lot more done by pulling people not pushing them. This is all so childish & the hero worship of MC is crazy.

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    #179826

    Jered Horn
    Participant

    This is an interesting discussion…
    I wouldn’t say you guys are wrong about most of what you’re saying.  However, saying that Six Sigma is garbage is wrong (in my opinion anyway).
    When I’m looking for positive characteristics in a leader, I think passion, confidence, and wisdom are extremely important.  I imagine most people would agree with that (even “intelligent adults”).  Can you accept that different leaders display those characteristics in different ways?
    To tell the truth, in most situations, I prefer to be the leader.  I’m not saying I’m a good leader that always has the passion, confidence, or wisdom necessary…just saying it’s just part of my personallity to be a leader rather than a follower.  However, when I do find myself in a “follower” role, I usually go “kicking and screaming”.  Raised voices and kicks in the butt are usually necessary.  And, you know what?  It doesn’t offend me.  It does bother me, though.  I don’t like criticism.  Therefore, I become motivated to do better next time and earn myself praise from that same leader.
    I know everybody isn’t like me.  But everybody doesn’t fall for that soft/”pull instead of push” stuff either.
    Again…just my opinion.

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    #179827

    Venerable Bede
    Member

    Ditto hb. What I find so impressive is that the planning and execution belies the fact that this was their first event. isixsigma is a primary information gateway for the industry so they live and breathe the six sigma market. Their unequaled network of real practitioners was on display this week, creating the best conference I have seen for exchanging ideas with substance. There is only one other conference that even comes close – ISSSP – and the others – WCBF and IQPC – are hollow shells in comparison to these two.

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    #179828

    John L
    Participant

    Horn, I agree with your first two points however yelling at adults is NEVER called for unless you are at a sporting event or a crime scene. If you can’t convince someone through logic, reason, passion, example – then move on. You’re not equipped to lead. Yelling is….childish.

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    #179830

    Venerable Bede
    Member

    As a witness to the question, the respnse by Mike, and now the backlash it seems to me that this reaction on the part of some is illustrative.
    It is very easy for some to confuse a resistance to hearing the truth with the inability to deliver it tactfully.
    The funny thing is that the audience reacted to Mike’s response and not the question itself. Mike had little choice but to respond as he did. The question was stupid. Mike would have been dishonest, insincere, and patronizing to respond differently. Mike did not answer as he did to demean the individual in an effort to amuse the audience. He chastised the question itself and in doing so he told the truth, clearly and directly. It was the best response for the person asking and the audience. To suggest that Mike should have obscured the truth by tactfully protecting the dignity of the asker is to lack the intellectual honesty to admit the question was ill-conceived.

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    #179833

    Mikel
    Member

    I demand a recount. 90% of my posts are three words or less.We should go on word or letter count. You, Mike and Robert Butler
    would all smoke me.However it was nice of Mike to bail me out.

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    #179834

    Darth
    Participant

    Guess you made it back to Chez Stan. Hope everyone is feeling better.

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    #179835

    Mikel
    Member

    As has already been pointed out, he was answering for me in my
    absence.And no, I am not giving back the mousepad.

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    #179836

    Mikel
    Member

    Everyone is feeling much lighter.

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    #179837

    Darth
    Participant

    No where did I say that Mike or Gary yelled at the questioner. Nor did they or will any consultant advocate screaming, yelling, throwing chairs, swearing or slamming down envelopes as a way to motivate a client. The question dealt with the concept of cultural fit between consultant and client and seemed to infer that the issue was at least equal to the competency of the assigned consultant. I think it is fair to say that to do what is in the best interest of the client’s deployment it is often necessary to push and in doing that, people might get defensive and even offended. Regardless of great interpersonal skills and reasoning, people are often threatened by the change that the consultant is bringing. The Panelist’s point was that client leadership sometimes has to step in and tell his/her people to grow up, stop focusing in on silly stuff and do what what has to be done. I have seen too many instances where consultancy leadership will defer to client rants rather than push back and hold tough and put things in their proper perspective. Finally, no one erected any statues to Mike except when he and Stan cruised down to SoBe on Wed. night.

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    #179845

    Tbill
    Member

    Mike Carnell’s bravado almost brought the conference to an end. Luckily, it picked up after that questions and Dr. Rayl reigned in Gary and Mike (mostly Mike…why was Gary so quiet?…very unlike him!)
    I want to see the same panel next year, however…we need to get submissions from the community betwen now and then — so iSixSigma can select the best questions — and their answers need to be streamed live on the web!

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    #179849

    Darth
    Participant

    I like the idea of live streaming. Maybe somebody would have paid to see Dr. Harry and his rambling rewriting of the history of six sigma. There would have to be major efforts at lighting to keep the reflection from all the diamonds blinding the viewing audience. If I were not there, I would have paid handsomely to see EC parading around showing off the best results of modern re-constructive surgery. Possibly Fake Mike can consider streaming video for some of the panel discussions and keynotes. Gary was quiet but Stan was unexpectedly absent. Looks like he was a no show once again, just like the great Phoenix debate. Notice that every time Dr. Harry is present Stan is absent. Makes you wonder…….

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    #179850

    Nolan
    Participant

    Not a chance Darth…Harry clearly has better things to do than post here; as in Ms. Candy.

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    #179851

    GalileoLytton
    Participant

    I thoroughly enjoyed the first iSixSigma Live conference but thought Carnell’s response was incredibly immature and warrants an apology.  I thought FakeMike made a good attempt to save but should never have been put in that spot in the first place.  It makes me sick when so called Six Sigma gurus don’t even have the courtesy to listen to the Voice of the Customer.  What a crock of lip service.

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    #179852

    Anonymous

    Hey Darth,How come you, Darth, and Richard Schroeder share the same gray profile?Nice Kirlian Mike …Cool photo Gary …Cheers,
    Andy

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    #179856

    SS
    Member

    You have told me to forget SS and to ignore this Forum!
    What happened to convince you to come back?
    Cheers

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    #179857

    SS
    Member

    I have a great respect for Mike Carnell.You better listen to his comments to add value !

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    #179861

    Anonymous

    I don’t remember anyone using the handle SS …

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    #179863

    Darth
    Participant

    Les,maybe so….but think of this. Why didn’t Stan pick up his award??? Why did Carnell do it for him??? Given the spark of hostility shown by Mike, possibly Mike’s alter ego showed through and he is really Stan. Makes some sense.

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    #179865

    Darth
    Participant

    Andy,I was prepared to out myself should I have won either of my richly deserved awards. But alas, it was not to be and thus I remain the enigma I am and probably keep my job.

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    #179866

    Bill M
    Participant

    That’s right – because he’s done 100’s of deployments and is in the top 3 in the world.
    PS: What does that tell you about the population being considered?

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    #179867

    Darth
    Participant

    Ok Bill, good news. I spent some time talking to Mike about the issue you refer to. Here is what I took away so you can move on.1. Mike has been in the business a long time, is experienced, is knowledgeable and has credibility in the industry and respect of his peers.2. He agrees that there is no measure or ranking that is agreed upon by the industry although he is considered to be a well known and well respected member of the business.3. He has had “scores” of successful deployments, not “hundreds”.4. He cares about what is going on in the business and strives to share his knowledge and experience on the Forum and is working hard to see that the industry stays vibrant, viable and relevant.5. He is a helluva nice guy with a great sense of humor despite his obvious spelling handicaps.I hope that answers all your issues.

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    #179868

    Quality Group
    Participant

    Bill,Does your employer approve of your coming on here to act this way?

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    #179869

    Gary Cone
    Participant

    Tbill,Thanks for your concern about my quietness, I answered the
    questions in an appropriate way and as complete as I thought the
    venue accommodated. I’ve never been one to try to hog the stage.As far as the discussion on Mike, this is simple. If you want
    someone to coddle you and make you feel good about not
    accomplishing something, Mike’s not your guy. If you want honesty
    and great guidance, he is your guy. Depends on what your
    enterprise is trying to accomplish. I can tell you that the most
    successful changes I’ve seen demanded such honesty.To clarify the question, the gentleman asked how consulting
    companies choose their consultants. He framed his question with a
    story of a consultant at his health care firm who used
    manufacturing examples and told jokes and how offended some
    were in his organization. Mike and I have seen dozens of examples
    where people use such things as an excuse to not accomplish
    anything. Mike responded to that. I answered the other question
    with how I choose consultants. I said I only hire people who I
    trained that I know how they act over an extended period of time. I
    also use Predictive Index to make sure that the person is driven by
    accomplishing hard tasks. These people will look at what’s in front
    of them and figure out how to win. I also told the gentleman I
    agreed with Mike and his organization’s being offended should not
    be used as an excuse to not move forward. Dr. Rayl added that
    some customers should be fired.I was with Mike the entire evening after the session and I will tell
    you that 100% of the comments made to him told him he was right
    and there were two people without the courage to speak directly to
    Mike that told others that he was wrong.All of the comments about yelling or whatever else are being made
    by people who were not there. No such thing happened.

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    #179870

    Ammeir Cotarica
    Participant

    A real humble great guru

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    #179871

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Darth and others in this string,Sorry for posting this under your response but it was difficult to find a spot that seems to address everyone in the string.Lewis Black does a routine about watching Janet Jackson’s Super Bowl performance and waking up the following day to discover that America had lost its mind. After reading this string it is a factor of about 1,000,000 smaller but has to be a similar feeling.As Both Darth and Gary have stated there was no yelling nor throwing of furniture. The question from the audience was concerning sorting out consultants because someone had hired a consultant that had told some joke that “in their culture” was considered offensive. My response began with “Are you serious?” followed by some comments the gist of which was you are being asked to improve your business and you are being distracted by this, you need to do your job. I have made similar comments with regard to the soft culture stuff for years.First let’s go to the comment concerning listening to the Voice of the Customer. Gary Cone, Marty and I went to South Beach Thursday evening after the conference to spend some time together after almost two decades of speaking primarily on the phone. We returned around midnight to a crowd in the bar and until about 4:30 in the morning people told me my response to the question was absolutely dead on. There were a couple negative responses, to other people than myself, primarily competing consultants concerning my etiquette and I created opportunities for those people to tell me that directly and nobody would do that. That should dispel the notion that my comment almost ended the conference.I did not see the question as stupid and at no point did I say that. I saw the question itself as offensive. Many people had paid good money in difficult times to attend a conference where they were looking for something to help them in whatever they were trying to accomplish. When someone chooses to use that time because as an adult they cannot figure out how to deal with someone who told a joke that was not necessarily offensive generally but was in their culture, it offends me that they have the audacity to use time that some one else could be using for a constructive purpose. When a person is selected to act as a change agent and they can be derailed by a joke, the probability of their success is virtually zero. It would seriously offend me if I were a member of an organization and knew that the improvement of my organization and possibly the future of my employment and consequently my families future was now firmly in the hands of someone who did not know how to deal with someone who may not be culturally as sensitive as they should be or are unaware of a particularly soft culture but does have the skill sets, since they had been retained, to assist in transforming the organization in a direction that the Leadership Team had determined the organization should go.As a share holder I would be offended that the value of my investment was now in the hands of a change agent that was derailed over a joke and wasn’t moving in a direction to improve the organization and protect my investment.Ignoring the issues of paid attendees, employees and shareholders of the organization, it is equally offensive to find someone in today’s economic conditions that is offended so easily.- 693,000 jobs lost in December – that is offensive- No National Health care – that is offensive- Bernard Madoff stealing $50 billion – that is offensive- Congress refusing to bailout AIG one week because the amount is to high and a week later approving an even larger sum – that is offensive- AIG receiving a huge bailout and taking a group to the Caribbean for a party – that is offensive- GM having the audacity to announce it will not pay its suppliers for 90 days because it has cash flow issues and that non-payment will in turn create financial crisis thousands of small business owners (and their employees) who have spent their lives building a business – that is offensiveWhen a person is at a point where they no longer have the sense to tell a consultant to not do something again and move on to the job they were paid to do then that person needs to consider that they are in the wrong job and that they are quite possibly a part of the problem.When the tittle of the conference is “Back To Breakthrough” anyone who has seriously endeavored to create Breakthrough understands that Breakthrough will create anxiety, stress and trigger emotion in an organization. There will be confrontation. Becoming debilitated by it will cause you to be ineffective at your job. Anyone with an ounce of integrity needs to step up and inform the organization they are ill equipped to do the job effectively.We have been in deployments on every continent with the exception of Antarctica. Not only do we have to learn to deal with indigenous culture and humor we frequently have to deal with strong feeling concerning being from the US. We have been paid to do a job and part of that job does not include running to the CEO sucking on our bottom lip because someone hurt our feelings. If we did that we would have been out of this business years ago. One of internal measures of success is repeat business. People who move to a different organization and rehire us to do what we did for them in a previous engagement. We have many of those simply because we refuse to be distracted by the minutia and deliver the business objective.As I stated earlier there was no throwing of furniture however I did tell a story in one session where Barbara Wheat was delivering a Workplace Organization Workshop (the original WOW) and A person who wanted to derail the class stood up and threw a chair at Barbara from the back of the room. She ducked the chair and continued to teach the class. It becomes very difficult to be sympathetic with someone who can’t deal with a joke when you have worked with people like Barbara for years.

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    #179872

    Darth
    Participant

    Mike, all I can say is WOW!!!! A lengthy, well thought out and articulated response with almost perfect grammar and spelling. Well said and well done. Guess a little S. FL sunshine and you are a new man. And no where did you slam down an envelope. That will become a classic. Darth Dog sends regards and was sorry we couldn’t all break bread…or dog biscuits…the other night. If I had any guts, I would send your response to some folks at Giganto.

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    #179875

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Darth,Thank you. Actually there is spell check on the Discussion Forum Screen today and it saved me on the issue of spelling.When I read this string this morning it was like falling down some cosmic bunny hole. Lots of talk about things that never happened. Until Gary put it up nobody (of the people who were not there) asked “what did he say?” The just went off on inane rants on something they knew nothing about. My apologies for not sticking around longer. Leaving when I did ended up being the best thing for some people in my life.I look forward to getting back to Florida seeing Ms. Darth again and hanging out in the back yard with Darth Dog while he smokes his cigar.I have spent the morning writing various letters, filing them in a notebook and stocking the little pocket with envelopes. It is my new Popeil “Mas Macho Leadership Kit.” It slices, dices and makes thousands of Julienne french fries when not being used at BOD meetings.New Darthmobile is great. Next time South Beach in the Darthmobile?

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    #179877

    Bill M
    Participant

    I’ll buy all you’ve said Darth. Just couldn’t get Chad to fess up that he stepped in it.

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    #179878

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Gary,Thank you.Hope the family is feeling better.Regards

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    #179879

    Tbill
    Member

    If everyone pays extra next year and the proceeds go to you, can we see some swearing and chair throwing! :)
    I enjoyed the session. It’s always good to see honesty on the stage, regardless of how thick or thin someone’s skin is. (If you’re skin’s not thick enough…don’t ask a question in front of the whole conference!)
    The Fake Mike C and staff did a great job through-out, including asking you guys to speak.

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    #179881

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Tbill,The iSixSigma staff did a great job and I think everyone had a good time.I would love to do this again. What I would enjoy even more is to have a format that would put Darth, Stan, Heebee, Stevo and Robert Butler up there in a way that would allow them to protect their anonymity. We all had some great discussions and I would love to see that opened up to entire audience. We can start the show with the Nicholson video clip “You want the truth?…..” Follow that with Just leave an envelope with your questions on the table were going to South Beach and we expect to see the A team here when we get back.No furniture throwing although it would be nice to set up a separate room with furniture so all the Lean Masters could go in an rearrange it when ever they were missing being at work. Private joke with Barbara Wheat – sorry about that.Better idea. How about we do iSixSigma Live on a cruise ship?Without a doubt we need more of Marty Rayl. If anyone understands empowering the workforce it was Marty and there isn’t a single person in that room that didn’t have something to learn from him.Regards

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    #179884

    Anonymous

    Mike,It’s about time someone stood up and pointed out what really is offensive …Clearly, like Mike Jeffries of Abercrombie & Fitch, you are passionate about Quality …”It’s really about shared values, we have a shared passion for quality. The people in all our businesses take huge pride in what they do ..”Quoted from: Love Thy Neighbour BBC 4, 14 OCt. 08

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    #179885

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Andy,Thank you.We have spent so much time as a society catering to every person who has their feelings hurt that we have made it impossible for anyone to have a honest discussion. If you are caught in the middle of changing something regardless of the initiative, SS or Lean or LSS or whatever, and you can’t ell the truth because someone will “tell on you”, or you won’t be politically correct then it becomes impossible to do anything to improve. This the same passive aggressive nonsense we were up to our necks in when we worked at Compaq Computer and it is like quicksand. Those are companies you just have to walk away from.Thanks for the quote. I collect them.Regards

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    #179886

    Observer
    Participant

    Mr. Carnell,I have followed this thread with some interest. Do you believe you need to make a distinction between an onsite consultant who has been offensive and one who is perceived to be offensive because he or she is saying the “tough” things? I have gotten the impression that the original question was about a consultant who may have used offensive or inappropriate humor, didn’t understand the processes involved and attempted to misapply tools and concepts. Healthcare is indeed a unique business and consideration should be given to that uniqueness. Why should a client, who is paying for the services, be forced to accept such a consultant? Certainly, I am not advocating removing the consultant because he or she “looked at me wrong” or called me out about leadership behaviors but certainly there will be instances where a swearing, hardcore manufacturing guy may just not be the best fit for all environments.

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    #179887

    Anonymous

    Mike,Yes, I agree … there are too many arty craft, limp wristed Liberals around these days. Most of them only got their positions because they couldn’t do anything useful.By the way, if you have time, do watch the video because I think it has something interesting to say about Quality.Cheers,
    Andy

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    #179888

    Observer
    Participant

    Mr. Carnell,As a follow on thought. I have seen where trainers have been asked to leave the client site. Do you need to make a distinction between the person saying the hard things and speaking the truth from those that really shouldn’t have been assigned to the client? If the trainer did not prepare and did not know the client environment. If they did not understand the client processes. If they couldn’t give examples and applications appropriate to the client. If they were not sensitive to diversity issues. If they were exceedingly boring. And a host of other reasons. Granted, the consulting company may have made a mistake with the assignment but should the client be forced or threatened to retain this person on the job? I believe this thread has been a bit unfair to the original person asking the question without first exploring whether it was due to a valid mismatch between client and consultant or as you and others have said, a cop out or a case of an over reaction and attempt at political correctness.

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    #179890

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Observer,Please don’t assume that I believe the consultant is always right. I have removed consultants from assignments. If you read Gary Cone’s post he stated we (Gary at GPS and me at CS International and previously together at SS International) only have people we have worked with extensively before we began to use them as consultants. Neither of us use consultants that are exclusively from the US. When we speak about International consultants it doesn’t mean we have an office in another country with consultants from that country as much as we may take someone from a country like Mexico and use them in South Africa. Most of our people have experience in countries outside their native countries. The biggest problem I have had is mixing accents where the class is having difficulty understanding the instructor.Before we dive into this discussion lets look at a couple things. Regardless what a customer says when they retain you the majority of the company is reticent about any change. It isn’t specific to SS as much as it is just how people behave. If a consulting company is prone to pulling consultants because of complaints (as a general practice – that was the point Dr. Ken Feldman made during the exchange) you create fear within the consultants and you create a vehicle for the passive aggressive personalities to stop the change process. Gary addressed this when he said he uses PI to get the right personalities into the class. If you find an old blog of Gary’s you will see that the highest probability of success comes from a High A, Low C and average D. When you begin a deployment the place where a consulting company can help you the least is in BB selection unless you use a tool such as PI. We just don’t know the people and can’t get to really know them well enough quickly enough to make a difference. If you want to see the level of issue that fear inside the consulting company can cause look at the way Arthur Anderson was manipulated at Enron. That is what happens when consultants become fearful of being honest.When we (Gary and I) merged Six Sigma International with Marshal Qualtec in 1998 to create Six Sigma Qualtec I met a guy named Scot Ashby. Very good curriculum developer. I had always dislikes the 1-5 smiles test at the end of a training class and tended to use only the comments about the instructor from people I had seen making a serious effort to learn the SS methodology. Scot had an interesting perspective. He used the scores to identify what he called entertainers. An instructor that was almost completely the top score. What Scot identified was true when everyone at the customer is in love with the instructor then the instructor is entertaining not teaching – but the customer (in the classroom not necessarily the business) is completely satisfied.You also need to remember there are two customers. The people in the classroom and the business. They frequently want two different things. The business is interested in business results. Depending on culture the people in the classroom can want something entirely different. In 1997, as Six Sigma International, Gary and I chose to walk away from Bombardier as a customer. The curriculum they wanted was more academic than we provided and it was a mismatch. Actually in that year we chose to walk away from more dollars in business than we booked for the year simply because we did not get the fit and a mismatch will suck resources away from a customer who is a good fit. As “Carnell’s Muse” pointed out the bigger companies have less freedom to do this because they have to cover a lot more overhead and this business tends to run negative cash flow to begin with.There has never been a single customer that does not feel they are different. Deming has listed specifically that issue in his list of “Obstacles to Improvement.” That means that this has been going on for decades. The tools in Six Sigma are not industry specific. There are not a set of statistics indigenous to health care any more than ther are tools specific to manufacturing and for that mater the manufacturing companies are believe they are different from other manufacturing companies. If there were a difference I am sure someone at Minitab would have long ago began marketing a product specific for that industry. The thought process that follows Six Sigma is not indigenous to any industry. The DMAIC thought process works where ever you operate. So the issue becomes examples. Lets go back to Deming. Again to his Obstacles to improvement. The Search for Examples he sees as people looking for ready made solutions to problems. Granted my more effective instructors can easily take any situation in a new and different business and explain the application but in truth how much effort does it take to understand that calculating and average and standard deviation with a set of health care data is no different than using data from a copper mine and data from an exhaust system manufacturer. Once you understand the idea of central tendency and dispersion most calculations relate to frequency observed and frequency expected.If the consulting company and someone who actually supports the change being driven take the time to find out what has happened, at least to my experience, the consultants is frequently dealing with some one with an agenda that is much different than the companies. If as a consultant Barbara Wheat would have run from that classroom when the guy threw the chair at her he would have gotten what he wanted. The class would have stopped and management and the union would have been involved. By managing her way through it and then putting in the hands of the union and management she got support from both.Basically when you have resistant customer, which you always do on some level, and fearful consultants the probability of success is going down. You will never completely alleviate the stress and resistance to change from the customer so you better maximize the effect of the consultant and that is by removing fear from them. How often is the customer involved in change and how often is the consultant involved in change? If you have to choose one or the other to follow (which if you have to make that choice then you have done a poor job of planning the deployment) you might want to consider the person who does it for a living.What is it about health care that you believe makes it such a different business?Just my opinion.

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    #179891

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Andy,Thank you. I will take a look.Regards

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    #179893

    Stevo
    Member

    I was in the room when this exchange took place.  Most of the fellow attendants were either mildly amused or mildly offended.  The incident has seemed to take on a life of its own.  Give it enough time and people who were not there are going to be telling the story of “this guy that insulted Mikes’ mother and Mike b!#ch slapped him”.
     
    All so very silly (and the reason I stay in this business).
     
    Stevo

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    #179894

    Observer
    Participant

    Mr. Carnell,Thank you for your thoughtful and prompt response. I agree that knee jerk removals of talented consultants will create fear in them with the result being a more pliable and probably less effective change agent. I also agree that smile sheets which are often used as indicators of customer satisfaction and trainer competency are misleading and often result in the trainer “gaming” the process to look good. This often means that they have made the class fun and easy to the detriment of real learning. Healthcare is a bit unique in that the true “customer” is not quite clear and the number of stakeholders are often larger than the usual organization. The patient may be the eventual consumer of services. The doctor is usually the “buying agent” and the insurance companies pay for things. Very competing expectations from each. If it is a public hospital then additional complexities are added. I don’t believe that there is another industry with such a matrix. But, there are plenty of processes and tons of data and thus the application of Lean and Six Sigma is very applicable. An understanding of the uniquenesses of healthcare makes it easier to explain to people in the industry who are not engineers and are usually devoid of any process thinking. Plus nurses, techs and most employees in the system struggle with statistical concepts. A bit of creativity is needed to bring it home to them. Staff doctors, on the other hand, are not usually employees of the organization and getting them involved and spending time with a deployment is a challenge. Not impossible but certainly a challenge. Finally, by the nature of the work, most folks in the business are more nurturing and less prone to throwing things at the “customer”. Thus a tobacco spitting, foul mouthed, insensitive boor, despite his or her capabilities might not be well received. Sending an Israeli consultant to work in an Arab company might not be the best fit and if it were done, one might expect some push back and concerns about cultural fit. Sometimes, you just have to think about the issue despite the capabilities of the consultant.

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    #179895

    Carnell’s Muse
    Participant

    Mike,Glad that I could be an inspiration. Happy you mentioned my name. It means a lot to me. Are you sure it is the old Mike Carnell that has been posting? The posts are as long as usual, but I miss the old rambling thoughts and frequent misspellings. You almost sound like Gary Cone now. I hope you reconsider my request to work for you again. I hope that I did not scare you away.

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    #179896

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Stevo,It does seem to have taken on a life of it’s own. Quite a surprise when I read the string. I really hope it doesn’t morph to your prediction. It seems to have taken a while to get past the hyped yelling and furniture throwing.Regards

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    #179897

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    BTW at no point did I ever consider it amusing.Regards

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    #179898

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Carnell’s Muse,You are welcome for the mention. In most instances there seems to something of value to take away from most conversations/postings. Your comments had validity.The spelling is a function of having a spell check.This string has made me pretty cautious in the sense that there is the contingent that seems to make this more of an issue than it was or should be. In terms of sounding like Gary that should be no particular surprise. He brought me into the CI business about 25 years ago and spent a lot of time introducing me to the fundamentals of the business. Our thinking is seldom different although during the session on stage there was at least one question (industry shakeout) where we were drastically different in our response. when it comes to how we do the job there are very few differences.We probably need to discuss your request. I don’t scare easily but the memory isn’t what it used to be.Regards

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    #179899

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Observer,I am glad we have found some common areas to agree to on the removal of consultants. I can’t imagine a company that would be so insensitive to send an Israeli to an Arab country although I am sure it is possible that they exist but probably not for long. In terms of a tobacco chewing, foul mouthed, insensitive boor there is at least one company out there that comes close. I have no idea how well received he is in the industry but he has been around for a long time.Actually one very good person I know has been described as a boor. They even had a person leave the classroom crying because of it. The person I am speaking of has a ton to offer anyone and as bored as I have been from time to time over the last 2 decades it has always been worth my while to stick it out and figure out what the message was regardless of the style.I think you are under estimating the complexity of most other businesses. The first thing we do on the front end of a deployment is a design session. That design session is where we are working with a team from the business and we generate a deployment plan that works for both companies. If you are only looking at the people sitting in front of you as the customer you will surely miss the mark. You need to see the customers customer at the very least. You also need to understand the interface of government agencies particularly when you are involved in the nuclear energy business, aircraft, aircraft engines, food industry, etc. All these agencies are stakeholders. Unions always become an issue. If you ignore them they can cause a lot of trouble. If you take the time to engage them they can also help you tremendously.Imagine an organization of 25,000 people who speak at least 13 different languages (one of these languages isn’t even a real language in terms of a normal language – it is completely made up but is probably the most commonly understood – Fanagalor). There are about 22,000 that work underground so getting to them takes hours and the education level varies drastically. On the surface there are hospitals so the environment you speak of is a part of the organization, there is housing , water, sewage, food, etc hat all must be provided. You complicate that with a large HIV and TB rate that is not just the people underground. At the community level there are several different tribes that have to be dealt with depending on the issue. The fact that you are producing a precious metal that sells for more an ounce than most make in a year makes the already high crime rate target your business.I don’t want to turn this into a contest but the reason the one size fits all solutions do not work is because regardless of the industry there is a solution that is a mix of common and uncommon factors. It is critical to do a serious amount of planning on the front end to do this effectively. It is what avoids the huge blunders of sending the Israeli consultant to an Arab country but it will never eliminate all the controversy that is about to happen.Trying to comprehend an entire business model is difficult but using tools at the project level such as an XY Matrix or QFD help sort through this. At the deployment level it is understanding the value stream and how you are impacting the business that will avoid people spinning off into the minutia.I am not sure we have resolved much but I do appreciate your view of the health care business and the time you took to explain it. I have a sister that is the head of nursing in a rehab center and there are definitely issues that are indigenous. There are also common processes. I have a friend who is the Director of Marketing for two hospitals. There is a common process with some of her marketing activities and there is a very unique component. The up side to what you have said is you have tons of data. There is nothing worse than losing traction on a deployment simply because you have to wait on data. If you can gain some velocity to the program it keeps people busy and not stirring up trouble. When I worked at Motorola we had a Manufacturing Manager (see the guy in Mario Perez-Wilson’s book Six Sigma) who had a sign that hung on the wall behind his desk so when you spoke to him you could see it (assuming you were of normal height). The sign read “Now that you have told me why it won’t work, tell me why it will.” It turns a lot of conversations around.Regards

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    #179902

    Venerable Bede
    Member

    Stevo:
    I concur.  Apparently people will be telling their grandchildren about this exchange years from now.
    But it seems that this one small event has overshadowed the relentless, self-aggrandizing hyperbole emanating from Dr. Harry himself.  Threatening to fire executives…..Really!?  Labeling an entire class of mid-level managers as “B”-players and telling them to go home……C’mon!?  For those that know him, this mendacity is par for the course.  Apparently, and I guess it is a good thing, not many attendees knew him very well. 
    Most everyone can agree with some of the points Dr. Harry made regarding the needed renaissance of Six Sigma Breakthrough principles to reestablish credibility for the practice, but the deceitful stories that he employed to make his points were annoying, if not dangerous.  If there should be anything coming out of the conference that deserves to be the target of mud-slinging, it should be Mikel and the sheer volume of his nauseating fabrications.

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    #179909

    Jose
    Participant

    What goes around comes around.I wonder how much money he has lost through wild speculation?

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    #179912

    Full Disclosure
    Participant

    You and Gary didn’t sell SSI to SSQ. You, Gary, Dave Dippre, John  Hathaway and Greg Brue sold SSI to SSQ. You are making it sound as if you and Gary alone owned SSI.

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    #179914

    Gary Cone
    Participant

    That is correct. Sorry for the omissions.Dave Dippre and John Hathaway continue to do fine work as they have
    since the 1980’s.

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    #179916

    Full Disclosure
    Participant

    Ha Ha Good one Gary, I give the subtlety.

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    #179920

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Full Disclosure,
    As Gary said you are correct in the ownership. If we are in full disclosure SSI still exists because it was an asset sale.
    I omitted Greg, John and Dave simply because those were names that had not been involved in the string and the last thing this string needed was more confusion. So now we have full disclosure and the clarity has not changed.
    I am not sure what you see as subtlty in Gary’s remark it seemed like a statement of fact. That is pretty clear.
    Just my opinion.

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    #179922

    Darth
    Participant

    Obviously they didn’t get as much as Harry did when they sold their business since neither Mike nor Gary were sporting an array of diamonds or arm candy.

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    #179925

    Full Disclosure
    Participant

    Let me help you with the subtlety, since it was subtle. “Dave and John are still performing well.” By making no reference to Greg, he is saying Greg isn’t performing well. A position with which few of us would take exception.

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    #179926

    GB
    Participant

    GalileoLytton,
    I wholeheartedly disagree with you.
    There is a difference between making change happen from within vs. without.
    From within, as Dart so eloquently stated, one must deal with gooey-sticky PC glurg and feelings…nature of bureaucracy.
    When a Client hires you to teach them how to fish, “butthurtedness” is a luxury and is a crutch for inactivity.   They are paying for knowledge and an edge up, not for woobies and warm milk.
    For the record, there was no yelling, throwing of anything…just a simple, pure and honest response.
    Refreshing!

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    #179927

    GB
    Participant

    Stan,
    It was great putting face to name!   I’m glad to hear you and yours are feeling better.

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    #179928

    Nolan
    Participant

    HB – have to agree with you.
    I’ll try to make this brief – was teaching a YB class when Dave (whatever) began to describe a problem with a process where they had tried numerous fixes. This came as we were in the midst of learning FMEA. Suzie (whatever, the cutest gal in the company who accepted as a SOP that everybody would kiss her butt) said “Dave how about if you do …..”. I kinda overreacted with “No, no, no. What are we learning here? Analysis. Dave is in the predicament he is because he has tried this, he’s tried that, he tried…. Suzie we are right here in the middle of learning an appropriate way to analyze this problem and your immediate reaction is to throw this learning out the window and revert to animal instinct.”
    Needless to say she couldn’t believe anybody would treat her like that; and I think no one else in the class did either. I didn’t mean to insult her; however I couldn’t believe what I was hearing and this occurence made a significant impact on the value of what we were learning because our conversation moved back the FMEA and how it could be used to benefit Dave.
    So, when merited (and one can argue about that all day) appropriate confrontation can have a beneficail impact on knowledge retention and on recognition of the need for change.
    PS: Suzie cancelled our dinner plans for that evening. Oh well.

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    #179930

    Darth
    Participant

    VB,
    I sense some resentment or envy in your comments about Mike H.  His presentation about lessons learned for successful deployments made a lot of sense.  History sometimes is a matter of interpretation.  No one can predict how Bush will eventually be remembered by history nor do we know for sure how people will regard MH in the decades to come.  Yes, he was a bit overdramatic in his stories and his “cooler than thou” appearance detracted from what I would expect of a serious executive. Nevertheless, we have to admit that much of what SS is today can be traced back to the early years and the attention he got for what has become a significant consultant industry.
    If he was trying to attract attention, he certainly accomplished that with his demeanor, dress and escort.  But then again, he has been a showman all his career and sometimes that is needed.  Next year, I expect you to be there with some arm candy, possibly that hot Aimee who introduced the academic speaker from Mexico.  Mark my word, next year Carnell will be all decked out with chains and stuff and dressed as a Parrot Head.  Gary will be in a Hell’s Angels motorcycle jacket and a long ponytail.  I will be accompanied by some sweetie dressed as Princess Leia.  HeeBee will have on his coolest paper bag and Stevo will be doing a standup routine like Steven Wright.  We will look more like a Halloween Party than a professional conference.  Let’s hope that Fake Mike and his staff don’t find out otherwise they may have one of them cuff us and do a pat down….ME FIRST!!!

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    #179931

    Darth
    Participant
    #179932

    Darth
    Participant

    Post his address and I will have UPS deliver the chairs and shoes so they will be onsite when Mike arrives.

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    #179933

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Darth and Heebee.I am doing this from a Blackberry so it is painful at best. You guys are going to get the lynch mob all fired up again just when things were getting rational again.Regards

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    #179935

    GB
    Participant

    No worries.   The Mod-Gods have obliterated the passages.

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    #179936

    Stan for Pres in 2014
    Member

    I think Carnell and Darth should marry one another.

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    #179937

    Chris Seider
    Participant

    You said “healthcare is a unique business”  How is it unique?  I can think of plenty of examples where the manufacturers had to satisfy mutliple needs and customers even if sending items to the same address even if only one person is technically paying for the health care. 
    Maybe health care isn’t that different but maybe just culturally not challenged to change quickly.  10 years ago would surgeons have considered double checks or poka yoke’s to prevent operating on the incorrect leg by signing the part of the body when the patient is not sedated? 
    If you haven’t had to experience health care in other countries, even non-first world ones, you can’t begin to appreciate the culture that has been developed in this country, USA.  Why do customers have to see a doctor to get a prescription for an allergy medicine?  Don’t tell me it’s to protect the consumer or else Zyrtec and the others wouldn’t be  OTC now. 
    If we have a shortage of family doctors, ER wait times are long, and costs are to high, that would SCREAM for process improvement in other service industries or manufacturing.
    If you’ve been patient, I truly would love to hear more about health care being different. 

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    #179948

    MrMHead
    Participant

    Yes, maybe the healthcare industry is “challenged” in some way if it took them this long to figure this one out:
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-01-14-surgery-checklist_N.htm
    And from the anecdote in the article, it sounds like they also did a rudimentary FMEA.
    One quote from the article: “It usually takes 17 years for medical advances to become standard practice”

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    #179950

    Observer
    Participant

    Mr. Seider,I thought I made my points clearly in my last post. I didn’t infer that there were no opportunities for improvement in healthcare. I have worked quite extensively in the field and can point to many applications and successes. But it is unique in the sense of competing priorities, barriers to entry, government oversight and yes, cultural differences. While we do have great medical care in the US it is at great expense with a flawed system. While much of Lean and Six Sigma can be utilized in the industry, it needs to be done with a realization of its differences and a sensitivity to its current cultures. As I stated, a classical manufacturing guy going into a hospital setting, regardless of experience and competency, will not be successful without appreciating and accepting of the state of the industry. The same can be said about deploying LSS in the military. Again, a unique environment with lots of applications but again a culture that requires some sensitivity and appreciation to its differences.

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    #179952

    Darth
    Participant

    Observer certainly has pointed out the opportunities in healthcare. I have had some exposure to them and the article does not surprise me. I vividly recall introducing FMEA in a large hospital chain. Prior to that JCAHO and past practices always did a postmortem root cause analysis after a serious event. Trying to prevent one was a real eye opener for them.

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