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  • #45670

    LSSA
    Participant

    Happy new year all!
    I was hoping to solicit some “VOC” from as many folks as possible regarding what you consider to be “value” from a Lean Six Sigma consulting firm. 
    For example, would you want them to provide both online and traditional in class training or a combination of both?  If online, what type of media?  PowerPoint with voice?  Fancy flash programming? 
    What about merging Lean and Six Sigma together (aka Lean Six Sigma) or keeping the methodologies seperate?
    I hope I am allowed to solicit this type of feedback.  If it is not allowed I apologize in advance!

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    #149790

    Mikel
    Member

    Perference would be traditional with some form of media available for refresher. Who cares about fancy? A motivated learner will learn regardless. An unmotived person being put through an electronic teaching median will game the system, fancy or not.
    Merging Lean and Six Sigma together give a bastardized version of both. I have never met a person that really understands and is a real practioner of Lean that learned it in LSS. Their SS skills are also generally weak. 

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    #149791

    Joe BB
    Participant

    LittleMan StanBoy,
    This is the worst BS I have ever heard. SS alone is nothing but a bunch of statistical analysis, is you do not complement it with Lean, chances are that you going nowhere. It does not take a rocket scientist to see that.

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    #149792

    LSSA
    Participant

    Thanks for the comments Stan.  I would like to ask you more questions if you don’t mind.
    If you were looking to hire a firm to help with your deployment (hypothetically speaking here of course) how would you go about it?  Google?  Networking/recommendations?  Magazines?  I guess this is a marketing question.
    And what would be your main criteria screening system to help you decide which company to go with?  The firm with the most Phd’s?  The firm with most clients?  Price?  Other?

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    #149796

    Chris Seider
    Participant

    Wow, quite the comments from you Joe BB.  I’m not sure what the experience is or where you might have seen 6S used but I can’t imagine the six sigma methodology which is a collection of tools not using some tools labeled as lean.
    All I know is I’ve seen, used, taught, and mentored others to use the statistical, lean, and change management tools to drive sustained success in their organization.
    I know for certain that Stan has never advocated only the use of the statistical tools within the powerful Six Sigma methodology…..  I wonder if I could turn your words around and get you to admit that lean techniques without use of statistical tools will not be as powerful –even to those who aren’t rocket scientists. :)
    Also, you might remember and realize one of the tenets of lean is to have low variation and low defects for a lean organization to work well.  Gee, those are the tenets often attacked with the statistical Six Sigma tools. 

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    #149797

    Dale
    Participant

    At the risk of another totally unprofessional burst of ranting, I agree Lean, SS, DFSS, etc. should be considered separate but related topics.  training should explain the tools in each area, how & when to use them, case studies that fit your company (manufacturing examples in a transactional business don’t fly), hands-on exercises.
    I think some intro online works as long as you include some interaction – test questions.  Personally, I like voice with PP as long as the narrative is engaging – not someone reading a book.
    Any use of consultants should be measured on quality of content (including case studies), presentation (including hands on exercises), and what are they leaving behind – tools, templates, training material (can you use the material for subsequent internal training for other groups).  What is the metric for a “successful” training session?  Passed exams, % of evaluations with sat scores, successful project launches, etc.  I would build that into the contract.  Basically, if the training wasn’t successful, redo or coach the associates.
    But I think you first need to decide what do you want coming out of the training?   If it is results, then I would do some training, then the trainees go off and start their projects.  Second training would include coaching on actual projects.

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    #149799

    Mikel
    Member

    Joe honey,
    Happy new year. It is refreshing to know that you didn’t get any smarter with the turn of the calendar.
    I have never avocated stats alone and SS taught right does not do that.
    I just say teach them as separate, but equal, topics. Lean is best taught in a 1/3 or less class setting and 2/3’s or more doing. SS does not lend itself to that type of a model. The LSS teaching is going short on teaching people Lean.

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    #149802

    Mikel
    Member

    I would go with word of mouth / recommendations. Most of the suppliers advertising on this page have to drive volume, so while they may tell you they will come and treat your company special and evaluate your needs – I can write for you now what they will tell you.
    The firm with the most PhD’s would seem to be a bad criteria. If you want price, just be careful. The firm with the lowest daily rates, Like the George Group or Implementation Services, will also load with 2-3 times the number of mandays you really need.
    Proof of success in multiple environments would be my main screening criteria.
    If you want advice that is not recommending myself, send me a note at [email protected].

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    #149804

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Joe BB,
    I am going along with the idea you need both including if you have a Lean deployment you need a problem solving discipline.
    The Lean people used to have this cute little saying about lowering the water in the river and expose the rocks – the water representing inventory levels and the rocks representing problems. If you do this you need to be ready to deal with the rocks. You have three options:
    1. Leave them exposed and find a solution. That can be a disciplined approach or a shotgun approach. I am sticking with a disciplined approach. 
    2. Ignore them and bask in the glory of low inventory and a poor process that delivers junk from time to time or possibly continuously. You customers willlove this one.
    3. Cover them back up. This of course makes the organization more resistant than ever to uncovering them ever again. The first time I presented this option I thought my co-author, Chuck Mills, was going to have me shot. Unfortunately it is an option, a very poor and short sighted one, if you cannot find a solution to a problem.
    Lean as a stand alone leaves you as vulnerable as Six Sigma as a stand alone.
    Just my opinion.

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    #149819

    Joe BB
    Participant

    I fully agree with you Mike. I work for a company that has implemented Six Sigma and a vehicle for process improvement. Every project in the company is called a Six Sigma project and they kep posting the results of the projects on a dashboard, the savings seem look great, but you cannot tell that there has been any changes in the production processes, more people are hired to do the same job that fewer people used to do.
    I have no idea where these savings are coming from.
    Lean is the way! Six Sigma is a tool that can help achieve a leaner production process!
    Do not listen to LittleMan StanBoy!

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    #149823

    LSSA
    Participant

    Hi Joe BB,
    I didn’t mean to start an argument or name calling fest with this post.  Instead, I was trying to get some feedback from other practitioners.
    My opinion is that both Lean and Six Sigma are critical to making things better.  If you have ever been to a Toyota plant you will obviously see lots of TPS principles in action.  But guess what?  Toyota also does thousands of DOE’s which is obviously a statistical tool.
    If I am attacking things like lead time, inventory, or muda in general Lean is the tool.
    However, if you have defects galore or incapable process (capable processes are prerequisites to Lean as I am sure you know) you will need to attack variation using Six Sigma tools. 
    So, both have their merits and compliment each other nicely.  I tend to lean (no pun intended) towards the “keep them seperate” camp when teaching but was interested to hear others thoughts.  But some basic Lean topics like 5S and Poka-Yoke should be taught in Six Sigma programs as they are too good to pass!  I like to discuss them in the “I” modules.

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    #149833

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Stan and I go back to 1983 so I will probably keep listening.
    The way the program is being run doesn’t mean anything about SS. The tools always work. The issue is who you put the deployment in the hands of. If they run SS with a lack of integrity then whatever job they had previously they probably did with as little integrity.
    There was some post around the savings issues a couple days ago. When you begin a deployment (assuming that the company doesn’t already have one when they should) we generate a thing called a Benefits Capture Protocol it tells you how you account for benefits and it is bought off on by the CFO. I am not sure why everyone seems to jump all over work instruction for manufacturing and then they are amazed when they leave something like benefits calculations undocumented and they get variation in the results.
    Personally I don’t care if they do lean with Six Sigma, Six Sigma with lean, TQM with Lean, lean with TQM, etc. as long as they are moving forward.
    Just my opinion.
    Happy New Year

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    #149849

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    Before  implementing SS,Lean or  Lean-SS you hsould  answer the  following  questions:
    *What are the  strong  points?
    *What  are  the weak  points?
    *How  would you  improve  your  system?
    *Describe your company’s improvement  activities over the  past 3  years?
    *What  worked and  why did  it  work?
    *What didn’t  work,and  why  not?
    *What would  you  do  differently?
    Good Luck

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    #149851

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    All  those  Lean  topics  are  taught  in the Lean-SS Course.

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    #149852

    Marlon Brando
    Participant

    The firm  with  most  clients?

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    #149856

    Mikel
    Member

    Joe honey,
    If you would learn to read, you will see I agree with you about lean.
    I think it gets its own dedicated personnel. You can’t structure a lean deployment doing a project here and there. Lean is a systematic way of thinking and it involves everyone.

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    #149857

    Mikel
    Member

    I don’t agree with you?
    The firm with the most clients will not focus on you?
    It is odd to end most sentences with a question mark?

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    #149886

    LSSA
    Participant

    LSSA,
    In this forum, never worry about what you read….many of the posts are jests toward those who know each quite a bit.  Consider what this forum would be like if no passion exists.
    I would like to suggest you consider discussing some of the lean tools in the Define or Measure phase.  Some places are in such bad disarray that the tools need to be implemented to reduce the noise in the process. 
    Good luck.

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    #149887

    Chris Seider
    Participant

    LSSA,
    In this forum, never worry about what you read….many of the posts are jests toward those who know each quite a bit.  Consider what this forum would be like if no passion exists.
    I would like to suggest you consider discussing some of the lean tools in the Define or Measure phase.  Some places are in such bad disarray that the tools need to be implemented to reduce the noise in the process. 
    Good luck.  ugggh, sorry for the previous mispost!

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