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This topic contains 32 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  Mike Carnell 1 month ago.

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  • #54082

    Chris Paret
    Participant

    Has anyone heard of this organization – The Council for Six Sigma Certification (sixsigmacouncil.org)?

    This one is new to me and I can’t figure out who is behind this “third-party accrediting body”.

    It looks like they review training providers on Course Curriculum, Course Structure and Testing/Certification Requirements. I’ve reviewed the requirements and the “approved providers” and, from my understanding, some of the providers don’t meet the standard yet are listed.

    I’m interested in hearing what others think of this organization and who’s behind the curtain.

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    #193447

    Tom W.

    The whois record for the domain name is under privacy protection, but I went back in the history of the record and found some info.

    Domain ID:D159883237-LROR
    Domain Name:SIXSIGMACOUNCIL.ORG
    Created On:12-Aug-2010 16:28:03 UTC
    Last Updated On:12-Aug-2010 16:28:06 UTC
    Expiration Date:12-Aug-2012 16:28:03 UTC
    Sponsoring Registrar:GoDaddy.com, Inc. (R91-LROR)
    Status:CLIENT DELETE PROHIBITED
    Status:CLIENT RENEW PROHIBITED
    Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED
    Status:CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITED
    Status:TRANSFER PROHIBITED
    Status:ADDPERIOD
    Registrant ID:CR56849005
    Registrant Name:CRAIG SETTER
    Registrant Street1:113 Lawnview Court
    Registrant Street2:
    Registrant Street3:
    Registrant City:Cranberry Township
    Registrant State/Province:Pennsylvania
    Registrant Postal Code:16066
    Registrant Country:US
    Registrant Phone:+1.4405211318
    Registrant Phone Ext.:
    Registrant FAX:
    Registrant FAX Ext.:
    Registrant Email:bursar@sixsigmaonline.org

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    #197438

    Wayne

    seems like no small coincidence that the mailing address from the whois is the exact same town as Pro Source, one of the endorsed companies.

    [Portion of discussion redacted per https://www.isixsigma.com/topic/forum-etiquette/]

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    #198526

    Becky Barry
    Participant

    Based on my research, it looks like Aveta (a Six Sigma testing service that is not recognized) is behind this one. It took a lot of digging, because they do not have a phone number or address listed on the on The Council for Six Sigma Certification website. The address listed above is the same city as Aveta.

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    #198564

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    @cparet Mr. Paret, I realize you asked this 3 years ago. Basically Wayne and Becky did some nice investigative work but something tells me you may have posted that looking out of the corner of your eye. Maybe not.

    If you look at this industry the focus has shifted from deploying and getting results to selling certification. That is not meant to be a cheap shot. You are involved in training (which I believe is done very well) and I assume certification (never actually asked). It is interesting that when we began this whole thing we did certs purely as something ancillary so management would know who was satisfactorily trained to do the job, a training certificate to those who did classroom and no project – primarily to identify management teams that were not supporting the program and of course if there was no progress we sent them back to their job (if it was still available) by the Analyze Phase.

    Are people scamming certification? I am sure it is happening somewhere simply because there is money in it. Are these guys? No clue but If the only thing a company does is certification it should be a signal for a closer look.

    Just my opinion.

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    #198565

    Gather Data

    [Portion of discussion redacted per https://www.isixsigma.com/topic/forum-etiquette/]

    Let’s look at the data.

    1. There is no business entity listed on the website. Search the terms and privacy policy. Nothing.
    2. They are using a “.org” domain name, indicating they are a not for profit entity, yet they have no not for profit identified.
    3. There is not contact information on their website. Why? Because they don’t want to be contacted.
    4. Their terms of service say, “Any claim relating to Council for Six Sigma Certification’s web site shall be governed by the laws of the State of Ohio without regard to its conflict of law provisions.” Yet they are not listed in the Ohio Secretary of State as a licensed entity: http://www2.sos.state.oh.us/pls/bsqry/f?p=100:2:0::NO:RP::

    C’mon, people. Whenever there’s money to be made (or scammed from people) there will be people there to do it.

    Do your due diligence. Don’t be a mark.

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    #202462

    Craig Setter
    Participant

    Hello, my name is Craig Setter and I am the proud founder of both Aveta Business Institute’s Six Sigma Online, ProSource, and The Council for Six Sigma Certification (CSSC).

    The CSSC and the training providers are separate entities and operated completely independently.

    In fact, Prosource isn’t even accredited for its Black Belt Program since it doesn’t currently meet the CSSC’s project requirement.

    Besides, over the years I have LITERALLY given free training materials and free accreditation to HUNDREDS of providers that are Aveta’s COMPETITION through CSSC. Seriously, think about that.

    But let’s consider the source of these attacks…

    Lots of posts from anonymous people here.

    The new ISSSP website appears to have boasted from 2015 to 2017 that “Up until the formation of ISSSP, there has not been a true Governing Body over Six Sigma”. Funny, I don’t recall ISSSP ever offering accrediation or certification. Anybody else?

    [Portion of discussion redacted per https://www.isixsigma.com/topic/forum-etiquette/ ]

    If interested, you can read more about it (and the supporting evidence of my beliefs) here.

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    #202498

    Marshall
    Participant

    So, are in fact Aveta Business Institute and The Council for Six Sigma Certification legitimate sources for Black Belt certification?? The reason I am asking is because two years ago, I was researching “Accredited Six Sigma Certification” and Aveta Business Institute was one of the first options. Wondering………

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    #202506

    Craig Setter
    Participant

    Hello Marshall. I am the proud founder of Aveta and CSSC.

    Aveta’s Six Sigma Online was one of the very first websites to offer online six sigma training and certification back in 2005. In just the past 6 years alone we have certified over 100,000 individuals. I am certainly not aware of Aveta’s offering not being considered legitimate by employers. Usually, it seems what makes a Black Belt considered somewhat less legitimate by the industry is if a project was never completed as a certification requirement (we have always required one). Unfortunately, that requirement seems to have become more of the industry exception these days instead of the norm in recent years.

    With that being said, if I may offer some personal advice… what makes your certification truly “legitimate” has less to do with where you got it, and more about what you have personally contributed towards earning it. Anyone who tells you different is just trying to sell you something.

    A “certification” in speaking Spanish won’t mean much if you can’t fluently speak Spanish. Meanwhile, there are tons of people in the world who speak Spanish perfectly with no “certification” at all. This analogy perfectly reflects Six Sigma as well.

    No matter where/how you receive it, you will get out of it what you put into it :) If you are interested in just learning six sigma, you can certainly begin your journey without spending any money at all. There are plenty of materials available, both on this site and elsewhere on the internet, that will help you in your journey!

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    #202568

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    @csetter I am going to be right up front with you, I don’t care for either of your posts and I will tell why. Before I do that I want to get this out on the table so you don’t drag me into this fight you appear to have initiated. My nephew is Scot Shank and owns IASSC. I have zero connection to that organization which includes management, IP and financial. I am not here to endorse IASSC or to disparage it either. Now that that is clear I do not expect it to be an issue again.

    Here is where you got my attention. You stated “Lots of posts from anonymous people here.” The word Lots is ambiguous but in terms of the length of strings on this site there are not lots of posts on this one. There are 9 total. 2 are you and 1 is me. Chris Paret is another. That leaves 5 – 2 of which are registered with iSS so that leaves 3 that are anonymous. I am probably getting to around 5000 posts on this DF and have never posted anonymously.

    The question that started this post was a question form Chris Paret about who CSSC was. That strikes me as odd. You say you were among the first for on-line training and began in 2005. I believe that Moresteam was actually the first or at least the first I knew of (to use your parlance “aware of”) and they began around 2000. You were 5 years later. That seems to be a very long time to still be part of the first. The other issue is Chris had worked for Minitab and Moresteam. Basically the Minitab people get around this industry and there isn’t much they are not aware of. It is actually a small community. As part of Moresteam you would have been a competitor. Chris was in sales and he wasn’t aware of a competitor? That just doesn’t make any sense.

    So we can put al of that aside and get to the question of certification. You say you are not aware of anyone having issues with your cert. I don’t know one way or the other. I do know there are a lot of things that each and everyone of us are not aware of. That doesn’t make them true or not true.

    You require projects. That is much different than the belts from the Allied, GE, Navistar, etc. deployments. Those certification project were mentored. We knew what happened or if it ever actually happened. Are you mentoring or checking the projects in your certification process? You say you have certified over 100,000 people. The reason I ask is a really good project still takes about 5 hours total just to verify (not to mention the logistics to get there). That is about 500,000 hours or about 250 man years. Normally that wouldn’t concern me except you said you do this for free. If I spread those years evenly over your 13 years then you need a full time staff of 19-20 people to cover that mentoring and verification. I have no idea how large your company is but 19-20 FTE’s is a big hit to revenue particularly when there is no revenue or at least that is how I understand your business model.

    I didn’t get into this to pick this stuff apart. We still haven’t gotten down to the quality of the certification or where you get the authority to certify. All your arguments seem to focus on the issue that you do it for free. On the surface that sounds very commendable. There is a flip side to that particular pitch. Why are giving something away for free where there is a market willing to pay for it?

    I certify people. Have for 23 years. Never outside of a deployment and I do not do it for free. My clients get a good ROI. We sell business improvement not certification. They are certified to have completed the training and project work to what we teach which is the same program we delivered to Allied, GE, Sumitomo, NEC, BHP Billiton, etc. I do not certify people someone else has trained. That has always felt very presumptuous to me.

    The last issue is your confrontation with other organizations and people in the SS community. For what? Do you think when you announce on each post that you are the proud of Aveeta and CSSC people are stopping and saying “I must have been wrong. He is proud of them. I have now changed my mind about Craig” Of course you are proud of them or at least if they are still open you should be. If you weren’t I would think you would have shut them down. Getting in the gutter and fighting it out was probably ok in the early 2000’s because this was kind of the wild west around this industry. I have spent my fair share of time in the gutter and in court. No real need anymore or at least the industry has matured to the point it doesn’t make any sense. I have no idea why you want to fight with ISSSP. It is under new ownership and the governance is very clean. I have joined again and most people know I have an issue following rules but it seems the way it is structured at this time it isn’t coming out to compete with its members by certifying anyone or to try to control my company. The concept is good. The only way to keep it good is to get involved and influence the direction it goes – but that assumes we all know the correct direction.

    I don’t normally spend this much time on a post. I have spent a long time thinking about this answer. That remark about anonymous posts didn’t set well with me. I have a lot of friend who over the years have posted anonymously because their employer would terminate them for posting under their real name. They post anonymously but that doesn’t mean what they post is or is not true.

    All of this is just my opinion.

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    #202569

    Craig Setter
    Participant

    @mike-carnell Hi Mike,

    Thank you for the post. Please note that my original post was heavily changed by the moderator (which made my points much less clear).

    Regardless, serious question… did Peter ask you to post this? Have you had any contact with any individual from ISSSP or IASSC in regards to this thread? The reason I ask is because it is very strange that an unbiased person would question why I am defending myself if they had read my linkedin post.

    Peter Peterka appears to link to this posting (from his website(s)) in an attempt to discredit my organization for his own purposes.

    If you went to the linked link I posted you would see the issue I have with the other posts that were made here and how they appear to be made out of malice (Chris Paret
    and your original post excluded). Beck Barry appears to be a long-time employee of Peter Peterka. She is even listed on ISSSP’s website now as part of the staff. Again, go read my linkedin post.

    Considering that your nephew (owner of IASSC) sued Peter Peterka (who appears to own ISSSP), I would assume you would be aware of the allegations in regards to Peter’s actions. Again, refer to my link.

    Respectfully, I don’t see how you are not biased:
    1. You state that you have family member(s) whom I am currently fighting in court.
    2. You appear to have been one of the first members of ISSSP, which appears to have been revamped by Peter Peterka under questionable terms… the very person whom I was referring to in my original (moderator redacted) post.

    In regards to the 100,000+ free certifications…. we started giving out free white belt training and certification many years ago when we were unable to talk the six sigma industry out of the need for it:

    https://www.qualitydigest.com/inside/twitter-ed/just-say-no-white-belts.html

    Note to Moderator: I have tried to post as little as possible while still making very basic points in my defense. I sincerely hope that you allow this post to remain “as-is”.

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    #202570

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    @csetter I told you why I posted this. You can see I was on this string long before you ever posted anything. I question this whole post because it seems to revolve around personality issues that have nothing to do with certification. There is no point where you make your case for certifying people beyond the fact that you do it for free. No – I have not read your LinkedIn post and I have not been on Peter Perterka’s website.

    I do not keep track of Scot Shank and I do not participate in his business in any way. I had no idea you were in a lawsuit with Scot Shank. That is between you and Scot and it still has nothing to do with the response to the question of certification.

    I am a member of ISSSP. Told you I was just like I told you I was related to Scot. I have no idea if I was the first to join of the one millionth. What number I am is irrelevant to anything. Obviously it is more important to you than it is to me. At this point it seems like a reasonable place (ISSSP) to have discussions with other people in the CI industry. When or if it stops serving my needs I will quit, the same thing I did last time.

    My real point should be I do not need to justify myself to you. I have around 5000 posts since 2001 and have pretty much always posted exactly what was on my mind just like I did today. I have been putting stuff up here for 17 years without anyone telling me what to post. I have been considering that response for weeks. I thought I was done with this post 3 years ago and then you started to post. No conspiracy here. This was in response to your post.

    The explanation of the white belt certification. White belts? Really?

    Craig I have no intention of engaging you beyond what I have done earlier today and this post. Beyond that this entire string is no longer good for the CI industry.

    Just my opinion.

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    #202608

    Burns
    Participant

    Mike,
    Isn’t everyone “scamming certification” as you suggest? We all know that Six Sigma is based on utter nonsense.

    [Links to poster’s own articles found elsewhere removed per Forum guidelines]

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    #202609

    Daniel Sims
    Participant

    I wondered what the angle was until I scrolled to the bottom. Of course, you’re trying to sell something.

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    #202610

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    @Daniel.S I am not sure if you are speaking of this thread specifically or of the iSS discussion forum in general.

    If it is the DF in general most of the people posting have jobs and are not trying to sell anything.

    I am a consultant and I sell deployments i.e. we are hired to do something specific in a business. Sometimes that is training. When we train on a deployment I do not certify anyone who does not meet my requirements and the companies requirements. I do not certify people outside of a deployment. Bottom line is I am not selling certifications.

    I have over 5000 post on the Discussion Forum and have been paid $0. I have made some very good friends in 17 years of posting. That is why I do this. I did pitch my book the other day for the very large sum of two other authors an I split about $1 per book.

    What exactly is it that bothers you about someone trying to sell something? Aside from some people who have trust funds most people are selling something. If you are working for someone, have a job, you are selling your time. The internet is covered with people selling something. Purchasing is still your decision.

    To follow on to this thread if you want to be able to interface with others in SS and not get a sales pitch, ISSSP is set up right now to operate that way. It is a nonprofit organization and operates within the legal requirements of a non profit.

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    #202611

    Daniel Sims
    Participant

    @mike-carnell Hi Mike, I think you have completely misunderstood! I am replying to @burns above my comment, I clicked on one of his links about “Six sigma stupidity” and scrolled it to get his angle.

    I don’t think I even need to state the following (at the risk of sounding sycophantic) but I will anyway : I greatly appreciate all of the posters on the forum and their time, it’s an invaluable resource. I’ve actually read a few years worth of various topics now and have enjoyed the discussions. Although there is a hell of alot of homework questions haha

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    #202612

    Aaron Olson
    Participant

    @mike-carnell
    I might be assuming here, but I think that @Daniel.S is referring the article linked by “Burns”. At the bottom of the first linked article is an explanation on why his particular services/products are more sound than the training and tools utilized in Six Sigma methodologies. I had a similar thought cross my mind while reading his article and finding the “punchline”.

    Just my thoughts.

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    #202613

    Craig Setter
    Participant

    @mike-carnell

    Respectfully, just because ISSSP recently became a non-profit does not necessarily mean anything. IMHO it is presumptive to assume the overall motivations of anyone or any organization (mine included). As stated in my above post, it appears that ISSSP was rebranded by someone who also sells six sigma training.

    As long as there are software providers, training providers, conferences, publications, etc… there will always likely be someone selling something wherever you go (here or anywhere else).

    Regardless, I just visited ISSSP’s “forum” and it appears that only 3 people have ever posted there… the screename “Example – Janie Doe”, “ISSSP Team”, and a guy who is apparently their “ISSSP Program Advisor” whom strangely appears to post and then reply to himself. It doesn’t appear to be a viable alternative to isixsigma when it comes to interfacing with others.

    iSixsigma is a robust community that is free. iSixsigma has free tools and templates. I have always referred people here. Why go somewhere else?

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    #202615

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    @csetter We are both entitled to our opinions. As far as I know at this time it is in compliance with the rules for non profits which means it is run by a board not a person. I do not see any rebranding. Exactly what do think is rebranding.

    I appreciate the enlightenment regarding people selling things. I am not sure what people posting has to do with anything.

    Now the part where you thought I need to be educated on iSS. My first post was in 2001. As I stated earlier I have over 5000 posts so thank you for all your words of wisdom. I am not sure at all why you would think someone has to make a choice between ISSSP and iSS. We are all adults and realize we can do both. One doesn’t have to be an alternative to the other. I do several discussion groups and LinkedIn because there seems to be different communities on each.

    You seem to have a real issue with Peter. That is your problem not ours. I am sure if you really wanted to you could pick up your phone and call him. The rest of us are not particularly interested. If you want to engage in a SS issue that is fine. If you just want to continue your fight I won’t be responding.

    Just my opinion.

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    #202616

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    @Daniel.S I apologize I did misunderstand your post. You can find a ton of stuff on Linkedin from Burns. Very reminiscent of Dr. Irwin Cory.

    These things become like people who watch television. You find people you like and people you don’t. I always read the stuff from Robert Butler because it is rare I don’t learn something and I rarely get in the middle of a string of his unless I have been digging through books. Chris Seider and Staydog I always read because they put good stuff up but I will disagree with them from time to time. Then there are certain people who I don’t read at all because they post the same dogma every time they post. Very tedious and completely unoriginal (if you watch the movie Good Will Hunting where he talks economics in the bar to the Kenny G wanna-be like that).

    Darth used to be the guy that figured out who was posting homework. He is still around but he is old and grouchy and I am not sure his wife lets him use the computer unsupervised any more.

    My apologies again.

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    #202621

    Daniel Sims
    Participant

    @mike-carnell No worries Mike, agree there is certainly a handful of very knowledgable regular posters who I always read fully. It’s a great resource here.

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    #202724

    Marshall
    Participant

    Ok then…….
    Well, considering I am not as experienced in the Six Sigma area, I am, however, observant as to how people are and how easily they can become defensive in regards to protecting what they feel is right. If I remember correctly, I was told that there is no actual governing body over Six Sigma certification….. correct or incorrect? I bit the bullet after doing some research. I put time and money into my certification (pending), my associate and I have our project for certification showing over $1.1M in savings for an agency, over 3 years……. An eye opener? Yes. Has the question been asked, “Where or Who are you getting certified through?” been asked? No. Showing a viable goal to an organization comes from studying, learning, absorbing what you learn and applying it.
    On another note: Not to ruffle feathers her (as I am a ROOKIE), I have 34 years experience with government agencies. One of the most VALUABLE pieces of advice I was given is: ALWAYS PRAISE IN PUBLIC, REPRIMAND IN PRIVATE. I’m sorry, but the back and forth of who is legitimate and who is a fraud here is a little bit too much, on a professional level. Just my opinion but the majority of this should have been kept on a person to person level via pm’s………. Take my input as you wish. Personally, I’M HERE TO LEARN, NOT WATCH A SOAP OPERA……

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    #202732

    Craig Setter
    Participant

    @Marshall

    Hi Marshall,
    Ever since the beginning of Six Sigma, there has never been to my knowledge a universally industry-accepted “standard” for certification or any type of recognized “accrediting” agency in the Six Sigma community. Since there was no accrediting agency, it appeared that some companies would create one to either bolster their own training, sell the accreditation itself, etc. Many large companies and government institutions fueled the problem by requiring a program to be “accredited” in order to obtain “tuition reimbursement”.

    In the United States, as with many countries, colleges and universities are required to be accredited (by an accrediting agency approved by the US Department of Education) if they want to be eligible to accept financial aid. However, Six Sigma Certification was originally intended for employees… not individuals (or put another way, it was part of an employer’s employee training budget and not a type of tuition reimbursement). Please keep in mind that Six Sigma was designed by Motorola, not a “university”.

    More simply put, the whole point of a college being accredited was to protect consumers from diploma-mills. However, Six Sigma was never intended for consumers (or to be a main-stream college degree type). It was intended solely for businesses. The training was provided within a company by consultants, not professors.

    But that did not prevent accrediting agencies from popping up for various reasons. These “accrediting” organizations were often confused by students and employers with a universally industry accepted recognized accrediting body. These “organizations” could literally be made overnight, which is why they held no weight in the six sigma industry. Unfortunately, this also lead to a “watering down” effect on the Six Sigma community as a whole because many training providers did not adequately cover key fundamental principles in the methodology.

    THERE IS NO GOVERNING BODY FOR SIX SIGMA! It is very important people realize this. Six Sigma has no need to be regulated like medicine, finance, etc. It’s not that big of deal.
    But with that said, when six sigma accreditation is done even remotely well, it should help keep accredited training providers that are approved by them on their toes a little more.

    I do apologize for the back and forth you have had to witness. Unfortunately, I am only left with the 2 options of either remaining quiet (which I tried) or defending myself.

    But I am very happy that you decided to focus on the “learning” part of six sigma instead of the “where” to get certified from. I wish everyone did. There would certainly be a lot less forum drama and people would save a ton of their money. It sounds like you’re on the right track :)

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    #203007

    Danial

    Hi,

    Question @csetter:

    It become very confusing so If you own(Co.) both Aveta Business Institute’s Six Sigma Online, and The Council for Six Sigma Certification could you explain why there are different price for the same certificates in these websites? and also how is it possible that your right and accredit your left hand?

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    #203008

    Craig Setter
    Participant

    Hi Danial,

    Aveta Business Institute’s Six Sigma Online has training videos, tools, templates, support, etc. The Council for Six Sigma Certification doesn’t.

    Please keep in mind that these are separate organizations and are operated as such. I would think that it is probably more-common-than-not for an organization (whose goal is industry standardization) to be founded by those that have operated a business within that sector (whether in the six sigma industry or in any other industry). I think you will have a very difficult time finding an organization in the six sigma industry where this doesn’t occur.

    Keep in mind that IASSC appears to currently list about 80 Accredited Training Organizations on its website. It appears that the Council for Six Sigma Certification currently has approximately twice as many accredited training organizations listed on its website that have applied and received accreditation. I don’t think it would be fair to exclude an organization from what appears to be the largest training organization accreditation website just because they have a common founder.

    That being said, there is currently a disclaimer in plain view on Aveta’s accreditation profile at the Council for Six Sigma Certification that clearly states: “Ethical Transparency Notice: Aveta Business Institute was founded by Craig Setter. Mr. Setter was also the original founder of the Council for Six Sigma Certification. Therefore, a direct/indirect common ownership between the two organizations may exist.”. This is in the middle of the page where it can’t be missed (not hidden in small text somewhere obscure like you would expect to find on most websites these days).

    To get back to your original question, I believe a reasonable person could also ask an alternate version of your question… “how can an organization charge an accreditation fee (and and fee renewals) with their left hand and then accredit organizations with their right hand?”. Personally, I feel that could be WAY MORE of a conflict of interest than sharing mutual founders with a training provider. But yet, that appears to be the status quo. That is a primary reason why the Council for Six Sigma Certification doesn’t charge training providers for accreditation.

    Also keep in mind that the Council for Six Sigma Certification also offers completely free self-study guides. Let me share with you a recent customer email we received at the Council for Six Sigma Certification.

    “Hello. I just wanted to thank you. This really helped me a lot. Im not yet certified for six sigma because it is to expensive and due to financial constraints i cannot go to an institue and have myself trained. So i would like to thank you for sharing this. Whoever thought of this giving this for free is and will be truly blessed :)”

    Personally, I would encourage anyone interested in Six Sigma to go read the free self-study guides… then go apply what you learned. Don’t worry about signing up for a seminar or an online course. Don’t worry about getting certified. Just download the book, spend zero money, and never come back. Just go and improve some processes (and likely your career).

    If you really want to spend money to feel like you are getting a quality education… I would recommend people check out Moresteam. I have always heard great things. But for those that can’t afford to pay anything at all, I love seeing emails like the one above :)

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    #242242

    BobFair
    Participant

    observations for @mike-carnell and @csetter and fu pa for all .

    Mike.  I will take your tact. I will say upfront and say I am not in the 6 sigma business model for professionals.
    I also will say you talk in circles. And at times seem condescending. This is constructive criticism, because a lot of what you share and write is of value for the community…

    I am familiar only with 6 sigma processes from academic reading in years past.
    I am a PM and very familiar, astute, practice, and implement various other business processes/models.
    Recently, I thought about extending my knowledge with 6 sigma and was considering that certification would be beneficial and/or complement other certifications.
    Everyone has to start somewhere.  Education comes first. At the end of the day it is how you apply it is all that matters…
    With that said, some certifications in the professional world are an absolute necessity, have prestigious weight, and in the process more accurately separate the fakers.
    I have discovered 6 sigma certification does not have much weight and has turned into laughable farce. Unfortunate to say the least.
    The most legit cert I find would be ASQ… perhaps IASCC ( I was thinking #2) but based on your “unbiased” information…  I question it now too.

    @mike-carnell – you talk about how you find it funny that regarding mention of anonymous posters. you break it down to the nth degree (TMI)… I thought the same thing, I get the sense at a glance that posters are anonymous or the names are fake.
    BUT  then you turnaround and reverse justify why you understand there are several anonymous posters….  kind of contradicting your self just for the sake of filling up space and arguing? C’mon your too smart and have too much knowledge to share to waste yours and our time with meaningless stuff.   You could say I am contradicting myself right now writing such a meaningful response ;)

    I do not know any of you! 

    It is odd, in my research years ago and again several ‘legacy’ companies are mentioned… that I have never even come across. I guess internet marketing is not their strong suit.  After many post on many sites, I first heard the additional names here.

    @ the posers from several fake organizations I have found…  what a travesty!!    fake names, multiple alias’s, fake addresses,  re-direct webpages, slight of hand internet marketing techniques to make a buck on 6 sigma education !!!
    ((I am not sure I can out some of the webpage links? ))

    @csetter  … IMHO  , At least you are transparent and not hiding behind all these fake marketing techniques to make a buck and are straight forward with who you are and what you are trying to offer.
    With that said, just for the mere fact that I find several smear campaigns amongst several companies is disheartening and a turn off (thus I now know why colleagues laugh at 6 sigma).

    @mike-carnell  what a joke… of course you have a bias if your family member is founder of IASSC…  now I want to look at it more closely too for the wrong reasons. You tarnished my impression LOLOLOL.

    I read an opinion by John P Benfield on a website and though he was spot on regarding meaning of certifications and his opinion at the end of the Day… ASQ is the epitome for of 6 sigma accreditation for 6 sigma at this point in time.
    I wish I could chat more and talk shop with John P Benfield.

    @csetter
    Folks who point out that: experience on project(s) is a needed requirement have valid points for the higher levels of certification IMO… but entry and intermediate levels – you have to draw people into the ideology and practice somehow. It cant be exclusive…
    It seems this is portrayed with CSSC.
    Which brings me to my point with CSSC – the higher level BB requires project experience by your organization. This experience can be hypothetical but must be reviewed by Master Black Belts?  How many Fellows will review and are there credentials verifiable and contact information transparent? If not transparent then the validity is less impressive.

    All – I do think if one practice Agile processes, has served in a professional capacity for some period of time, and if they educate themselves than can demonstrate how to legitimately apply it…  who gives a care if it is hypothetical vs. real project ???
    Now if there was a TRUE registered/trademarked 6 sigma standardization accpeted mainstream in our world – then one could require hours of real world experience.

    @mike-carnell     I suspect your opinion will differ regarding how a real life project or several projects are necessary to achieve certification.  I am all ears…….

    sidenote on experience requirements:  example: PMI requires certain amount of verifiable experience (in hours) for their certifications. It is subjective at times as to the experience I am sure,  but it sure does weed out a lot of incapable candidates. It is an easy way to for an accrediting body to attempt to confirm applicable experience. However, it is imperfect as it really does not verify that a person can demonstrate that can actually apply processes and manage a project.
    ALAS, just like my Master courses, my final exams are grueling Case studies…  akin to Harvard Business Case Studies. Now these are hypothetical situations..  Are these less legit because they are not real-world live projects? (rhetorical question)
    I know, I know… now this will lead to mentor-ship… which has arguments both sides of the table too… this I can best relate to unions and P.E.’s (professional engineer accreditation)… but want to save for another day another post…

    and to all –
    Personally, my point is: demonstrating  enough academic knowledge (test) and also demonstrating you can apply it (hypothetical or real)… should be enough for a person to certify they have the skills to accomplish a skilled task.

    what is the industry accepted acronym for certified 6 sigma individuals?
    what are these trademark acronyms I come across?  just an opportunistic rouge to market themselves?

    So now my long winded rant is over… was this at all necessary are will it be meaningful? (rhetorical question)

    ……….  And don’t even get me started on Scrum… sitting in a 2 day expensive class to become “certified” … what a joke !!!  BUT the one I am referring to is the most widely recognized certification and the most asked for certified Scrum Master on job boards for Scrum experts….  go figure !

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    #242248

    BobFair
    Participant

    @conmech

    I assume you achieved your certification by now.
    In private, if you wish, I would appreciate your perspective on whom you chose…
    Some subtle hints in your post indicate an experience requirement.

    I can understand your frustration of having soap opera content on what I though was and is a technical professional board.

    However, as I search for a reputable I appreciate seeing all the banter !
    One: It is quite comical.
    Two: It pushes me away from individuals (professing to be organizations) that are not reputable / legit… Especially the ones that are not transparent and practice slight of hand with misdirection of information.  Quite appalling with all the ruse.

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    #242988

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    @bobfair Let me present some basic data that really frames your response.

    You joined iSixSigma on September 17, 2019

    Your post that involved a response to me was on September 17 2019 at 6:05pm the same day you joined.

    You have done a total of 2 posts as of this morning October 16, 2019. Basically you joined and logged on, did 2 posts and were never heard from again.

    You responded to Chris Paret’s original post from May 29, 2012. That is about a 7 year and 4 month old post.

    The last response to Chris’s post before yours was September 6, 2018. Just about a year before your post.

    What you want people to believe is that you joined iSixSigma and on the same day responded to an 88 month old post that had been inactive for 1 year. Posted twice on the same string and have posted nothing since.  In that event you posted in your words a “rant” of 1086 words. I do believe in coincidence I just haven’t seen one yet.

    I don’t believe this scenario for a minute. We have had the discussion of people posting under different names. You have chosen one that doesn’t show much on Google for someone who obviously thinks so much of themselves.

    This is obviously a game for you. I am done responding to you or what ever name you chose for your next post basically because this is free advertisement for CSSC. That old quote from Oscar wild “the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.” We were lucky enough to have this “not be talked about” for a year. I have no intention of any more CPR for CSSC.

    I won’t play this game with you. As I said I am not in the certification business. I do not consider CSSC a competitor particularly when, as they have made the point, they are really in the white belt certification business.  Seriously? White belt?

    Here is a link from a legitimate company that is in the certification business and has the strength to do consulting work as well. People are free to read this and make up their own minds. The author has roots in the six sigma field and has done legitimate work and has been employed as a Master Black Belt. He has the correct pedigree to be offering certification.

    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/history-purpose-council-six-sigma-certification-peter-peterka/

     

     

     

    1
    #242989

    BobFair
    Participant

    Well it is about time you answered the post. where have you been for so such a long time?

    I ruffled your feathers with your terse attitude enough that you are researching who I am?  Now that is comical.

    My intent was not to ruffle feathers though, but to let you know your attitude is poor. Your supposed to be setting an example for the community of 6 sigma. You are an old wise man… I truly believe you are. I believe you can offer a lot of wisdom to people. I cant help but think, is it at a cost though?  (rhetorical question).   Just like all the folks you batter with words, all the illegitimate profiteers to sum up your output.

    One thing I found unappealing, is here is a very wise man… yet he takes pot shots at others….  must investigate them… starts to speak wisdom and beats his drum at how much old world experience he has… However you spend too much time saying you do not have a bias when clearly you do… and it shows in your hypocritical post.

    Dont waste so much time on the crap and lead us to wisdom and truth.

    I represent no one, I was seeking wisdom, guidance… I am not a black belt…  it is sad the re: the exploits around 6 sigma.
    I do NOT represent CSSC.  your bias and affiliated family business, I was completely turned off.  What a joke. sad sad sad 6 sigma world.

    Instead of finding truth in wisdom…  I got caught up and amused, and proceeded to further waste my time on this hypocritical crud.

    0
    #242990

    BobFair
    Participant

    Remind me of this soap Opera Mike Cantrell, how are you affiliated with Peter? As you are supposedly not affiliated with your brother-in -law or something like that with his self imposed expert of certifications.

    All these dang wankers and self conjured experts of 6 sigma… junk car salesman, Shoe salesmans, Bud Bundys (not good enough to be Al Bundy)….LOL

    Have you seen the garbage on Peters’ marketing tactics?
    Yes CSSC has committed some the same fallacies as Peter as well with regards to smack talking and trading blows. But the evidence is pretty damning and verifiable on on Peter and his expert (his own russian bride), constant slight of hand and misleading of the public with schmuck marketing tactics to make a profit.

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    #242991

    BobFair
    Participant
    #242992

    BobFair
    Participant

    @mike-carnell   –    Is it your in-law relative that is founder of IASSC  that sued Peter you just boosted up moments ago???

    https://www.sixsigmacouncil.org/peter-peterka-global-six-sigma-fake-reviews/
    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/peter-peterka-6-sigma-fraud-you-decide-craig-setter-1/

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    #243017

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    @bobfair 4 posts and you think you ruffled my feathers? This is like the old Jack Nicolson saying “What do I think about you? I don’t think about you at all.”  In roughly 3 hours you doubled your total lifetime posts ever, on iSixSigma. That is looking pretty out of control.  Time for you to spend time looking in the mirror checking your feathers and you probably need to switch to decaf.

    So you are worried about my research. I made my post by 1:40 pm and you answered 2 hours and 17 minutes later with knowledge about a lawsuit between Peter and Scot. That sounds a lot more like someone who already knew there was a lawsuit between them. That is an interesting piece of knowledge that for someone with no connections to this issue. How about I check with Peter and Scot and see when the last time was that they spoke with someone called Bob Fair or is there another name I should use to check?

    I have been in this Six Sigma business since 1988 at Motorola. I know a ton of people in the business. You want to know what me knowing Peter means in terms of this discussion? Nothing. Doesn’t mean a thing. Before Peter was ever in the certification business he worked with companies like 3M and GE, He is pretty well established in the SS community. A lot of us know him.

    Never have heard a peep about you. Any where. Doing anything. It brought this attachment to mind. Just for you.

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