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Toyota

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  • #53231

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Not looking for anyone to break any confidentiality issues – but what the heck has happened at the venerable quality leader Toyota?
    Seems like an FMEA has been ignored (can’t believe it doesn’t exist, nor that they didn’t identify this as a potential problem).  And for a potential problem like this to linger for so long in a company renowned for their continual drive for defect elimination seems to point to a more fundamental issue.
    Comments?

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    #189091

    I can’t find the reference I read this morning, apprently they’re blaming foreign patents :-)I’ve never seen a Toyota FMEA – only QFD and FTA.Do you think an FMEA would identify a potential reliablity problem without cyclical life testing?

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    #189092

    Stewart
    Participant

    GOOD MORNING America, this morning, announced:
    “Toyota, known for their COST Cutting Culture, had potentially lead to this.”
    Blame it on Six Sigma/Lean……….
    Do they know (media), how it was tracked, and potential info & decisions were being done? 
    They are admitting, a defect and have plan to fix? YEAH, I know after accidents surfaced, but maybe it was being tracked internally.
    My thoughts, their culture, is stronger on dealing with Defects than many of past organizations,  some pretty BIG decisions, had to be made on many levels, to fix it correctly, and they will fix it correctly to regain customer support.
    Later,
    Markiemark

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    #189094

    GomezAdams
    Participant

    FMEA at Toyota was replaced with the DRBFM concept years ago under the “Mizenboushi” or Continuous Improvement process.
    DRBFM is a deep dive into proposed changes in contrast to current design. The process was so successful at mitigating risk that General Motors corporation and Robert Bosch corporation stole (enticed them away) the top 2 quality architects at Toyota in the last 7 years.
    Loss of key leadership like that is bound to have quite an effect on an organization. Who is there to continue the practice.
    As the old saying goes ;”With the cats away,the mice will play”.

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    #189096

    UoCS
    Member

    Toyota has a quality perception problem rather than a quality problem.
    Here are some recent safety issues identified by the NHTSA;
    Ford F-150 pickups (2004-2006): 225 reports of random airbag deployments while vehicle is in motion
    Chevy Cobalt (2005-2009): 1,132 complaints of power steering failures
    BMW 325 (2006): Master cylinder seal leakage potentially causing brake failure.
    For some reason, probably the horrific details behing the state trooper crash, the Toyota issues gained media traction.

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    #189100

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Toyota is a prime competitor of the government’s auto department (Government Motors) and is (horrors!) anti-union. All the more incentive for the Feds to incite a media hysteria.

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    #189106

    Craig
    Participant

    The recall involves more than 8 million vehicles globally. How can  this only be a perception problem?

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    #189112

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    I was working for a tier 1 auto supplier when XX introduced this DRBFM.  They brought in several hundred of us to roll this out.  All of us at the table that I was at were commenting on how this was nothing more than a renamed FMEA, and the question was asked of one of the presenters, who admitted that was the case.  That FMEA had become a “check the box” activity with no substance and so they were rolling this out instead.

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    #189113

    UoCS
    Member

    The number of verified gas pedal issues is than less the number of incidents listed in the links above.  After initially handling the issue as GM, Ford or Chrysler would have done, Toyota took the drastic and almost unprecedented step to do themassive recall.  It would be akin to stopping their entire production line because a worker found a couple loose bolts in the drive train of one car.
    I’m nottrying to minimize the seriousness of the issue or the tragedies involved, but the gas pedal issue reflects Toyota’s commitment to quality rather than their lack of it.

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    #189114

    Severino
    Participant

    I would think that it probably did and does show up on some form of risk assessment (FMEA or DRBFM) and I’m sure there were probably boatloads of tests done.  The problem with any testing is that you generally are approximating field (or worst case) conditions so I’m not sure we can safely say that they knew about the issue.  Likewise, even when field issues started showing up it may be difficult to seperate legitimate complaints from noise.  There are probably countless people who get into accidents and say “my brakes didn’t work” or “my gas pedal got stuck”.  It all just points to the fact that no matter how good you are, you’ll never be perfect.
    On the other hand, it seems to me that the fix is too simple and came too fast.  How can they possibly have tested it thoroughly enough at this point?

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    #189117

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    Sorry, UofCS, this is not perception it is reality.  Now, whether Toy has any more or less quality issues than other automakers, may be the perception problem.

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    #189127

    Taylor
    Participant

    Jsev
    After watching some news clips, the explanation appears to be that the pedal is hanging up either on the interior carpet or floormat. This is a simple fulcrum point design causing a pivot hinge type stick. Quickly stomping the pedal will dislodge the stuck pedal. So assuming this is the actually cause all they have to do is move the pivot point or change the angle of the pedal assembly slightly, maybe even add a stop to the bottom side of the pedal to prevent specific angle of the hanging pedal. Given they have made such a quick fix and this is the first problem noted by Toyota, a previous revision was probably selected as the immediate fix.

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    #189129

    Craig
    Participant

    You might want to do some homework before stating this mumbo jumbo about unprecedented steps.  I read that Toyota said these same pedals were not a safety threat in 2007 and 2008.

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    #189134

    Severino
    Participant

    See this is where I am having trouble understanding what the true issue is.  I have heard the floormat report as well, but the following statement was published on the 2nd in Quality Digest:
    According to a Toyota statement, the problem was caused by “a friction device in the pedal designed to provide the proper “feel” by adding resistance and making the pedal steady and stable. The device includes a shoe that rubs against an adjoining surface during normal pedal operation. Due to the materials used, wear, and environmental conditions, these surfaces may, over time, begin to stick and release instead of operating smoothly. In some cases, friction could increase to a point that the pedal is slow to return to the idle position or, in rare cases, the pedal sticks, leaving the throttle partially open.”
    So now I am thoroughly confused.  Are there two (2) seperate recalls or is there just one (1)?

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    #189139

    MBBinWI
    Participant

    And, hence, my original post about the FMEA being ignored and good pro-active, preventative design not applied.  Had this come up in an FMEA, one might ask “should this occur, what actions might the customer try to apply and how can we eliminate the potentially severe consequence?”  The answer is simple – the customer is going to step on the brake.  Since this is an electronic system, should the brake be applied any signal from the throttle should immediately be cancelled.  Works for both the floormat issue and any mechanical problems.

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    #189142

    Reade
    Participant

    From what I’ve heard, safety advocates have suggested this fix for several years now – other mfgs include this accelerator override as a matter of course. For some reason, Toyota has resisted adding this seemingly no-brain feature.

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    #189144

    Taylor
    Participant

    Jsev, looks like they have multiple recalls now, some for floormats, some for the pedal friction device some for brake problems. in 2008-2009 Toyota had 3 recalls that affected 100k+ vehichles, reports now say 4.3 million cars will be repaired for the pedal. Interesting enough now it seems Toyota knew about the problem potential back in 2007. Legal steps maybe taken against some of Toyotas top management, or at least may be a possibility.  Getting interesting

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    #189161

    Scott1664
    Member

    The news goes from bad to worse as news emerges that models from the Prius range look set to be recalled due to braking issues.  It could not have happened at a worse time for Toyoya, particularly since most of the world’s media appear to be in the ‘witch hunt’. 

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    #189175

    hlhgxu
    Participant

    Things like this do not happen overnight. It was suspected that things were set in motion long ago. Volume creeped in as the top priority somewhere sometime ago and drove strategies and tactics around product design and development. All the issues so far appear to be design related, not mfg quality issues. It is hoped not the case, but the sliding momentum may not ebb overnight. Toyota will remain great, but it has already fallen from the previous venerable untouchable position.

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    #189186

    UoCS
    Member

    So if people think that Toyota has safety/quality problems substantially worse than the rest of the field as a result of the apocalyptic media reports and despite all data to the contrary, how is that NOT a perception problem? 
    I can’t think a single manufacturing company on the planet (let alone an auto manufacturer) that has shut down its entire production line AND initiated recalls of such a comprehensive scope to correct a problem of ANY magnitude, let alone one that seems to be as limited as this one.  The number of actual complaints and incidents is miniscule compared to the number of vehicles being recalled.  I doubt there’s a top ten auto manufacturer that doesn’t currently have an outstanding safety issue on par with Toyota’s.  But we don’t see them shutting down lines. 
    For some reason (cough cough Government Motors cough ahem cough), this issue got real big real fast.  But Toyota will come out better for it. 
    For the record, I don’t have a dog in the fight – I don’t currently nor have I ever owned a Toyota and I’ve never worked for Toyota (though I did work for a Tier II supplier).  But after some initial foot-dragging, Toyota stepped up bigger than anybody else would have.  And that’s something to be applauded.

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    #189196

    I also think Toyota will come out of this for the better because, as an ex-Audi 5000 owner, I still haven’t forgotten the shoddy way Audi treated its customers, and I never will.

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    #189204

    MrMHead
    Participant

    I was thinking the same thing – that this (all 3 “this” ‘s ) got media over-inflated.
    And what is Toyota to do but react in an equally inflated way.Yes – Perception is everything – it even outweighs the truth in too many cases.
    Just watch this coming election season with the corporate funding limits thrown out.But I still don’t buy that a sticking accelerator pedal can cause unintended acceleration. It can cause you to not slow down as intended, but not accelerate – unless it IS an electronics problem.

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    #189208

    Andrew Banks
    Participant

    “But I still don’t buy that a sticking accelerator
    pedal can cause unintended acceleration. It can
    cause you to not slow down as intended, but not
    accelerate – unless it IS an electronics problem.”That statement only holds true if you were holding
    at speed with the accelerator. If you were
    intentionally accelerating and then let off the
    pedal when you reached your intended speed, you
    would continue to accelerate if it “stuck”.It isn’t really a relevant issue, but to clear the
    air…

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    #189209

    MrMHead
    Participant

    Yes – right – I was thinking steady state.

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    #189219

    MrMHead
    Participant

    “Just as Toyota moves from one crisis, the Prius recall, it now can move to yet another: mounting complaints about electric power steering on 2009 and 2010 Corollas.”From USAToday.They have the media’s /public’s attention … now they are going to pay for it.”This time, it would look into possible power steering defects in the Corolla, the nation’s second best selling car last year with 874,000 sold.Toyota has received 83 complaints about power steering problems, 76 of which caused the car to veer right or left at speeds over 40 miles an hour, the News found. The reported defect has resulted in 10 accidents and six injuries. “I wonder which number they use as Defect to calculate their sigma? Do they see a shift if you take that definition to data from 10 years ago?(Just keeping it on SS Topic)

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    #189220

    Mikel
    Member

    You think Toyota wastes time to calculate sigma?

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    #189223

    Taylor
    Participant

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35278742/ns/business-autos/
    It seems they have been avoiding this issue for a while. Guess they thought it would just go away.

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