iSixSigma

TQM

This topic contains 31 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  Mike Carnell 14 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #37359

    lin
    Participant

    When did the tools and methodologies of TQM become officially known as Six Sigma?  Doesn’t six sigma let senior management off the hook by allowing them to delegate quality improvement rather than create customer focused organizations in which strategic and tactical actions are aligned throughout the organization as in a Baldrige environment?

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    #109798

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Bill,
    I grew up in a rural environment and one of the things you learn from older kids early on is that if you put a cigarrette in a frogs mouth they will suck on the smoke until they explode (well rounded education). Everytime I see one of these “In the beginning God created the heavens, earth and TQM” posts I start to feel like one of those frogs. It is NVA ignorance that only pales in the light of 360 reviews – but I can’t help myself.
    SS as a methodology has been around since 1986 and at the very least known well (outside of Motorola since 1995). Where have you been for the last 9 years? The underlying philosophy goes back to 1964 and Juran so it probably was not begat by TQM.
    As far as letting management off the hook – you need to do a little reading. We have had some pretty visible support from some CEO’s named Galvin, Bossidy and Welch. I could ask where you got the idea that we were letting them off the hook but I really could care less where you became so uninformed.
    Give Michael George a call and you two can tell the world how cool you are because you were around for TQM.
    Good luck.

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    #109806

    Bill Osburn
    Participant

    Of all the arrogant people I have met in my twenty years of leading quality organizations, you are the worst.  You have no knowledge of my background or the millions of dollars I saved employers and clients.  I know exactly what six sigma is.  I was one of the pioneers developing and delivering six sigma training and consulting since 1988.  I posed the question simply to instigate some thought and discussion so some of the people running around as Six Sigma experts would do a little reading and understand the foundations and lineage of their methodology.  You apparently don’t know what TQM is or anything about the Baldrige criteria and organizations that use it.  As far as the CEOs you mention, Garvin understands and lead Motorola to win the Baldrige Award.  The jury is still out on Bossidy.  Welch, made a lot of money and managed a lot of improvement, and but he never really got it and his personal life shows what he really is.  If you can’t see the foundation of Six Sigma in TQM than you know less about it than Hammer and Champy did and you really ought to do some reading before expounding your views.

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    #109809

    Dog Sxxt
    Participant

    Baldrige Award  is that great? A two times Baldrige winner lost more than 10 billions USD in last three years. Finally they have to hire Toyota lean Sensei to implement lean initiative.

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    #109815

    Adam L Bowden
    Participant

    I guess I’ll take some heat as well !!
    There are deployment leaders and consultants that I respect and some that I am cautious of.  The ones I respect have a well rounded background, made a difference with the businesses they supported, have a sence of humour and don’t respond on-line as if they have taken a posting “hook, line and sinker”. 
    Bill if this your first posting/reply to this site you will be making yourself a target of some unusual replies – beware !
    Mike – the frog thing – never tried it but it sounds alot like a Billy Bob stunt.
     
     

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    #109817

    RubberDude
    Member

    “Of all the arrogant people I have met in my twenty years of leading quality organizations, you are the worst.  You have no knowledge of my background or the millions of dollars I saved employers and clients.  I know exactly what six sigma is.  I was one of the pioneers developing and delivering six sigma training and consulting since 1988.”
    As Forrest Gump might say, “Arrogance is as arrogance does…..”

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    #109818

    Mikel
    Member

    Hey RD, it’s more like liar, liar, pants on fire.
    This guy is not a pioneer.

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    #109819

    Dog Sxxt
    Participant

    I have controlled myself in the past to use this word “arrogant” against a fella here. :-)

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    #109820

    RubberDude
    Member

    Mike,
    (From personal experience) If you knock the fire off the cigarette, the frog will sometimes mistake it for food and eat it.  Talk about heartburn!!  (Strange what you learn growing up in a “rural environment….”)
    My opinion (not necessarily directed at you) is that if you trace things back, all the “buzz word” methods and systems (TQM, Six Sigma, Lean, etc.) all can be traced back to some common ancestor, such as Juran, Deming, Shewart, Galileo, Caveman with stick…..  All of these ideologies have resulted from successful evolutions in business and manufacturing.  Though I do not want to start a “creation vs. evolution” debate, I subscribe to the “theory” that business (especially manufacturing) evolves with the best practices, improvements, and organizations surviving.  Otherwise, we would all be sitting around the campfire in loinclothes with rocks to knock apples out of trees and to knock rabbits in the head for our next meal.
    As you are one of us “country folk” Mike, I’m sure you will understand that it seems Bill is “a pot calling the kettle black.”
    Bill, you say you wanted to spur some debate on the TQM vs. Six Sigma subject.  Then you want to explode when someone calls your hand.  Sounds like you may be a “Dog” in “Bill” clothing… or one of the other regular posters that seem to feed on controversy.
    Just MY opinion.
    RubberDude – Certified Grand Master Holiday Inn Express Black Belt

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    #109821

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Bill Osburn,
    Wow Bill I seem to have upset you. Every time I run into one of you great deployers of TQM I get the same indignant response and the quote of all the dollars. If it was millions over the 20 years then to be honest with you that really isn’t that impressive.
    Another pioneer. I was at Motorola through the 80’s. Went through MMI where we had instructors that were all the consultants that worked with Bob Galvin and his staff (it is Galvin not Garvin – Garvin is from the book Disclosure) and checking the manuals I don’t see your name there. Seems odd that the pioneer was excluded.
    I am sure Larry Bossidy is concerned about you having the jury out on him. Welch’s personal life is exactly that and has nothing to do with a discussion of SS. You might want to review this self indulgent post for arrogance yourself.
    Good luck. We have been waiting a long time on this forum for you to show up and lead us to the promised land.

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    #109822

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Adam,
    It was actually a toad. Very bizarre and something you only need to see once.
    Regards

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    #109823

    Mikel
    Member

    It is worth noting that Galvin did not lead Motorola to the Baldridge award. It was more of a fluke. Rich Schroeder had worked with the Balderidge award at it’s inception and saw a unique void in the first year that allowed Motorola to jump in at the last minute and win it.
    The jury is not out on Bossidy or Welch, but I do agree that Jack showed poor judgement in his personal life.

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    #109824

    Adam L Bowden
    Participant

    Toad – OK :-)
    You’ll also find that seaguls do the same thing – an Alkaseltzer or any other rapidly foaming thing amongst a piece of food that is gobbled up by the greedy seagul results in the same thing – an exploing bird !
    Not that I have any first hand experience of this though ;>)
     
     
     

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    #109825

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    RubberDude,
    The rural environment is definately a different classroom. When you see some of this stuff you have to appreciate your spot on the food chain a little better.
    I don’t have a real problem with when or where SS came from. I have been accused of the caveman with the stick deployments from time to time. The thing that gets old is that there are a lot of these TQM guys that can’t seem to get past the idea that the market is asking for SS. There is a good Danny Devito line in a movie “Other Peoples Money” – something about an increasing share of a shrinking market. One day you’re a pioneer next minute you’re just resistance to change. 
    You would think if someone understood the concept of “Customer Focus” then arguing about where it came from, would recognize it is irrelevant. It it is exactly the same as TQM and they are the great deployers of TQM then call it SS (because that is what the customer wants)and keep getting paid for delivering those millions of dollars for the next twenty years. Unfortunately part of the reason TQM lost ground had nothing to do with TQM. It was the great deployers who turned it into a training class and success was measured in number of people trained rather than benefit to the business. It doesn’t take long for a C level guy to figure out there isn’t any ROI.
    Allied Automotive had seen TQM go through 4 iterations before SS. It was just the next step. DMAIC leads to DFSS and someday there will be something else (with all the focus on certification rather than results it will lose some of its shine just like TQM did).
    Just my opinion.
    Regards
     

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    #109826

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Adam,
    Blowing up seaguls with Alkaseltzer? I’m guessing you are going to get a couple of phone calls like I have received asking you how you could put up such a disgusting post.
    That does sound pretty first hand.
    I met Cary and a bunch of the guys from Omaha in Vegas last week. You should have joined in.
    Take care.

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    #109827

    RubberDude
    Member

    Adam and Mike,
    PETA just called.  They want to talk to the three of us – re: smoking toads, exploding seagulls, and cow tipping……..
    OOPS…. did I let that out?

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    #109828

    1
    Participant

    I’m glad to have wandered into this thread.   It makes me feel A LOT better about the dead cat cranial adornment.   Even with Muffin placed at a rakishly jaunty and sophisticated tilt, it’s still comparatively civilized compared to toading or gulling.   1%

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    #109829

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    RubberDude,
    At least nobody called about moving the outhouses so the hole was infront of the door. Big surprise for some in the middle of the night.
    Do you realize how strange this looks to people who grew up in the city?
    Regards

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    #109830

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    1%,
    I would be more concerned if you had been wearing it and nobody has said anything.
    Regards

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    #109831

    Carnell likes to see his name
    Participant

    Carnell – ae you trying to emulate Darth with the rapid fire posting’s?  If so, it’s working.

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    #109833

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Never thought about it. Obviously you have.If this is serious issue for you go back though the posts you will find groups of post for the last couple years.
    There are worse people I could choose to emulate.
    Nice talking to you. Good luck.

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    #109834

    Flounder
    Participant

    Seems like some posters are constantly trying to establish their “identity” with the forum? There appears to be some underlying correlation(s) that these posters are trying to prove? Possibly:
     
    1. Having worked at, with, near, the SS pioneers = SS RESPECT
     
    2. Higher Education (BA/BS, MBA, PhD,) = SS KNOWLEDGE
     
    3. SSBB Certification = INSTANT CREDIBILITY and SUCCESS
     
    4. SS Consultant Profession = MULTIPLE SUCCESSES at MULTIPLE COMPANIES (therefore, I know what YOUR company needs to do)
     
    5. Repeat Posters (many times & many threads) = WORLDLINESS
     If any one of us were truly respected, knowledgeable, credible, successful, and worldly, would we be spending our time here? Not likely. Put it in perspective. Arrogance? Possibly. Just little fish in the big, SS ocean? Likely.

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    #109835

    Adam L Bowden
    Participant

    Could not make the Vegas conference – I had a Strategy planning session going here

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    #109840

    Darth
    Participant

    One might ask when did the tools of statistics become TQM.  When did PDCA become TQM?  Tools is tools.  DMAIC is not much different than PDCA or the scientific method.  What’s the difference what we call it as long as an organization seeks to apply the methods and tools to improve.  Your second statement, while intended to create discussion, is way off base.  It is a shame that you did not get to attend the ISSSP Symposium this week.  There was a great deal of discussion about senior leadership commitment, linkage to strategic direction with the end goal of delighting the customer.  I believe most of the presentations will be posted on the ISSSP site on Monday.  Try to get access to some of them.  Also, Carnell is a pretty good guy with some good experience and knowledge.  He must have eaten a bad toad the night before and his tummy hurt.

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    #109842

    Jack Welch
    Participant

    Flounder,
     
    Ever consider that some of us might be well educated and experienced and like to give back a little in an effort to advance our chosen field?    Some of the consultants like Mike are the real deal.   But, then again, when giving back with altruistic intent, if some dufus begins to sling mud around it’s fun to knead and wad it into fun shapes and poke him or her with it.    You have to admit the forum has some contributors and some whiners and squealers.    Post with insight and humor and you might change your mind about who contributes.  See, even your chosen ID has humor in it, Flounder, that’s a cute little self-effacing bottom dweller and shows that while you are willing to step up and make a point that you don’t take yourself so seriously that you can’t engage in a little good natured give and take.
     Jack Welch   

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    #109844

    Flounder
    Participant

    Jack,
     
    Great to hear from you! Thank you for the very insightful response (I would expect nothing less considering your proven, SS involvement and leadership). Please don’t take to heart Mr. Osborn’s inference that your credibility is somewhat diminished due to “activities” in your personal life! Although, with the severance package you received, you might have hired a more ruthless attorney?
     
    You are absolutely correct in that there are many posters possessing a wealth of knowledge and experience (and your comments about humor are also right on the money)! Transferring that knowledge and experience to the “minnows” in this SS ocean is where the true secret of mentoring takes place. Ironic, when the word mentor is used, the context implies a positive learning transfer. How is it then, with so many “well educated and experienced” posters the message is often clouded with insults and credibility challenges? Facts. Now there’s the lead by example style we need to demonstrate!
     
    Jack, thanks again for the dialog! Enjoy your retirement!  Flounder

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    #109849

    mauro
    Participant

    This is a very funny thread. Very informative if you learn how to filter the noise, people need to realize that when you peel off all the bull xxxx there is plenty of substance behind the message. The other side of the coin is that I read this forum for the enterteinment value it provides there is some Six Sigma Wackos out there !!!!!!!!!!
    Mauro

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    #109856

    Adam Bowden
    Participant

    Mauro,
    Rather than Six Sigma  – it’s really Sick Sigma – it’s a sickness we all get after being in the industry for years.
    I totally agree with your view – some straight stuff, some obnoxious folks posting replies just looking to become the next target (like Bob today) and the rest of us Wackos – trading humour.
    Regards,
    Adam

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    #109881

    RubberDude
    Member

    Yeah, one of the things I miss about living in the country….. can’t “mark my territory” when I step out in the back yard…….

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    #109883

    Jack Welch
    Participant

    Flounder,
     
    “How is it then, with so many “well educated and experienced” posters the message is often clouded with insults and credibility challenges? Facts. Now there’s the lead by example style we need to demonstrate!”
     
    I agree with you 100%.   A good place to learn is a much better place to learn when posters and respondents respect each other’s right to express and share perspective, opinion and knowledge.
     
    I also agree with you regarding exercising rigorous attorney selection.
     Jack Welch

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    #109891

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    RubberDude,
    That freedom disappears pretty quickly in the city.
    I have been in Houston since last December. When your lifestyle is a little different than most, like long periods of travel and late hours for phone calls to other parts of the world and then throw the Harley in and there are some creative explanations of your lifestyle.
    At least in the rural environment they mind their own business.
    Regards

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    #109907

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Darth,
    Nice post. I like the first two sentences. Great logic.
    No toads for dinner. I did have one of those “I told you that happens when you post before noon” discussions. (dramatic pause) Again.
    Regards.

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