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Triz and SS

Six Sigma – iSixSigma Forums Old Forums General Triz and SS

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  • #50411

    Clive
    Participant

    Has anyone experience of using Triz as part of SS and Lean within a service based industry? Does it work well? Are solutions noteably different/better than using the standard less structured techniques?
     

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    #173294

    Ron
    Member

    When at Allied Signal Aerospace we introduced TRIZ as a tool in the DFSS toolkit. It has some meriot in that it gives a methodology to engieers to think differently regarding innovation.
    However, I did not see much application by the engieers outside of the classroom.

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    #173309

    Brandon
    Participant

    It has not gotten widespread acceptance or usage since it is best applied in conjunction with mostly illegal substances…has to do with creative thinking capabilities….to a point.

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    #173315

    Nance
    Participant

    I don’t get the reference to illegal substances–can you explain?

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    #173324

    Evil
    Participant

    Yes…lots of experience doing applying TRIZ in SS/Lean projects in all industries…
    In Define: use IFR and 9 Screens(are you solving the right problem ?)
    In Improve: use all the TRIZ tools to come up with innovative ways to solve the problem now that you know the causal relationship (y=f(x)).If you haven’t had much success, then your original training may not have been adequate (a 2 hour overview is not enough).e

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    #173326

    Brandon
    Participant

    Just being silly…gotta be high to come up with the Triz solutions.

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    #173327

    Alejandro Campos
    Participant

    It is not easy to successfully apply TRIZ in a 6S project when people have no experience in the methodology. The main challenge is to be able to translate the problem into contradictions that make sense and are focused on the real root cause of the problem. However, done right, this procedure can produce very impressive results.
    In my experience, the main application of TRIZ in a 6S project is to help out of the box thinking and producing “beyond the entitlement” results. It is very common to see a 6S project focusing on optimizing a response using a set of variables (via DOEs, ANOVA, etc…) and then finidng out that there was an even better solution by just getting rid of the factors causing variation at all.

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    #173348

    Clive
    Participant

    Thanks for the replies. I’ve not had training yet and I’m trying to persuade my manager that it’s the right thing to do.
    The training I’ve seen in the UK is from “Oxford Creativity”. Has anyone had experience with these?

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    #173349

    k
    Participant

    Yes , I would agree . SS and TRIZ complement each other well – the former is systematic in approach while the latter is creative thinking – So once you have the data analysis ready you can use TRIZ for problem solving and improvements

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    #173357

    Houston Lean Six Sigma
    Participant

    Clive,
    Yes, we have had quite a lot of experience using TRIZ which we have applied mainly in Design-For space – but it can and does get applied in MAIC-space in Improve and also Define.  As mentioned in an earlier post, TRIZ requires a certain way of thinking which probably only covers about 1/4 of the population – so it is not for everyone.  We expose BBs to TRIZ through classroom/case study.  For those who will use it regularly, then get them accustomed to using software that uses the concepts and links to databases (example: Invention-Machine.com) – this really speeds the process but can leave many floundering.  Because it requires the ‘certain way of thinking’  TRIZ is somewhat underutilized – software costs don’t help either.  For training, suggest searching – there are LOTS of vendors more than willing to sell you their spin.  There is also quite a bit of info out there – Good luck!

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    #173378

    Larry
    Participant

    TRIZ complements CPI programs because it focuses on finding innovative new solutions rather than fixing problems inherent in a existing process.  I have found TRIZ to be especially useful for new product development teams and I operational environments.  It can also be very helpful in just about every situation to increase velocity and streamline innovation/problem solving. 
    Besides 6S applications, I understand that the Goldratt Institute is looking into applications of TRIZ with Theory of Constraints to complement its critical thinking processes.
    BMG University offers a 4 day course on TRIZ if you are interested….

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    #173387

    Ellen Domb
    Participant

    Clive asked about training in the UK.   I’m good friends with Karen Gadd, Oxford Creativity and Darrell Mann, Systematic Innovation, and I have co-taught programs with both of them.  They are the 2 top TRIZ training organizations in the UK.   Both have excellent programs, cover services as well as products (which is what started off this thread) and are very customer-oriented; that is, they teach TRIZ so that people can use it for real problem solving, not TRIZ as an academic exercise.   Both have various levels of class–my recommendation is to take the beginner class, then do some real projects for a few months, then take the next level class, etc.  

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    #173389

    Chugh
    Participant

    Hi,
    Can you please provide me more detail about TRIZ.
    I know Six sigma terminologies like DMAIC & other DFSS..
    whats the difference in TRIZ & others…
    Rgds,
    Manish,
    India

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    #173391

    Clive
    Participant

    Thank you for this information.
    Now I’ve just the job of persuading my manager.

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    #173446

    Michael Schlueter
    Participant

    Hi Clive,
    Triz was derived from studying patents and technology. However, TRIZ-concepts have more to do with the way we think, the way we recognize of perceive situations and what we assume to be possible or impossible.
    In this respect TRIZ is (quite) independent from the special subject to be studied or improved.
    It also means that effectiveness, how good it works, is coupled to a large extent to the people who use it. Many replies to your post point into this direction.
    You may want to have a look at my reply to a measurement problem for tolerances https://www.isixsigma.com/forum/showmessage.asp?messageID=143072.
    Assume that you encounter a situation in service industries, which require measurement, but measurement is difficult or not reliable, any of the stimuli mentioned can lead you to a better solution to the initial measurement problem in a service situation.
    In a nutshell you can perceive TRIZ as guided brainstorming, coupled with analytical power and known (generic) routes to the exit. Interpretation, transfer, what these generic concepts mean to your situation is up to your ability. And this is where many people struggle, hesitate or even resist.
    Another example is TRIZ’ concept of ideality: the ideal service is the (almost) absent or disappeared service, which preserves all the services useful results (and may add even more) AND costs (almost) nothing AND delivers (almost) no harmful results.
    A clear TRIZ direction, which you can back-up with examples of service trends from real-life. But, just imagine the disputes you can start within the service groups, the unions and so on. Assume, your service becomes more ideal according to this definition. Does it mean some peoples lose their jobs? Yes and no, may be: they could stop doing (past) inefficient work AND could be assigned to more useful tasks. This is where TRIZ and good Management do meet, hopefully as a friendly alliance. In the end the service group may even grow, but delivers much more useful services at less cost and with much less trouble: it became more ideal.
    Anyway, TRIZ is fun, it’s rewarding and fascinating, if it fits your way of thinking and acting.
    I hesitate nowadays to say “TRIZ leads you to better solutions”. It can, but it needn’t. E.g. just a phone call to the right person at the right time can be it, or just the right data analysis on high-quality data. It is necessary to involve the receiver of the solution one way or the other for acceptance and for further guidance. This will prevent you from delivering what may be perceived as (impractical) service fiction.
    Kind regards, Michael Schlueter

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    #173484

    Allie
    Participant

    TRIZ is not creative thinking.  It is a science.  Just look at the TRIZ Journal.  There’s a whole history of research/development and many tools — some of which guide creativity, but it is way more than that.

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    #173585

    GB
    Participant

    Same “alma mater”.
    Same observations…
    I found Triz antithetical to creative, out of the box solutions.   It worked for the Soviets and their rigid, authoritarian culture, but not so much here…
    Triz can be a successful problem solving methodology, but way to oauthoritarian, IMO.   Lean, TQL/TQM and 6S provide workable, culture-“friendlier” alternatives to continuous improvement, change management and OD.
     

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    #173617

    Clive
    Participant

    I agree that the other methods are great for showing you your problem and proving your solution but not so good at coming up with the solution.
    I’m hoping that Triz will give me another option to designing a solution.

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    #173621

    GB
    Participant

    Adding Triz to your toolbox couldn’t hurt, but be aware that it is highly-regimented and may (I repeat, MAY), end up stifling creative solutons.
    Your statement about the other methodologies not being good for solutions is utter rubbish.   Lean, 6S, TQ, etc…can help you make great strides in problem solving, including dev of solutions, if you put the work into it…If you input “X” and expect a “Y” to pop out the other end without any effort on your part, then you need to recalibrate your expectations.   Many flock to Triz, because a basic solution can “pop” out of the other end, but in my experience, it usually is sub-optimal and about as creative as the architecture and design found in it’s region of origin…i.e. basic grey.

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    #173624

    Clive
    Participant

    I didn’t say not good I said not so good that’s a big difference. Reading and undertstanding what people say before starting to rant is a good idea.
    I’ve seen great results come out of Lean and Six Sigma projects and I’ve also seen the same old same old as well. Sometime you need something to create the spark or when your conflicty are too wide apart for a normal solution.

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